Posts Tagged ‘Dinosaurs in Literature’

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2013


“When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; because of his crashings they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins.” Job 41 NKJV

           

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

by Chris Parker
Copyright 2013 C. Parker & S8int.com
Most Recent Prior Article on this topic; No Your Dinosaurs….

Good afternoon.

Dr. Ernst Mayr was a “leading” evolutionary biologist whose work provided a basis for what is known as the “modern synthesis” which is an amalgamation of Darwinian evolution theory and genetics. His work also provided the basis for Niles Eldredge’s and Stephen Jay Gould’s co theory of “punctuated equilibrium” –proposed because those biologists really did believe that “the extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology.”

Following Mayr’s lead they proposed that speciation could take place rapidly in small, isolated groups—where massive evolutionary leaps took place-making transitional fossils difficult to find because they would not exist. In that way they sought to solve a problem that most evolution believing laity don’t even know exists.

This same kind of ‘thought science” wherein motivated materialists scientists create interesting theories to solve or explain away “problems” with Materialist science is performed by; big bang cosmologists with their invisible dark matter and energy and, of course by other physicists who promote string theory (invisible, infinite universes) to explain the amazingly anthropic (man and life friendly) nature of this universe.

But back to Dr. Ernest Mayr; in a debate with Dr. Duane Gish in 1984, Dr. Mayr then a leading voice among evolutionists said the following:

“…creationists have stated that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries in time…Were this momentous statement true the names of its discoverers would thunder down the corridors of time as individuals who made one of the most outstanding discoveries of the twentieth century.”

No doubt, based on his statement Dr. Mayr, who died in 2005, was extremely certain that there were tens of millions of years standing between man and dinosaurs.

As a leading evolutionist and as one upon whose work much of the modern synthesis and neo Darwinism was built he well understood the havoc that would be wrought on materialist beliefs regarding the descent of species and the evolutionary and geological timelines if it could be proved that man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

Nevertheless our plan here at s8int.com today is to prove that Mayr’s “thundering down the corridors of time” should have begun even if this is now the 21st Century.

Toe-tally

The current evolutionary thinking regarding the manus and pes (hands and feet) of dinosaurs is that the fossils found with five fingers and toes are the most ancient dinosaurs and that through evolutionary change more “modern” dinosaurs evolved to have fewer fingers and toes.

This is the same kind of “logic” and thought used to assist in forming the well known but fact free horse evolutionary sequence. One might well wonder why fewer fingers and toes would be considered an evolutionary advancement? Is it a case of “I cried because I had no one finger gloves until I met a man with five fingers”?

Dr. Niles Eldredge, (mentioned above re: punctuated equilibrium) a curator at the American Museum in New York– where by the way the horse evolution series is still being shown said the following:

“There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.” ……Harper’s Magazine, 1985, p60.

The very masculine named Boyce Rensberger, science writer and evolutionist said the following regarding the famous horse series and its accompanying toe-tally ridiculous evolutionary assumptions:

“The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown” . Boyce Rensberger: Houston Chronicle, 5 Nov. 1980, sec. 4, p. 15.

Today it is only high school biology textbook writers and the evolution accepting laity who do not know that the evolutionary horse sequence, a supposed “proof” of the reality of biological evolution is wrong and is not actually supported by the fossil evidence. The same thing will eventually be found to be true of dinosaurs as well.

The dinosaur that we will look at today would have been one of the older dinosaurs according to evolutionary theory making its appearance in pre Columbian art even more of an upset. The other example which will be provided herein today is from a creature said by evolutionists to have lived even before the dinosaurs.

Let’s begin with the thundering down the corridors of time, already.

“265 Million Year Old” Therapsid Pre-Dinosaurs Carved Upon the Roof of the 1300 Year Old Kailashnath Temple (Ellora Caves)

Photo: Suresh.G.Isave – Roof of Kailas Temple, Ellora Caves,India



“Kailashnath Temple, also Kailash or Kail?sa or Kailasanath Temple, is a famous temple, one of the 34 monasteries and temples known collectively as the Ellora Caves, extending over more than 2 km, that were dug side by side in the wall of a high basalt cliff in the complex located at Ellora, Maharashtra, India.

Of these, the Kailasa (cave 16) is a remarkable example of Dravidian architecture on account of its striking proportion; elaborate workmanship architectural content and sculptural ornamentation of rock-cut architecture. It is designed to recall Mount Kailash, the abode of Lord Shiva. It is a megalith carved out of one single rock. It was built in the 8th century by the Rashtrakuta king Krishna I.” ….Wikipedia


Perhaps it is fitting to first look at an absolute dead, lock three dimensional sculpture of four therapsids atop the roof of the Temple at Kailashnath built around the 8th century A.D. Fitting to look at them first because evolutionists believe that they preceded the dinosaurs. Therapsida are a group of synapsids, which supposedly include mammals and their ancestors in the evolutionary scheme. Therapsid dicynodonts appeared on every continent.

