Posts Tagged ‘man and dinosaur interaction’

Despite Coelacanth Does the Evolutionary Dogma Re Man and Dinosaur Remain Unshaken?
Or, Do Those Dogon Antique Dinosaurs of West Africa Prove Science is Myth-Staken

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 13 2013


Photo:Antique Dogon People’s Sculpture at the Metropolitan Museum of Art;Details and ID comparisons below.

The coelacanth is a species of fish which had been thought by evolutionists to have evolved 400 million years ago (before the dinosaurs) and to have become extinct 80 million years ago. That was until living specimens began to be found in 1938.

Question; what percentage wrong were evolutionary scientists about Coelacanth? I mean if you believed that they were a magical fish that would take you direct to Atlantis-on their backs if you said the secret word, you would be wrong- but really not that much more wrong than evolutionists had been. They believed up until 1938 that coelacanth walked on the sea bed using its two pairs of double fins, and that it represented a transitional form between land and sea creatures.

Shockingly for some, the living coelacanths discovered then and since look just like their fossils. Thus, evolutionists who discovered that they were off 80 million years in terms of extinction had to face the prospect of also being off 400 million years in terms of evolution. In 1938 it became known that there were no coelacanth experts but in a way one could understand their mistake; the coelocanth is all pre-historicky looking.



Similarly, there are no dinosaur experts either. No one really knows what they looked like. Many if not most ideas about them have already been proved wrong or have experienced “turbulence”. Species and types merge and disappear or are it almost seems randomly moved over to another tree or up and down said evolutionary tree.

Are they warm blooded or cold blooded? Covered with feathers? Last year science suggested that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by 33% to 50%. A number of species of dinosaurs completely disappeared last year when it was decided that some individuals were merely juvenile versions of another type of dinosaur.

Paleontologists are famous for naming essentially the same dinosaur found in various locales and respective continents the ME-o-saurus (“ME” being the name of each discoverer). Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago but I’m afraid that the historical data tells us otherwise. We’ll take a quick peek at a few artifacts from West Africa (some previously seen here) to see if its credible to believe that man and dinosaur never coexisted.

The Dogon Peoples

“The Bandiagara Cliffs The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of the country of Mali, in the West of the Continent of Africa, south of the Niger bend, near the city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. The population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000[1] The Dogon are best known for their religious traditions, their mask dances, wooden sculpture and their architecture…….


The principal Dogon area is bisected by the Bandiagara Escarpment, a sandstone cliff of up to 500m (1,640 ft) high, stretching about 150 km (90 miles). To the southeast of the cliff, the sandy Séno-Gondo Plains are found, and northwest of the cliff are the Bandiagara Highlands. Historically, Dogon villages were established in the Bandiagara area in consequence of the Dogon people’s collective refusal to convert to Islam a thousand years ago.

Dogon insecurity in the face of these historical pressures caused them to locate their villages in defensible positions along the walls of the escarpment. The other factor influencing their choice of settlement location is water. The Niger River is nearby and in the sandstone rock, a rivulet runs at the foot of the cliff at the lowest point of the area during the wet season.


Dogon art is primarily sculpture. Dogon art revolves around religious values, ideals, and freedoms (Laude, 19). Dogon sculptures are not made to be seen publicly, and are commonly hidden from the public eye within the houses of families, sanctuaries, or kept with the Hogon (Laude, 20). The importance of secrecy is due to the symbolic meaning behind the pieces and the process by which they are made.

Themes found throughout Dogon sculpture consist of figures with raised arms, superimposed bearded figures, horsemen, stools with caryatids, women with children, figures covering their faces, women grinding pearl millet, women bearing vessels on their heads, donkeys bearing cups, musicians, dogs, quadruped-shaped troughs or benches, figures bending from the waist, mirror-images, aproned figures, and standing figures (Laude, 46-52). Signs of other contacts and origins are evident in Dogon art. The Dogon people were not the first inhabitants of the cliffs of Bandiagara. Influence from Tellem art is evident in Dogon art because of its rectilinear designs (Laude, 24).”..Wikipedia

Dogon Zoomorphic Head


Time Period’ 1800-early 1900’s. The Dogon Peoples. Mali Dimensions:
H x W: 8 x 1in. (20.3 x 2.5cm) Wood and Iron
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Bryce Holcombe Collection of African Decorative Art, Bequest of Bryce Holcombe, 1984

The item is described as “zoomorphic. It is an animal or animal like, but the museum is not able or ready to make an identification. They may consider it to be a mythological creature. In our view it closely matches the current view of the appearance of the crested, duck billed dinosaurs-the lambeosaurines although few if any hadrosaur fossils have been found in West Africa.

Here we show the sculpture in comparison to one of the crested hadrosaurine dinosaurs, hypacrosaurus.


Hypacrosaurus was a genus of duckbill dinosaur similar in appearance to Corythosaurus. Like Corythosaurus, it had a tall, hollow rounded crest, although not as large and straight. It is known from the remains of two species that spanned 75 to 67 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of Alberta, Canada, and Montana, USA, and is the latest hollow-crested duckbill known from good remains in North America. It was an obscure genus until the description of nests, eggs, and hatchlings belonging to H. stebingeri in the 1990s.

It is not our intent to claim that this traditional Dogon sculpture represents hypacrosaurus, merely that it likely represents one of the closely related lambeosauine, crested, duckbilled dinosaurs. The specific type may have yet to be discovered. There are alternate suggestions for this piece of sculpture including a crested duck but we think that it very closely resembles a dinosaur that was thought by science to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

500 Year Old Dogon Bipedal Statue


The Dogon peoples have become somewhat of the darlings of individuals around the world who believe that ancient technological prowess which is an enigma can best be explained by the belief that in the distant past the earth was visited by advanced aliens who imparted their knowledge to humans in some fashion. There are real archaeological anomalies out there and if one doesn’t have a Genesis/biblical system of belief it easy to see why many would find the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain them insufficient and why they would construct alternate theories do deal with them.

“Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938 and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen’s future publications.

They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or ‘star of the Sigui’, has two companion stars, p tolo (the Digitaria star), and mm ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following

remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.

In 1976 Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery arguing that the Dogon’s system reveals precise knowledge of cosmological facts only known by the development of modern astronomy, since they appear to know, from Griaule and Dieterlen’s account, that Sirius was part of a binary star system, whose second star, Sirius B, a white dwarf, was however completely invisible to the human eye, (just as Digitaria is the smallest grain[clarification needed] known to the Dogon), and that it took 50 years to complete its orbit. The existence of Sirius B had only been inferred to exist through mathematical calculations undertaken by Friedrich Bessel in 1844. Temple then argued that the Dogon’s information, if traced back to ancient Egyptian sources and myth, indicated an extraterrestrial transmission of knowledge of the stars. Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen had ever made such bold claims about a putative esoteric source for the Dogon’s knowledge.”…Wikipedia


I mention the foregoing because this little 500 year old Dogon metal statue has been swept up into this alien story by calling it a Nommo, a kind of fish/amphibian god slash alien.

Its reptilian, its walking in a bipedal fashion and its strange looking. For purposes of the alien scenario it fits in nicely-if you ignore the fact that it looks quite a bit like a terrestrial animal we know well.

From the Genesis creation account perspective, however it clearly fits as a creation of the first six days; a bipedal dinosaur.

Here we compare it with a more or less random, carnivorous, three toed, bipedal dinosaur.

Which is it”, then an alien fish/amphibian god representative –or an indication that the Dogon peoples of West Africa interacted with, carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs within the last 1,000 years?

Mystery of the African (Dogon) Ornithopod Dinosaur

Around the time Sir Richard Owen had coined the term “dinosaur” to describe the giant “terrible lizards” whose bones were then being discovered in the mid-1800′s the Dogon tribe was creating art which appears to represent one of them riding one of those creatures.



Features of the “dinosaur” are accurate enough for a species identification to be made. An Ornithopod dinosaur, in our humble opinion.

The birdlike head with strong jawline, “duck bill”; and the knees appearing to bend in the “wrong” direction (opposite ours) separate this dinosaur from the sauropods.

In actuality the front legs do bend in the opposite direction, but it the high ankles of these creatures which make it appear that the rear legs also bend in the forward direction.

Examples of the Ornithopod dinosaur depicted include; iguanadon and hadrosaurus as shown below. Note also the accuracy of this African depiction compared to early “scientific” depictions.

It’s interesting to note that the gallery showing this piece claims that this is dinosaur, from the mid-1800′s and that they can authenticate its age and origin. If you’ve got a spare $1,200, pick it up and send us a photo of the other side of the piece.

Antique African bronze dinosaur



Dogon Tribe African bronze vessel in the form of dinosaur, with the lid, on the lid a seated human figurine, the body of the vessel with linear scarifications, long tail. Covered in a light earthen patina. Antique African artifact 1800′s AD. This antique African artifact comes with a certificate of authenticity and time period.
All ancient artifacts and antiques, ancient jewelry, ancient statues, etc. are guaranteed to be authentic and from the time period stated.

All artifacts come with a certificate of authenticity and time period. We specialize in antiquities located in our online Treasures of the World gallery at World Wide Store.

View our ancient artifacts list view or aisles for other extraordinary artifacts. Also see other categories, Ancient artifacts Byzantine, Celtic, Cycladic, Egyptian, European, Greek, Holy land, Luristan, Mesopotamian, Persian, Roman, Syrian, African artifacts, Maya, and Prehistoric artifacts.

Many artifacts are rare and date back as far as 3000 BC. All artifacts are guaranteed to be authentic. Artifacts are one of a kind. If the item you want has already sold we may have something similar available.
Antique African bronze dinosaur
1800′s AD
measures: 14″ x 7 1/2″ $1200.00…..Treasures of the World”

Photo:Artifact with Iguanadon middle, and hadrosaurus, bottom.


When we discovered this artifact online, it had already been purchased by our friend Vance Nelson at CreationTruthMinistries.org. He currently has it in his possession and this new photo is Copyright CreationTruthMinistries.

Looking at the piece again we were struck by how detailed it actually is; the “skin” of the “dinosaur” could also provide evidence that the artist actually saw a living version of the creature at a time scientific depictions of dinosaurs were still “primitive”.

Note the diamond shapes that cover the entire creature. Does that feature match up with any modern dinosaur discoveries we wondered; remembering that we thought the artifact represented an Ornithopod dinosaur.

Hadrosaur Skeleton Found

“The hadrosaur skeleton itself which includes parts of the hip, a femur, part of a foot, and a 10-foot section of tail that is missing its tip is already an uncommon discovery because it is the most complete dinosaur skeleton, and the first crested hadrosaur, ever discovered in southern Utah’s Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, says Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist with the monument. Geology and paleontology were part of the reason this monument was established, Titus says.

This specimen is also special because many of the skin impressions were found in direct contact with the bone, so scientists can place with confidence the different scale patterns on particular parts of the dinosaur, Titus adds.

The specimen has two distinct skin patterns, says David Gillette, the dig’s lead scientist and a curator of the Museum of Northern Arizona. A diamond-shaped pattern was found near the tail’s tip, he says, while a more irregular and polygonal pattern was uncovered closer to the hip”….Geotimes, oct 2001

Other West African Dinosaurs and Supposedly Extinct Animals

The West African area seems to have been a hotbed of ancient dinosaur activity. In addition to the Dogon of Mali, items from the nearby Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Niger, the Sudan, Chad and Cameroon, most of which are not included in this article abound.

Not Just Dinosaurs; the Ancient West African’s Clearly “Interacted” with “Extinct” Elephant: Did Platybelodon Become Extinct Between 5 Million and 25 Million Years Ago-Or Did He Live in the Recent Past?


If dogs had become extinct 400 to 500 years ago, evolutionists probably would have created an elaborate family tree and asserted that the various types had evolved over millions of years. Maybe the Pekinese, Chihuahuas and Boxers would have been selected as the older more primitive dogs who would later, in this evolutionary scenario have evolved into the physically larger more gracile forms such as the Collie, the German Shepherd, the Greyhound and the Whippet. No doubt the wolf and other dog breeds would be in the middle branches somewhere.

Evolutionists see the animal tree as essentially a vertical one where millions of years are needed for creatures to evolve from one form to another. Creationists believe that the relationship between animals is horizontal with all forms living at the same time and/or genetic variations of the same type separated by time or distance. The polar bear and the brown bear are still bears, who exhibit their built in genetic variation.

The elephant as we know him is supposed to have evolved from more primitive forms of the order Proboscidea. One such “primitive” alleged elephant was Platybelodon, supposedly extinct before the evolution of modern man. But hey, why is one perched on top of this ancient Sudanese hat? (Fossils of platybelodon have also been found on the continent of Africa.)

“Platybelodon (“flat-tusk”) was a genus of large herbivorous mammal related to the elephant (order Proboscidea).
It lived during the Miocene Epoch, about 15-4 million years ago. Although it thrived during its time, it did not survive past the Miocene and is now extinct.

Some have speculated that it became too specialized and was unable to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Platybelodon was previously believed to have fed in the swampy areas of grassy savannas using its teeth to shovel up aquatic and semi-aquatic vegetation.

Photo, right: The animal displayed on the top of the Antique Sudanese “Hat” is compared with modern depictions of platybelodon.


However, wear patterns on the teeth suggest that it used its lower tusks to strip bark from trees. Platybelodon was very similar to the Amebelodon, another gomphothere species.

Another possibility is that it used its shovel-tusks to dig for water in dry seasons.
Due to the shape of the two lower teeth, which are worn by many gomphothere species (such as Platybelodon and Amebelodon) they are popularly known as shovel tuskers”….Wikipedia

Habitat
Platybelodon lived in wet parts of prairies and ate soft plants (including water plants).
When Platybelodon Lived
This prehistoric elephant lived during the middle to late Miocene (roughly 25 million years ago).
Classification
Platybelodon was an early mammal. Class Mammalia (mammals), Order Proboscidea, Suborder Elephantoidea (elephants), Family Gomphothere (closely related to Amebelodon), Genus Platybelodon.
Fossils
Fossils of Platybelodon have been found in North America, eastern Europe, Africa, and northwestern China (these animals probably crossed via the Siberian land bridge between the continents of Asia and North America)”….Enchanted Learning.com

  

Baule Ancient Dinosaur from Ivory Coast? BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Price Realized $7,500
Estimate
$3,000 – $4,000
Sale Information
Sale 2661
Arts of Africa, Oceania and the Americas including Property from the Estate of Ernst Beyeler
10 May 2012
New York, Rockefeller Plaza
TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York, The African-American Institute
1978
Lot Description
BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Length: 44½ in. (113 cm.)

