Posts Tagged ‘living dinosaurs’

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2013


“When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; because of his crashings they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins.” Job 41 NKJV

           

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

by Chris Parker
Copyright 2013 C. Parker & S8int.com
Most Recent Prior Article on this topic; No Your Dinosaurs….

Good afternoon.

Dr. Ernst Mayr was a “leading” evolutionary biologist whose work provided a basis for what is known as the “modern synthesis” which is an amalgamation of Darwinian evolution theory and genetics. His work also provided the basis for Niles Eldredge’s and Stephen Jay Gould’s co theory of “punctuated equilibrium” –proposed because those biologists really did believe that “the extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology.”

Following Mayr’s lead they proposed that speciation could take place rapidly in small, isolated groups—where massive evolutionary leaps took place-making transitional fossils difficult to find because they would not exist. In that way they sought to solve a problem that most evolution believing laity don’t even know exists.

This same kind of ‘thought science” wherein motivated materialists scientists create interesting theories to solve or explain away “problems” with Materialist science is performed by; big bang cosmologists with their invisible dark matter and energy and, of course by other physicists who promote string theory (invisible, infinite universes) to explain the amazingly anthropic (man and life friendly) nature of this universe.

But back to Dr. Ernest Mayr; in a debate with Dr. Duane Gish in 1984, Dr. Mayr then a leading voice among evolutionists said the following:

“…creationists have stated that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries in time…Were this momentous statement true the names of its discoverers would thunder down the corridors of time as individuals who made one of the most outstanding discoveries of the twentieth century.”

No doubt, based on his statement Dr. Mayr, who died in 2005, was extremely certain that there were tens of millions of years standing between man and dinosaurs.

As a leading evolutionist and as one upon whose work much of the modern synthesis and neo Darwinism was built he well understood the havoc that would be wrought on materialist beliefs regarding the descent of species and the evolutionary and geological timelines if it could be proved that man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

Nevertheless our plan here at s8int.com today is to prove that Mayr’s “thundering down the corridors of time” should have begun even if this is now the 21st Century.

Toe-tally

The current evolutionary thinking regarding the manus and pes (hands and feet) of dinosaurs is that the fossils found with five fingers and toes are the most ancient dinosaurs and that through evolutionary change more “modern” dinosaurs evolved to have fewer fingers and toes.

This is the same kind of “logic” and thought used to assist in forming the well known but fact free horse evolutionary sequence. One might well wonder why fewer fingers and toes would be considered an evolutionary advancement? Is it a case of “I cried because I had no one finger gloves until I met a man with five fingers”?

Dr. Niles Eldredge, (mentioned above re: punctuated equilibrium) a curator at the American Museum in New York– where by the way the horse evolution series is still being shown said the following:

“There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.” ……Harper’s Magazine, 1985, p60.

The very masculine named Boyce Rensberger, science writer and evolutionist said the following regarding the famous horse series and its accompanying toe-tally ridiculous evolutionary assumptions:

“The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown” . Boyce Rensberger: Houston Chronicle, 5 Nov. 1980, sec. 4, p. 15.

Today it is only high school biology textbook writers and the evolution accepting laity who do not know that the evolutionary horse sequence, a supposed “proof” of the reality of biological evolution is wrong and is not actually supported by the fossil evidence. The same thing will eventually be found to be true of dinosaurs as well.

The dinosaur that we will look at today would have been one of the older dinosaurs according to evolutionary theory making its appearance in pre Columbian art even more of an upset. The other example which will be provided herein today is from a creature said by evolutionists to have lived even before the dinosaurs.

Let’s begin with the thundering down the corridors of time, already.

“265 Million Year Old” Therapsid Pre-Dinosaurs Carved Upon the Roof of the 1300 Year Old Kailashnath Temple (Ellora Caves)

Photo: Suresh.G.Isave – Roof of Kailas Temple, Ellora Caves,India



“Kailashnath Temple, also Kailash or Kail?sa or Kailasanath Temple, is a famous temple, one of the 34 monasteries and temples known collectively as the Ellora Caves, extending over more than 2 km, that were dug side by side in the wall of a high basalt cliff in the complex located at Ellora, Maharashtra, India.

Of these, the Kailasa (cave 16) is a remarkable example of Dravidian architecture on account of its striking proportion; elaborate workmanship architectural content and sculptural ornamentation of rock-cut architecture. It is designed to recall Mount Kailash, the abode of Lord Shiva. It is a megalith carved out of one single rock. It was built in the 8th century by the Rashtrakuta king Krishna I.” ….Wikipedia


Perhaps it is fitting to first look at an absolute dead, lock three dimensional sculpture of four therapsids atop the roof of the Temple at Kailashnath built around the 8th century A.D. Fitting to look at them first because evolutionists believe that they preceded the dinosaurs. Therapsida are a group of synapsids, which supposedly include mammals and their ancestors in the evolutionary scheme. Therapsid dicynodonts appeared on every continent.

These creatures are said by evolutionists to have appeared prior to the evolution of mammals and dinosaurs. We’ll consider the dinosaur “proof” as a second case study.

For comparison purposes we are showing the Ellora “lions” juxtaposed with Moschops, a specific therapsid (perhaps the most well known) whose fossils have been found primarily in South Africa.

As you can see there is a very close resemblance between the modern depictions of a therapsid and the ancient “lions” on the roof of the temple complex. The skull shape and other morphological characteristics, including the bent elbows, body shape etc. make therapsid a good initial identification.

By the way lions do have five toes/fingers on their front paws but the fifth is technically on the wrist and does not make contact with the ground. They do not really look like lions but they do have manes and there was no other ready identification or so it seems. They certainly were not ever going to be identified as therapsids.

In point of fact we have already looked at these creatures and identified them crypto-zoo-archaeologically as representations of dinocephalians like Moschops. What’s diiferent today is that the hands of these animals–God’s creatures are upon us. That is, we found a photo of them with significant enough resolution for us to be able to look at the morphological characteristics of the ancient artists depictions of their manus and pes (hands and feet).

The graphic/photo leading this section is a comparison of the “Ellora Lions” with a depiction of Moschops (top left).
The photo following right conclusively concurs with the therapsid identification. The hands (front feet) of therapsids such as moschops was quite unusual. They had tree-trunk like legs with five toes dispersed around in a semi-circle–exactly what we can clearly see in the combo photos comparing moschops front feet with that of the Ellora lions. In fact the similarities are uncanny, unmistakable and undeniable! These are not lions-they are therapsids very similar to moschops.


If therapsids were depicted 1300 years ago on the roof of the Ellora Cave complex then we need not give credence to evolutionist’s beliefs regarding when these creatures became extinct, what creatures allegedly evolved from which or even what their geological boundaries presumably were.

If the scientific understanding regarding when these creatures lived is off by 250 million years how can one credit anything else science would have to say concerning therapsids?

If you want to recreate this “proof” for yourself, I suggest the following: 1) “Google” or “Bing” search for, “Moschops” and then look at images. Pull down a few images of Moschops that you find expressive of what the creature may have looked like in the view of modern artists.

2)Pull up those photos in a photo editing program. 3)Google image search :”Ellora Caves, roof” or “Kailashnath Temple roof” until you find several showing the “lions”. 4)Download or copy some of those pictures and compare in your photo editing program with Moschops. You should see some very strong similarities between the two sets because the creatures on the roof are in fact therapsids—supposedly extinct tens and tens of millions of years ago.

Next, as an additional “proof” go back to Google and do an image search of Moschops, “feet”, or Moschops “manus” (hands). With a little persistence you will find a drawing or a photo which shows the tree trunk like front legs with five fingers distributed like rose petals in a semi circle around the legs. The toes of this creature are unusual in their shape and distribution and this pattern will be easy to recognize when seen again.

Go back to Google (or Bing) and find a very high resolution of the lion’s feet from the roof of the Ellora complex. This result will be instantly recognizable and conclusive. These creatures can be seen from virtually every angle in various online photographs. The “lions” of the Ellora Caves have all the morphological features of a therapsid dicynodont.

It wouldn’t be that easy to lose 250 million years overnight I’m sure. Darwinists claim that this creature was a mammal-like reptile but given its mammal like external ears and hair perhaps it was a mammal- a fact which in and of itself would destroy the evolution tree.

Photo: Anteosaurus is a therapsid whose fossil’s have been found in India.


Coelacanth aside Darwinists could not possibly be this wrong– you might reason. If after looking at these photos you are still not convinced that the same creature that is represented online as a therapsid dicynodont is the same creature with the same matching manus and pes (hands and feet)and not a bit of doubt was created then you might want to consider the following:

Your belief in the Darwinian system and all its attendant precepts, corollaries, speculations and just so stories may not be evidenced based. Perhaps your belief in this system is “faith” based after all and there is no “evidence” pro or con which could persuade you that man and dinosaur ever co-existed or that the “extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology”.

You may be a “true believer”?

           

700 Year Old Plumbate Vessel Features A Dinosaur with Hands and Feet Clearly Depicted


“Regarding the timing of this vessel, Garduño said that this is late-characterized by its decorative variant cutaway designs are distinguished by their angular strokes a stiff-pot Iguanas Polychrome type, which is one of the components ceramic diagnostics Ixcuintla cultural phase (1100-1350 AD), Middle Postclassic, which represents the later stage in the long sequence of regional development Aztatlán culture.

This is extremely significant if we consider that the leading specialists in the study of iconic ceramic codex type Mixteca-Puebla style, agree that this appeared in the central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) during the Late Postclassic (1250-1521 AD), and even at a later date to 1300 AD in the Oaxacan Mixteca”.. Source:Puerta Norte Acaponeta http://elblogpuertanorte.blogspot.com/2013/05/recupera-el-centro-inah-nayarit.html

Photo: iguanodon with “Hands”


Plumbate ware was manufactured by the ancient Toltecs and is found all around Central America. It was quite frequently orange in color or glossy with incised art.

I have looked at quite a number of pieces of pre Columbian art. Upon initial inspection (FIG 1)I thought that it was perhaps the head of a dinosaur projecting from the vessel but like a number of those pieces that we’ve examined on s8int.com, I wondered if it would be convincing to the true believers or rather the true Unbelievers.


Then as I examined the incision I noticed that it appeared to have elbows and a hand with a number of fingers–with a particularly prominent thumb or possibly a thumb claw. Noting the teeth I thought it most probably a meat-eater and so set to work researching dinosaur fingers and toes etc.. Of course I also initially looked at the dinosaurs of Central and South America.



Dinosaurs with five fingers (or so it appears to have) with the teeth of a theropod dinosaur are supposed to be some of the oldest dinosaurs. “Basal theropods”-and of course I believe in no such thing.. and other dinosaurs with five or four fingers (the depiction appears to be five fingers with only the knuckle of one of the fingers showing) include certain theropods, famously, iguanosaurus and plateosaurus. FIG 2 shows a comparison between the hand of plateosaurus, left, the “hand” of the artifact, center and iguanosaurus, right. Baryonx, a European dinosaur with South American “cousins” in the spinosaurid family is shown in the photo at the top of this article due to its prominent thumb claw- similar to that depicted on the plumbate artifact. FIG 2A shows the upturned hand of the artifact compared with the upturned hand of iguanosaurus with his well known thumb claw.