These creatures are said by evolutionists to have appeared prior to the evolution of mammals and dinosaurs. We’ll consider the dinosaur “proof” as a second case study.

For comparison purposes we are showing the Ellora “lions” juxtaposed with Moschops, a specific therapsid (perhaps the most well known) whose fossils have been found primarily in South Africa.

As you can see there is a very close resemblance between the modern depictions of a therapsid and the ancient “lions” on the roof of the temple complex. The skull shape and other morphological characteristics, including the bent elbows, body shape etc. make therapsid a good initial identification.

By the way lions do have five toes/fingers on their front paws but the fifth is technically on the wrist and does not make contact with the ground. They do not really look like lions but they do have manes and there was no other ready identification or so it seems. They certainly were not ever going to be identified as therapsids.

In point of fact we have already looked at these creatures and identified them crypto-zoo-archaeologically as representations of dinocephalians like Moschops. What’s diiferent today is that the hands of these animals–God’s creatures are upon us. That is, we found a photo of them with significant enough resolution for us to be able to look at the morphological characteristics of the ancient artists depictions of their manus and pes (hands and feet).

The graphic/photo leading this section is a comparison of the “Ellora Lions” with a depiction of Moschops (top left).
The photo following right conclusively concurs with the therapsid identification. The hands (front feet) of therapsids such as moschops was quite unusual. They had tree-trunk like legs with five toes dispersed around in a semi-circle–exactly what we can clearly see in the combo photos comparing moschops front feet with that of the Ellora lions. In fact the similarities are uncanny, unmistakable and undeniable! These are not lions-they are therapsids very similar to moschops.


If therapsids were depicted 1300 years ago on the roof of the Ellora Cave complex then we need not give credence to evolutionist’s beliefs regarding when these creatures became extinct, what creatures allegedly evolved from which or even what their geological boundaries presumably were.

If the scientific understanding regarding when these creatures lived is off by 250 million years how can one credit anything else science would have to say concerning therapsids?

If you want to recreate this “proof” for yourself, I suggest the following: 1) “Google” or “Bing” search for, “Moschops” and then look at images. Pull down a few images of Moschops that you find expressive of what the creature may have looked like in the view of modern artists.

2)Pull up those photos in a photo editing program. 3)Google image search :”Ellora Caves, roof” or “Kailashnath Temple roof” until you find several showing the “lions”. 4)Download or copy some of those pictures and compare in your photo editing program with Moschops. You should see some very strong similarities between the two sets because the creatures on the roof are in fact therapsids—supposedly extinct tens and tens of millions of years ago.

Next, as an additional “proof” go back to Google and do an image search of Moschops, “feet”, or Moschops “manus” (hands). With a little persistence you will find a drawing or a photo which shows the tree trunk like front legs with five fingers distributed like rose petals in a semi circle around the legs. The toes of this creature are unusual in their shape and distribution and this pattern will be easy to recognize when seen again.

Go back to Google (or Bing) and find a very high resolution of the lion’s feet from the roof of the Ellora complex. This result will be instantly recognizable and conclusive. These creatures can be seen from virtually every angle in various online photographs. The “lions” of the Ellora Caves have all the morphological features of a therapsid dicynodont.

It wouldn’t be that easy to lose 250 million years overnight I’m sure. Darwinists claim that this creature was a mammal-like reptile but given its mammal like external ears and hair perhaps it was a mammal- a fact which in and of itself would destroy the evolution tree.

Photo: Anteosaurus is a therapsid whose fossil’s have been found in India.


Coelacanth aside Darwinists could not possibly be this wrong– you might reason. If after looking at these photos you are still not convinced that the same creature that is represented online as a therapsid dicynodont is the same creature with the same matching manus and pes (hands and feet)and not a bit of doubt was created then you might want to consider the following:

Your belief in the Darwinian system and all its attendant precepts, corollaries, speculations and just so stories may not be evidenced based. Perhaps your belief in this system is “faith” based after all and there is no “evidence” pro or con which could persuade you that man and dinosaur ever co-existed or that the “extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology”.

You may be a “true believer”?

           

700 Year Old Plumbate Vessel Features A Dinosaur with Hands and Feet Clearly Depicted


“Regarding the timing of this vessel, Garduño said that this is late-characterized by its decorative variant cutaway designs are distinguished by their angular strokes a stiff-pot Iguanas Polychrome type, which is one of the components ceramic diagnostics Ixcuintla cultural phase (1100-1350 AD), Middle Postclassic, which represents the later stage in the long sequence of regional development Aztatlán culture.