This item is compared to a mid-sized quadrupedal dinosaur. This piece has four legs so it is not a bird. Morphologically it is quite similar to this dinosaur depiction. It does not appear to be a lizard.


“The Baule belong to the Akan peoples who inhabit Ghana and Côte d’Ivoire. Three hundred years ago the Baule people migrated westward from Ghana when the Asante rose to power. The tale of how they broke away from the Asante has been preserved in their oral traditions.

During the Asante rise to power the Baule queen, Aura Poku, was in direct competition with the current Asante king. When the Asante prevailed, the queen led her people away to the land they now occupy. The male descendant of Aura Poku still lives in the palace she established and is honored by the Baule as their nominal king.” Arts of Africa

  

An Assembly of Various Allegedly “Extinct for Millions of Years Creatures” In Traditional Upper Volta Sculpture


TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York
The African-American Institute
1978
26 x 21 cm

This antique sculpture from the Upper Volta region (now called Burkina Faso) appears to represent several creatures thought to have been extinct for millions of years. The quadrupeds have horned faces as do the ceratopsian dinosaurs and the bipedal, non human, winged creatures appear to represent several types of pterosaurs.

Both pterosaurs and birds have keeled breastbones but it is especially noticeable on this antique sculpture.

Conclusion:

These are just a few examples of art and artifacts from Western Africa which indicate a familiarity with various types of extinct dinosaurs and other creatures. Can some of them be explained away?

Perhaps.

Can all of them be explained away as mythological or fake? I don’t think so. We’ve encountered hundreds of examples of ancient or antique artifacts that we think prove that just as science was wrong with respect to the ceolocanth by 80,000,000 years (with no evolutionary changes in 400,000,000 evolution years) it is certainly possible that they are also wrong about the evolution of and extinction of the dinosaurs.

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus? Plus; Remarkarble Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 24 2012

Photo: How to Train Your Dragon? Viking vs Brachiosaurus.

“Look at Behemoth, which I made just as I made you; it eats grass like an ox. Its strength is in its loins, and its power in the muscles of its belly. It makes its tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are knit together. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron. It is the first of the great acts of God— only its Maker can approach it with the sword.” …Job 40 15-19 New Revised Standard Version

“Megasthenes writeth, that there be serpents among the Indians to that bignesse, that they are able to swallow stags or buls all whole….Attilius Regulaus, generall under the Romanes, during the warres against the Carthaginians, assailed a Serpent neere the river Bagrada, which caried in length 120 foot…” Book 8 Pliny’s Natural History

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus?
by Chris Parker
Copyright 2012

Photo: From the latter part of this article; fully explained below.


Dragons; sometimes huge, reptilian, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – are reported not as mythological but as real in every ancient culture on every continent. Of course, those creatures that we now call dinosaurs were also sometimes huge, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – that lived on every continent. (Technically pterosaurs are not considered dinosaurs).

Among those ancient cultures who described living dragons were the Norse and that subset of the Norse culture the Vikings.

The Vikings

Painting: Just to be clear; the “dragon” on the ship’s prow is not our subject today.


“The Vikings (from Old Norse víkingr) were the Norse explorers, warriors, merchants, and pirates who raided, traded, explored and settled in wide areas of Europe, Asia and the North Atlantic islands from the late 8th to the mid-11th century.

These Norsemen used their famed longships to travel as far east as Constantinople and the Volga River in Russia, and as far west as Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland, and as far south as Nekor. This period of Viking expansion – known as the Viking Age – forms a major part of the medieval history of Scandinavia, Great Britain, Ireland and the rest of Medieval Europe.

Popular conceptions of the Vikings often differ from the complex picture that emerges from archaeology and written sources. A romanticised picture of Vikings as Germanic noble savages began to take root in the 18th century, and this developed and became widely propagated during the 19th-century Viking revival.

The received views of the Vikings as violent brutes or intrepid adventurers owe much to the modern Viking myth which had taken shape by the early 20th century. Current popular representations are typically highly clichéd, presenting the Vikings as familiar caricatures.

    The Norse Dragon Tradition

Dragons are common in Norse lore; we associate viking raiders with dragon headed ships. However this is slightly misleading because Norse lore made no distinction between dragons per se and serpents. A serpent was simply a dragon without wings.

In Nordic mythology, the figure of the dragon was often used as symbol of material greed, and harbringers of destruction, that is to say: they acquired a clearly negative symbolism, (unlike some aspects of the dragon in Eastern mythology). Clearly this makes them excellent figureheads for Viking raiders!

One of the most important Norse dragons is Nithhogr. This creature lives at the base of the world tree Yggdrasil and gnaws at the roots, attempting to destroy it. Nithhogr also devours the corpses of the dead. The world serpent Jormungandr would also be classed as a dragon in Norse lore. Jormungandr – the Midgard serpent – lives in the waters curled in a circle round the world and biting his own tail.

Another well-known Norse dragon tale is that of Fafnir, who was turned into a dragon by his greed and who was slain by Siegfried. The hero Scandanavian hero Beowulf also fought dragons. Some have classed grendel and his mother as dragons, however they are more usually considered to be some form of troll”.Dragonrama

An Antique Viking Diplodocus?


This “ANCIENT VIKING BRONZE ZOOMORPHIC PENDANT,RARE” is actually a pendant currently on sale on Ebay. It is a bronze, zoomorphic depiction of a long necked, quadruped with curled tail used as a connection for the wire to be passed through for a wearer. The item actually has “bumpy skin” in the manner of the sauropod dinosaurs we believe it represents.

Not much information is provided about the object other than that which has been provided above. The location of the seller is Latvia, the seller is gint5812 who has a 100% approval rating. I’m not providing a link because the item has been sold and I have no way of knowing how long the link will be active.

The item is a “pendant”, approximately 3 inches from tail to nose. Is the item a real, antique Viking pendant? we can’t prove it is, however the surest way to have an object declared a fake is to present it in the shape of a dinosaur.

We have additional views of the object as well as comparisons with modern depictions of a certain type of sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs are probably the most easily recognized type of dinosaur. They are large, long necked with a stocky body and a long tail. However, there were differences among the various types of sauropods and we believe that rather than just generally identifying this ancient depiction as a sauropod I believe we can go even further and identify the specific type of sauropod dinosaur that is being represented.

Of course, sauropod dinosaurs supposedly became extinct over 65 million years ago.


Right we compare a side view of the artifact along with a side view of a brachiosaurus skull and a modern version of brachiosaurus.

Brachiosaurus has a distinctive shaped head among the sauropods; it has a “bulb” or a large bulge on the top frontal portion of its skull. Various artists and paleontologists have represented that bulge in a number of ways in modern depictions. The skull of diplodocus is longer and more horse like than is the skull of brachiosaurus. Camarsaurus and Euhelopus have more rounded skulls. We believe that this ancient, Viking artifact specifically represents what science calls the brachiosaurus today. A chart showing these sauropod skulls is provided a bit further down in this post.

A potential issue (among some would say, many) is that brachiosaurus is supposed to be an American dinosaur even though “related” dinosaurs and potential brachiosaurus remains have been found in Africa and Europe.

Does this prove that these Vikings made it to America? I’m not serious. One of the many differences that creationists have with evolutionists is that the need for isolated populations creates a bias for continent only dinosaurs. Creationists are not surprised when the same species appears on many or even all continents.


This grouping (photo) is not from Wikipedia and provides a comparison between the heads of modern depictions of brachiosaurus from fossil remains and a possible ancient eyewitness depiction.

“Brachiosaurus is a genus of sauropod dinosaur from the Jurassic Morrison Formation of North America. It was first described by Elmer S. Riggs in 1903 from fossils found in the Grand River Canyon (now Colorado River) of western Colorado, in the United States. Riggs named the dinosaur Brachiosaurus altithorax, declaring it “the largest known dinosaur”. Brachiosaurus had a proportionally long neck, small skull, and large overall size, all of which are typical for sauropods. However, the proportions of Brachiosaurus are unlike most sauropods.

The forelimbs were longer than the hindlimbs, which result in a steeply inclined trunk, making the overall body shape reminiscent of a modern giraffe. Also, while the tail is a typical long dinosaur tail, it was relatively short for a sauropod.

Brachiosaurus is the namesake genus of the family Brachiosauridae, which includes a handful of other similar sauropods. Much of what is known by laypeople about Brachiosaurus is in fact based on Giraffatitan brancai, a species of brachiosaurid dinosaur from the Tendaguru Formation of Tanzania that was originally described by German paleontologist Werner Janensch as a species of Brachiosaurus. Recent research shows that the differences between the type species of Brachiosaurus and the Tendaguru material are significant enough that the African material should be placed in a separate genus. Several other potential species of Brachiosaurus have been described from Africa and Europe, but none of them are thought to belong to Brachiosaurus at this time.”…Wikipedia

The Upshot


How do we account for the close match of the head of this artifact with the actual skull of brachiosaurus? Is this some quadrupedal, dragon like, reptile like (with “reptile” skin”) and frankly brachiosaurus like object nevertheless a wholly mythological depiction? Is that the simplest explanation or is it more likely that the maker of this artifact was familiar enough with the animal to make even a stylized form of it–which others would also recognize?

There must be an infinite number of mythological animal shapes from which an artist could choose from. Wouldn’t it be too much of a coincidence to believe that a purely mythological animal had nearly exact feature matches with a creature that allegedly became extinct 65 million years ago? “Behold now behemoth”!

Just for Kicks, Two Additional Viking Sauropods?


The same seller has another artifact, also described as an ancient Viking Zoomorphic bronze pendant, (rare). The location of the object is also Latvia.

The bidding has closed at $140.00. This artifact has the “telltale” head bulge on top of its head.

   

SOLID 830 SILVER DRAGON TEA SET 1892 ANTIQUE NORWEGIAN

This piece can be associated with the seven others that we are showing below because they all clearly represent the same long necked creature. We are making what we believe is the proper identfication below.


“A stunning rare Norwegian sterling silver tea set. It is hallmarked with the 830S standard mark and the makers mark of David Andersen, Christiania (the name for Oslo pre 1924), and the date 1892. For those unaware Andersen is regarded as Norway’s most sought after maker. It has been beautifully made being designed around a dragon theme. The teapot has a cast dragon spout and handle and cast dragon feet, the sugar bowl and cream jug have dragon handles and feet. Each piece has been engraved DK or KD as they are entwined.

Photo: Right 1910 Sauropod Drawing


It is in outstanding condition being free from dings splits and repairs. The pot handle wobbles a little due to the shrinkage of the natural insulator rings but this is very easy for a silversmith to put right and there are of course a couple of faint marks but nothing of any significance”.

This piece sold for approximately $2,200. The date of 1892 means that it was created some 15 years after the bones were intially discovered in 1877. The head of the “dragon” matches the other six dragons from across time and around the world that we show below.

We do not need to suppose that David Anderson the maker actually saw a live sauropod-only that at that through that time the depiction of this dinosaur was known and rather consistently drawn and sculpted. The detail and style of depictions of these dinosaurs at tha time were nothing like the current versions of these creatures.
   
Remarkable Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda Across Time and Continents (How to Terrain Your Dragons?)

Here’s that promised sauropod skull chart. Notice that cranial bulge on the skull of brachiosaurus? If there were in fact ancient depictions of this sauropod might we not notice today the long neck, dragon nature, long tail and the telltale head bulge? see story above.


We have been noting for some time that man and sauropod certainly interacted in the recent past.

Although in most respects these creatures are quite similar there are characteristics of the skull that might allow us to show not only that man was an eyewitness to living examples of these creatures but with specific genera of the sauropoda!

The 5,300 Year Old Mesopotamian Diplodocus on an ancient cylinder seal.

This ancient cylinder seal, currently housed at the Louvre Museum portrays sauropod like creatures as well as giant “birds” or pterosaurs. The seal is from Mesopotamia, approximately 3300 B.C. (Moortgart, Anton, The Art of Ancient Mesopotamia, 1969, plate 292., presumably seen by the artist.


I would ask that the interested reader note the points of similarity between a close-up of the “sauropod” depiction created by rolling the cylinder with the skull of Diplodocus Longus. This is the basis for me to call this creature and the consistent comparisons below diplodocus depictions.

    

Tang Dynasty Euhelopus

The Euhelopus skull is shown in the chart above. It is the skull in the top, left of the chart. Its skull is more rounded than that of either brachiosaurus or diplodocus. The artifact shown is more than 2,000 years more recent and on an entirely different continent.

Euhelopus; Source: Thinkquest.org

One of the big plant-eating dinosaurs similar to Camarasaurus, Euhelopus, or “good marsh foot,” had a longer neck and nose. Like Camarasaurus, it had strong teeth that grew around its jaws.


Other dinosaurs of this type had teeth growing only in front. Euhelopus had large nostrils on top of its head. Because of this, some scientists think it had a long trunk. That would have made it look very strange.

Photo: Collection description: Tang Dynasty (618 A.D.-906 A.D.) nephrite jade finial in the shape of a bird’s head (sic). It was probably used as a handle for a knife or other such implement. There is a bit of calcification on the jade, but it is an exquisite piece. It’s in a private collection on sale for $5,500.00

Both Camarasaurus and Euhelopus were camarasaurid (chambered lizard) dinosaurs, with hollow chambers in the backbone.

Euhelopus was a little slimmer than Camarasaurus, but large members of the family may have weighed as much as 24 tons. The biggest could have been up to 50 feet in length – without trunk. From fossil remains, scientists believed they were at home in marshy land at the bank of muddy rivers or in swamps.

They would have been safer there than on dry or wooded land where big flesh eater roamed.

Location: Shandong, People’s Republic of China
Size: Length- 50 feet (15m)
Classification: Family-Camarasauridae
Suborder-Sauropodomorpha
Order-Saurischia
Time: Late Jurassic


It may not be possible to readily identify the specific similarity of the Euhelopus sauropod depiction with that of the Tang Dynasty artifact. On the right we’ve placed the unedited drawing of the Euhelopus skull (except that we tinted it red) on top of the artifact for comparison. What do you think? Bird or sauropod?

    

Diplodocus, Right to Left, Around the World and Across Culture and Eras-Click to enlarge photo. 