“The most primitive dinosaurs in the famous theropod group (that later included Tyrannosaurus rex) had five “fingers.” Later theropods had three…” Live Science


After quite a bit of research I was able to find an additional photograph of this artifact and thus was able to see in some detail the artist’s rendering of both the hands and feet of the animal depicted. These fingers and toes make it a certainty that it is a dinosaur that is being depicted by the artist and even provides clues as to the specific species of dinosaur that the artist was able to interact with.



The complete thoroughness of the artist’s rendition of this dinosaur indicates that he/she was familiar with this creature and that he/she had specific morphological knowledge of how the creature moved and how it looked. The dinosaur being depicted is apparently bi-pedal and the artist’s sculpture of how that creature moved is exactly how modern artists might have depicted a bi-pedal dinosaur.

The new photo shows the creature from the other side. What’s clear is that what we are looking at on the other side is a five, possibly four fingered dinosaur hand. The two sides are not identical and the new photo provides details of the elbow, the hand, and the rear feet (See FIG 6). It appears from this side that the hand is represented as three extended fingers and two knuckles.



I believe that the creature’s reptilian head and aspect along with its meat eating dinosaur teeth if I may– comfortably place it in the dinosaur realm for those with open minds.

Spend a few minutes Googling iguana hands or lizard hands as well as the hands of dinosaurs and the conclusion will be all but inescapable. In the end I’ve moved away from the iguanodon identification because of the teeth of this dinosaur. The teeth are of different sizes with very large teeth at the front. A dinosaur that meets the qualifications of being a meat eater, with five fingers and heterodontal (different sized) (See FIG 7) teeth with relatives found in South America is the heterodontosaurus.

Photo: Plumbate dinosaur depiction compared to skeleton of heterodontosaurus FIG 5.



Heterodontosauridae (“different-toothed lizards”) is a family of early ornithischian dinosaurs that were likely among the most basal (primitive) members of the group. Although their fossils are rare, they lived around the globe beginning in the late Triassic Period, and a few late-surviving species persisted into the Early Cretaceous.

Heterodontosaurids were fox-sized dinosaurs less than 2 meters (6.6 ft) in length, including a long tail. They are known mainly for their characteristic teeth, including enlarged canine-like tusks and cheek teeth adapted for chewing, analogous to those of Cretaceous hadrosaurids. Their diet was herbivorous or possibly omnivorous.

Manidens is a genus of heterodontosaurid dinosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Patagonia. Fossils have been found from the Cañadon Asfalto Formation in Chubut Province, Argentina, dating to the Bajocian…Wikipedia



In the next few slides we compare the ancient, pre Columbian artifact with Ceratosaurus and Herrerasaurus. Ceratosaurus because it is a “basal” theropod with an interesting fingers that also had some interesting “head” features such as a snout horn and other protuberances on its head which might incline one to consider it as the animal being depicted. However, assuming that the artist had an actual creature in mind, the teeth did not appear to match.

On the whole though I believe that the ceratosaurus depiction assists us in seeing how close the ancient depiction is to that of modern dinosaur depictions.

The other depiction is of Herrerasaurus. Herrerasaurus had claws similar to those of the plateosaurus above (FIG 2).

Herrerasaurus was given the name “Herrera lizard” because it was found by an Andean goat farmer named Victorino Herrera…Wikipedia.

Photo: Artifact compared to Heterodontosaurus.



The ancient artifact from central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) was likely manufactured 600 t0 700 years ago during the Late Postclassic period between (1250-1521 AD. The artist clearly represented the hands, fingers, head, dentition and rear feet of a bi-pedal dinosaur which had to be living at the time. It was a dinosaur (animal) that he was very familiar with. We can match the fingers and toes with several species of dinosaur though we will admit that a final identification as to species is inconclusive. A dinosaur identification is however; conclusive.

In his review of Carl Sagan’s last book in his review entitled “Billions and Billions of Demons”, Harvard university evolutionist Richard Lewontin said the following.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ”

One can select more than one response in the Poll below.

Convinced that Man and Dinosaur Lived Together?

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I love that quote because it is so honest. Never mind the scientific process we take these positions because we refuse A priori to believe in God or in anything which would tend to prove that God exists. Unfortunately for Lewontin et. al., they have not succeeded. The “Divine foot” has always been completely through the door.

The evidence demonstrated by these two artifacts shows that never mind the Divine Foot, Lewontin et. al.,- the hand of God’s dinosaur is upon thee as is the whole creation.

Despite Coelacanth Does the Evolutionary Dogma Re Man and Dinosaur Remain Unshaken?
Or, Do Those Dogon Antique Dinosaurs of West Africa Prove Science is Myth-Staken

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 13 2013


Photo:Antique Dogon People’s Sculpture at the Metropolitan Museum of Art;Details and ID comparisons below.

The coelacanth is a species of fish which had been thought by evolutionists to have evolved 400 million years ago (before the dinosaurs) and to have become extinct 80 million years ago. That was until living specimens began to be found in 1938.

Question; what percentage wrong were evolutionary scientists about Coelacanth? I mean if you believed that they were a magical fish that would take you direct to Atlantis-on their backs if you said the secret word, you would be wrong- but really not that much more wrong than evolutionists had been. They believed up until 1938 that coelacanth walked on the sea bed using its two pairs of double fins, and that it represented a transitional form between land and sea creatures.

Shockingly for some, the living coelacanths discovered then and since look just like their fossils. Thus, evolutionists who discovered that they were off 80 million years in terms of extinction had to face the prospect of also being off 400 million years in terms of evolution. In 1938 it became known that there were no coelacanth experts but in a way one could understand their mistake; the coelocanth is all pre-historicky looking.



Similarly, there are no dinosaur experts either. No one really knows what they looked like. Many if not most ideas about them have already been proved wrong or have experienced “turbulence”. Species and types merge and disappear or are it almost seems randomly moved over to another tree or up and down said evolutionary tree.

Are they warm blooded or cold blooded? Covered with feathers? Last year science suggested that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by 33% to 50%. A number of species of dinosaurs completely disappeared last year when it was decided that some individuals were merely juvenile versions of another type of dinosaur.

Paleontologists are famous for naming essentially the same dinosaur found in various locales and respective continents the ME-o-saurus (“ME” being the name of each discoverer). Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago but I’m afraid that the historical data tells us otherwise. We’ll take a quick peek at a few artifacts from West Africa (some previously seen here) to see if its credible to believe that man and dinosaur never coexisted.

The Dogon Peoples

“The Bandiagara Cliffs The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of the country of Mali, in the West of the Continent of Africa, south of the Niger bend, near the city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. The population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000[1] The Dogon are best known for their religious traditions, their mask dances, wooden sculpture and their architecture…….


The principal Dogon area is bisected by the Bandiagara Escarpment, a sandstone cliff of up to 500m (1,640 ft) high, stretching about 150 km (90 miles). To the southeast of the cliff, the sandy Séno-Gondo Plains are found, and northwest of the cliff are the Bandiagara Highlands. Historically, Dogon villages were established in the Bandiagara area in consequence of the Dogon people’s collective refusal to convert to Islam a thousand years ago.

Dogon insecurity in the face of these historical pressures caused them to locate their villages in defensible positions along the walls of the escarpment. The other factor influencing their choice of settlement location is water. The Niger River is nearby and in the sandstone rock, a rivulet runs at the foot of the cliff at the lowest point of the area during the wet season.


Dogon art is primarily sculpture. Dogon art revolves around religious values, ideals, and freedoms (Laude, 19). Dogon sculptures are not made to be seen publicly, and are commonly hidden from the public eye within the houses of families, sanctuaries, or kept with the Hogon (Laude, 20). The importance of secrecy is due to the symbolic meaning behind the pieces and the process by which they are made.

Themes found throughout Dogon sculpture consist of figures with raised arms, superimposed bearded figures, horsemen, stools with caryatids, women with children, figures covering their faces, women grinding pearl millet, women bearing vessels on their heads, donkeys bearing cups, musicians, dogs, quadruped-shaped troughs or benches, figures bending from the waist, mirror-images, aproned figures, and standing figures (Laude, 46-52). Signs of other contacts and origins are evident in Dogon art. The Dogon people were not the first inhabitants of the cliffs of Bandiagara. Influence from Tellem art is evident in Dogon art because of its rectilinear designs (Laude, 24).”..Wikipedia

Dogon Zoomorphic Head


Time Period’ 1800-early 1900’s. The Dogon Peoples. Mali Dimensions:
H x W: 8 x 1in. (20.3 x 2.5cm) Wood and Iron
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Bryce Holcombe Collection of African Decorative Art, Bequest of Bryce Holcombe, 1984

The item is described as “zoomorphic. It is an animal or animal like, but the museum is not able or ready to make an identification. They may consider it to be a mythological creature. In our view it closely matches the current view of the appearance of the crested, duck billed dinosaurs-the lambeosaurines although few if any hadrosaur fossils have been found in West Africa.

Here we show the sculpture in comparison to one of the crested hadrosaurine dinosaurs, hypacrosaurus.


Hypacrosaurus was a genus of duckbill dinosaur similar in appearance to Corythosaurus. Like Corythosaurus, it had a tall, hollow rounded crest, although not as large and straight. It is known from the remains of two species that spanned 75 to 67 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of Alberta, Canada, and Montana, USA, and is the latest hollow-crested duckbill known from good remains in North America. It was an obscure genus until the description of nests, eggs, and hatchlings belonging to H. stebingeri in the 1990s.

It is not our intent to claim that this traditional Dogon sculpture represents hypacrosaurus, merely that it likely represents one of the closely related lambeosauine, crested, duckbilled dinosaurs. The specific type may have yet to be discovered. There are alternate suggestions for this piece of sculpture including a crested duck but we think that it very closely resembles a dinosaur that was thought by science to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

500 Year Old Dogon Bipedal Statue


The Dogon peoples have become somewhat of the darlings of individuals around the world who believe that ancient technological prowess which is an enigma can best be explained by the belief that in the distant past the earth was visited by advanced aliens who imparted their knowledge to humans in some fashion. There are real archaeological anomalies out there and if one doesn’t have a Genesis/biblical system of belief it easy to see why many would find the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain them insufficient and why they would construct alternate theories do deal with them.

“Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938 and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen’s future publications.

They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or ‘star of the Sigui’, has two companion stars, p tolo (the Digitaria star), and mm ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following

remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.

In 1976 Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery arguing that the Dogon’s system reveals precise knowledge of cosmological facts only known by the development of modern astronomy, since they appear to know, from Griaule and Dieterlen’s account, that Sirius was part of a binary star system, whose second star, Sirius B, a white dwarf, was however completely invisible to the human eye, (just as Digitaria is the smallest grain[clarification needed] known to the Dogon), and that it took 50 years to complete its orbit. The existence of Sirius B had only been inferred to exist through mathematical calculations undertaken by Friedrich Bessel in 1844. Temple then argued that the Dogon’s information, if traced back to ancient Egyptian sources and myth, indicated an extraterrestrial transmission of knowledge of the stars. Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen had ever made such bold claims about a putative esoteric source for the Dogon’s knowledge.”…Wikipedia


I mention the foregoing because this little 500 year old Dogon metal statue has been swept up into this alien story by calling it a Nommo, a kind of fish/amphibian god slash alien.

Its reptilian, its walking in a bipedal fashion and its strange looking. For purposes of the alien scenario it fits in nicely-if you ignore the fact that it looks quite a bit like a terrestrial animal we know well.

From the Genesis creation account perspective, however it clearly fits as a creation of the first six days; a bipedal dinosaur.