This is extremely significant if we consider that the leading specialists in the study of iconic ceramic codex type Mixteca-Puebla style, agree that this appeared in the central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) during the Late Postclassic (1250-1521 AD), and even at a later date to 1300 AD in the Oaxacan Mixteca”.. Source:Puerta Norte Acaponeta http://elblogpuertanorte.blogspot.com/2013/05/recupera-el-centro-inah-nayarit.html

Photo: iguanodon with “Hands”


Plumbate ware was manufactured by the ancient Toltecs and is found all around Central America. It was quite frequently orange in color or glossy with incised art.

I have looked at quite a number of pieces of pre Columbian art. Upon initial inspection (FIG 1)I thought that it was perhaps the head of a dinosaur projecting from the vessel but like a number of those pieces that we’ve examined on s8int.com, I wondered if it would be convincing to the true believers or rather the true Unbelievers.


Then as I examined the incision I noticed that it appeared to have elbows and a hand with a number of fingers–with a particularly prominent thumb or possibly a thumb claw. Noting the teeth I thought it most probably a meat-eater and so set to work researching dinosaur fingers and toes etc.. Of course I also initially looked at the dinosaurs of Central and South America.



Dinosaurs with five fingers (or so it appears to have) with the teeth of a theropod dinosaur are supposed to be some of the oldest dinosaurs. “Basal theropods”-and of course I believe in no such thing.. and other dinosaurs with five or four fingers (the depiction appears to be five fingers with only the knuckle of one of the fingers showing) include certain theropods, famously, iguanosaurus and plateosaurus. FIG 2 shows a comparison between the hand of plateosaurus, left, the “hand” of the artifact, center and iguanosaurus, right. Baryonx, a European dinosaur with South American “cousins” in the spinosaurid family is shown in the photo at the top of this article due to its prominent thumb claw- similar to that depicted on the plumbate artifact. FIG 2A shows the upturned hand of the artifact compared with the upturned hand of iguanosaurus with his well known thumb claw.

“The most primitive dinosaurs in the famous theropod group (that later included Tyrannosaurus rex) had five “fingers.” Later theropods had three…” Live Science


After quite a bit of research I was able to find an additional photograph of this artifact and thus was able to see in some detail the artist’s rendering of both the hands and feet of the animal depicted. These fingers and toes make it a certainty that it is a dinosaur that is being depicted by the artist and even provides clues as to the specific species of dinosaur that the artist was able to interact with.



The complete thoroughness of the artist’s rendition of this dinosaur indicates that he/she was familiar with this creature and that he/she had specific morphological knowledge of how the creature moved and how it looked. The dinosaur being depicted is apparently bi-pedal and the artist’s sculpture of how that creature moved is exactly how modern artists might have depicted a bi-pedal dinosaur.

The new photo shows the creature from the other side. What’s clear is that what we are looking at on the other side is a five, possibly four fingered dinosaur hand. The two sides are not identical and the new photo provides details of the elbow, the hand, and the rear feet (See FIG 6). It appears from this side that the hand is represented as three extended fingers and two knuckles.



I believe that the creature’s reptilian head and aspect along with its meat eating dinosaur teeth if I may– comfortably place it in the dinosaur realm for those with open minds.

Spend a few minutes Googling iguana hands or lizard hands as well as the hands of dinosaurs and the conclusion will be all but inescapable. In the end I’ve moved away from the iguanodon identification because of the teeth of this dinosaur. The teeth are of different sizes with very large teeth at the front. A dinosaur that meets the qualifications of being a meat eater, with five fingers and heterodontal (different sized) (See FIG 7) teeth with relatives found in South America is the heterodontosaurus.

Photo: Plumbate dinosaur depiction compared to skeleton of heterodontosaurus FIG 5.



Heterodontosauridae (“different-toothed lizards”) is a family of early ornithischian dinosaurs that were likely among the most basal (primitive) members of the group. Although their fossils are rare, they lived around the globe beginning in the late Triassic Period, and a few late-surviving species persisted into the Early Cretaceous.

Heterodontosaurids were fox-sized dinosaurs less than 2 meters (6.6 ft) in length, including a long tail. They are known mainly for their characteristic teeth, including enlarged canine-like tusks and cheek teeth adapted for chewing, analogous to those of Cretaceous hadrosaurids. Their diet was herbivorous or possibly omnivorous.

Manidens is a genus of heterodontosaurid dinosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Patagonia. Fossils have been found from the Cañadon Asfalto Formation in Chubut Province, Argentina, dating to the Bajocian…Wikipedia



In the next few slides we compare the ancient, pre Columbian artifact with Ceratosaurus and Herrerasaurus. Ceratosaurus because it is a “basal” theropod with an interesting fingers that also had some interesting “head” features such as a snout horn and other protuberances on its head which might incline one to consider it as the animal being depicted. However, assuming that the artist had an actual creature in mind, the teeth did not appear to match.