We believe that each of these depictions is of diplodocus, which has a flatter skull than does Brachiosaurus or the other rounder headed sauropods, Camarsarus and Euhelopus. There is a remarkable consistency between the depictions, whatever it is that is in the artist’s eye. The depictions span a time period beginning 5,300 years ago through the Acambaro depiction of possibly the last 1,000 years.


From left to Right:(A)This is another version of the Mesopotamian cylinder seal (colorized). 3,300 B.C. Currently housed at Louvre Museum.

(B) Coffee Pot. By: Unidentified artist, Portuguese (Lisbon)
19th century, about 1825-1850 Metal; silver, wooden handle 29.5 x 26.7
Curved steamed body, 4-sided, heavy moulding below long contracted neck. Flattened domed cover. On 4 claw-ball feet. Curved spout flat at back, with animal’s head tip. Angular wooden handle. Cast parrot on ball, finial screwed to cover. Bands of floral repousse at base, above and below mid-moulding, at neck and on cover.
Museum of Fine Arts, Boston

(C)From the Vietnamese Bronze Age: 3rd century A.D. Cast bronze. Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Dongson culture.

(D)Bronze Ladle with “dragon head” handle. Han dynasty(220 B.C. to approx 220 A.D… Chinaweb
(E)Acambaro Mexico. Carbon dated to 1,500 to 4,000 years old. http://www.omniology.com/ManyDinos.jpg

(F)Record ID: HAMP-9A5B16
Object type: BRIDLE FITTING
Broad period: EARLY MEDIEVAL
County: HAMPSHIRE
Workflow stage: Awaiting validation
A slightly corroded fragment from a late early-medieval/Anglo-Scandinavian cast copper-alloy cheekpiece (c. 11th century AD). The fragment is formed of a curved Ringerike style animal head and neck in profile, possibly a dragon or sea monster. The cheekpiece is flat and the neck is long and the head is set at roughly right angles to it. On the outer edge of the curve is a recessed protrusion, broadly semicircular with a small central knop and suggestions of losses behind. At the end of the head is a recurving hook, perhaps representing a horn. Below are three small lobed protrusions …

The piece (F) on the far right is Scandavavian, from the 11th century A.D. The piece on the far left (A) is from 3300 B.C.-and yet from left to right the open minded can see that it is always the same creature that is being depicted; long necked, fleshy nosed and often bearded.

(G) 1892 Norwegian Tea Set. (Described above)

A word about the noses. It seems that the noses portrayed here for diplodocus are “fleshy” when compared with modern depictions. Here is a idea why the ancient depictions could be more accurate.

Study Paints New Picture of Dinosaur’s Nose. John Roach for National Geographic News August 2, 2001

A new study suggests that anyone who sits down to draw a detailed picture of what dinosaurs may have looked like will have to tweak the nose a bit to get it right. Usually the flesh-covered nasal passages of dinosaurs are shown toward the back of the openings in the nose bone. But Lawrence Witmer, a paleontologist at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, says that’s wrong, and the nostrils were really much closer to the front, just above the mouth, and were larger than thought.

Photo:Science Tries Fleshy Nosed Diplodocus

The finding, which Witmer reported in the August 3 issue of Science, is significant not just because it changes our idea of what dinosaurs looked like. It also has implications for how dinosaurs breathed, smelled, and regulated their body temperature and water loss.

“I don’t know why we got it wrong for so long,” said Witmer. “In general, the fleshy nostril the opening into the nasal cavity has escaped scientific inquiry.” People have relatively small bony nostrils, so there’s little doubt about where the flesh-covered nasal passages can be located to effectively do their job. The bony noses of dinosaurs, however, could have been more than two feet (0.6 meters) long, which leaves the placement of the fleshy nostrils open to interpretation.

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries: The Penn State Dinosaur that Was?; the Ancient Chinese Rhinoceros that Wasn’t; and the 19th Century Pterosaur Displaying Previously Unknown Morphological Features That Might Have Been

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 04 2012


By Chris Parker

I’m thinking that maybe the best part of my articles are the titles. Should I just stop right here? After all these years I’m still a hunt and peck typist and that took something out of me already. Where’s that Dragon Naturally speaking program?

The Penn State Dinosaur that Was?

Dragon? Oh yeah, naturally, let’s start with the Penn State “dragon”.

To be fair, they don’t call this one a dragon; they call it “zoomorphic”. If you’re interested in looking for dinosaurs in the art of the ancient peoples-in the art of people who lived within the last 5,000 years or so and have an opportunity to search a database of objects, try the words; dragon, zoomorphic, mythical, beast, grotesque, reptile or unknown creature.

This is not to say that these objects will necessarily be depictions of dinosaurs, I’m just saying searching ancient art using the term “dinosaur” is not a profitable enterprise.

I grew up believing that dinosaurs and man lived together as the Bible would have us believe, (calling them dragons). There was a time when I was less than convinced and so set out to find out the truth for myself. Subsequently it’s been confirmed by me after I’ve had the opportunity to search university databases and to view hundreds of thousands of pieces of ancient art in museum collections and for sale in private auctions that we did live within the time of the dinosaurs and that the proof is there.

As for ancient artifacts, the more they resemble a dinosaur, the less likely they will be on public view in a museum and the less valuable they will be. No museum wants to buy your ancient Aztec dinosaur.

Anyway, I read recently that the University of Pennsylvania’s Penn Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology was opening its collection of over 1 million objects to public view through a free online archive;

“Since its founding in 1887, the Penn Museum has collected around one million objects, many obtained directly through its own field excavations or anthropological research. Search the Penn Museum’s digital collections including 326,000 object records representing 660,000 objects with 51,500 images.”

Naturally, my immediate thought was; “I wonder if I can find some dinosaurs in that collection”. First, I searched for the word, “dragon”. Slim pickings. Then I searched the word zoomorphic. This is one of the items I discovered.

Zoomorphic Vessel,
Object Number:
35618
Provenience:
Bolivia
Cachilaya
Section:
American
Materials:
Stone
Description:
In shape of a lizard
Credit Line:
Max Uhle, William Pepper Peruvian Expedition, Funded by Phebe A. Hearst
Other Number / Type:
362 / Field No SF

In the shape of a lizard! But no lizard ever looked like that in my estimation. However, being able to call the object; “zoomorphic” and a “lizard” is why you’re getting to see the object in the first place. Any objects which would have to be classified a “dinosaur” are by definition; fakes.

On the other hand since my impression of the object is that it represents a dinosaur, I have to ask myself; what kind of dinosaur? It appears to be a quadrupedal dinosaur, but it is not long necked like a sauropod or even a prosauropod and it is not an armored dinosaur, nor one of the horned dinosaurs of the ceratopsian family.

This is what I did; I Googled; short necked South American dinosaurs and began perusing that group to see if modern day paleontologists had discovered a short necked, squat, quadrupedal dinosaur in South America, preferably in the Bolivian area which corresponded with an ancient artists depiction of a dinosaur living in his time. Did you follow that?

Here’s what I found.


“Brachy-trachelopan is an unusual short-necked sauropod dinosaur from the latest Jurassic Period (Tithonian) of Argentina. The holotype and only known specimen (Museo Paleontológico Egidio Feruglio MPEF-PV 1716) was collected from an erosional exposure of fluvial sandstone within the Cañadón Cálcero Formation on a hill approximately 25 km north-northeast of Cerro Cóndor, Chubut Province, in west-central Argentina, South America.

Though very incomplete, the skeletal elements recovered were found in articulation and include eight cervical, twelve dorsal, and three sacral vertebrae, as well as proximal portions of the posterior cervical ribs and all the doral ribs, the distal end of the left femur, the proximal end of the left tibia, and the right ilium. Much of the specimen was probably lost to erosion many years before its discovery. The type species is Brachytrachelopan mesai. The specific name honours Daniel Mesa, a local shepherd who discovered the specimen while searching for lost sheep. The genus name translates as “short-necked Pan”, Pan being the god of the shepherds.”…Wikipedia

Distance from Bolivia to Argentina? 1500 Miles. So could Brachytrachelopan have had a range of 1500 miles on the South American continent? Is this the least scientific investigation possible?

No, see paleontology.

Could this ancient piece represent in an artful, non literal way a quadrupedal dinosaur like Brachytrachelopan living not millions of years ago but less than a thousand years ago on the South American continent or; is it just a fat lizard?

You’ll have to decide that for yourself.

 

The Ancient Chinese Rhinoceros that Wasn’t


I was saving this as an entry in Part 2 of my Article: Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur; How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight but since that hasn’t been compiled yet I’ll place two planned entries for that article here.

Along with euphemisms like “zoomorphic”, “mythical” and ‘dragon” that it turns out are often appended to the rare depiction of the dinosaur found in museum collections and at private auction sales is the tendency to misidentify animal depictions.

This is because when the curator is not sure what creature it is that is being represented by the ancient artist he still likes to come up with an answer that is not outside the realm of currently accepted science and which satisfies the potential customer.

It’s an ancient Chinese bear, a new owner might say proudly to his houseguests as they stare into his lighted display case at what is actually a ground sloth. Everyone still oohs and ahhs.

This particular piece was sold at auction at Christie’s auction house in 2007 for $216,000. Here is the description:

Lot Description A RARE AND SMALL BRONZE FIGURE OF A RHINOCEROS
TANG DYNASTY (618-907 AD)

Shown standing four-square with tail flicked to the left, the head well cast with two horns of different length, ears pricked back, small eyes and downward curved, overlapping muzzle sensitively cast along the upper edges of the mouth with folds in the skin, which can also be seen in the skin of the neck and chest, the thick hide indicated by overlapping wave pattern diminishing in size on the head and legs, with a rectangular aperture in the belly, the dark brownish surface with some patches of dark red patina and green encrustation.

Lot Notes The depiction of the rhinoceros in bronze is very rare, especially during the Tang period. Earlier depictions do exist, however, as evidenced by the late Shang rhinoceros zun in the Avery Brundage Collection, illustrated by d’Argencè, The Ancient Chinese Bronzes, San Francisco, 1966, pl. XIX and another large zun (22 7/8in. long), ornately decorated, but quite realistic in its depiction of a rhinoceros, of late Eastern Zhou/Western Han dynasty date, found in Xingping Xian, Shaanxi province, included in the exhibition, The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, New York, Catalogue, no. 93


Here’s the problem though; this is Not a depiction of a rhinoceros! (I studied economics in college so….). For one thing, I’ve looked at hundreds if not more than a thousand photographs and depictions of rhinoceri and you’ll not find a single one of them who has horns that point forward. All rhinoceros horns curve backwards.

Small detail, I know but if you look closely at and compare this depiction with that of the rhinoceros you’ll begin to see the differences. For instance, this creature has a beak! No self respecting rhino would sport a “beak” because rhinos do not have “beaks’. Additionally, this rhino has a horn that projects straight up out of the top of his skull. That would appear to be a rhino no no.

There are other differences; the rhino has a sway back, this creature’s back is convex, etc. etc. Did you notice that he’s not wearing the little rhino coat that rhinos seem to wear where there legs seems to be poking out of the short sleeves?

Is there an ancient, perhaps extinct creature with perhaps the size of a rhino, (or larger) horned but with a “beak”? (I may have tipped my hand with the adjacent photo).


Well, the ceratopsia certainly had beaks and ceratopsia does mean “horned face”. After studying members of the ceratopsian family it appears that the comparison with this artifact is pretty solid but; there is one thing missing; the neck frill.

Most if not all known ceratopsian dinosaurs were supposed to have a neck frill although there are some differences among scientists as too how the neck frill appeared.

Also, I can find no photo of the object that shows the tail; only the statement that it curves off to the left. But can a rhino tail do anything but hang? Seeing the tail would answer some questions perhaps because a ceratopsian like tail would certainly rule out the rhino while a rhino like tail would create more questions.

Could this be a yet undiscovered version of a ceratopsian dinosaur without the neck frill? I am put in mind of the Emela-ntouka.
(Although it could also be perspective. The outline of the frill along with the convincing detail of the ceratopsian ‘cheek” may be in evidence).

“The Emela-ntouka is an African legendary creature in the mythology of the Pygmy tribes, and a cryptid purported to live in Central Africa. Its name means “killer of the elephants” in the Lingala language.

In other languages it is known as the Aseka-moke, Njago-gunda, Ngamba-namae, Chipekwe or Irizima. The Emela-ntouka is claimed to be around the size of an African Bush Elephant, brownish to gray in color, with a heavy tail, and with a body of similar shape and appearance to a rhinoceros, including one long horn on its snout. Keeping its massive bulky body above ground level supposedly requires four short, stump-like legs.

It is described as having no frills or ridges along the neck. The animal is alleged to be semi-aquatic and feed on Malombo and other leafy plants. The Emela-ntouka is claimed to utter a vocalization, described as a snort, rumble or growl….Wikipedia

For more information on Emela-ntouka here is a story on Cryptomundo

Here is another aspect of this mystery; Chinese unicorns.

I was researching ancient Chinese rhinos and discovered that somehow there had come to be a conflagration of the rhino and the unicorn; the combo is known today as the “rhinoceros unicorn”. The ancient Chinese unicorn has a frame around its head that somewhat reminds one of the ceratopsian neck frill.

One Chinese site (Chinese-Unicorn.coms) sets out to prove in what would be our 4th cryptozoological mystery that the supposed 50,000 years extinct Elasmotherium is the actual creature being depicted as the ancient Chinese unicorn. Since monokeros is the Greek word meaning “one horn” from which the word unicorn comes to us, the elasmotherium is accurately described as a unicorn whether or not it was the “unicorn”.

Elasmotherium (“Thin Plate Beast”) is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 Ma to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots”….Wikipedia

Here we show an artists depiction of elasmotherium along with two ancient depictions of the unicorn. Left, Eastern Han Dynasty, 206 B.C. – 220 A.D. right, also Eastern Han Dynasty.

What is the being depicted in the object that sold at Christie’s auction in 2007 for $216K? A mythical creature? A ceratopsian? Emela-ntouka?

What it is is a genuine crptozoological mystery.

What it ain’t is a rhinoceros.

 

20th Century Pterosaur Displaying Previously Unknown Morphological Features That Might Have Been

Iola Register, September 25, 1896
CAUGHT IN FLORIDA. MARKET REPORTS.
Marine Monster Tbat Is Part Fish Part
Bird Part Animal
.