Here we compare it with a more or less random, carnivorous, three toed, bipedal dinosaur.

Which is it”, then an alien fish/amphibian god representative –or an indication that the Dogon peoples of West Africa interacted with, carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs within the last 1,000 years?

Mystery of the African (Dogon) Ornithopod Dinosaur

Around the time Sir Richard Owen had coined the term “dinosaur” to describe the giant “terrible lizards” whose bones were then being discovered in the mid-1800′s the Dogon tribe was creating art which appears to represent one of them riding one of those creatures.



Features of the “dinosaur” are accurate enough for a species identification to be made. An Ornithopod dinosaur, in our humble opinion.

The birdlike head with strong jawline, “duck bill”; and the knees appearing to bend in the “wrong” direction (opposite ours) separate this dinosaur from the sauropods.

In actuality the front legs do bend in the opposite direction, but it the high ankles of these creatures which make it appear that the rear legs also bend in the forward direction.

Examples of the Ornithopod dinosaur depicted include; iguanadon and hadrosaurus as shown below. Note also the accuracy of this African depiction compared to early “scientific” depictions.

It’s interesting to note that the gallery showing this piece claims that this is dinosaur, from the mid-1800′s and that they can authenticate its age and origin. If you’ve got a spare $1,200, pick it up and send us a photo of the other side of the piece.

Antique African bronze dinosaur



Dogon Tribe African bronze vessel in the form of dinosaur, with the lid, on the lid a seated human figurine, the body of the vessel with linear scarifications, long tail. Covered in a light earthen patina. Antique African artifact 1800′s AD. This antique African artifact comes with a certificate of authenticity and time period.
All ancient artifacts and antiques, ancient jewelry, ancient statues, etc. are guaranteed to be authentic and from the time period stated.

All artifacts come with a certificate of authenticity and time period. We specialize in antiquities located in our online Treasures of the World gallery at World Wide Store.

View our ancient artifacts list view or aisles for other extraordinary artifacts. Also see other categories, Ancient artifacts Byzantine, Celtic, Cycladic, Egyptian, European, Greek, Holy land, Luristan, Mesopotamian, Persian, Roman, Syrian, African artifacts, Maya, and Prehistoric artifacts.

Many artifacts are rare and date back as far as 3000 BC. All artifacts are guaranteed to be authentic. Artifacts are one of a kind. If the item you want has already sold we may have something similar available.
Antique African bronze dinosaur
1800′s AD
measures: 14″ x 7 1/2″ $1200.00…..Treasures of the World”

Photo:Artifact with Iguanadon middle, and hadrosaurus, bottom.


When we discovered this artifact online, it had already been purchased by our friend Vance Nelson at CreationTruthMinistries.org. He currently has it in his possession and this new photo is Copyright CreationTruthMinistries.

Looking at the piece again we were struck by how detailed it actually is; the “skin” of the “dinosaur” could also provide evidence that the artist actually saw a living version of the creature at a time scientific depictions of dinosaurs were still “primitive”.

Note the diamond shapes that cover the entire creature. Does that feature match up with any modern dinosaur discoveries we wondered; remembering that we thought the artifact represented an Ornithopod dinosaur.

Hadrosaur Skeleton Found

“The hadrosaur skeleton itself which includes parts of the hip, a femur, part of a foot, and a 10-foot section of tail that is missing its tip is already an uncommon discovery because it is the most complete dinosaur skeleton, and the first crested hadrosaur, ever discovered in southern Utah’s Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, says Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist with the monument. Geology and paleontology were part of the reason this monument was established, Titus says.

This specimen is also special because many of the skin impressions were found in direct contact with the bone, so scientists can place with confidence the different scale patterns on particular parts of the dinosaur, Titus adds.

The specimen has two distinct skin patterns, says David Gillette, the dig’s lead scientist and a curator of the Museum of Northern Arizona. A diamond-shaped pattern was found near the tail’s tip, he says, while a more irregular and polygonal pattern was uncovered closer to the hip”….Geotimes, oct 2001

Other West African Dinosaurs and Supposedly Extinct Animals

The West African area seems to have been a hotbed of ancient dinosaur activity. In addition to the Dogon of Mali, items from the nearby Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Niger, the Sudan, Chad and Cameroon, most of which are not included in this article abound.

Not Just Dinosaurs; the Ancient West African’s Clearly “Interacted” with “Extinct” Elephant: Did Platybelodon Become Extinct Between 5 Million and 25 Million Years Ago-Or Did He Live in the Recent Past?


If dogs had become extinct 400 to 500 years ago, evolutionists probably would have created an elaborate family tree and asserted that the various types had evolved over millions of years. Maybe the Pekinese, Chihuahuas and Boxers would have been selected as the older more primitive dogs who would later, in this evolutionary scenario have evolved into the physically larger more gracile forms such as the Collie, the German Shepherd, the Greyhound and the Whippet. No doubt the wolf and other dog breeds would be in the middle branches somewhere.

Evolutionists see the animal tree as essentially a vertical one where millions of years are needed for creatures to evolve from one form to another. Creationists believe that the relationship between animals is horizontal with all forms living at the same time and/or genetic variations of the same type separated by time or distance. The polar bear and the brown bear are still bears, who exhibit their built in genetic variation.

The elephant as we know him is supposed to have evolved from more primitive forms of the order Proboscidea. One such “primitive” alleged elephant was Platybelodon, supposedly extinct before the evolution of modern man. But hey, why is one perched on top of this ancient Sudanese hat? (Fossils of platybelodon have also been found on the continent of Africa.)

“Platybelodon (“flat-tusk”) was a genus of large herbivorous mammal related to the elephant (order Proboscidea).
It lived during the Miocene Epoch, about 15-4 million years ago. Although it thrived during its time, it did not survive past the Miocene and is now extinct.

Some have speculated that it became too specialized and was unable to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Platybelodon was previously believed to have fed in the swampy areas of grassy savannas using its teeth to shovel up aquatic and semi-aquatic vegetation.

Photo, right: The animal displayed on the top of the Antique Sudanese “Hat” is compared with modern depictions of platybelodon.


However, wear patterns on the teeth suggest that it used its lower tusks to strip bark from trees. Platybelodon was very similar to the Amebelodon, another gomphothere species.

Another possibility is that it used its shovel-tusks to dig for water in dry seasons.
Due to the shape of the two lower teeth, which are worn by many gomphothere species (such as Platybelodon and Amebelodon) they are popularly known as shovel tuskers”….Wikipedia

Habitat
Platybelodon lived in wet parts of prairies and ate soft plants (including water plants).
When Platybelodon Lived
This prehistoric elephant lived during the middle to late Miocene (roughly 25 million years ago).
Classification
Platybelodon was an early mammal. Class Mammalia (mammals), Order Proboscidea, Suborder Elephantoidea (elephants), Family Gomphothere (closely related to Amebelodon), Genus Platybelodon.
Fossils
Fossils of Platybelodon have been found in North America, eastern Europe, Africa, and northwestern China (these animals probably crossed via the Siberian land bridge between the continents of Asia and North America)”….Enchanted Learning.com

  

Baule Ancient Dinosaur from Ivory Coast? BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Price Realized $7,500
Estimate
$3,000 – $4,000
Sale Information
Sale 2661
Arts of Africa, Oceania and the Americas including Property from the Estate of Ernst Beyeler
10 May 2012
New York, Rockefeller Plaza
TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York, The African-American Institute
1978
Lot Description
BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Length: 44½ in. (113 cm.)

This item is compared to a mid-sized quadrupedal dinosaur. This piece has four legs so it is not a bird. Morphologically it is quite similar to this dinosaur depiction. It does not appear to be a lizard.


“The Baule belong to the Akan peoples who inhabit Ghana and Côte d’Ivoire. Three hundred years ago the Baule people migrated westward from Ghana when the Asante rose to power. The tale of how they broke away from the Asante has been preserved in their oral traditions.

During the Asante rise to power the Baule queen, Aura Poku, was in direct competition with the current Asante king. When the Asante prevailed, the queen led her people away to the land they now occupy. The male descendant of Aura Poku still lives in the palace she established and is honored by the Baule as their nominal king.” Arts of Africa

  

An Assembly of Various Allegedly “Extinct for Millions of Years Creatures” In Traditional Upper Volta Sculpture


TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York
The African-American Institute
1978
26 x 21 cm

This antique sculpture from the Upper Volta region (now called Burkina Faso) appears to represent several creatures thought to have been extinct for millions of years. The quadrupeds have horned faces as do the ceratopsian dinosaurs and the bipedal, non human, winged creatures appear to represent several types of pterosaurs.

Both pterosaurs and birds have keeled breastbones but it is especially noticeable on this antique sculpture.

Conclusion:

These are just a few examples of art and artifacts from Western Africa which indicate a familiarity with various types of extinct dinosaurs and other creatures. Can some of them be explained away?

Perhaps.

Can all of them be explained away as mythological or fake? I don’t think so. We’ve encountered hundreds of examples of ancient or antique artifacts that we think prove that just as science was wrong with respect to the ceolocanth by 80,000,000 years (with no evolutionary changes in 400,000,000 evolution years) it is certainly possible that they are also wrong about the evolution of and extinction of the dinosaurs.

When Scientists Find Evidence of Dinosaur Tracks and Human Habitation Together in China, Great Scientific Questions or Controversy Could Arise: Bring in the Folklorists and Begin the Mythologizing!

Church of Darwin, Dinosaurs in Literature, Giants in Those Days, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 26 2012



In all reality is understandable why real scientists might want to bring in a folklorist to explain how humans and dinosaurs never lived together and to make sure that the evidence is cast in a way so as not to even bring that thought into consideration. That’s because most paleontological explanations concerning dinosaurs, man and the history of the planet is just plain folklore.

Adrienne Mayor came alongside science a few years ago by trying to explain away the incredible number of art artifacts that depict “griffins” with the same attributes and features across time and cultures. She thought it was because they all came across the same beaked ceratopsian skulls. (We believe them to be depictions of a certain type of pterosaur. See prior article on griffins.

Ok Mayor is also a “historian of ancient science”, bleeeh, and she connects the three-toed dinosaur tracks which are prolific at the location with the three lobed lotus flower etc. etc. No one is wondering if this site in fact might indicate that man and dinosaurs themselves interacted. They’ve changed the subject completely. They are so convinced that they are millions of years apart that such a conclusion is never even a possibility in their minds. Bring in the folklorist.

Where’s the evidence that man and dinosaur interacted evolutionsits ask, while immediately dismissing any actual or potential evidence that might so indicate as impossible. Au contraire here is one article posted here providing evidence of dinosaur and human interaction from inside the dinosaur.



Finally, here is a Chinese painting which provides pretty good evidence that the ancient Chinese encountered and interacted with real dinosaurs in the last several thousand years-and not just with their footprints. The painting is “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum- and it is here compared with a bi-pedal “dragon” with the correct number of “fingers” and toes as well as head crest to be a depiction of the Guanlong dinosaur whose fossils have been found in China…s8intcom



The original painting and our article “Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 2 can be Read Here

World’s only evidence of co-existing humans, dinosaur tracks found in China
10-27-2011 CCTV.com from

BEIJING/CHONGQING, Oct. 16 (Xinhua) — A team of Chinese and American scientists have discovered the world’s only evidence of co-existing human beings and dinosaur tracks in a remote county in southwest China’s Chongqing Municipality, according to a paper published Saturday in the Geological Bulletin of China, a Chinese core academic journal.