On the whole though I believe that the ceratosaurus depiction assists us in seeing how close the ancient depiction is to that of modern dinosaur depictions.

The other depiction is of Herrerasaurus. Herrerasaurus had claws similar to those of the plateosaurus above (FIG 2).

Herrerasaurus was given the name “Herrera lizard” because it was found by an Andean goat farmer named Victorino Herrera…Wikipedia.

Photo: Artifact compared to Heterodontosaurus.



The ancient artifact from central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) was likely manufactured 600 t0 700 years ago during the Late Postclassic period between (1250-1521 AD. The artist clearly represented the hands, fingers, head, dentition and rear feet of a bi-pedal dinosaur which had to be living at the time. It was a dinosaur (animal) that he was very familiar with. We can match the fingers and toes with several species of dinosaur though we will admit that a final identification as to species is inconclusive. A dinosaur identification is however; conclusive.

In his review of Carl Sagan’s last book in his review entitled “Billions and Billions of Demons”, Harvard university evolutionist Richard Lewontin said the following.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ”

One can select more than one response in the Poll below.

Convinced that Man and Dinosaur Lived Together?

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I love that quote because it is so honest. Never mind the scientific process we take these positions because we refuse A priori to believe in God or in anything which would tend to prove that God exists. Unfortunately for Lewontin et. al., they have not succeeded. The “Divine foot” has always been completely through the door.

The evidence demonstrated by these two artifacts shows that never mind the Divine Foot, Lewontin et. al.,- the hand of God’s dinosaur is upon thee as is the whole creation.

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody!
Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody.

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 19 2013


Isaiah 35:7
“And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water; in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.”

           
“No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”. by Chris Parker, s8int.com
           

Before you vote; See the follow up to this article Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Did Ancient Artists See and Memorialize Dinosaurs In Their Art?

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Prologue

In the movie; “The Princess Bride” an important character, Inigo has a conversation with the man in black during a sword fight and that conversation has become a trope in television and movies (convention or device used in creative works). The conversation goes something like this:

Inigo: “I admit it: you are better than I am!”
Man in Black: “Then why are you smiling?”
Inigo: “Because I know something you don’t know.”
Man in Black: “And what is that?”
Inigo: “I AM NOT LEFT HANDED” [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]

I sometimes have the feeling that I am in Inigo’s position when I find myself in a conversation with someone about man and dinosaurs living at the same time.

“You believe that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time within the last 10,000 years they’ll say incredulously”? Or perhaps they’ll say it sneeringly, or contemptuously or in some rare cases even sadly or compassionately.

They are quite certain that they have the upper hand, the science, the good sense, the pure knowledge the unmitigated certainty. They slap their foreheads. They roll their eyes. All that. They believe that they are winning this “fight”-discussion-debate because-come on! They may even be fellow believers.

They’re thinking that I have set science aside for some kind of blind faith belief in what science has said is impossible-for the sake of the Bible. They’re thinking I’m living in some anti-science anti-evidence bubble. However, as a Christian I have choices. I could believe as some Christian’s do that God created through evolution and that man and dinosaur did miss each other by millions of years.

I could believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and thus man and dinosaur barely met. I could believe as some Christians do that God sent unbelievers a strong delusion because of their unbelief (Romans 1) and simply put the bones of animals that never existed in the ground in order to further delude them.

I could simply choose not to speak when this topic is raised thinking that as a Christian it is outside of my pay grade, that the answers are unknowable. I could choose to be cowed by the sheer numbers of people who unblinkingly accept the current paradigm.

Caption: The Real Postosuchus? See Below

But I know something they don’t know. I took a fact based approach. I went where the evidence took me and in this internet age the truth can be found. Many non-Christians don’t know that faith is supposed to be built- not on nothing as they assume—but on evidence. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 1:1

I have spent a lot of time sifting through the evidence in ancient history, the work of ancient “biologists” the articles in old newspapers and recently the evidence in world famous archaeological museums. The evidence is clear. The evidence is persuasive.

The evidence proves that dinosaurs and man lived together all over the world in the last few thousand years. Now, the Bible is a “type” of sword and in this dinosaur and man conversation we’re having they are the ones who don’t have the facts or the truth. There is a reason why I am smiling:– I AM NOT LEFT HANDED!

Peabody Museum Zoomorphic Stone Heads

Historians say that dragons appear in the history and art of virtually every ancient culture (as do stories of a great flood). Here’s an interesting fact along those lines; no matter what culture a piece of ancient art comes from everyone can instantly recognize a dragon. Isn’t that interesting? Here we have a supposedly completely mythological creature, a product of the imagination of man and culture and yet they agree across geography and time in the salient characteristics of their portrayals with the added peculiarity that everyone knows that they are dragons?