“Sea serpents are becoming too common, and when Florida people decided to produce a marine monster the serpent family was ignored and the Diabolus Maris was produced.

The picture which is presented was made from a drawing sent to the Kansas City Journal by Capt. George Bier, of the United States Navy.


The animal was caught off the coast of Florida, at Malanzas inlet, in 72 feet of water. It was caught on a hook and line, and when dragged aboard the boat was full of fight.
In order to preserve the strange monster it was found necessary to kill it, for it was so vicious that it could not be handled.

This remarkable relic of the antediluvian monster seemed to be part bird, part fish and part animal.

Capt. Bier described it as follows:

“It has no scales, although it can swim. A portion of its body is covered with hair and when it wants to fly it inflates two windbags behind its wings. This Inflation is through its gills, which are situated on its breast. It stands upright upon its feet, which are shaped like hoofs. Its face and body are more human like than anything else and its mouth is like that of a raccoon, garnished with two rows of teeth. It stood about 20 inches high and strutted like a rooster.”

Above and below the creature compared to a “modern” pteosaur depiction and below to an antique African pterosaur depiction.

>
After its capture the monster was christened DIABOLUS MARIS, and was transferred to Tampa. Fla. where it has since been on exhibition. Naturalists who have seen it can find no other name for it, and it’s like has never been seen before.

Some fish have fins that resemble wings, and can be used for flying, but fish do not wear hair.

The presence of legs prove that it is not a fish, and its ability to live under water and the gills
prove that it is not a bird.”…End of article

Question? If pterosaurs had an air bladder on their backs that could be filled with air to assist them in flight would we be able to determine this from fossils?

Would an air bladder help to explain how such large creatures could get off the ground? Paleontologists are so confused by the subject that they recently released to widely separated “studies” reported heavily in the media that reached two opposite conclusions; pterosaurs could not fly and alternatively they were the best flyers ever. (Couldn’t Fly-Mar 2009
Could Fly 10,000 Miles-Oct 2010)

Did we know that pterosaurs had “hair” or that they may have been able to breathe under water? That they had gills?

“The pterosaurs seem to have been able to fly soon after birth ( as possibly were some ancestral birds which means that during this prodigious growth their aerodynamics had to be functional at all times. In contrast, modern birds are born flightless and only begin to fly at nearly adult size.” .BBC Science

It makes more sense that God created pterosaurs with the ability to fly utilizing wings and air bladders than to believe that mutation and survival of the fittest created winged flightless creatures, eh Paleontologists?

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs-How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 13 2011


“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

By Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a fictional character and one of the primary protagonists in the Star Wars movie series. Portrayed by Alec Guinness in the original trilogy, he was one of the most memorable. In the world of the Star Wars films, Kenobi had a particular skill that he used to great effect known now as “conversational hypnosis”. He was able to convince his antagonists by speaking in a specific tone of voice to alter their intended courses of action or for example, to see something that wasn’t in fact there.

Someone or something with even greater abilities is at work here in the real world. When it comes to modern science’s ability to utilize that same skill in convincing the world that dinosaurs and man never interacted, I’m afraid that Obi-Wan Kenobi comes off as a Wookiee;/rookie. Of course, in the movie Obi-Wan had the virtue of not being on the “dark” side. Not true of modern science.

Citizen: ”Science, Shouldn’t I look into the dinosaur/ancient dragon connection more closely?”
Evolutionary Science: [with a small wave of its hand]’ You don’t need to look into the dinosaur question more closely”.
Citizen: ” We don’t need to look more closely.”
Evolutionary Science: [calmly, smoothly, head moving side to side; indicating no..] These aren’t the dinosaurs you’re looking for.
Citizen: [trancelike] “These aren’t the dinosaurs I’m looking for.”
Evolutionary Science: You can go about your business.
Citizen: “ I can go about my business”.
Evolutionary Science:” Move along”.
Citizen: “ Moving along, moving along.”

It’s a bit ironic how easily even evolutionists accept portrayals of man and dinosaur together in cartoons, television programs and movies. However, we have all been trained regarding when it is acceptable to see these interactions and when it is not. Dinosaurs in cartoons; yes-dinosaurs in ancient art museums, no!

(I know that this particular one isn’t funny, but how about; “When this game evolves we’ll be using pigskin instead of dinosaur skin, but they won’t be here ‘til the Olicene”?)

Click on the cartoon above for the rest of this story. The point; dinosaurs and dragons; change the context change the dragon.

 

Photo Right:Top-Rhamphorynchus fossil at the British Nuseum, 1922. Bottom- Aurora Defeating the Dragon, Aurora Consurgens, Published 1420.

When the British Museum put the fossil remains of Rhamphorynchus on display in 1922, it was labeled “Pterodactyl or Extinct Flying Dragon”, drawing a direct line from the pterosaur of modern science to the historic tales of dragons, flying and otherwise that had pervaded the written and artistic history of virtually every ancient culture.

A photograph of that 1922 exhibit is shown here along with a drawing from the 1420 Book Aurora Consurgens (Aurora Defeating the Dragon). This 1420 book depicts a version of the British Museum pterosaur some 350 years prior to their scientific discovery by Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini thought that they were seagoing creatures.

It’s true that pterosaurs are not considered to be dinosaurs but ancient cultures considered them all (dinosaurs, marine reptiles and pterosaurs) as either dragons or flying dragons. So what happened? How did the clear reference made by the British Museum of the obvious link between, giant, dangerous, reptilian, land, air and sea monsters with the modern discovery of giant, dangerous, reptilian, land air and sea monsters that we call dinosaurs get severed? These dragons are not the dinosaurs you seek!

Let’s start with why before we consider how. Even prior to Darwin many people had become skeptical about such things as the Biblical chronology of the earth and biblical history. For many dragons were considered mythological and a reason to doubt the Bible’s veracity. In this same period, the theories of the geologic column and formation of the earth over millions of years served as grist for the evolution mill. The term dinosaur was coined in 1842. Origin of the Species was published in 1859. All these tended to provide some evidence or support for Atheists and skeptics.

As more and more of these giant, mysterious creatures science called dinosaurs were discovered there was a chance that they could have been associated with the dragons of “recorded history” but instead were placed by science by use of the geologic column to an age millions of years ago.

This fit neatly with modern anti-biblical notions regarding the age of the earth and with evolutionary processes which needed millions and billions of years to complete. Of course any suggestions that dinosaurs were the dragons of the Bible and of ancient cultures would serve to undermine these theories and to support the Bible. The relatively new claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs would seem even more ridiculous if it was understood that dinosaurs were running around with birds –and man just a few years ago.

How Did They do it?

For one thing; scientific illustrators try to make sure that dinosaur depictions look nothing at all like ancient depictions of dragons. It may surprise you to know that scientists actually have no idea what dinosaurs looked like. Witness this rather long exerpt from a Discover Magazine Article in 2000 entitled: What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like?

“In recent months, artists in the workshop have been putting finishing touches on a special exhibit called Fighting Dinosaurs. In a diorama for the new exhibit a fierce velociraptor, looking like a thinned-down turkey with frighteningly large teeth, stalks a protoceratops. With a flanged crest and beaked mouth that make it look like a goat-sized version of its larger and more famous cousin, Triceratops, the protoceratops sees the predator coming and snarls.


The scene is so vivid that some visitors may glance around nervously to be certain they haven’t been whisked back 80 million years by a hidden time machine. “When you come upon a diorama,” says David Harvey, the museum’s vice president of exhibitions, “it transcends all of the data. It becomes a real experience.”

Yet it is precisely that experience with which a growing number of scientists have a big problem: There is precious little data about dinosaurs to transcend. What the museum scientists know about Indians, whales, and elephants is more than enough to mimic real life. But when it comes to dinosaurs, all they really have to work with is an incomplete jumble of bones. Indeed, if the exhibits department were limited to just skeletal data for its dioramas and reconstructions, these halls would take on a most unromantic flavor. For instance, the Indians in the canoe would lack noses, ears, and breasts, and the diorama artists (ignoring for the moment that they are humans themselves) would be at a loss for what to cover them in—slick skin like a dolphin? Monkey fur? Gorilla hair? As for the blue whale, no one would know to make it blue. And the elephants are a special case. There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster.

Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. To begin with, dinosaur skeletons are rarely found intact, and figuring out how scattered bones fit together is not always clear. Then, making the leap of placing tissue and skin on those bones is a process fraught with unknowns.

Some paleontologists trained in comparative anatomy are beginning to analyze microscopic marks that soft tissues make on bones in search of clues to what dinosaurs actually looked like. But taking a pile of bones and conjuring up what snarling dinosaurs about to battle each other really looked like involves at best equal parts educated guesswork and complete artistic fancy. As Mark Norell, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the museum, puts it, dinosaur artwork “is a fantastic leap from what we know.” And most scientists say we may never know a lot more than we do now”….Discover Magazine, September 2000

Dinosaurs look as little like dragons as possible considering that they are both giant, reptilian ‘monsters”. Could artists render them with bonier heads, external ears, beards and the ferocious dragon mien? Not if they want them published or taken seriously. If dinosaurs looked more like dragons it would be even more difficult to get us to “move along” on this issue.

Just a few more things about dinosaurs here; there are not nearly as many types of dinosaurs as you think. Because of evolution theory, dinosaurs are supposed to differ from continent to continent but they don’t. This doesn’t stop science from giving them different names though.

This last note will be important as we begin to look at some actual dinosaur depictions from ancient China—the actual intent of this article –if I can get to it. An article describing a recent study was published in Live Science on June 22, 2009:

Giant Dinosaurs Get Downsized “Some dinosaurs were the largest creatures ever to walk on land, including the classic long-necked, whip-tailed Diplodocus, but a new study suggests it and its many extinct brethren weighed as little as half as much as previously thought.” A new equation for calculating dinosaur mass based on skeletons found that scientists have been overestimating the girth of many dinosaurs.” Giant Dinosaurs get Downsized

    Photo:Might down sized sauropods have looked like this 3,500 year old Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal depiction rather than the standard depiction on the right?

    More here.


Please keep the foregoing in mind and your mind open as you view a few of the many, many examples of dinosaurs catalogued by the ancient Chinese and classed as mythological dragons by modern science; “Crouching dragon? Hidden Dinosaur?” I picked China here today because China and Asia are thought to be the ancient source of the “mythological dragon”. In truth, they appeared in the art and written history of virtually all ancient cultures in some form because “dinosaurs” lived all over the planet within recorded history. Of course it must be said that many alleged mythological creatures were in fact fanciful.

It’s time for a little show and tell!
[whisper] chris parker; these are not the dinosaurs you seek…

Tang Dynasty Running Dragons

I’ve often particularly noticed these little gold Tang Dynasty (618 A.D. to 907 A.D.) running dragons at the Shanghai Museum. Known as running dragons, this little herd of “dragons” are versions of the same type of dragon that crops up in the art of a number of ancient Chinese Dynasties. What a curious way to portray a mythological creature! In a herd.

I thought that perhaps they might be depictions of actual creatures but I was never successful in finding anything similar in modern depictions of dinosaurs.

I noted that there are other versions of this dragon in ancient Chinese art, but I also came across a very similar dragon in the art of ancient Babylon. What strikes me about these dragons is their slight build but also the seemingly “exaggerated” distance between their front and back legs. They certainly don’t make one think of most modern depictions of dinosaurs.

Remember however, that 1) no scientist today has a clue what dinosaurs actually looked like and 2)there is some indication that artists have been placing a little too much meat on the bone; oversizing them as much as double according to the Live Science article quoted above.

The Tang Dynasty dragons are in the center; on the right of the graphic is the famous dragon of Marduk from the Babylonian Ishtar gate. The Babylonian dragon precedes the Tang Dynasty versions by 1,000 years. Is it a coincidence that two ancient societies created nearly identical mythological dragons?


Perhaps. But perhaps not.. The creature on the left is Massospondylus (above photo; skeleton is alongside this para) (“a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the early Jurassic Period (Hettangian to Pliensbachian ages, ca. 200–183 million years ago).” Wikipedia), as it appears on a Canadian stamp.

Massopondylus’ skeleton is very slight and most artists have depicted it as a heavier creature. However, drawn as a slighter animal it bears a resemblance to the Chinese dragons. Certainly if this group of dinosaurs, including other similar dinosaurs such as plateosaurus (small prosauropods) had been depicted like this some of us would have drawn a straighter line between dinosaurs and dragons even without the external “dragon” features.

“fossil concentrations have suggested that Massospondylus was a herd animal, perhaps wandering through the ancient landscape of what is today South Africa – as well as the rest of Africa – like modern wildebeest. It was certainly widespread. Remains of Massospondylus have also been found in North and South America, China and India.

When Massospondylus was alive, today’s land masses were all joined together in the super-continent Pangaea (‘Pan-jee-a’, which is Greek for “All Earth”). This distribution of fossils indicates that the animals were present in large numbers over very large areas.” ….www.primeorigins.co.za/young_minds/massospondylus.htm

Let’s look at other slighter depictions of prosauropods like Massopondylus and compare them to depictions of ancient Chinese “dragons”.

At left, on top, is a Song dynasty dragon, (1127 A.D.-1279 A.D.) in silver and gold with turquoise inlays from the Musee Guimet, in Paris. Below is a depiction of plateosaurus, a prosauropod, similar to massospondylus. (Note to the detail oriented: the modern depiction has the rear left leg extended backwards at the same time as the forward left leg is extended forward. The mythological dragon seems as though he has the better gait?)

Do these dragons in fact represent truer versions of prosauropod? It could be. The point remains that no one knows what dinosaurs actually looked like.

 

 

I want to show you an additional dinosaur depiction that makes it clear that the same allegedly mythological dinosaur was modeled by as we showed the Babylonians on the Ishtar Gate, (604- 562 BC), the Tang Dynasty (618A.D. -907A.D.) and ancient South America from the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).

On top is a piece from the Julsrud collection; a collection of over 30 thousand miniature figurines found buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico.

Of course, because the collection features so many obvious dinosaurs interacting with man it is not considered to be genuine. It is remarkable that the same dinosaur/dragon depiction has appeared on at least three continents representing cultures spanning 1,500 years.