Qijiang County’s Lianhua Baozhai, which means “Lotus Mountain Fortress” in Chinese, has a large number of dinosaur tracks as well as a well-preserved fortress and historical epigraph, forming a direct line of evidence that ancient Chinese people built a residence and lived there for a long time, said Xing Lida, one of three researchers with the project as well as a doctoral degree candidate with the Department of Biological Sciences of the University of Alberta in Canada.


Chinese people could have lived here for more than 700 years, and the mud cracks, ripple marks and duck-billed dinosaur tracks were considered by them to be lotus leaf veins, water environment and lotus, respectively, which is why they named it the Lotus Mountain Fortress, Xing Lida told Xinhua.

“Research shows that dinosaur tracks impacted ancient Chinese place names and folklore, so place names and folklore can be major clues for us in tracing dinosaur tracks,” Xing said.

According to the paper, the Lotus Mountain Fortress dinosaur tracks, the largest track group of cretaceous dinosaurs in southwestern China, contains 350 to 400 footprints that had been preserved in many ways, including concave footprints, convex footprints and multilayered footprints.

“We found a lot of interesting relics that had been associated with lotus by local residents. The ripple marks, mud cracks and duck-billed dinosaur tracks had created a picture of a lotus field, and lead to the folklore of ‘booming golden lotus from the earth,’” he said.

Chen Yu, another researcher with the project as well as an archaeologist with the Capital Museum in Beijing, said the region had been a transport hub for China and other Asian countries, where Buddhism thrived.

“The religion has a special worship towards lotus, which symbolizes peace and quiet. This is another reason for the residents to name the place for the flower, seeking blessing from the Buddha,” Chen said.

Qijiang County was located in what, historically, was a frontier area, and had endured wars at that time. The Lotus Mountain Fortress had been a safe hiding place since the Han Dynasty (202 BC- 220 AD), according to the epigraphy of various dynasties, she said.

Adrienne Mayor, the third researcher with the project as well as a historian of ancient science and a classical folklorist with Stanford University in the United States, said the case of the Lotus Mountain Fortress proves that dinosaur tracks had impacted ancient Chinese folklore, which could provide clues for seeking other tracks.

The fortress’ 700 years of history is a rarity in the world, and reflects China’s traditional philosophy of the relationship between humans and nature, she said.

Video Link

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs-How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 13 2011


“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

By Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a fictional character and one of the primary protagonists in the Star Wars movie series. Portrayed by Alec Guinness in the original trilogy, he was one of the most memorable. In the world of the Star Wars films, Kenobi had a particular skill that he used to great effect known now as “conversational hypnosis”. He was able to convince his antagonists by speaking in a specific tone of voice to alter their intended courses of action or for example, to see something that wasn’t in fact there.

Someone or something with even greater abilities is at work here in the real world. When it comes to modern science’s ability to utilize that same skill in convincing the world that dinosaurs and man never interacted, I’m afraid that Obi-Wan Kenobi comes off as a Wookiee;/rookie. Of course, in the movie Obi-Wan had the virtue of not being on the “dark” side. Not true of modern science.

Citizen: ”Science, Shouldn’t I look into the dinosaur/ancient dragon connection more closely?”
Evolutionary Science: [with a small wave of its hand]’ You don’t need to look into the dinosaur question more closely”.
Citizen: ” We don’t need to look more closely.”
Evolutionary Science: [calmly, smoothly, head moving side to side; indicating no..] These aren’t the dinosaurs you’re looking for.
Citizen: [trancelike] “These aren’t the dinosaurs I’m looking for.”
Evolutionary Science: You can go about your business.
Citizen: “ I can go about my business”.
Evolutionary Science:” Move along”.
Citizen: “ Moving along, moving along.”

It’s a bit ironic how easily even evolutionists accept portrayals of man and dinosaur together in cartoons, television programs and movies. However, we have all been trained regarding when it is acceptable to see these interactions and when it is not. Dinosaurs in cartoons; yes-dinosaurs in ancient art museums, no!

(I know that this particular one isn’t funny, but how about; “When this game evolves we’ll be using pigskin instead of dinosaur skin, but they won’t be here ‘til the Olicene”?)

Click on the cartoon above for the rest of this story. The point; dinosaurs and dragons; change the context change the dragon.

 

Photo Right:Top-Rhamphorynchus fossil at the British Nuseum, 1922. Bottom- Aurora Defeating the Dragon, Aurora Consurgens, Published 1420.

When the British Museum put the fossil remains of Rhamphorynchus on display in 1922, it was labeled “Pterodactyl or Extinct Flying Dragon”, drawing a direct line from the pterosaur of modern science to the historic tales of dragons, flying and otherwise that had pervaded the written and artistic history of virtually every ancient culture.

A photograph of that 1922 exhibit is shown here along with a drawing from the 1420 Book Aurora Consurgens (Aurora Defeating the Dragon). This 1420 book depicts a version of the British Museum pterosaur some 350 years prior to their scientific discovery by Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini thought that they were seagoing creatures.

It’s true that pterosaurs are not considered to be dinosaurs but ancient cultures considered them all (dinosaurs, marine reptiles and pterosaurs) as either dragons or flying dragons. So what happened? How did the clear reference made by the British Museum of the obvious link between, giant, dangerous, reptilian, land, air and sea monsters with the modern discovery of giant, dangerous, reptilian, land air and sea monsters that we call dinosaurs get severed? These dragons are not the dinosaurs you seek!

Let’s start with why before we consider how. Even prior to Darwin many people had become skeptical about such things as the Biblical chronology of the earth and biblical history. For many dragons were considered mythological and a reason to doubt the Bible’s veracity. In this same period, the theories of the geologic column and formation of the earth over millions of years served as grist for the evolution mill. The term dinosaur was coined in 1842. Origin of the Species was published in 1859. All these tended to provide some evidence or support for Atheists and skeptics.

As more and more of these giant, mysterious creatures science called dinosaurs were discovered there was a chance that they could have been associated with the dragons of “recorded history” but instead were placed by science by use of the geologic column to an age millions of years ago.

This fit neatly with modern anti-biblical notions regarding the age of the earth and with evolutionary processes which needed millions and billions of years to complete. Of course any suggestions that dinosaurs were the dragons of the Bible and of ancient cultures would serve to undermine these theories and to support the Bible. The relatively new claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs would seem even more ridiculous if it was understood that dinosaurs were running around with birds –and man just a few years ago.

How Did They do it?

For one thing; scientific illustrators try to make sure that dinosaur depictions look nothing at all like ancient depictions of dragons. It may surprise you to know that scientists actually have no idea what dinosaurs looked like. Witness this rather long exerpt from a Discover Magazine Article in 2000 entitled: What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like?

“In recent months, artists in the workshop have been putting finishing touches on a special exhibit called Fighting Dinosaurs. In a diorama for the new exhibit a fierce velociraptor, looking like a thinned-down turkey with frighteningly large teeth, stalks a protoceratops. With a flanged crest and beaked mouth that make it look like a goat-sized version of its larger and more famous cousin, Triceratops, the protoceratops sees the predator coming and snarls.


The scene is so vivid that some visitors may glance around nervously to be certain they haven’t been whisked back 80 million years by a hidden time machine. “When you come upon a diorama,” says David Harvey, the museum’s vice president of exhibitions, “it transcends all of the data. It becomes a real experience.”

Yet it is precisely that experience with which a growing number of scientists have a big problem: There is precious little data about dinosaurs to transcend. What the museum scientists know about Indians, whales, and elephants is more than enough to mimic real life. But when it comes to dinosaurs, all they really have to work with is an incomplete jumble of bones. Indeed, if the exhibits department were limited to just skeletal data for its dioramas and reconstructions, these halls would take on a most unromantic flavor. For instance, the Indians in the canoe would lack noses, ears, and breasts, and the diorama artists (ignoring for the moment that they are humans themselves) would be at a loss for what to cover them in—slick skin like a dolphin? Monkey fur? Gorilla hair? As for the blue whale, no one would know to make it blue. And the elephants are a special case. There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster.

Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. To begin with, dinosaur skeletons are rarely found intact, and figuring out how scattered bones fit together is not always clear. Then, making the leap of placing tissue and skin on those bones is a process fraught with unknowns.

Some paleontologists trained in comparative anatomy are beginning to analyze microscopic marks that soft tissues make on bones in search of clues to what dinosaurs actually looked like. But taking a pile of bones and conjuring up what snarling dinosaurs about to battle each other really looked like involves at best equal parts educated guesswork and complete artistic fancy. As Mark Norell, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the museum, puts it, dinosaur artwork “is a fantastic leap from what we know.” And most scientists say we may never know a lot more than we do now”….Discover Magazine, September 2000

Dinosaurs look as little like dragons as possible considering that they are both giant, reptilian ‘monsters”. Could artists render them with bonier heads, external ears, beards and the ferocious dragon mien? Not if they want them published or taken seriously. If dinosaurs looked more like dragons it would be even more difficult to get us to “move along” on this issue.

Just a few more things about dinosaurs here; there are not nearly as many types of dinosaurs as you think. Because of evolution theory, dinosaurs are supposed to differ from continent to continent but they don’t. This doesn’t stop science from giving them different names though.

This last note will be important as we begin to look at some actual dinosaur depictions from ancient China—the actual intent of this article –if I can get to it. An article describing a recent study was published in Live Science on June 22, 2009:

Giant Dinosaurs Get Downsized “Some dinosaurs were the largest creatures ever to walk on land, including the classic long-necked, whip-tailed Diplodocus, but a new study suggests it and its many extinct brethren weighed as little as half as much as previously thought.” A new equation for calculating dinosaur mass based on skeletons found that scientists have been overestimating the girth of many dinosaurs.” Giant Dinosaurs get Downsized

    Photo:Might down sized sauropods have looked like this 3,500 year old Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal depiction rather than the standard depiction on the right?

    More here.


Please keep the foregoing in mind and your mind open as you view a few of the many, many examples of dinosaurs catalogued by the ancient Chinese and classed as mythological dragons by modern science; “Crouching dragon? Hidden Dinosaur?” I picked China here today because China and Asia are thought to be the ancient source of the “mythological dragon”. In truth, they appeared in the art and written history of virtually all ancient cultures in some form because “dinosaurs” lived all over the planet within recorded history. Of course it must be said that many alleged mythological creatures were in fact fanciful.

It’s time for a little show and tell!
[whisper] chris parker; these are not the dinosaurs you seek…

Tang Dynasty Running Dragons

I’ve often particularly noticed these little gold Tang Dynasty (618 A.D. to 907 A.D.) running dragons at the Shanghai Museum. Known as running dragons, this little herd of “dragons” are versions of the same type of dragon that crops up in the art of a number of ancient Chinese Dynasties. What a curious way to portray a mythological creature! In a herd.

I thought that perhaps they might be depictions of actual creatures but I was never successful in finding anything similar in modern depictions of dinosaurs.

I noted that there are other versions of this dragon in ancient Chinese art, but I also came across a very similar dragon in the art of ancient Babylon. What strikes me about these dragons is their slight build but also the seemingly “exaggerated” distance between their front and back legs. They certainly don’t make one think of most modern depictions of dinosaurs.

Remember however, that 1) no scientist today has a clue what dinosaurs actually looked like and 2)there is some indication that artists have been placing a little too much meat on the bone; oversizing them as much as double according to the Live Science article quoted above.