No modern artist who works for a science journal or a museum or is otherwise engaged in depicting dinosaurs from a few bones is going to draw a dragon-like creature. So, although dragons are reptilian, frightening sometimes preternaturally large creatures—and so are dinosaurs they don’t often look much alike when you get down to the details. But here’s the rub when it comes to that; no one living actually knows what dinosaurs looked like.

In prior articles on this topic we’ve often quoted Discover Magazine on this point;

There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster. Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. Discover Magazine, What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like? By William Speed Weed, Christopher Griffith|Friday, September 01, 2000

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/sep/featdino

Of course, Discover Magazine isn’t the only source that admits that science is just guessing when it puts forth a drawing or illustration of a dinosaur—particularly when many dinosaurs are only known from a few bones.

A new book entitled “All Yesterdays: Unique and Speculative Views of Dinosaurs and Other Prehistoric Animals” by paleo artists C.M Koseman and John Conway is a review of dinosaur depictions and misconceptions in science art and a speculation about potential alternate depictions. They are basically letting the reader in on their secret that the work they do is simply informed speculation.


In the photo on the right they freely speculate on how a dinosaur paleontologist might have interpreted the bones (absent muscle and soft parts) of the cow and the housecat (bottom).

This interpretation problem makes it tougher on “crypto-zoo-archaeologists” like me. My hypothesis that man and dinosaur lived during the same age and that the ancient peoples would have left evidence in the form of their art, history and artifacts is complicated by the fact that the work of paleo artists today might not match up with the work of the actual eyewitnesses living in the past.

Thus, for instance a dinosaur in an archaeological museum like Harvard’s Peabody Museum might be perfectly depicted by the ancient artist but not match up with current thinking on how that dinosaur looked and go unrecognized; categorized as zoomorphic, unknown, animal, mythological creature or simply reptile. (Actually my experience is that any depiction recognizable as a dinosaur or one which is deemed too close does not end up in the front room of the museum in any case).

For example, in eyewitness viewings of what I believe are living pterosaurs over the last few years some have described the creature the saw as “almost prehistoric looking”, which could mean that they saw a living creature that did not completely comport with modern illustrations of the creature.

Moche Culture Vase in the Form of…?

In the last few weeks I set out to prove my hypothesis at the Harvard Peabody, online archaeological museum site as well as at other online collection sites. The Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University “is steward to one of the oldest and largest collections of cultural objects in the Western Hemisphere”. Other online collections visited include, the Penn Museum, the Met and several Museums of Central and South America.

Could it be shown that creatures that are recognizable as dinosaurs and Not dragons-in the mythological sense are somehow going unnoticed in their online collections? Can we show how specific types of dinosaurs might have been erroneously depicted? In that case, the depiction would have to be close enough for an identification to be made.

In this article and shall we say “collection” I intend to show once again through the arts of ancient peoples that man and dinosaur lived together within the last 5,000 years—but only to the fair and open minded.

           
The Eyewitness to Recent, Ancient History Dinosaur Collection, Part 1

1)Chasmosaurus at the Museo Larco, Peru


Actually it is not a piece from the Peabody that I wish to start with. It is a piece from the Museo Larco that illustrates the points we have been making about identification and misidentification most clearly. (See complete vessel at top of this article).

The Larco Museum (Spanish: Museo Arqueológico Rafael Larco Herrera) is a privately owned museum of pre-Columbian art, located in the Pueblo Libre District of Lima, Peru. The museum is housed in an 18th-century vice-royal building built over a 7th-century pre-Columbian pyramid.

The Inca civilization spanned the period of 1438 to 1533 in pre-Columbian South America. That would make this piece between 500 to 600 years old.

Inca Pot Water Carrier Lima
Museo Larco, Peru

I believe that the animal atop this Inca water carrier (and atop this article) is a ceratopsian dinosaur of a type similar to Chasmosaurus particularly given the placement of its horn and the shape of its frill. Ceratopsians might have broken down neatly into the categories now suggested by science or they could have been as widely divergent as dogs are today. They may have been sexually dimorphic and animals identified as belonging to another species may have only been sexually dimorphic or juvenile versions of other science-identified species.

“Chasmosaurus (/?kæzm??s?r?s/ KAZ-mo-SAWR-?s) is a genus of ceratopsid dinosaur from the Upper Cretaceous Period of North America. Its name means ‘opening lizard’, referring to the large openings (fenestrae) in its frill (Greek chasma meaning ‘opening’ or ‘hollow’ or ‘gulf’ and sauros meaning ‘lizard’). With a length of 4–5 metres (13–16 ft) and a weight of 2 tonnes (2.2 short tons), Chasmosaurus was a ceratopsian of average size. Like all ceratopsians, it was purely herbivorous. It was initially to be called Protorosaurus, but this name had been previously published for another animal.