The dinosaur/dragon on the bottom is also from the Tang Dynasty; it is a rare painted ceramic that recently sold at auction for over $23,000. The fact that the 1945 discovered Julsrud collection depicts dinosaurs not as modern artists do but as the ancients did provides credibility for the collection and the idea that these are real and not mythological creatures.


Here on the right an apparently clueless ancient Chinese hunter chases a “mythological creature” with either a bow or a bolo weapon. These Sketches (rubbings) of Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to 220 A.D.)motifs are by Lampo Leong, a University of Missouri Professor. The dynamic movement is typical of Han art. This appears to be the same dragon depicted by the Tang Dynasty, the ancient Babylonians, the ancient South Americans and-the Canadians!?

Science does not know hat dinosaurs looked like but “it” is sure of this one thing; they did not look anything like dragons!

Moving on.

Liao Dynasty

This next beautiful piece comes down to use from Liao Dynasty, China. (Photo from Wikimedia). It is a drinking flask covered with a Sancai glaze.

“The Liao Dynasty, also known as the Khitan Empire was an empire in East Asia that ruled over the regions of Manchuria, Mongolia, and parts of northern China proper between 907 – 1125. It was founded by the Yelü clan of the Khitan people in the same year as Tang Dynasty collapsed (907), even though its first ruler, Yelü Abaoji (Yaruud Ambagai Khan), did not declare an era name until 916.” Wikipedia

This piece is interesting because it features two different dragons. I want to discuss the “dragon” on the top of the flask. First of all, as for it being a dragon; it instead reminds me very much of a ceratopsian dinosaur. After all “ceratopsian” is Greek for “horned face”. The ceratopsians, which includes triceratops; supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years prior to the Liao Dynasty.

I see the horned face, and I see what appears to be from the only angle we have, a rudimentary neck frill.

But do you know what else?

Yes! The feet!. The dinosaur feet! Well, feet that would make tracks similar to those three-toed tracks made by many types of dinosaurs (although there are wide variations in three-toed dinosaur tracks). Note here the leptoceratopsian dinosaur; his feet are very similar to that of our dragon aboard the flask.

Note: “Except in extraordinary circumstances, it’s pretty much impossible to identify the specific genus or species of dinosaur that made a given footprint. What paleontologists can figure out fairly easily is whether the dinosaur was bipedal or quadruped (that is, whether it walked on two or four feet); what geological period it lived in (based on the age of the sediment where the footprint is found); and its approximate size and weight (based on the size and depth of the footprint).”..About.com Dinosaurs

Early American naturalist Edward Hitchcock wrongly interpreted the thousands of dinosaur footprints that he encountered on the America plains as the footprints of giant, flightless birds who roamed the Americas in giant herds. His mistaken hypothesis was taken up by a number of other naturalists for a time.

Here however, the Ancient Chinese somehow rightly associated dinosaur footprints with large dragon and dinosaur-like reptiles….

On the right here we compare the two right footprints of our Liao Dynasty dragon with those of the dinosaur. My guess is that the Ancient Chinese did not have to look at ancient tracks on the plain to figure out what sorts of creatures made them. The creatures; dinosaurs were still living at that time.

 

 

Late Eastern Zhou Sauropod

“The Shang dynasty (1766 BC – 1027 BC) ruled parts of northern and central China. Its capital city was located at Anyang near the border of Henan from about 1384 BCE. This dynasty was based on agriculture; millet, wheat, and barley were the primary crops grown.

In addition to the crops, silkworms, pigs, dogs, sheep, and oxen were raised. Aside from their agricultural prowess, the Shang dynasty was also advanced in metallurgy. Bronze ships, weapons, and tools were found from that era.” Thinkquest

This Ancient Chinese ornamental box of bronze features an unmistakable depiction of a sauropod dinosaur. To be more precise, likely a prosauropod dinosaur. A version of the object appeared in the book (The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285.) Fong, Wen ed. This photo is from Zhengzhou, from the Henan Museum.

The sauropod dinosaurs are easily recognizable and difficult to miss, however, might science here again made its depictions of the creature to large? One alternative to consider is that the creature depicted is one of the group that modern science now calls prosauropods who among other things was generally smaller. The creature crawling up the side of the box is also making an appearance here out in the water in the introductory photo at the very top of the page.

Here also he is shown in comparison to several dinosaurs described as ancient Chinese prosauropods, extinct for over 65 million years.

Top, left Yunnanosaurus; “ a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the Early to Middle Jurassic Period, a position in time that makes it one of the last prosauropods. It is closely related to Lufengosaurus. Known from two valid species, Yunnanosaurus ranged in size from 7 meters (23 feet) long and 2 m (6.5 ft) high to 13 m (42 ft) long in the largest species.” Yang Zhongjian (aka C. C. Young) discovered the first Yunnanosaurus skeletons in the Lufeng Formation of Yunnan, China…Wikipedia

Bottom, right: Yimenosaurus .”Along with its close contemporary, Jingshanosaurus, Yimenosaurus was one of the largest prosauropods, measuring about 30 feet from head to tail and weighing as much as two tons–not much compared to the plus-sized sauropods of the late Jurassic period, but beefier than most other prosauropods, which only weighed a few hundred pounds. Thanks to its numerous (and near-complete) fossil remains, Yimenosaurus is one of the better known herbivorous dinosaurs of early Jurassic Asia, rivaled only by another Chinese prosauropod, Lufengosaurus.”…Wikipedia

PHOTO;Lufengosaurus Skeleton

The point here is not so much to identify the actual species of prosauropod that the Eastern Zhou “dragon” represents but rather to show that the artist could have credibly meant to represent one of these animals which were thought to have gone extinct 65 million years prior to the Shang Dynasty. This crouching dragon was more likely a hidden dinosaur.

 

 

Han Dynasty Theropod Dinosaur

The Chinese dragon bronze sculpture (below right, faded) is on display at the Glendive dinosaur and fossil museum in Glendive, Montana.

It is dated to the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.)and is approximately 2,000 years old. The piece looks remarkably like a Theropod dinosaur including the correct posture, dermal spines, and forearms that end in “hands”. It bears a remarkable resemblance to a Therizinosaur.

The larger and clearer photo of the figure to the left is a virtually identical artifact described as an “ancient Chinese artifact”. The item is for sale on EBAY. The seller claims that it is a bronze, ancient piece from the Bronze Age of China.

If the item is authentic, then it bears a close resemblance to a Therizinosaur with its exaggerated claws and bi pedal stance. One would have to be impressed that the ancient Chinese could have even mythologized a bi pedal dragon/dinosaur. (Note the “compare” drawing is actually of Harpymimus (Wikidino) which is basicallly the Chinese version of the same theropod dinosaur.)

 

 

Ancient Chinese Fu (Foo) Dogs/Lions and other Mysterious Buddhist Temple Creatures

Photo:Pair of Asian stoneware lions 18th century.(1700’s) Busacca Gallery.

Foo Dogs/Lions are neither dogs nor lions. No one is quite sure what they are/were other than mystical creatures. I’ve been interested in them for some time because they are so ubiquitous, because they appear elsewhere in the ancient world outside of China; in ancient India for instance.
From Wikipedia “Chinese guardian lions, known as Shishi lions (Chinese pinyin: shísh?; literally “stone lion”) or Imperial guardian lion, and often incorrectly called “Foo Dogs” in the West, are a common representation of the lion in pre-modern China.

They have traditionally stood in front of Chinese Imperial palaces, Imperial tombs, government offices, temples, and the homes of government officials and the wealthy, from the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220), and were believed to have powerful mythic protective benefits. Pairs of guardian lions are still common decorative and symbolic elements at the entrances to restaurants, hotels, supermarkets and other structures, with one sitting on each side of the entrance”.

Photo: Wall at the Ellora Caves

Some time ago I was struck by the following description; from India of a dragon which seemed to picture a creature somewhat similar to the Chinese Foo Dog. Later I found a photo of this Temple scene which also seemed to match the written description of a living creature.

“This kind also have beards, and lift their necks on high, while their scales glitter like silver; and the pupils of their eyes consist of a fiery stone, and they say that this has an uncanny power for many secret purposes.

The plain specimen falls the prize of the hunters whenever it draws upon itself an elephant; for the destruction of both creatures is the result, and those who capture the dragons are rewarded by getting the eyes and skin and teeth.

In most respects they resemble the largest swine, but they are slighter in build and ‘flexible, and they have teeth as sharp and indestructible as those of the largest fishes.”

(See the creature on the far left of the photo above). The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}On the Existence of Dragons …. Upon his visit to India

Let’s cut to the chase; I may have discovered what these creatures were and they were not mythological as modern science can attest. However, they weren’t dinosaurs either-which is why it took so long for me to identify these particular Chinese/Indian dragons.

For the final section of this somewhat long article I modestly propose to unmask in fact two ancient “mythological creatures”-by name, both of whom it is claimed lived 255 -260 million years ago. One key in examining this upcoming visual evidence is to remember that modern science and modern scientific illustrators like to draw their retrospective animal recreations “unadorned”.

“Moschops (meaning calf face) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Late Permian, around 255 million years ago. Therapsids were proto-mammals (non-mammal synapsids), which were the dominant land animals. Five metres long, Moschops was the largest land animal of its time, a herbivore preyed on by other therapsids. Its remains were found in the Karoo region of South Africa.

Here is a photo of “dragons” on the temple roof in Ellora.

It was the largest land animal at the time, with a body length of around 5 metres (16 ft). It was a heavily-built herbivore with short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. The forelimbs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind limbs were more mammalian in form, being placed directly under the body. The diet of Moschops was mostly plants, sometimes eating meat.”

“Ellora (Marathi) is an archaeological site, 30 km (19 mi) from the city of Aurangabad in the Indian state of Maharashtra built by the Rashtrakuta dynasty. Well-known for its monumental caves, Ellora is a World Heritage SiteEllora represents the epitome of Indian rock-cut architecture.

The 34 “caves” – actually structures excavated out of the vertical face of the Charanandri hills. Buddhist, Hindu and Jain rock-cut temples and viharas and mathas were built between the 5th century and 10th century” Wikipedia….


Are you familiar with the flack that has been caused by the discovery of a stegosaurus depiction at Angkor Wat? “(or the ceratopsian at Muktinath Temple?

This “dinosaur”/dragon depiction is much older. Here is an up close picture of the Ellora Roof Dragon and moschops or a close relative. Moschops did not live over 250 million years ago. He lived within the history of mankind. He was created by God during the six days of creation.

One could literally crop a close picture of the Ellora dragon, label it Moschops and when it came up in image searches for moschops the internet searcher would be none the wiser.

Another group shot of the ellora roof dragon and moschops should make it even more clear that these creatures were living in India during the 5th century A.D.

How did I get in India talking about moschops when I started out writing about Chinese dinosaur/dragons? I have to confesds that initially I believed that the Foo Dogs of China and India were moschops or one of its close relatives.

This just proves that like paleontology, cryptozoological historical archaeology is not an exact science. It’s not even an exacpt pronunciation. I have come to believe that the Foo dogs/lions of China might have been another creature entirely.

Anteosaurus (meaning “previous or early reptile”) is the name given to an extinct genus of large carnivorous synapsid. It lived during the Capitanian epoch of the Middle Permian (266-260 million years ago) in what is now South Africa. They became extinct by the middle Late Permian.

Anteosaurus was a semi aquatic synapsid with a long tail and weak limbs, which indicate a lifestyle including water, much like that of a crocodile. Anteosaurus weighed approximately 500-600 kg and was around 5-6 m long…

Let’s compare a modern depiction of Antesaurus with an ancient one of the Foo Dog/lion.

There is a lot to like in this depiction of antesaurus as a possible model for the Food dog in China and India;.the musculature, the posture and the incisors to name a few.

This Marx toy version of Moschops by Marx toys is what first made me see a possible association with Moschops.

There are so many articles of ancient art that we didn’t get a chance to examine here that there will no doubt have to be, God willing a part two and three of this article.

These are the dinosaurs you seek.

I feel a disturbance in the farce.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2

Ancient Mound Builder Controversy: Did They Interact with and Memorialize Allosaurus, T-Rex or Carnotaurus? Plus, Champ or Ogopogo?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 28 2011

by Chris Parker

Drawing: Mound Builder Artifact from the book: “Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley, 1887

It’s amazing how little we as a supposedly educated culture actually know about the past. Even if we’ve studied the past, much of what is being taught or that is commonly believed is untrue. For instance, Columbus did not “discover” America. He was preceded here certainly by its inhabitants of the time, but also by the Norse, the Chinese, Africans, the Irish and the Vikings to name a few. Nero did not fiddle while Rome burned, Eve did not eat an apple, Egyptians were Africans. Dinosaurs and man Did interact

When in comes to the American continent, Native Americans supposedly came here from Asia 20,000 years ago across the Bering Straight land Bridge. However, a mysterious people, now called the Mound Builders whose works the Native Americans didn’t know were apparently here before them and their artifacts show that they interacted with the mastodon, dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles. Dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years ago.

No one knows for sure who the Mound Builders were and where they came from but one thing is certain; no one believes that they lived with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. The question is; did some dinosaurs and Mound builders live together here on this continent in “recent” times?

I present here some theories about the actual aimals being depicted here. Of course I could be wrong but I feel that if science believes that the ancient mound depicted on the left represents a Swan rather than a quadruped such as a sauropod that I’m on safe ground.

“The group of cultures collectively called Mound Builders were prehistoric inhabitants of North America who constructed various styles of earthen mounds for burial, residential and ceremonial purposes. These included the Pre-Columbian cultures of the Archaic period; Woodland period (Adena and Hopewell cultures); and Mississippian period; dating from roughly 3000 BCE to the 16th century CE, and living in regions of the Great Lakes, the Ohio River valley, and the Mississippi River valley and its tributaries.

As a comparison, beginning with the construction of Watson Brake about 3500 BC in present-day Louisiana, indigenous peoples started building earthwork mounds in North America nearly 1000 years before the pyramids were constructed in Egypt. Since the 19th century, the prevailing scholarly consensus has been that the mounds were constructed by Indigenous peoples of the Americas, early cultures distinctly separate from the historical Native American tribes extant at the time of European colonization of North America. The historical Native Americans were generally not knowledgeable about the civilizations that produced the mounds. Research and study of these cultures and peoples has been based on archaeology and anthropology.” Wikipedia

Mound Builder Theropod Dinosaur


This artifact (also pictured at the top of the page) is a drawing from the book; Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley: Written By William McAdams published in 1887 Page 14.