The Tang Dynasty dragons are in the center; on the right of the graphic is the famous dragon of Marduk from the Babylonian Ishtar gate. The Babylonian dragon precedes the Tang Dynasty versions by 1,000 years. Is it a coincidence that two ancient societies created nearly identical mythological dragons?


Perhaps. But perhaps not.. The creature on the left is Massospondylus (above photo; skeleton is alongside this para) (“a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the early Jurassic Period (Hettangian to Pliensbachian ages, ca. 200–183 million years ago).” Wikipedia), as it appears on a Canadian stamp.

Massopondylus’ skeleton is very slight and most artists have depicted it as a heavier creature. However, drawn as a slighter animal it bears a resemblance to the Chinese dragons. Certainly if this group of dinosaurs, including other similar dinosaurs such as plateosaurus (small prosauropods) had been depicted like this some of us would have drawn a straighter line between dinosaurs and dragons even without the external “dragon” features.

“fossil concentrations have suggested that Massospondylus was a herd animal, perhaps wandering through the ancient landscape of what is today South Africa – as well as the rest of Africa – like modern wildebeest. It was certainly widespread. Remains of Massospondylus have also been found in North and South America, China and India.

When Massospondylus was alive, today’s land masses were all joined together in the super-continent Pangaea (‘Pan-jee-a’, which is Greek for “All Earth”). This distribution of fossils indicates that the animals were present in large numbers over very large areas.” ….www.primeorigins.co.za/young_minds/massospondylus.htm

Let’s look at other slighter depictions of prosauropods like Massopondylus and compare them to depictions of ancient Chinese “dragons”.

At left, on top, is a Song dynasty dragon, (1127 A.D.-1279 A.D.) in silver and gold with turquoise inlays from the Musee Guimet, in Paris. Below is a depiction of plateosaurus, a prosauropod, similar to massospondylus. (Note to the detail oriented: the modern depiction has the rear left leg extended backwards at the same time as the forward left leg is extended forward. The mythological dragon seems as though he has the better gait?)

Do these dragons in fact represent truer versions of prosauropod? It could be. The point remains that no one knows what dinosaurs actually looked like.

 

 

I want to show you an additional dinosaur depiction that makes it clear that the same allegedly mythological dinosaur was modeled by as we showed the Babylonians on the Ishtar Gate, (604- 562 BC), the Tang Dynasty (618A.D. -907A.D.) and ancient South America from the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).

On top is a piece from the Julsrud collection; a collection of over 30 thousand miniature figurines found buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico.

Of course, because the collection features so many obvious dinosaurs interacting with man it is not considered to be genuine. It is remarkable that the same dinosaur/dragon depiction has appeared on at least three continents representing cultures spanning 1,500 years.

The dinosaur/dragon on the bottom is also from the Tang Dynasty; it is a rare painted ceramic that recently sold at auction for over $23,000. The fact that the 1945 discovered Julsrud collection depicts dinosaurs not as modern artists do but as the ancients did provides credibility for the collection and the idea that these are real and not mythological creatures.


Here on the right an apparently clueless ancient Chinese hunter chases a “mythological creature” with either a bow or a bolo weapon. These Sketches (rubbings) of Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to 220 A.D.)motifs are by Lampo Leong, a University of Missouri Professor. The dynamic movement is typical of Han art. This appears to be the same dragon depicted by the Tang Dynasty, the ancient Babylonians, the ancient South Americans and-the Canadians!?

Science does not know hat dinosaurs looked like but “it” is sure of this one thing; they did not look anything like dragons!

Moving on.

Liao Dynasty

This next beautiful piece comes down to use from Liao Dynasty, China. (Photo from Wikimedia). It is a drinking flask covered with a Sancai glaze.

“The Liao Dynasty, also known as the Khitan Empire was an empire in East Asia that ruled over the regions of Manchuria, Mongolia, and parts of northern China proper between 907 – 1125. It was founded by the Yelü clan of the Khitan people in the same year as Tang Dynasty collapsed (907), even though its first ruler, Yelü Abaoji (Yaruud Ambagai Khan), did not declare an era name until 916.” Wikipedia

This piece is interesting because it features two different dragons. I want to discuss the “dragon” on the top of the flask. First of all, as for it being a dragon; it instead reminds me very much of a ceratopsian dinosaur. After all “ceratopsian” is Greek for “horned face”. The ceratopsians, which includes triceratops; supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years prior to the Liao Dynasty.

I see the horned face, and I see what appears to be from the only angle we have, a rudimentary neck frill.

But do you know what else?

Yes! The feet!. The dinosaur feet! Well, feet that would make tracks similar to those three-toed tracks made by many types of dinosaurs (although there are wide variations in three-toed dinosaur tracks). Note here the leptoceratopsian dinosaur; his feet are very similar to that of our dragon aboard the flask.

Note: “Except in extraordinary circumstances, it’s pretty much impossible to identify the specific genus or species of dinosaur that made a given footprint. What paleontologists can figure out fairly easily is whether the dinosaur was bipedal or quadruped (that is, whether it walked on two or four feet); what geological period it lived in (based on the age of the sediment where the footprint is found); and its approximate size and weight (based on the size and depth of the footprint).”..About.com Dinosaurs

Early American naturalist Edward Hitchcock wrongly interpreted the thousands of dinosaur footprints that he encountered on the America plains as the footprints of giant, flightless birds who roamed the Americas in giant herds. His mistaken hypothesis was taken up by a number of other naturalists for a time.

Here however, the Ancient Chinese somehow rightly associated dinosaur footprints with large dragon and dinosaur-like reptiles….

On the right here we compare the two right footprints of our Liao Dynasty dragon with those of the dinosaur. My guess is that the Ancient Chinese did not have to look at ancient tracks on the plain to figure out what sorts of creatures made them. The creatures; dinosaurs were still living at that time.

 

 

Late Eastern Zhou Sauropod

“The Shang dynasty (1766 BC – 1027 BC) ruled parts of northern and central China. Its capital city was located at Anyang near the border of Henan from about 1384 BCE. This dynasty was based on agriculture; millet, wheat, and barley were the primary crops grown.

In addition to the crops, silkworms, pigs, dogs, sheep, and oxen were raised. Aside from their agricultural prowess, the Shang dynasty was also advanced in metallurgy. Bronze ships, weapons, and tools were found from that era.” Thinkquest

This Ancient Chinese ornamental box of bronze features an unmistakable depiction of a sauropod dinosaur. To be more precise, likely a prosauropod dinosaur. A version of the object appeared in the book (The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285.) Fong, Wen ed. This photo is from Zhengzhou, from the Henan Museum.

The sauropod dinosaurs are easily recognizable and difficult to miss, however, might science here again made its depictions of the creature to large? One alternative to consider is that the creature depicted is one of the group that modern science now calls prosauropods who among other things was generally smaller. The creature crawling up the side of the box is also making an appearance here out in the water in the introductory photo at the very top of the page.

Here also he is shown in comparison to several dinosaurs described as ancient Chinese prosauropods, extinct for over 65 million years.

Top, left Yunnanosaurus; “ a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the Early to Middle Jurassic Period, a position in time that makes it one of the last prosauropods. It is closely related to Lufengosaurus. Known from two valid species, Yunnanosaurus ranged in size from 7 meters (23 feet) long and 2 m (6.5 ft) high to 13 m (42 ft) long in the largest species.” Yang Zhongjian (aka C. C. Young) discovered the first Yunnanosaurus skeletons in the Lufeng Formation of Yunnan, China…Wikipedia

Bottom, right: Yimenosaurus .”Along with its close contemporary, Jingshanosaurus, Yimenosaurus was one of the largest prosauropods, measuring about 30 feet from head to tail and weighing as much as two tons–not much compared to the plus-sized sauropods of the late Jurassic period, but beefier than most other prosauropods, which only weighed a few hundred pounds. Thanks to its numerous (and near-complete) fossil remains, Yimenosaurus is one of the better known herbivorous dinosaurs of early Jurassic Asia, rivaled only by another Chinese prosauropod, Lufengosaurus.”…Wikipedia

PHOTO;Lufengosaurus Skeleton

The point here is not so much to identify the actual species of prosauropod that the Eastern Zhou “dragon” represents but rather to show that the artist could have credibly meant to represent one of these animals which were thought to have gone extinct 65 million years prior to the Shang Dynasty. This crouching dragon was more likely a hidden dinosaur.

 

 

Han Dynasty Theropod Dinosaur

The Chinese dragon bronze sculpture (below right, faded) is on display at the Glendive dinosaur and fossil museum in Glendive, Montana.

It is dated to the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.)and is approximately 2,000 years old. The piece looks remarkably like a Theropod dinosaur including the correct posture, dermal spines, and forearms that end in “hands”. It bears a remarkable resemblance to a Therizinosaur.

The larger and clearer photo of the figure to the left is a virtually identical artifact described as an “ancient Chinese artifact”. The item is for sale on EBAY. The seller claims that it is a bronze, ancient piece from the Bronze Age of China.

If the item is authentic, then it bears a close resemblance to a Therizinosaur with its exaggerated claws and bi pedal stance. One would have to be impressed that the ancient Chinese could have even mythologized a bi pedal dragon/dinosaur. (Note the “compare” drawing is actually of Harpymimus (Wikidino) which is basicallly the Chinese version of the same theropod dinosaur.)

 

 

Ancient Chinese Fu (Foo) Dogs/Lions and other Mysterious Buddhist Temple Creatures

Photo:Pair of Asian stoneware lions 18th century.(1700’s) Busacca Gallery.

Foo Dogs/Lions are neither dogs nor lions. No one is quite sure what they are/were other than mystical creatures. I’ve been interested in them for some time because they are so ubiquitous, because they appear elsewhere in the ancient world outside of China; in ancient India for instance.
From Wikipedia “Chinese guardian lions, known as Shishi lions (Chinese pinyin: shísh?; literally “stone lion”) or Imperial guardian lion, and often incorrectly called “Foo Dogs” in the West, are a common representation of the lion in pre-modern China.

They have traditionally stood in front of Chinese Imperial palaces, Imperial tombs, government offices, temples, and the homes of government officials and the wealthy, from the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220), and were believed to have powerful mythic protective benefits. Pairs of guardian lions are still common decorative and symbolic elements at the entrances to restaurants, hotels, supermarkets and other structures, with one sitting on each side of the entrance”.

Photo: Wall at the Ellora Caves

Some time ago I was struck by the following description; from India of a dragon which seemed to picture a creature somewhat similar to the Chinese Foo Dog. Later I found a photo of this Temple scene which also seemed to match the written description of a living creature.

“This kind also have beards, and lift their necks on high, while their scales glitter like silver; and the pupils of their eyes consist of a fiery stone, and they say that this has an uncanny power for many secret purposes.

The plain specimen falls the prize of the hunters whenever it draws upon itself an elephant; for the destruction of both creatures is the result, and those who capture the dragons are rewarded by getting the eyes and skin and teeth.

In most respects they resemble the largest swine, but they are slighter in build and ‘flexible, and they have teeth as sharp and indestructible as those of the largest fishes.”

(See the creature on the far left of the photo above). The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}On the Existence of Dragons …. Upon his visit to India

Let’s cut to the chase; I may have discovered what these creatures were and they were not mythological as modern science can attest. However, they weren’t dinosaurs either-which is why it took so long for me to identify these particular Chinese/Indian dragons.