All specimens of Chasmosaurus were collected from the Dinosaur Park Formation of the Dinosaur Provincial Park of Alberta, Canada. C. russelli comes from the lower beds of the formation while C. belli comes from middle and upper beds. “…Wikipedia


Let me explain what I believe that you’re looking at. It is a ceratopsian dinosaur similar to the Chasmosaurus. It is 500 years old. The right horn has broken off and is probably what is seen on the animal’s right side from the reader’s perspective.

The heavy ceratopsian tail curls up at the back and the animal fits in terms of body shape and tail for a ceratopsian. The animal has a crest and you should be able to see that the complete head, ending behind the horns includes a solid neck frill ending in a ‘V” shape similar to that of the chasmosaurus. In the photo on the left I have thoughtfully replaced the animals missing horn. The artist took pains to make sure that the ceratopsian toes were outlined for the viewer as well.

I believe what we have here is a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur that differs slightly from what one expects given modern depictions. The beak is slightly less pronounced-but evident. The horns are actually in the exact place on its head as the horns on modern Chasmosaurus depictions. The creature has growths (possibly pre-horn?) growths on the front of its face that are not seen on ceratopsian depictions.

This is clearly a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur by an actual eyewitness some 500 years ago in pre Columbian South America. It should be noted that all the ceratopsia were supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

2)Peabody Museum ”6,000 to 7,000 Year Old” Ceramic Bottle with Bi-Pedal Dinosaur (Iguanodon?) from South America

“Peabody Number: 90-27-30/54866
Display Title: Black ware stirrup spouted vase
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic bottle, stirrup spout, chipped rim, animal effigy, molded body, lying on its side.
Classification:
Stirrup spout
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru
Materials: Ceramic


The earliest ceramics known from the Americas have been found in the lower Amazon Basin. Ceramics from the Caverna de Pedra Pintada, near Santarém, Brazil, have been dated to 7,500 to 5,000 years ago. Ceramics from Taperinha, also near Santarém, have been dated to 7,000 to 6,000 years ago.” Peabody Museum

This appears to me quite clearly to represent some type of bi-pedal theropod dinosaur. Here we show the artifact on its side so that the identification of this dinosaur is more easily made.
The trio below is shown with two versions of the dinosaur iguanodon, a bi-pedal dinosaur which has been found in North America.

Distinctive features of iguanodon include large thumb spikes, which were possibly used for defence against predators, combined with long prehensile fifth fingers able to forage for food…Wikipedia.

Unfortunately that part of the sculpture has been worn away-like noses in Egyptian artifacts. Part of the tail has apparently broken off as well. I believe that this piece represents a bi pedal theropod dinosaur like iguanodon or a relative.

           

3)Postosuchus Sculpted by Pre Columbians From the Period AD 500-1350 at The Walters Art Museum?
The creature displayed at the top of the pre Columbian incense burner could be called a dragon, a crocodilian (the museum I.D.) or a mythical creature–but no one who believes that dinosaurs and their alleged ancestors died out more than 65 million years ago would ever think of this as a recently extinct, living creature.

Taking that point of view it is easy to ignore the reptilian/dinosaur like armor, the teeth which no lizard ever sported and the distinct horns. In looking at the creature carefully with the assumption that a living creature was being depicted a tentative crypto-zoo-archaeological identification is that of an archosaur like postosuchus.


Postosuchus, meaning “crocodile from Post”, is an extinct genus of rauisuchian reptiles…Postosuchus is a member of the clade Pseudosuchia, the lineage of archosaurs that includes modern crocodilians (the other main group of archosaurs is Avemetatarsalia, the lineage that includes non-avian dinosaurs and their descendants, birds). Its name refers to Post Quarry, a place in Texas where many fossils of the type species, P. kirkpatricki, were found…

Although the heavy build of the skeleton suggests that Postosuchus walked on all four limbs, the extreme shortness of the forelimbs relative to the hind limbs is a strong indication that Postosuchus was able to walk on two legs…Postosuchus possessed heterodonty dentition, which means each tooth was different in size and shape from the others.

A feature of the skull of postosuchus is a “crest” over each eye. Modern artists have had to decide how to draw or illustrate that skull feature and most have not significantly featured them. This piece from the Walters Art Museum has “eye crests” like those of postosuchus which are more clearly featured as crests above each eye.

In other pieces we’ve noted the three toes of a depiction which were similar to dinosaur toes. Postosuchus actually had a different manus and pes than did the dinosaurs. In the minds of scientists postosuchus and its relatives actually preceded the dinosaurs. Of course, most creationists believe that they lived at the same time.


The Museum Description: This incense burner is topped with the portrayal of a caiman or other member of the Crocodylidae family, one of the frequent animal spirit forms of Central American shamans. Its particularly aggressive stance may refer to the practitioner’s battle against supernatural forces.