The author and the experts refer to the depiction as a “dragon” and it might seem presumptuous of me to disagree (particularly since we have only the head of the creature) but I see something else entirely. The Mound Builder creatures surrounding this piece are for the most part recognizable and are sculpted in a realistic style. There is no reason to suppose that this is a mythological creature other than because one has an A Priori scientific belief that these creatures did not exist within the lifetime of man.

Here is the author’s discussion of the piece in question and the other pieces found with it in the mound.

Graphic:Left, T-rex, Right Carnotaurus

“In our collection of pottery from the ancient mounds we have several pieces ornamented with dragon-like devices. We give an illustration of two of these; burial vases, with a most pronounced dragon-head standing up from the rim of the vessel. There is the great mouth with the teeth revealed, and protruding tongue, with fierce eyes, and the general aspect, not only of the Piasa, but of those mythological representations of the dragon so frequently found in Asia. We present a sketch of another.

Graphic:Left, Allosaurus, Right Carnotaurus


It is all the more interesting since we found with it a magnificent collection of pottery, of more than a hundred pieces, at the base of the great Cahokia mound, (pictured above, right) in the American Bottom, in Madison County, Ills.

This is the largest artificial mound in the United States, and perhaps in the world, being one-hundred feet in height, and covering with its base sixteen acres of ground. It is the centre of a group of seventy-two others, which surround it, and of which a description will be given farther on in this work. They are situated on a level plain, miles from any natural elevation. For a complete description and survey of them, see “The Antiquities of Cahokia, or Monk’s Mound’

Upon taking these curious old burial vases from the place where they had rested for ages, it was like exhuming a museum of natural history in ceramics ; for these were the shapes of animals, birds, reptiles, fishes, and aflmost all animated nature, together with the shapes of From Cahoki Mound. ithe human form. Among them were several vases adorned with the dragon heads.”

This is a realistically sculpted creature, posed withn a frog, it is certainly not a lizard and its teeth and head indicate that it is a carnivorous reptile. Quite frequently, such a creature is laabeled a dragon, and if not then a crocodile or alligator. This creature is clearly not one of those. It appears to be a lifelike depiction of a theropod dinosaur; a species similar to the allosaurus, t-rex or Carnotaurus. Are those horns on the top of its head or are those prominent eye ridges as depicted in a number of t-rex renditions. Keep this in mind; the piece you see here may have been done by an eyewitness.

We have compared here the Mound Builder creature with several examples of meat eating theropod dinosaurs. In our minds, the Carnotaurus, to date found in South America, most closely matches the Mound Builder artrifact.

Carnotaurus (pronounced /?k?rn??t?r?s/; meaning “meat-eating bull”, referring to its distinct bull-like horns (Latin carne = flesh + Greek tauros = bull) was a large predatory dinosaur, with horns vaguely resembling a bull’s. Only one species, Carnotaurus sastrei has been described so far. Carnotaurus lived in Patagonia, Argentina (La Colonia Formation) during the Campanian to the Maastrichtian stage of the Late Cretaceous, and was discovered by José Bonaparte, who has uncovered many other South American dinosaurs. Wikipedia

Allosaurus and T-rex are North American dinosaurs according to science.

Mound Builder Aquatic Reptile: Champ or Ogopogo

The Tusayan people are named after a ruin located in the Grand canyon National park in Arizona. These ancestral Puebloan people lived in the area until 1,000 years ago archaeologists believe. In American Anthropologist, Volume 5, January 1892, in an article entitled “ A Few Tusayan Pictographs” is a very interesting pictograph showing four long necked creatures.


Aquatic reptiles became extinct more than 65 million years ago as did the long necked sauropods according to science. The pictographs were thought to be a little as a thousand years old, possibly several thousand but certainly not millions of years old. Could science be wrong or are the more benign “nothing to see here, move it along” explanations of the archeologists satisfactory?

Here we compare the Mound Builder pictographs with; an ancient Roman “sea monster” and with several other classic sea or lake monsters.

Here’s what the author wrote about the pictograph in question:

“It will be noticed in examining the cut of these four pictographs of the great serpent that one is about horizontal and the other three erect. It will also be noticed that the horizontal specimen has a zigzag outline, as if in motion, which the others do not have. They are undoubtedly, however, figures of the same mythological personage”.

Ogopogo and Champ


“Ogopogo or Naitaka (Salish: n’ha-a-itk, “lake demon”) is the name given to a cryptid lake monster reported to live in Okanagan Lake, in British Columbia, Canada. Ogopogo has been allegedly seen by First Nations people since the 19th century. The most common description of Ogopogo is a forty- to fifty-foot-long (12 to 15 m) sea serpent. It has supposedly been photographed and even been caught on tape.” …Wikipedia


“Champ, or Champy is the name given to a reputed lake monster living in Lake Champlain, a natural freshwater lake in North America, partially situated across the U.S.-Canada border in the Canadian province of Quebec and partially situated across the Vermont-New York border. While there is no scientific evidence for the cryptid’s existence, there have been over 300 reported sightings. The legend of the monster is considered a draw for tourism in the Burlington, Vermont area.”… Wikipedia

The creature appears to be drawn with a beard which is typical of some “sea monsters” and drawn with a type of headcrest or ears.

I’m not suggesting that this creature is either Ogopogo or Champ but that it could represent a tyoe of sea or lake monster that has been seen and described by even the Romans and Greeks and by ancient and recent North and South Americans.

It appears that neither theropod dinosaurs or aquatic reptiles died out millons of years ago and were instead seen and memorialized by ancient peoples.

After The Flood; A Graveyard Planet: Fossil Fuels and Facile Fools, False Dates and Phosphates. We Stand on the Shoulders of Those Who Came Before Us –but Also on Their Heads, Backs, Stomachs and Feet! (and etc.)

Church of Darwin, Dinosaurs in Literature, Giants in Those Days, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Mar 01 2010

Prologue

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of the wisdom of man, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of unbelief.

It was the best of times from the standpoint of men (or so they thought) because they were eating and drinking, singing, dancing, partying, getting married and doing anything and everything they wanted. Every evil desire was realized. They acknowledged no master and no God; the way many live today.

It was the worst of times because within a few days every living thing that had the breath of life in it would be dead-except for Noah and the seven righteous people with him-together with the animals they had brought with them on the ark. Much of the creation that God had called good and very good had been destroyed-and the bodies of man and of the animals and the dead vegetation in and out of the seas still litter this planet-if one knows where to look.

Introduction

If you’re fortunate enough to own one of the newer computers with a multi-core processor, perhaps a dual or a quad core chip, congratulations; you are utilizing on a daily basis technology near the summit of man’s technical ability. Some of the newer microchips now use 45 nanometer scale technology that can pack over a billion transistors on a single chip.

It would be common for science to refer to the advancing capability of these wonders of man’s technical prowess as the “evolution” of the micro-chip—but of course, these chips have all been intelligently designed. No one could be convinced that either the microchips that drive computers nor the software that instructs them came about by accident or that they were self created over time-but this is what we are asked to believe about much more complex, intelligently designed artifacts like DNA –and like life itself.

Photo, right:Dude, I’m getting a Dale!

(Article Here) We are truly “fearfully and wonderfully made! Psalm 139

The objective evidence from astronomy, cosmology, biology and geology verify that the universe and everything in it was created by God. However, science, the media and the educational system continue to barrage us with Materialistic, Atheistic approaches to our origins — which thankfully the majority of the American people continue to reject. According to a recent survey, the majority of us still accept the literal truth of the Bible.

I was struck by a recent Nova program that began by stating unequivocally in stentorian tones that the Great Flood was nothing but a mere myth –perhaps inspired by a huge, regional flood of the Black Sea. Later that night they were no doubt seeking pledges but I had already changed channels. It’s no wonder that Atheists and Materialists refuse to accept the truth of a world-wide flood; at that time in the planet’s past every single non-believer on earth perished.

Photo: The Deluge by Gericault. Click to Zoom

Of all that lived prior to the flood; we have burned their bodies or their remains (flora and fauna) for thousands of years for fuel. We utilize them in our cars and our machines. Their Detritus in their current forms are used to build houses and walls and streets. The chemicals in their bones are used to fertilize our crops and gardens. Their remains may even be worn around our necks or on our fingers as jewelry.

This planet is a graveyard and the life that existed before the flood is buried or entombed all around us.

We should not be surprised at this. As the Bible tells us; “By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” Gen 3:19

We stand on the shoulders of those who died before the flood, but also on their heads, backs, stomachs and feet-etc…..

From Dust to Dust

If there really was a worldwide flood, why don’t we find more fossils of human beings I’m sometimes asked? If you think about this present world covered by 70% water, you’d actually expect that marine creatures and seaweed would represent the largest biological mass that would be left as evidence from a worldwide flood. Then, from the land the second greatest mass you’d expect would be from the flora; the trees and plants that largely cover the earth. After that, the fauna, with the mass of all of God’s creatures including the insects dwarfing that of humans. Humans should represent a small percent of the total mass of biological remains.

Photo:Belle Toute Lighthouse on one of the Seven Sisters Chalk Cliffs near Sussex, England. Chalk is a sedimentary rock of organic origin.

Microbes and Man, 4th Edition, 2000, confirms that the mass of microscopic life has been calculated to be on the order of 5 to 25 times the mass of all other animal life.

The importance of all this is that much of the sedimentary rock on earth is bound together by the bodies of these creatures apparently borne across the planet by water and distributed in alluvial (water borne) deposits.

Now chalk is a soft, white, porous sedimentary rock, and a form of limestone. Science simply says that its primarily made up of calcite, without acknowledging that the source of the calcite is organic.

“Let us again return to the crust of the earth, and inquire in another direction what part minute organization of a different kind has performed in rearing up its massive substance. Let the reader mentally follow the track we shall point out to him, and endeavor, if he can, to estimate the cubic contents of such a mass of solid matter, if he would gain an idea of the importance of microscopic life in the work of creation.

Commencing at Dover, or Beachy Head, follow the course of the North or the South Downs up to their point of junction in the east of Hampshire, where they are joined by another branch of similar downs commencing near Weymouth.

These three chalk ranges enclose an area which includes all the north of Hampshire, and the larger portion of the south of Wiltshire. Yet this is not all. By the Marlborough Downs, by the Ilsey Downs and the Whitehorse Hills, the chalk runs into Oxfordshire, and continues, with some interruptions, through Buckinghamshire, Bedfordshire, and Cambridgeshire into Norfolk. Neither is this all.

The lofty cliffs between Cromer and Huntanton, the Wolds of Lincolnshire and those of Yorkshire, all are chalk. Southward, let the tourist say how much of the Isle of Wight is chalk. Chalk along the coast, chalk in hills, chalk in valleys—chalk forms the lnkpen Beacon, Wilts, a thousand feet above the sea, chalk forms the Needles crumbling into it; all is chalk, nothing but chalk—chalk and flints !

Yet stay—take up a pinch of the white mass, lay a particle of it no bigger than a pin’s head on the field of the microscope, and what a startling spectacle discloses itself! The dust is thick with organized forms. All is shells and corals! The Needles are shells and corals—the Downs are shells and corals! Underneath the thin green turf of the Wolds lie shells and corals. The great Humber rolls over shells and corals. The white walls of England are—shells and corals. Shakespeare’s cliff is shells and corals. The waters which sweep round Margate, Ramsgate, and Dover, white as milk, are full of the remains of shells and corals! A million of shells and corals lie in a cubic inch of chalk!

What inconceivable millions in a hill, and what in the whole range ! And these of the most beautiful forms, all once replete with life! How large a part of England’s southern and western coast is made up of individual beings more minute than a pin’s point! These minute beings—and the idea is still more strange—approach us in our homes. Do we whitewash our ceilings, it is with shells and corals! Shells and corals, it is said, come to us in our London milk ! Shells and corals form the beautiful glazing of a lady’s card, and oftentimes the ornamental covering of her work-boxes or show-books !

The doctor sends us shells and corals in his physic, and the confectioner, as we are told, in his comfits! The microscope, skillfully applied, makes all this plain, and reveals to us in a language appreciable to the eye, though barely capable of being fully comprehended by the mind, how vast a share in the operations of nature the Creator has assigned to beings so infinitely minute”….W. Buckland, The Living Age , Volume 28 The microscope and its Wonders.

Science tries to escape the implication of all this by teaching us that the earth is billions of years old and that these formations were built up minutely through the ages. But how does science explain cliffs thousands of feet high, extended areas of the earth and mountains 25,000 high cemented together and composed of marine shells and coral?

Fossil Graveyards and Caves Full of Bones

By and large, fossils are not something that are being formed today. Certainly not in the profusion in which they have been found in the strata of the earth. To make a fossil, an animal that dies needs not to be eaten by predators or subject to decaying effects of the sun or the wind. They needed to be buried very quickly.

In the Karoo Bone yards or Karoo Supergroup in South Africa, there are an estimated 800 billion mostly vertebrate fossils—largely swamp dwelling reptiles. Composed mainly of sandstones and shales deposited in shallow water, the Karoo can be 20,000 feet thick. The fossil-rich beds stretch out for hundreds of miles.

What kind of catastrophe could cause this kind of devastation and leave behind this many fossils in sandstone and shale, two types or sedimentary rock or organic origin?

Here’s what evolutionists say; “The high degree of articulation of the skeletal remains and the preservation of delicate bones in situ suggest that the animals were either rapidly buried or died in a place protected from weathering and agents of dispersal. Two hypotheses are possible to explain this multitaxon aggregation: trapping in a floodplain gully followed by immediate burial or shelter-sharing. The latter hypothesis is favored after the analysis of the fossil evidence recorded in the South African Karoo Basin…. Fernando Abdalajuan Carlos Cisneros And Roger M.H. Smith2

The authors here considered and discarded a local flood but how could this many fossils be left by a local flood? Some bird fossils have also been found there; why should birds be the victims of local flooding? Evolutionists look for alternative explanations because they have no choice. The global flood explanation is untenable.

Of course, no one in Noah’s time believed in a global flood either.

“….Massive fossil graveyards of dinosaurs still exist in other locations the world over. The Morrison beds in North America, the dinosaur beds in Montana, in the Rocky Mountains, in Alberta, the Dakotas, China, Colorado, Utah, Africa, etc., etc., contain literally millions of dinosaur fossils piled together in tremendous heaps.