For the final section of this somewhat long article I modestly propose to unmask in fact two ancient “mythological creatures”-by name, both of whom it is claimed lived 255 -260 million years ago. One key in examining this upcoming visual evidence is to remember that modern science and modern scientific illustrators like to draw their retrospective animal recreations “unadorned”.

“Moschops (meaning calf face) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Late Permian, around 255 million years ago. Therapsids were proto-mammals (non-mammal synapsids), which were the dominant land animals. Five metres long, Moschops was the largest land animal of its time, a herbivore preyed on by other therapsids. Its remains were found in the Karoo region of South Africa.

Here is a photo of “dragons” on the temple roof in Ellora.

It was the largest land animal at the time, with a body length of around 5 metres (16 ft). It was a heavily-built herbivore with short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. The forelimbs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind limbs were more mammalian in form, being placed directly under the body. The diet of Moschops was mostly plants, sometimes eating meat.”

“Ellora (Marathi) is an archaeological site, 30 km (19 mi) from the city of Aurangabad in the Indian state of Maharashtra built by the Rashtrakuta dynasty. Well-known for its monumental caves, Ellora is a World Heritage SiteEllora represents the epitome of Indian rock-cut architecture.

The 34 “caves” – actually structures excavated out of the vertical face of the Charanandri hills. Buddhist, Hindu and Jain rock-cut temples and viharas and mathas were built between the 5th century and 10th century” Wikipedia….


Are you familiar with the flack that has been caused by the discovery of a stegosaurus depiction at Angkor Wat? “(or the ceratopsian at Muktinath Temple?

This “dinosaur”/dragon depiction is much older. Here is an up close picture of the Ellora Roof Dragon and moschops or a close relative. Moschops did not live over 250 million years ago. He lived within the history of mankind. He was created by God during the six days of creation.

One could literally crop a close picture of the Ellora dragon, label it Moschops and when it came up in image searches for moschops the internet searcher would be none the wiser.

Another group shot of the ellora roof dragon and moschops should make it even more clear that these creatures were living in India during the 5th century A.D.

How did I get in India talking about moschops when I started out writing about Chinese dinosaur/dragons? I have to confesds that initially I believed that the Foo Dogs of China and India were moschops or one of its close relatives.

This just proves that like paleontology, cryptozoological historical archaeology is not an exact science. It’s not even an exacpt pronunciation. I have come to believe that the Foo dogs/lions of China might have been another creature entirely.

Anteosaurus (meaning “previous or early reptile”) is the name given to an extinct genus of large carnivorous synapsid. It lived during the Capitanian epoch of the Middle Permian (266-260 million years ago) in what is now South Africa. They became extinct by the middle Late Permian.

Anteosaurus was a semi aquatic synapsid with a long tail and weak limbs, which indicate a lifestyle including water, much like that of a crocodile. Anteosaurus weighed approximately 500-600 kg and was around 5-6 m long…

Let’s compare a modern depiction of Antesaurus with an ancient one of the Foo Dog/lion.

There is a lot to like in this depiction of antesaurus as a possible model for the Food dog in China and India;.the musculature, the posture and the incisors to name a few.

This Marx toy version of Moschops by Marx toys is what first made me see a possible association with Moschops.

There are so many articles of ancient art that we didn’t get a chance to examine here that there will no doubt have to be, God willing a part two and three of this article.

These are the dinosaurs you seek.

I feel a disturbance in the farce.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

Dinosaur and Human Interaction in Our Times (the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago-Sun Times etc. Historical Newspapers)

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 03 2011

Photo: Dr. Requena reports finding artifacts of an unknown, advanced civilization in Venezuela who had sculpted extinct creatures incuding several versions of the diplodocus dinosaur. Modern Mechanix, 1934

by Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Quoted Headlines and news content in this article are in a blue font

“Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth” (Isaiah 40:26).

Charles Darwin’s book; “The Origin of the Species; was written back in 1859. The word “dinosaur” had been coined a few years earlier, in 1841 by Sir Richard Owen.

I began a review of the dinosaur and man controversy in the press after that time thinking that perhaps the world of science and news reporting would have still been rather naive and innocent for a time and still willing to report things as they were discovered-without the filter and hold that Darwinism currently holds over both.

Actually, the Darwin free “honeymoon period” proved to be remarkably short, however, scientists did make reports during this period that would ruin the reputation of anyone making such “scientific” claims today.

Some say that you can’t prove a negative; what is true is that when you make a negative proposition, i.e. “blue fairies don’t exist”, the breadth of that statement is universal, while the positive (opposing) side of that argument, i.e. “blue fairies do exist” only has to be shown to be true in one place in the universe to be correct and to simultaneously prove the “negative proposition” incorrect.

Photo: Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal showing sauropods from 300 B.C. The Lovre.

Another example of this type is the proposition that man and dinosaur never interacted. In fact, according to science, they missed each other by 65 million years. This negative proposition must be universal to be true; that is, man and dinosaur never interacted at any time or in any place in this universe.

For the opposing proposition to be true; that man and dinosaur did coexist- it need only be proved that they in fact, did interact at least in one instance at one time and at one place anywhere in the universe.

But we have proof of much more than a single instance in the newspapers and magazines that existed prior to the complete establishment of the Darwin filter.

Advanced Civilization in Venezuela Lived with Dinosaurs
Special Correspondence to the New York Times, Caracas, June 5, 1932 PUBLISHED JUNE, 12 1932
DATES EARLY MAN BACK 8,000 YEARS
Dr. Requena Holds Discoveries Indicate Venezuela Was Civilization’s Cradle
Found Fossilized Skulls—Lake Valencia Relics Show That Makers Were Familiar With Prehistoric Animals

In the early 1930’s Dr. Rafael Requena was an anthropologist affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela.

From the above named article:

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.

Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…”

Photo:Closeup and comparison of one of Requena’s sauropods. From photo at top of page.


The article goes on to mention that the skulls of the people found at the location had been fossilized. Dr. Requena noted that there appeared to be a high degree of civilization that preceded all other South American civilizations. Dr. Requena, assuming that the current scientific thinking re the age of the dinosaurs was correct, and finding numerous examples of sculptured dinosaurs, reasoned that the civilization and the dinosaurs must have been from 250 million years prior.

In his book he endeavored to link the ancient civilization to Atlantis.

The April, 1934 issue of Modern Mechanix, ran an article about Dr. Requena and his archaelogical discoveries in an article entitled; “Scientists Find Traces of Two Lost Continents”. The pictures that accompany this portion of our article on dinosaurs and man in historical press accounts comes from the Modern Mechanix article.

From that article:


“DOWN through the ages, man has hung to the words of Plato. For Plato told of a great continent, Atlantis by name, which slipped under the waters of the sea, carrying with it an entire civilization.
Recent discoveries point to the fact that approximately 250,000,000 years ago, South America, Africa, India, Australia and a great portion of the Antarctic region were a single continent.

Similar discoveries reveal the existence, until about the same period, of a North Atlantis, a sort of super-continent, which ran from the present western shores of North America to the British Isles, and possibly connected, by a few small peninsulas, with Europe.

Mysterious prehistoric rock writing, recently found in Venezuela by Dr. Rafael Requena, is believed to be the work of people who lived on the lost South Atlantis. In addition to the writings, Dr. Requena has found many relics of a by-gone culture.

They include small statues of humans, with males and females easily distinguished and replicas of animals, many of which resemble the strange dinosaurs which have been dug up in other portions of the world.”

Well, that’s it, right?

The one instance in the world of scientifically verified interaction between man and dinosaur that disproves the proposition that man and dinosaur never lived together? After all, there wasn’t just a single piece that perhaps could have been misinterpreted; there were several sculptures of “diplodocuses” in various poses and sculptures of other dinosaurs and extinct creatures; not discovered by some nameless amateur but by a scientist?

Unfortunately, not as far as “science” is concerned.


On the same continent, over 17,000 and counting “Ica Stones” discovered in 1966 near Ica, Peru; many displaying drawings of dinosaurs and technology such as telescopes etc. and 32,000 Acambaro figurines, many in the shapes of dinosaurs and other extinct or fantastic creatures discovered in 1944 in Acambaro, Mexico have also been ignored by the scientific community.

Dinosaurs and Man in the Gobi Desert

“Roy Chapman Andrews (January 26, 1884 – March 11, 1960) was an American explorer, adventurer and naturalist who became the director of the American Museum of Natural History. He is primarily known for leading a series of expeditions through the fragmented China of the early 20th century into the Gobi Desert and Mongolia. The expeditions made important discoveries and brought the first-known fossil dinosaur eggs to the museum.” Wikipedia


This next series of articles deals with the discoveries of Roy Chapman Andrews in the Gobi desert. Andrews was a well known adventurer scientist of his day whose adventures often made the front pages of the New York Times and newspapers and magazines across the country and the world. It is important to realize that Andrews was not outside of the scientific mainstream but was a part of it. He was always associated with the American Museum of Natural History.

Explorer Finds Remarkable Tools of Stone-Age People
Roy Chapman Andrews, Back from China Describes Prehistoric Life
Miami Herald, August 25, 1925

“Stone implements and weapons of a race of men who lived thousands of years ago among sand dunes on the shore of a lake since swallowed up by the Gobi desert have been found far in the interior of Mongolia by the third Asiatic expedition of the American Museum of Natural History……

…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs laid by the dinosaur, the giant reptile that roamed the Asiatic uplands some 10,000,000 years ago….”

In case you missed it, Chapman believes that man lived with dinosaurs in ages past because they had made ornaments out of dinosaur eggs, something that could only be accomplished with unfossilized dinosaur eggs!

Andrews Expedition
Glasgow Herald, September 9, 1925

“Among the most unique of these discoveries were the various clutches of dinosaur’s eggs, which were unearthed to the number of forty this year and thirty last.…

….Fragmentary dinosaur’s eggs figure also among the human relics, for a number of pieces were found which had been cut in regular shapes, presumably to form ornaments for prehistoric belles.”

Humans Coeval with Dinosaur (Coeval: of the same or equal age, antiquity, or duration)
The Spokesman-Review – Aug 19, 1925

Photo: The Mongolians drilled and cracked dinosaur egg shells as well as ostrich egg shells to make jewelry. Ostrich eggshell jewelry is shown here.

“…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs left by the dinosaur…..They used for the same purpose the egg shells of a gigantic ostrich, long ago extinct”.

Mr. Andrews went on to date the age of the Mongolian dinosaur civilization back to 25 million years ago as science came to move the age of the dinosaurs back further in time. Clearly the Mongolians were coeval with the dinosaurs whenever it was that they lived. Calling them primitive even though no human remains were found was their way of trying to preserve some kind of evolutionary order.

Additional Articles

Only 50,000 Years Old
The Meriden Daily Journal – Jun 18, 1925

“Moscow—Two human skeletons of the Neanderthal type, believed to be at least 50,000 years old recently found in a cave near Crimea.

The skeletons of dinosaurs, hyenas and bears were also found in the cave.”

Prehistoric Game Found
Monsters With Which Ante-dilluvian Man Contended
The Turners Falls Reporter – Dec 16, 1908

“The remains of the Dryopitheous or fossil man discovered on the Bengawan River, in Java mixed as they were with fossil bones of reptiles of the Cainozoic (SIC) age, and lying in the cretaceous strata, clearly prove that man was contemporary with the later of the giant Saurians.


Moreover, the discovery of the Nampa image, a piece of handiwork found in the cretaceous strata in Ada county, Idaho would imply that he had attained some slight degree of art. Assuming then that man was living in the Cainozoic (SIC) age, the question is, how did he survive his acquaintanceship with the gigantic Saurians….”