Many such incense burners were found ritually broken on the slopes of a principal volcano on the island of Ometepe in Lake Nicaragua, the incense burner lid with its smoke issuing from the top mimicking an active volcano.


Among peoples from southern Nicaragua to Mesoamerica the earth was likened to the back of a crocodile floating in the primordial sea, its dorsal scutes being the volcanic north-south backbone that defines the continents of the Western Hemisphere. This incense burner, then, constitutes a profound ritual vessel pertaining to the transition from the natural to the supernatural realms and a symbolic model of the ancient Costa Rican world.


Uh, huh. That’s pretty complicated. Maybe it’s just a depiction of some exceptional local fauna of the time; an or perhaps a small dinosaur of unknown type. Certainly if this same depiction appeared on a site featuring artists renditions of dinosaurs this piece would not be out of place.

The photos above show comparisons of the ancient art work with modern depictions of postosuchus (without the strong “crests” and body armor and in comparison to the skull and the full skeleton of postosuchus. The comparisons appear to me to show a similarity of this depiction with that of one of the archosaurs–such as postosuchus. The feet are not those of a dinosaurs (many are three toed) but the feet of the animal depicted do correspond to that of our identification.

           

4)Nayarit Chinesco “Embryonic Dog” May Be Baby Sauropod


Nayarit is a state in western Mexico. The Nayarit culture from which this artifact comes is from the period 300 B.C. to 400 A.D.—or even older. This piece is said to represent an embryonic dog. Another identification would seem to be in order for this piece.

           
For one thing, dogs do not have necks this long. Here I’ve shown it in comparison to an animal that really did have such a long neck; the sauropod dinosaur.

Nayarit Chinesco Pottery Painted Embryonic Dog
Online Collections Auction
Auction date November 2012
Pre-Columbian, West Mexico, Ca. 300 BC to 200 AD.
Buff pottery, unique representation, elastic form.
Surface has traces of original polychrome color.
Provenance: Ex-Dr. R. Boyd Stifler, Vanderwagen NM.
Rare specimen Authenticity Guaranteed
Condition:Some wear to surface and with nice dendrite
deposits.”..Online Collections

Recently a sauropod embryo was found and the sauropod embryo depicted comes from the “Tiniest Giants: Discovering Dinosaur Eggs”.

Sauropods are supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

5)Ancient Pueblo Culture (1200 B.C.-1500 A.D.) Native Americans of What is Now Arizona Craft Dinosaur Named Aetosaur; Most of Whose Fossils Have Been Found in Arizona

           
Aetosaur Skeleton Top and Ancient Pueblo Artifact below.


“The Pueblo people are Native American people in the Southwestern United States comprising several different language groups and two major cultural divisions, one organized by matrilineal kinship systems and the other having a patrilineal system.

These determine the clan membership of children, and lines of inheritance and descent. Their traditional economy is based on agriculture and trade. At the time of Spanish encounter in the 16th century, they were living in villages that the Spanish called pueblos, meaning “towns””…Wikipedia

This piece comes from a 1936 expedition to the Hopi reservation and was determined to be from one of the Pueblo Native American cultures. It is described by the Peabody Museum as “zoomorphic”. Looking at a list of dinosaur fossils found in Arizona one can quickly see that there is a similarity between the archaeological piece and –the aetosaur. (Angle of aetosaur skeleton head adjusted for comparison purposes.)

“Aetosaurs order name Aetosauria from Greek, ????? (aetos, “eagle”) and ?????? (sauros, “lizard”)) are an extinct order of heavily armoured, medium- to large-sized Late Triassic herbivorous archosaurs. They have small heads, upturned snouts, erect limbs, and a body covered by plate-like scutes. All aetosaurs belong to the family Stagonolepididae.

Most fossils have been found from Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas…Wikipedia

.

Here is a sobering fact for those of us who can accept the fact that the ancient Pueblo people of Arizona actually saw and depicted an aetosaur which supposedly lived from 200 million years ago becoming extinct 65 million years or more ago;


“Since their armoured plates are often preserved and are abundant in certain localities, aetosaurs serve as important Late Triassic tetrapod index fossils. Many aetosaurs had wide geographic ranges, but their stratigraphic ranges were relatively short. Therefore, the presence of particular aetosaurs can accurately date a site that they are found in.”

You see the problem? Aetosaurs were roaming around the North American continent during the span of the Pueblo peoples; 1200 B.C. to 1500 A.D. and one of their artists memorialized the aetosaur in ceramic.