Ten thousand Hadrosaurs were found on Egg Mountain, Montana alone, jumbled together in what appears to have been a mass death. The Flood produced the Sicilian hippopotamus beds, the fossils of which are so extensive that they are mined as a source of charcoal; the great mammal beds of the Rockies; the dinosaur beds of the Black Hills and the Rockies, as well as in the Gobi Desert; the fish beds of the Scottish Devonian stratum, the Baltic amber beds, Agate Spring Quarry in Nebraska, and hundreds more”….Evolution Cruncher

A bone bed has been discovered south of Tampa, Florida. Paleontologists say it is one of the richest fossil deposits ever found in the United States. It has yielded the bones of more than 70 species of animals, birds, and aquatic creatures.

About 80% of the bones belong to plains animals, such as camels, horses, mammoths, etc. Bears, wolves, large cats, and a bird with an estimated 30-foot wingspan are also represented. Mixed in with all the land animals are sharks’ teeth, turtle shells, and the bones of fresh and salt water fish. The bones are all smashed and jumbled together, as if by some catastrophe. The big question is how bones from such different ecological niches—plains, forests, and ocean—came together in the same place. … Armstrong, Carol; “Florida Fossils Puzzle the Experts,”

Many fossil graveyards are high up in mountainous areas. In Sicily, for example, four thousand feet above sea level on Mount Etna, there are two caves crammed with the bones of thousands of hippopotamus in each grave. On the island of Malta there are lions, tigers, mammoths, birds, beavers, hippopotamus and foxes all mixed together.

“Back in middle 1940s Dr. Frank C. Hibben, Prof. of Archeology at the University of New Mexico mounted an expedition to Alaska to look for human remains. The remains he found were not human, but what he found was anything but evidence of gradualism or uniformitarianism.

Instead he found miles of muck filled with the remains of mammoth, mastodon, several kinds of bison, horses, wolves, bears and lions. Just north of Fairbanks, Hibbens and his associates watched as bulldozers pushed the half-melted muck into sluice boxes for the extraction of gold.

Animal tusks and bones rolled up in front of the blades “like shavings before a giant plane”. The carcasses were found in all attitudes of death, most of them “pulled apart by some unexplainable prehistoric catastrophic disturbance” (Hibben, 1946).

The evidence of the violence of nature combined with the stench of rotting carcasses was staggering. The ice fields containing these remains stretched for hundred of miles in every direction (Hibben, 1946). Trees and animals, layers of peat and mosses, twisted and mangled together like some giant mixer had jumbled them some 10,000 years ago, and then froze them into a solid mass.”

“The picture in Siberia and northern Europe is no different. Just north of Siberia whole islands are formed of the bones of Pleistocene animals swept northward from the continent into the frigid waters of the Arctic Ocean.

It has been estimated that some ten million animals lay buried along the rivers of northern Siberia. Thousands of tusks formed a massive ivory trade for the master carvers of China, all from the remains of the frozen mammoths and mastodons of Siberia.

The famous Beresovka mammoth first drew attention to the preserving properties of being quick-frozen when buttercups were found in its mouth and undigested food in its stomach. This was no gradual event–it had to be sudden!”.. Atlantisquest.com

    Bones in Caves

A phenomenon that has been seen all over the world particularly in caves located at higher elevations is best explained only by a global flood. Profusions of plants, bones of land, sea and freshwater creatures, carnivores, and prey animals all mixed together violently. A local flood or calamity does not explain the violence evident by the broken bones. In life, that particular collection of creatures would never have shared a location together. The inclusion of bird fossils proves that the calamity was not simply a local one since birds would have been able to escape. Here is an article describing one of these mystery caves.

Heaps of Fossils in a Cave
Scientists Interested in Queer Find Near Philadelphia
Remains of Both Animal and Plant Life Mixed in Strange Confusion- Theories as to Their Origins
New York Times, November 25, 1895

Fossil Fuels and Facile Fools*

Here is the official, science approved explanation for fossil fuels like oil and gas. Note how much it seems like a creationist explanation; except for the time scale:

“Fossil fuels or gas fuels are fuels formed by natural resources such as anaerobic decomposition of buried dead organisms. The age of the organisms and their resulting fossil fuels is typically millions of years, and sometimes exceeds 650 million years. These fuels contain a high percentage of carbon and hydrocarbons.

Fossil fuels range from volatile materials with low carbon:hydrogen ratios like methane, to liquid petroleum to nonvolatile materials composed of almost pure carbon, like anthracite coal. Methane can be found in hydrocarbon fields, alone, associated with oil, or in the form of methane clathrates. It is generally accepted that they formed from the fossilized remains of dead plants and animals by exposure to heat and pressure in the Earth’s crust over hundreds of millions of years. …Fossil fuels are non-renewable resources because they take millions of years to form, and reserves are being depleted much faster than new ones are being formed. “ Wikipedia

Creationists know when the vast amount of animal and plant remains became available for this process-after the global flood. It was a catastrophic process that did not take hundreds of millions of years. Oil has been drilled for all over the world for hundreds of years. Can you imagine how many dead creatures and dead plant remains would be needed to make just one barrel of oil?

The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge by itself is estimated to contain up to 16 billion barrels of oil. There is just one time in the history of this planet when trillions of pounds of dead animals and plants were available to produce oil captured in sedimentary rock the world over.

“Most scientists agree that hydrocarbons (oil and natural gas) are of organic origin. A few, however, maintain that some natural gas could have formed deep within the earth, where heat melting the rocks may have generated it inorganically. Nevertheless, the weight of evidence favors an organic origin, most petroleum coming from plants and perhaps also animals, which were buried and fossilized in sedimentary source rocks. The petroleum was then chemically altered into crude oil and gas.

The chemistry of oil provides crucial clues as to its origin. Petroleum is a complex mixture of organic compounds. One such chemical in crude oils is called porphyrin: Petroleum porphyrins … have been identified in a sufficient number of sediments and crude oils to establish a wide distribution of the geochemical fossils.

They are also found in plants and animal blood.”… Answers in Genesis

The biological origin of oil and the proof that millions of years are unnecessary for its formation are made clear by the successful attempts to make fossil fuels from organic ingredients. For instance, It is in fact possible to make oil from algae, although the cost of production can sometimes be quite high, when compared with the cost of conventional oil production. The advantage of oil from algae, of course, is that algae is a renewable resource, making biofuels from algae very close to being carbon neutral, and as the algae grows, it actually contributes in a positive way to the environment, filtering out toxins and generating oxygen….Wisegeek

    Coal

Photo: Ed Conrad’s find. A human (pre-flood?) skull encased in rock asociated with coal formation

(American Chemical Society) Coal formation associated with the mass extinction of over 70% of all Plants and Animals.

“The volcanic eruptions thought responsible for Earth’s largest mass extinction — which killed more than 70 percent of plants and animals 250 million years ago — is still taking lives today. That’s the conclusion of a new study showing, for the first time, that the high silica content of coal in one region of China may be interacting with volatile substances in the coal to cause unusually high rates of lung cancer. The study appears in ACS’ Environmental Science & Technology.

A seam of coal formed 250 million years ago during the worst extinction event on record appears to be responsible for the anomalously high lung cancer death rates among women in the rural Chinese county of Xuan Wei in Yunnan Province.

It’s long been known that the lung cancer mortality rates in the region were the worst in the world among female nonsmokers and some anomaly in the coal had been suspected. Lung cancer mortality in the region is up to 20 times the Chinese average. But it’s only in recent years that scientists have focused in on silica in the form of very fine quartz as the mineral that makes burning the stuff so deadly.”

Coal is itself a sedimentary rock. Coal is similar to oil in that it originally came from living organisms. In the case of coal, though, it is thought that those living organisms were plants. However, as Ed Conrad’s finds in Pennsylvanian coal (including a human skull) show that, humans and animals also played their parts in the formation of coal. It has been estimated that there are over 847 billion tons of proven coal reserves worldwide. This means that there is enough coal to last us over 130 years at current rates of production…World Coal Production

Science claims that the material for the formation of this fossil fuel came from swamps—that is the facile explanation that lets them sleep at night, but the amount and distribution of coal resources in the world testifies to the truth that the animal and plant matter which formed coal were widespread and massive all over the planet.

Humans and animals are carbon based and the fossil fuels have high percentages of carbon. Some speculate that diamonds, the hardest form of carbon, may have organic origins as well.

Phosphates and False Dates

Photo: Nauru is a phosphate rock island, with deposits close to the surface, which allow for simple strip mining operations. This island was a major exporter of phosphate starting in 1907 and it has been left decimated by mining operations. Phosphates source is organic; bones and teeth of dead creatures. Click to zoom

Next to calcium, phosphorus is the most abundant mineral in the body. These two important nutrients work closely together to build strong bones and teeth. About 85% of phosphorus in the body can be found in bones and teeth, but it is also present in cells and tissues throughout the body.

Phosphorus is an important agricultural fertilizer, an essential element in metabolism and the transfer of biological energy, a component of matches, an ingredient in pyrotechnic applications, and besides of considerable scientific interest.

The origin of phosphorus around the world is primarily organic. It comes primarily from the bones and teeth and cells of dead creatures. The carnage after the great flood would have provided the greatest source of phosphorus that could be imagined-but science dates their formation to hundreds of millions of years along with that of associated sedimentary rocks.

Phosphate rock is produced in some 40 countries, but 12 countries account for 92 percent of the world’s production Approximately 144 to 150 million tons of phosphate rock were produced annually between 1995 and 1997. Igneous deposits in Russia, Brazil, and the Republic of South Africa accounted for about 17 million tons of production in 1997. The remaining production (about 133 million tons or 89 percent) was from sedimentary deposits…Better Crops: World Production of Phosphates

    The Official Explanation for Florida Phosphates

“Florida’s phosphate deposits are made mostly of ocean animals. They began to form millions of years ago. At that time most of Florida was under water. About 5-10 million years ago, biological and chemical changes changed phosphate from the ocean to the phosphate like that we mine today. This phosphate deposit is huge. It stretches across the Florida. It also stretches up to the eastern Atlantic coast all the way to the Chesapeake Bay.

People don’t really know how all this phosphate formed, but they have a theory. Many scientists think that this is how it happened. During the geological time called Miocene, ocean water started getting into higher grounds. …There was a lot of life in the ocean, so the ocean was rich in nutrients and phosphate. This water was now at the seal level. Then water started precipitating, and the sediment full of phosphate was left. Florida’s limestone was now full of teeth, bones, and waste of ocean animals. In Miocene land started to come out.

..Many years passed. During the Pleistocene, the ocean levels dropped. Florida’s land was out of the ocean now. When Florida’s land was out of the water, millions of fossilized bones were found in the pits in which we mine phosphate today. The bones of the pre-historic animals from the Pleistocene can be found in the top phosphate layer. Below that we can find the fossils of ocean animals from the Miocene period. Some animal bones we can find are dugong, mastodons, saber tooth tiger, whales, camels, and three toed horses. No dinosaurs, though! Florida land got out of the ocean about 25 million years ago – dinosaurs were extinct 65 million years ago”. …ThinkQuest

Photo: Geologist’s F.S. Holmes book, right “The Phosphate Rock of South Carolina and the Great Carolina Marl Bed”, 1870″ was one of the sources for Watson’s book. Holmes said he found bones of dinosaurs as well as human implements and human bones-including a “giant” human thigh bone. Available Online Here

Man, dinosaurs and mammals together: Phophate rocks/bone phosphates of South Carolina : an analysis of their occurrence, origin, importance and instruction for the creation/evolution controversy by John Allen Watson 2001

Here is an early article describing the Florida phosphate beds and will serve to end this section ;

A Wilderness of Bones; Where Elephants, Tigers, and Mastodons Lie Buried; Their Bony Frames Are Now Called Florida Phosphates ..New York Times, March 26 1892

.”..Nearly half of Florida is marked out as a phosphate bed. The phosphate lands begin in the northern tier of counties. Tallahassee, the capital is in the center of a great deposit. In a general way the deposits begin at the mouth of the Apalachicola River and circle around northward and eastward, underlying Tallahassee, Monticello and Live Oak, then running southward, all on the west side of the State, through Ocaia and Barstow, all the way down to Punta Rassa.

… the bone phosphate of lime is nothing more nor less than the decomposed bones, or sometimes the guano of long dead animals and birds, solidified into soft rock…

..Where did so many bones come from? It looks as though at some prehistoric time all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air and all the leviathans of the deep had gathered for some unknown purpose in the state of Florida, and had been overtaken by some great calamity and left their bones there. Some of the bones are still in large pieces, others wholly intact and so well preserved that their species can be distinguished without difficulty. ..The bones and teeth of elephants…bones of mammoths which must have been carried to Florida in a glacier…the manatee, seacow…immense shark teeth some weighing more than a pound, ..the porpoise, the glyptodont, teeth of horses, tigers and crocodiles..

..Some of the deposits are 25, 30 feet thick and in some others, the bottom has not been found—not all pure bone, but bone and sand. There are similar deposits in many parts of the world.”….A Wilderness of Bones..

It Was People Like You Who Made the Ocean Salty, My Friend

The salts in sea and ocean water are simply dissolved solids and minerals of “everything” in weak solution. Ocean water is a complex combination of dissolved salts and dead biological matter. Science doesn’t completely understand the processes that led to salty oceans and seas but quite naturally believe that it took millions of years. If you are a Christian, you probably don’t believe that the earth has been around for millions of years but science needs numbers like that to try to give time for their theories to work.

Of course, if the world was really as old as science says, the oceans would now be thousands or millions of times saltier than it is today. Sea and ocean water is approximately 220 times saltier than fresh water. Scientists want to know; what is the origin of the sea and of its “salts”? And how does one explain ocean water’s remarkably uniform chemical composition?

“If all the salt in the sea could be extracted and spread evenly over the entire earth it is estimated that it would form a layer more than 500 feet thick-comparable in height to a 40 story office building.”… Why is the Ocean Salty?” By Herbert Swenson

I believe that the answer to the question that non-believers pose about salt water fish during the flood is—there were no salt-water fish before the flood—some fresh water species were able to adapt to salt water.

From whence did this incredible amount of material come? It probably comes from many sources, among them the detritus of people like you, of the dead animals and decaying plant and vegetation on the earth after the great flood.