Confirms Story of Prehistoric Finds in Kenya Colony—U.S. Anthropologist Says Bones Prove Theory of Man’s First Habitat
In Stone Age Deposit
The Montreal Gazette – Sep 24, 1927

“….the Cutler dinosaur expedition to Tanganyika, who in six weeks found seven skulls at Nakeru in a Stone Age deposit, and also unearthed a complete skeleton of a six foot man buried twelve feet deep with more than 100 stone tools. Dr. Collie gave a pledge to the discoverer not to discuss the details of the Kenya find until after Dr. Leaky (yes that Dr. Leaky) has published them this fall.

He stressed the importance of the discovery because of the apparently inexhaustible supply of these remains, and the fact that traces of dinosaurs were found. Mr. Leaky was acting for the Royal Society and the Cambridge School of Anthropology, where he is a lecturer.”

The Sunday Tribune – Mar 15, 1925

Petrified Footprints of Man Assured Museum
Evidence of Human Life on American Continent Millions of Years Ago Offers Basis for Speculation
The Deseret News – Jul 24, 1934


“Here are the footprints of the Huntington Man claimed by scientists to have roamed the wilds of Utah nearly 200 million years ago. You will note that the foot widens out at the toes, indicating that the owner of these footprints must have had to walk on soft or miry ground. The prints are almost a foot long, and more than five inches across the toes. The deep mark at the side of the footprints was probably made by the head of a flint spear, resting on marshy ground.

….If these footprints were made when the sand of this period were soft then man must have been there to make them! So if you can, envision wild and woolly men riding tamed herbiverous dinosaurs racing up and down the country……”

In this gentler, less dogmatic Darwinist time, science appeared to be willing to admit that man and dinosaur interacted. The time difficulty enters in because they still accepted the Darwinist geological time scale. When was sandstone formed they believed; 200 million years ago. Therefore they reasoned, man must have been alive 200 million years ago-along with the dinosaurs.

The truth is that the rock formed and the man left his prints and dinosaurs all lived within the last few thousand years.

Unearthed Image Presents a Puzzle
The Calgary Daily Herald – Aug 6, 1924

“A rock image lately unearthed near grand Lake, high in the Colorado Rockies, presents a puzzle. It is a blue granite stone weighing 66 pounds. But what makes it remarkable is that it is covered with carvings indicating a very early period of human life.


The mammoth animals outlined are contemporaneous with the Cro-Magnon age. Among those pictured are prehistoric dinosaurs and mastodons. The main carving represents an early man with hands that have but three fingers. The flat nose pictured is generally associated with a race preceding the Aztecs according to J.A. Jeancon, curator of the Colorado Historical and Natural History Society.” Article

Oldest Footprints in the World
The Portsmouth Sunday Times – Feb 14, 1931

“A number of clearly defined footprints in solid rock have just been discovered in France which are believed to date back from two to three million years and perhaps record the mysterious first man. The face of the rock in which the prints are embodied is criss-crossed with the steps of dinosaurs and similar prehistoric animals and indicates that a terrific struggle once occurred there.

The imprints were, of course made when the rock was soft and then slowly hardened and were preserved for all time. The amazing discovery was made at Bagnoles-de-l’Onrne in Normandy by Dr. Marcel Morin, a well known French scientist.

…..Archeologists have been much impressed by this discovery. As a result of their investigations it is suggested that man first appeared in the earlier periods of the Tertiary Age of Mammals, which ranges loosely between two and sixty million years ago.”

How Science Responds to Its Own Discoveries

Nature is Interesting
Footprints in the Rock
Toledo Blade – Nov 1, 1950

By William Holt, a retired member of the faculty of Bowling Green State University and was recognized as one of the leading geologists in the nation.

“Occasionally peculiar shaped depressions in the surface of the bedrock have caused some persons with abnormal imagination, and a lack of geological training, to “see things” in the rock. Human footprints, hand impressions, and even tracks of dinosaurs or other prehistoric animals are recognized (?).

A most interesting case of a foot-print in a slab of surface rock was recently called to my attention. The footprint was in sandstone, and was so real (?) that to some at least there was no doubt that it was actually made by man. The main question seemed to be how many millions of years old it was.

Although I did not see the original, a clear photograph of it was quite sufficient in this case; and I attempted to make the answer clear to the questioners by the following statements:

First, that no human or animal could possibly make a deep imprint in solid, hard rock.

Second, that this particular Ohio bedrock was formed many millions of years before even primitive man existed. Hence no human foot ever could have stepped on the loose sediments of which this rock later was formed.”………William Holt

William is a materialist “scientist” and thus has trained himself not to believe his own lying eyes. In later years he got himself into trouble by reasoning that the IRS didn’t exist and therefore he didn’t have to pay taxes.

In Conclusion:

August 8, 1955 The Le Mars-Globe

“A skeleton found in a gravel pit here—a fairly complete skeleton, has been declared by Dr. Reynold Ruppe, state University of Iowa archaeologist, to be the remains of an ice-age man, who lived near the south edge of the glaciers which once covered Plymouth
County.

The Monona County ice-age man, who lived at least 10,000 years ago, ..was not like a modern Indian. He’s something older—and something new.

Bones of a dinosaur were found in the same deposit—about 10 feet deeper.

At first this led to speculation that the dinosaur was the aborigine’s pet, but that didn’t hang together. Dinosaurs disappeared from the earth a million years before the first, man showed up.

So the dinosaur must have left his bones a long, long time before the man died, was drowned or trapped in quicksand at the spot near, Turin where his skeleton was recovered.”

The reader sitting on the edge of his seat when he initially began to read this was quickly calmed by the explanation that this could not be what it might have seemed to be– he was reminded that there was no evidence that dinosaurs and man ever lived together! Science!

Though this scene in various forms, in various venues and with a variety of potential proofs has no doubt been played out thousands of times in thousands of locales, the Atheist continues to ask “where is the evidence” or “why hasn’t evidence of this interaction ever been found” and many Christians wonder also while nevertheless holding on to their beliefs. The relevant information is being suppressed-sometimes “automatically” because it doesn’t fit the paradigm.

See Also
Man and Dinosaur Co-Existence Proof Accepted by Science–Giant Footprints in Stone–Giant Humans in Stone–All Verified by Orthodox Scientist After 30 Years of Ridicule

Ancient Mound Builder Controversy: Did They Interact with and Memorialize Allosaurus, T-Rex or Carnotaurus? Plus, Champ or Ogopogo?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 28 2011

by Chris Parker

Drawing: Mound Builder Artifact from the book: “Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley, 1887

It’s amazing how little we as a supposedly educated culture actually know about the past. Even if we’ve studied the past, much of what is being taught or that is commonly believed is untrue. For instance, Columbus did not “discover” America. He was preceded here certainly by its inhabitants of the time, but also by the Norse, the Chinese, Africans, the Irish and the Vikings to name a few. Nero did not fiddle while Rome burned, Eve did not eat an apple, Egyptians were Africans. Dinosaurs and man Did interact

When in comes to the American continent, Native Americans supposedly came here from Asia 20,000 years ago across the Bering Straight land Bridge. However, a mysterious people, now called the Mound Builders whose works the Native Americans didn’t know were apparently here before them and their artifacts show that they interacted with the mastodon, dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles. Dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years ago.

No one knows for sure who the Mound Builders were and where they came from but one thing is certain; no one believes that they lived with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. The question is; did some dinosaurs and Mound builders live together here on this continent in “recent” times?

I present here some theories about the actual aimals being depicted here. Of course I could be wrong but I feel that if science believes that the ancient mound depicted on the left represents a Swan rather than a quadruped such as a sauropod that I’m on safe ground.

“The group of cultures collectively called Mound Builders were prehistoric inhabitants of North America who constructed various styles of earthen mounds for burial, residential and ceremonial purposes. These included the Pre-Columbian cultures of the Archaic period; Woodland period (Adena and Hopewell cultures); and Mississippian period; dating from roughly 3000 BCE to the 16th century CE, and living in regions of the Great Lakes, the Ohio River valley, and the Mississippi River valley and its tributaries.

As a comparison, beginning with the construction of Watson Brake about 3500 BC in present-day Louisiana, indigenous peoples started building earthwork mounds in North America nearly 1000 years before the pyramids were constructed in Egypt. Since the 19th century, the prevailing scholarly consensus has been that the mounds were constructed by Indigenous peoples of the Americas, early cultures distinctly separate from the historical Native American tribes extant at the time of European colonization of North America. The historical Native Americans were generally not knowledgeable about the civilizations that produced the mounds. Research and study of these cultures and peoples has been based on archaeology and anthropology.” Wikipedia

Mound Builder Theropod Dinosaur


This artifact (also pictured at the top of the page) is a drawing from the book; Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley: Written By William McAdams published in 1887 Page 14.

The author and the experts refer to the depiction as a “dragon” and it might seem presumptuous of me to disagree (particularly since we have only the head of the creature) but I see something else entirely. The Mound Builder creatures surrounding this piece are for the most part recognizable and are sculpted in a realistic style. There is no reason to suppose that this is a mythological creature other than because one has an A Priori scientific belief that these creatures did not exist within the lifetime of man.

Here is the author’s discussion of the piece in question and the other pieces found with it in the mound.

Graphic:Left, T-rex, Right Carnotaurus

“In our collection of pottery from the ancient mounds we have several pieces ornamented with dragon-like devices. We give an illustration of two of these; burial vases, with a most pronounced dragon-head standing up from the rim of the vessel. There is the great mouth with the teeth revealed, and protruding tongue, with fierce eyes, and the general aspect, not only of the Piasa, but of those mythological representations of the dragon so frequently found in Asia. We present a sketch of another.

Graphic:Left, Allosaurus, Right Carnotaurus


It is all the more interesting since we found with it a magnificent collection of pottery, of more than a hundred pieces, at the base of the great Cahokia mound, (pictured above, right) in the American Bottom, in Madison County, Ills.

This is the largest artificial mound in the United States, and perhaps in the world, being one-hundred feet in height, and covering with its base sixteen acres of ground. It is the centre of a group of seventy-two others, which surround it, and of which a description will be given farther on in this work. They are situated on a level plain, miles from any natural elevation. For a complete description and survey of them, see “The Antiquities of Cahokia, or Monk’s Mound’

Upon taking these curious old burial vases from the place where they had rested for ages, it was like exhuming a museum of natural history in ceramics ; for these were the shapes of animals, birds, reptiles, fishes, and aflmost all animated nature, together with the shapes of From Cahoki Mound. ithe human form. Among them were several vases adorned with the dragon heads.”

This is a realistically sculpted creature, posed withn a frog, it is certainly not a lizard and its teeth and head indicate that it is a carnivorous reptile. Quite frequently, such a creature is laabeled a dragon, and if not then a crocodile or alligator. This creature is clearly not one of those. It appears to be a lifelike depiction of a theropod dinosaur; a species similar to the allosaurus, t-rex or Carnotaurus. Are those horns on the top of its head or are those prominent eye ridges as depicted in a number of t-rex renditions. Keep this in mind; the piece you see here may have been done by an eyewitness.

We have compared here the Mound Builder creature with several examples of meat eating theropod dinosaurs. In our minds, the Carnotaurus, to date found in South America, most closely matches the Mound Builder artrifact.

Carnotaurus (pronounced /?k?rn??t?r?s/; meaning “meat-eating bull”, referring to its distinct bull-like horns (Latin carne = flesh + Greek tauros = bull) was a large predatory dinosaur, with horns vaguely resembling a bull’s. Only one species, Carnotaurus sastrei has been described so far. Carnotaurus lived in Patagonia, Argentina (La Colonia Formation) during the Campanian to the Maastrichtian stage of the Late Cretaceous, and was discovered by José Bonaparte, who has uncovered many other South American dinosaurs. Wikipedia

Allosaurus and T-rex are North American dinosaurs according to science.

Mound Builder Aquatic Reptile: Champ or Ogopogo

The Tusayan people are named after a ruin located in the Grand canyon National park in Arizona. These ancestral Puebloan people lived in the area until 1,000 years ago archaeologists believe. In American Anthropologist, Volume 5, January 1892, in an article entitled “ A Few Tusayan Pictographs” is a very interesting pictograph showing four long necked creatures.


Aquatic reptiles became extinct more than 65 million years ago as did the long necked sauropods according to science. The pictographs were thought to be a little as a thousand years old, possibly several thousand but certainly not millions of years old. Could science be wrong or are the more benign “nothing to see here, move it along” explanations of the archeologists satisfactory?

Here we compare the Mound Builder pictographs with; an ancient Roman “sea monster” and with several other classic sea or lake monsters.

Here’s what the author wrote about the pictograph in question:

“It will be noticed in examining the cut of these four pictographs of the great serpent that one is about horizontal and the other three erect. It will also be noticed that the horizontal specimen has a zigzag outline, as if in motion, which the others do not have. They are undoubtedly, however, figures of the same mythological personage”.

Ogopogo and Champ


“Ogopogo or Naitaka (Salish: n’ha-a-itk, “lake demon”) is the name given to a cryptid lake monster reported to live in Okanagan Lake, in British Columbia, Canada. Ogopogo has been allegedly seen by First Nations people since the 19th century. The most common description of Ogopogo is a forty- to fifty-foot-long (12 to 15 m) sea serpent. It has supposedly been photographed and even been caught on tape.” …Wikipedia


“Champ, or Champy is the name given to a reputed lake monster living in Lake Champlain, a natural freshwater lake in North America, partially situated across the U.S.-Canada border in the Canadian province of Quebec and partially situated across the Vermont-New York border. While there is no scientific evidence for the cryptid’s existence, there have been over 300 reported sightings. The legend of the monster is considered a draw for tourism in the Burlington, Vermont area.”… Wikipedia

The creature appears to be drawn with a beard which is typical of some “sea monsters” and drawn with a type of headcrest or ears.

I’m not suggesting that this creature is either Ogopogo or Champ but that it could represent a tyoe of sea or lake monster that has been seen and described by even the Romans and Greeks and by ancient and recent North and South Americans.

It appears that neither theropod dinosaurs or aquatic reptiles died out millons of years ago and were instead seen and memorialized by ancient peoples.

If It Looks Like An Extinct Marine Reptile and It Quacks Like An Extinct Marine Reptile, It Must Be A Goat…?

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 06 2010

We admit that it is often difficult to determine exactly what creature is being depicted in objects of ancient art (cryptozooarcheaology being one of our hobbies) but we note that its quite common for “experts” to “orthodoxize” any potentially anomalous pieces. This tendency to provide potentially anomalous pieces mundane descriptions is precisely why people are often unaware that out of place artifacts actually exist in museums and museum basements around the world.

Following is a Pacific Northcoast Indigenous People’s artifact that the British Museum describes as having the head of a goat. We’ll let you be the judge of that but to us, there is a close resemblance in form to certain marine reptiles which were supposedly extinct millions of years before these artists came on the scene. We won’t name that creature less we sway your judgement but … a goat?!

Oh, ple-sio! :0) …….s8int.com

BRITISH MUSEUM: “Shaman’s rattle in the form of an oystercatcher Tlingit, 1800′s AD

From Alaska, North America

The rattle is carved of wood, in the form of an oystercatcher (?) surmounted by the head of a mountain goat, with a frog on the back whose tongue is joined with that of the goat.

A shaman is tying up a witch, from whose mouth a second frog emerges, with long pointed incisors. This frog represents the evil spirit possessing the sorcerer, which the shaman is responsible for removing.

Shamans, like mountain goats, were able to visit the most difficult terrain. Such rattles might be applied over an afflicted part of the body, or left with the patient as guardian.

J.C.H. King, First peoples, first contacts: (London, The British Museum Press, 1999)”

Video: Dinosaurs and Man; The Lands That Darwin Forgot..Episodes 1-8

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Religious, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 28 2010

embedded by Embedded Video

YouTube Direkt

Darwin and time forgot the co-existence of man and dinosaurs but it is reflected in the art of ancient peoples. The variety and repetitive discoveries of known dinosaur and pterosaur species offer proof that Darwinism is a lie; all species of animals on this planet have lived concurrently with man.

The proof of this assertion is explored in eight episodes. The Series; The Lands That time Forgot”.
(Note this is not a real series….Its a s8int.com conceit)

And God created the great dragons…

And man memorialized these creatures; great and small; in exquisite detail. That is why these examinations will never be popular. everything that we’ve been told is true by materialistic sources–is untrue–and that is impossible in that world view.

Link to Video; Dinosaurs and Man; The Lands That Darwin Forgot..Episodes 1-8

Note: No actual, horses, dogs or dinosaurs were hurt or harmed in the making of this movie….

On the Hunt for Caddy (Cadborosaurus); 15 Filmed Up Close?

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 16 2010

Photo: Top; Cadborosaurus specimen from 1937. Second; ancient Roman depiction. Third; the MoundBuilders of Ancient America knew of Caddy as well. Bottom; modern drawing of Caddy by David John.

By Natalie North – Victoria News
August 02, 2010

He’s been a media star since the ’30s, lighting up newspaper headlines and television interviews.

And there’s no telling when he’ll pop up.

You could be washing your dishes and gazing out the front window or walking your dog on the beach.

The mythical sea serpent namesake of Cadboro Bay only shows his head when he’s ready and on his own terms.

The few locals who track Cadborosaurus, and who are determined to prove it exists, won’t rest until hard photographic evidence is secured. Evidence that could be on the verge of being revealed.

Jason Walton, cryptozoologist and head of the current search for recognition and classification of the legendary creature, says video footage of the creature is set to air next month on the Discovery Channel.

“There’s a guy up in Alaska who filmed about 15 (Cadborosauruses) swimming across an Alaskan Bay,” Walton said, adding that the video was shot from a boat and is close-up to the subjects.

Should Caddy show up back home, Walton hopes to capture his own film, thanks to 24-hour digital video surveillance across sighting-rich waters of Telegraph Bay.

I didn’t know what to think about the whole thing at first, but when you speak to a witness who’s so adamant about the Cadborosaurus – what they see and what they describe is so unlike anything else that’s swimming off of Vancouver Island.”

The accounts have included what appear to be loops (presumably the body) coming out of the water or heads and necks.

Sometimes it’s a single, two-and-a-half-metre-long head and neck and sometimes there are several heads, as reported by ferry captains, Walton said.

In 1991, one woman claimed she met Caddy on the steps to the beach as she walked her dog.

In 1937 a 3.2-metre carcass of a reptilian-looking animal with a camel-like head was reported found in the stomach of a sperm whale in Naden Harbour. The remains, Walton said, were shipped to Bellevue Wash. for display as proof of a baby sea serpent, and later lost. Hundreds of sightings of believed-serpents off local waters have been recorded, yet no concrete proof of Caddy’s existence has ever been documented.

“People are totally open-minded nowadays,” Walton said. “I think they find it fascinating, but there is a certain tilt of the eyebrow, shall we say. Scientists will start laughing outright. Most people are uninformed.”

Before the days of Walton’s tracking efforts, which includes a “Caddy Scan” website, he was critical of the mythology too, believing the legend was “totally unreal” until he spoke with his first witness. But Walton’s not interested in converting skeptics.

“We’re not out to change people’s minds or opinions. All we’re out to do is provide a service for people who have seen the Cadborosaurus and try to accumulate new information.”

Walton asks anyone who thinks they may have seen Caddy to report the sighting at 250-721-3836 or caddyscan@shaw.ca.

nnorth@saanichnews.com


Note: A group of Lions is called a “pride” of lions. A group of Caddy’s is called a “dealership” :0)

CryptoMundo Follow-up; Creatures Real

Note To Counterfeiter’s of “Ancient Indian Relics”..Don’t Shape Them Like Sauropod Dinosaurs!

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 17 2010

Photo:Counterfeit Relics? Click for Higher Resolution

Note to counterfeiters indeed!

If one is going to create a market for ancient “Indian” relics (back in the mid-late 1800′s and early 1900′s) by cleverly making the artifacts in question, one must be smart enough Not to make them in the shape of a creature that those “Indians” could never have either seen or imagined (according to Darwinist’s).

That would be like counterfeiting $1 million dollar bills or Cleveland Indian World Series tickets today.

Clearly counterfeit bears, fish, horses or buffalo would have been better received, particularly by the scientifically literate. When one realizes that a counterfeiter of those times would have to take the needed time to shape and polish stones into various shapes, then artificially ‘age’ them and then after all that work to sell them for .50., 75 or $1.50 each it hardly makes sense.

Photo:Counterfeit Relics? Click for Higher Resolution

That kind of criminal enterprise would seem to be its own punishment. In fact, if one was convicted of such a crime in those days, a sentence of forced labor making animal shapes from stones would no doubt be both ironic and appropriate.

But then, to be unsmart enough to carve them into the shape of a dinosaur?….The third piece appears to be a side view of a sauropod with a neck frill of some kind…like maybe Miragaia, but dude seriously!

The American Archaeologist Magazine of 1898; for Scientist and Student-A Monthly Journal Devoted to Archaeology and Ethnology was having none of it and editorialized strongly against the counterfeiters.

The Magazine noted:

“We have commenced in this number of The Archaeologist to give our opinion of relic counterfeiters in language that cannot be misconstrued; and we will continue the crusade against the scoundrels until their swindling is suppressed. Let us hear from our readers now”._-Editor

Photo:Counterfeit Relics?
Click for Higher Resolution

We must assume that their readers were also against counterfeiting “Indian relics”.

The editorial pulled no punches, naming the Robinette family of Hancock County Tennessee as one of the chief malefactors although they carefully noted that they also did a brisk trade in genuine “Indian” artifacts.
Clearly, the relics that appeared with the editorial arguably in the shape of prehistoric animals were in the class “fakes” and the very items which could have confused the public.

One of the Robinette family’s chief competitors chimed in and amazingly enough agreed wholeheartedly with the American Anthropologist in the matter. They also perhaps unwittingly identified the primary issue with respect to the ‘fake” relics in question:

A very honorable and reliable dealer in curios, in Ohio, writes us, under recent date, as follows:” I have in my possession one of J.T. Overstreet pipes which I can send you for examination if you wish. It is the best counterfeit pipe I have yet seen, and is well calculated to deceive anyone.

Don’t fail to show up these pipe fraud fiends, for I consider some of their pipes far more dangerous to our business and Your Science than the flint crooks.”.

From this time and distance we cannot comment as to the “fakeness” if any of the artifacts in question. No doubt, counterfeiting these artifacts was a serious problem. But where did these “counterfeiting fiends” get the idea to create fake artifacts in the shape of a sauropod?