The Coral Clock

Microscopic coral and shells provide the glue in the form of silicate that acts as the glue or bonding agent for sedimentary rocks the world over. Since coral are marine creatures there worldwide distribution over the entire planet is best explained by a global flood extending to high altitudes.

Dr. T. Wayland Vaughn of the U.S. Geological survey made some interesting discoveries about coral that live in vast colonies. He tested them using various experiments and determined that they were meat eaters exclusively. The living coral is a branched colony of individuals connected together with their soft bodies encased in shells. It’s the limey silicate shells that bond together when the animals die and build up together to create reefs.

At the rate of upward growth he observed in the reefs of the West Indies it would take from 6,531 to 7,620 years for the formation of a reef 160 feet thick in one of the species that he examined. Another he found could build that same reef in 1,800 years and still another in around 1,000 years. Coral supposedly evolved in the Ordovician, between 488 and 443 million years ago.

Taking Mr. Vaughn’s 1923 data and extrapolating it we find that the coral are young earth corals (YEC’s). If the slowest coral reef building species he studied would take 7, 620 years to build a 150 foot thick reef then it could build a reef approximately 20,000 feet high in 1 million years, 60,000 feet high in 3 million years or 200,000 feet high in only 10 million years. The coral say that the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

Conclusion:

Photo: After the Deluge by Francis Danby 1837. Click to enlarge

The evidence of the death and destruction caused by the Global Flood is all around us. Some of those processes continue to this day allowing science to hypothesize that what may be going on a small scale accounts for the planet sized anomalies that we have here discussed.

There have been local floods in the world. Coral continues to grow to this day. Perhaps in certain places, dead vegetation and animal bodies are being transformed into coal or oil. In another rare occurrence somewhere on the globe, perhaps an animal dies and is rapidly buried and on its way to being fossilized. The point is, there is no other explantion other than a worldwide flood to satisfactorily explain the source of so many bones that entire islands can be made of phosphate of bone; entire coastlines of organic based chalk, sandstone or limestone; mountains made of microscopic marine creatures; the immense fossil graveyards throughout the world; the huge oil fields and coal deposits and even the saltiness of the ocean. Most of the dry land of the earth is sedimenatary rock which by definition is deposited by water.

Because every living thing with the breath of life in it persished except for Noah and those with him on the ark, this planet is a graveyard holding the bones of that pre-flood world. Their gravestones are of sandstone, quartz, limestone and chalk.

Epilogue

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man”…Matt 24

*The fool has said in his heart there is no God. Psalm 14:1

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UFO and/or Pterosaur Photographed in Nihuil Argentina Above Lake

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Sep 07 2009

Photo:Unidentified Flying Object; Sept. 7, 2009. Click to enlarge.

Versions of this story and a series of blurry, low reso photos appeared in various South American newpaper outlets. The following news story was translated from Diarios De Los Andes.

A gentleman photographed and object that he noted was silent and that was hovering several feet above the lake near the shoreline. One photo in particular has prompted some to suggest that this was a sighting of a fishing/hunting pterosaur.

The other photos in the series do not as clearly support that or any other known object. The pterosaur hypothesis remains viable but unproven given the quality of these photos. One way to also see the other photos as pterosaur is to assume that it is flying drectly away from the viewer with the wings in profile, the long neck visible with the other appendages as legs and traling tail. (But hey, you have eyes) :0)


Photo: “UFO” compared to pterosaur and Ropen. Click to view larger version.

Sooner or later the continued existence of the pterosaur will be a proven fact and when that happens, it will put the “mythology” of the ancients and flying dragons in an interesting context. See Tracking the Ancient Griffin, Modern Monsters and the “Extinct” Pterosaur Through Art, History and Science-…If you haven’t already…s8int.com

See Also:Weird Object over Wichita

He went to fish and says that he saw a UFO
Diarios de lLos Andes, Sept 7, 2009

A resident of the City of Nihuil in Argentina went to fish and encountered and unknown flying object near the shoreline of the dam. He managed to take several photos of the object with his the cellular phone.

This is one of the photos of the series that the fisherman took near the shoreline of the lake. (Top, left)(Images: Newspaper San Rafael)

A man who lives in the town of Nihuil is said to have seen an object that could not identify. He took photos of the object with his cellular phone and he believes that it is a UFO (not identified flying object).

“I saw it and by luck was able to take several photos of it. The fishing fanatic said that he did not want to reveal his identity. According to the story published in the diariosanrafael.com.ar today, the resident of Nihuil saw the object unknown flying over the lake in the late hours of Saturday afternoon.

The man who made “incredible” discovery, at first, did not want anyone to find out about what he had seen. But a friend convinced him to present the news to the press, relates the early riser. ”

He was not afraid during the encounter. Besides he continued, I liked it because they are things that are of interest to me, since I believe that alien life must exist on other planets. He affirmed the sighting in handwritten declarations to thepress. After snapping the images on the telephone, he realized that the unknown object in the sky had disappeared.

This story also told at Diario de Dan Rafael

How Much is That T-Rex in the Window?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 13 2009

Click photo to zoom:

Photo: Right; Hagen Renaker Miniature Ceramic Tyrannosaurus Figurine: $9.00

Left; Pre-Columbian T-rex (not what they call it) from the La Paz, Bolivia, National Archaeological Museum, proving for the One Millionth time* that man and dinosaur coexisted; PRICELESS !

*As to s8int.com specifically; “one millionth” is an exaggeration. Hagen Renaker Miniature Ceramic Tyrannosaurus not available in all states. Applical sales taxes may apply. Pre Columbian figure not for sale. As previously seen in this prior post

“Lost World” of Dinosaurs Survived Mass Extinction?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized | Posted by Chris Parker
May 15 2009

Is science catching up? Our section on Dinosaurs in Ancient Art, History and Literature confirms that dinosaurs lived through the “mass extinction” (flood) and much longer.

Photo: (click Photo for larger size) Left to right: 1)Ancient warriors from Sumatra ride the back of a parasaurolophus. Art of the Ancient Peoples—Toba Batak, Sumatra By Tibor Bodrogi 1972 Translated from the Hungarian. 2) Head (orange-brown) of a “flat-headed dinosaur”, (Hadrosaurine) such as shantungosaurus or iguanadon. Han Dynasty bronze cooking vessel. The Han Dynasty spanned the period of between approximately 200 B.C. to 220 A.D..

3)Sauropod from the Ancient Art of Thailand. 4) Cerotopsian head from that other dinosaur temple. Muktinath Temple was consecrated in 1815 and is famous for its 108 “dragon headed fountain”. This is one of those dragon heads. 5) Man rides an African (Dogon) Ornithopod (“duckbilled”) Dinosaur. Piece is authenticated to the 1800’s. 6)Tyrannosaurus or other theropod. From Popol Voh Museum . Effigy figure Precolumbian.………s8int.com

Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News
(Thanks, Constavlos)
May 1, 2009

An isolated group of dinosaurs somehow survived the catastrophic event that wiped out most of their kind some 65.5 million years ago, a new study suggests.

Dinosaurs of this “lost world,” in a remote region of the U.S. West, may have outlived their doomed relatives by as much as half a million years, according to James Fassett, an emeritus scientist with the U.S. Geological Survey in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Fassett, who has argued for years that some dinosaurs survived the mass extinction, based his latest work on fossils from the San Juan Basin in what is now Colorado and New Mexico.

There, the bones of hadrosaurs, tyrannosaurs, anklyosaurs, and several other species were found together in a sandstone formation that dates to the Paleocene epoch—the time period after the so-called Cretaceous-Tertiary (K-T) extinction event, which is thought to have killed off the dinosaurs.

As with his past research, Fassett’s latest find is likely to continue sparking controversy among paleontologists.

“Every few years someone claims to have [found] Paleocene ‘surviving’ dinosaurs,” said Hans-Dieter Sues, associate director for research and collections at the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History.

But so far, such fossils have eventually turned out to be older remains.

“Unequivocal Evidence”

In his new study, appearing in the April 2009 issue of the journal Palaeontologia Electronica, Fassett argues that a single hadrosaur fossil helps prove that the San Juan dinos really are from the Paleocene.

After previous “survivor” finds, it was determined that the dinosaurs in question, initially entombed in sand or mud, had their bones exposed again later by natural forces such as river erosion.

The bones were then redeposited in younger rock layers, making them appear to belong to an earlier era.

But paleontologists found a concentration of 34 bones from a single hadrosaur in the San Juan Basin sandstone.

“That’s unequivocal evidence I think,” Fassett said. River-washed bones would be widely scattered and also show signs of wear and tear—unlike the current fossils, some of which he describes as “pristine.”

Click Here for the Balance of the Article on Nat Geo

Dinosaurs in the Temple; The Angkor Wat Stegosaur; the Bi-Pedal Dinosaur and Giant Creature at Umm El-Kanatir and Others

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Apr 09 2009

by Chris Parker
Copyright s8int.com 2009

Photo: Umm El-Kanatir art from 400 to 700 A.D.

In wonder we were viewing our Cambodian Stegosaur
When some guy with a monocle burst through the back door

He took out a pen with indelible ink
Said if anyone moves your precious stego’s extinct

We advanced on him slowly, couldn’t believe he would do-it
But then he took his pen and drew a red line clear through it

Alas, poor Stegosaurus, we knew him well
You looked like a dinosaur but now no one can tell

Before making his escape at the back of the residence
He said; Man and dinosaur didn’t coexist, so I’m destroying the evidence

We’ve put together a selection of ancient dinosaur depictions which have in common the fact that they all appear on or within a religious “temple” or cathedral. Currently, one of the most well-known of these depictions is the alleged stegosaurus depiction at the Ta Prohm Temple near Angkor Wat in Cambodia.

This stegosaurus depiction (or so it seems to be) has been debunked in the mind of skeptics by the fairly simple measure of drawing a line through the depiction’s most prominent feature—the armor plating along it’s back.

One can make up their own mind about the depiction as we review it again below. Our section on Dinosaurs in History and Art is extensive enough that we can now categorize the artifacts in a number of different groupings. Although the Cambodian stegosaur may well be the most famous depiction in the world currently, we could argue that there are even more compelling dinosaur depictions at other temple, synagogue or cathedral sites, some of which we review here..

Bi-Pedal Dinosaur and Giant Creature Attack Horse

Umm El-Kanatir
Jewish Synagogue 400-700 A.D.
Excavated in 2007
Source:Dinosaursandman.com

Um el Kanatir (Umm el-Kanater) is an ancient Roman town on the Golan Heights, now an archeological site being developed into an Archaeological Park. The meaning of the name is “mother of the arches”.

The site is named for the water source, a spring that pours from the face of a cliff into three basins carved of stone in antiquity. Each of the basins was surmounted by a Roman monumental arch of cut basalt. It is assumed that the niches between the arches originally held pagan images of the spirit of the waters.

Two of the arches are now in ruins, but one survives intact. They, and the village site, continued to be used into the modern period not as a town but by small numbers of local farmers and shepherds living amid and atop the ruins of the ancient town, sometimes in homes constructed out of ancient blocks of building stone reconstructed into farm houses.

…It is believed that the income generated by the linen industry enabled the villagers to construct the very large sixth-century synagogue. Interestingly, the synagogue appears to have been built on the site of a more modest, fifth century synagogue. The large synagogue was destroyed the catastrophic Golan earthquake of 749.

The building was 18 meters (60 feet) long by 13 meters (43 feet) wide and calculated to have been 12 meters (40 feet) high, making it one of the largest ancient synagogues in the region.

Neither the synagogue nor the town were rebuilt after the earthquake of 749. The synagogue was first identified by Laurence Oliphant and Gottlieb Schumacher in 1884. The surviving elements of the ancient synagogue.

Photo:Umm El-Kanatir art from 400 to 700 A.D. Comparison with Cryolophosaurus and Dilophosaurus, two crested theropod dinosaurs.

Theropod dinosaurs were bi-pedal animals with two much smaller arms which they held close to their chests. They were fiercesome meat eaters like which included tyrannosaurus and giganotosaurus.

The creature depicted joining the fray here is clearly a bi-pedal dinosaur with a distinctive head crest, a terrible aspect, and two huge thighs. The tail can be discerned by those at the site if not from the photos. This depiction also shows that the dinosaur has three toes and a hind claw, just like tyrannosaurus.

The head crest on a theropod dinosaur is somewhat unusual but there are a number of known theropods with a crest, including Cryolophosaurus, meaning “cold crest lizard”). Cryolophosaurus was a large theropod dinosaur, with a bizarre crest on its head that looked like a Spanish comb.

Cryolophosaurus was excavated from Antarctica’s Early Jurassic Hanson Formation (former the upper Falla Formation) by paleontologist Dr. William Hammer in 1991…Wikipedia

Another theropod with a head crest is Dilophosaurus. Both Cryolophosaurus and Dilophosaurus are both shown here in comparison to the dinosaur depictions at Umm El-Kanatir. This depiction may not be of either of these theropod dinosaurs but it clearly is a depiction of a theropod with a distinctive crest.

The “horse” is being directly attacked by a very large creature, possibly a reptile; possibly a feline.

Ceratopsian Dinosaur Depiction at Muktinath Temple
Site of 108 ‘Dragon Headed” Fountains

The Muktinath Temple was consecrated in 1815 A.D by Queen Subarna Prabha, the wife of Rana Bahadur Shah. This temple is built in a Tibetan pagoda style and contains huge brass idols of Lord Vishnu, Shiva, Brahma and Kali. The local name for Muktinath is Chumig Gyatsa….Source: Pilgrimage Tours

On a wall of the temple are 108 “dragon headed” fountains which pilgrims seek out to “cleanse” themselves. Actually, the heads are variously described as; dragons or bulls.

At least one of the heads, as seen here on the left in this photo, is not a dragon or a bull, but instead is an excellent likeness of a ceratopsian dinosaur.

The temple was “consecrated in 1815”. The 108 fountains has been a pilgrimage site for many number of years. Ceratopsian dinosaurs were not really understood in their present form until the late 1800’s to the early 1900’s, some years after the temple was consecrated. In 1887, a pair of ceratopsian horns were identified as horns of an extinct bison.

When was the ceratopsian depiction created? If in or around 1815, how was such an accurate depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur created more than 60 years prior to the accurate depiction of these dinosaurs by science—unless someone had actually seen one alive?

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See Also: Evidence of Sophisticated, Ancient, Unknown Culture in Italy Near Caria