Peabody Number: 36-131-10/8060
Display Title: Zooomorphic black on white potsherd–animal form
Inventory Description: Ceramic, zoomorphic figurine, with tail, opened mouth, two feet, black painted design on back and sides
Classification: Figurine
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Pueblo
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arizona/Navajo County/Hopi Reservation/Antelope Mesa/Awatovi
Intrasite: Test 14
Geo-Locale: Antelope Mesa
Materials: Ceramic Pigment
Provenance: Dr. John Otis Brew (1936)
Provenance: Peabody Museum Expedition (1936)

           
6) Crested Hadrosaur Depiction by the Ancient Peoples of Costa Rica at the Peabody Museum. (Modern Artists May Need to Put Some Weight on the Bones of these Depictions)

Crested Dinosaurs are fairly easy to recognize. Most of the crested dinosaurs are from the Lambeosaurinae of the hadrosaur group. The hadrosaurs were also known as the duck billed dinosaurs.


This depiction forms the legs of an ancient pottery piece. The pot is from Costa Rica, Central America. The crests on the various types of lambosaurines differed in size and shape even among the same species and they likely differed due to age and due to sexual dimorphism.

The hadrosaurs depicted have relatively small, round crests. Here we compare them to a number of known lambeosaurines including corythsaurus.


It is interesting that the depictions are clearly of the same animal but that the portraits differ. The ancient depictions are similar to modern ones except for the apparent weight of the creatures and the size of the eyes depicted.

“Archaeologists now know that civilization existed in Costa Rica for thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus, and evidence of human occupation in the region dates back 10,000 years. Among the cultural mysteries left behind by the area’s pre-Columbian inhabitants are thousands of perfectly spherical granite bolas that have been found near the west coast.


The sizes of these inimitable relics range from that of a baseball to that of a Volkswagen bus. Ruins of a large, ancient city complete with aqueducts were recently found east of San Jose, and some marvelously sophisticated gold and jade work was being wrought in the southwest as far back as 1,000 years ago. Some archeological sites in the central highlands and Nicoya peninsula have shown evidence of influence from the Mexican Olmec and Nahuatl civilizations.

By the time Columbus arrived, there were four major indigenous tribes living in Costa Rica. The east coast was the realm of the Caribs, while the Borucas, Chibchas, and Diquis resided in the southwest. “..geographia.com

Peabody Number: 26-44-20/C9956
Display Title: Small pottery vessel
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic complete tripod jar, zoomorphic rattle feet (1 missing)
Classification: Jar
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
Central America/Costa Rica

           

7)A New Look at Dicynodont Therapsids Like Moschop from the Ancient Peoples Living I Peru, South America


The identity of this animal portrait was unknown apparently and thus it was given the general description “animal effigy” by the Harvard Peabody Museum. Was this animal purely a mythological one seen only in the imaginary eye of the artist—or was it seen with the artist’s actual eyes?

As you will see the depiction of the living therapsid is actually close enough to modern depictions of these types of creatures as to be readily identified. In appearance it is close to that of therapsids such as moschops which we know from fossils found in South Africa.

‘Moschops (Greek for “calf face”) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Guadalupian epoch, around 268-260 million years ago. Therapsids are synapsids which were at one time the dominant land animals. It was around 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in) long..

….Moschops was heavily built, and had short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. Moschops mostly ate plants, but sometimes ate meat. The forelegs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind legs were under the body, like those of a mammal.” Wikipedia

Peabody Number: 46-77-30/5868
Display Title: Pottery animal figurine
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy
Classification: Whistle
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru/La Libertad Region///Sausal
Materials: Ceramic


Here we show the ancient, ceramic artifact in comparison to moschop and to another dicynodont therapsid. Moschops and therapsids similar to him supposedly went extinct before the dinosaurs even evolved. Clearly of this ancient Peruvian artifact represents one of these creatures something is extremely wrong with the evolutionary time scale.
           

8) Quapaw’s “Underwater Panther” from the 1500”s Could In Fact Be an Eyewitness Depiction of Dinosaur Such As Tenontosaurus


According to Wikipedia the Mississippian culture was a mound building group of indigenous people who lived in the Midwestern, Eastern, and Southeastern United States from approximately 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. The collectors at Artsmia.org believe it to be a depiction of a mythological creature called an underwater panther. That makes these people seem “mystical” all right.

But what if it is an accurate depiction of an animal living at the time that we would call a dinosaur-rendered somewhat invisible as a depiction because modern versions of the creature differ greatly? Here is the museum description:

“The prominent colored swirls and eye motifs mark this animal as an Underwater Panther, one of the primary beings in the ancient Mississippian belief system and that of their descendants. The swirling pattern on its sides signifies water, while the eye markings allude to the animal’s unusually keen vision.

Red and white were symbolically significant colors that represented fundamental oppositions such as peace and war, light and dark and the on-going struggle between the celestial and subterranean realms. Underwater Panthers belonged to the subterranean and possessed great supernatural power. Their significance led Mississippian and subsequent artists to depict them frequently in many forms and media, including three-dimensional sculptures like this vessel. “

The toes of this creature appear to be triple toed-similar to a dinosaur. Its tail is very thick in the way dinosaur tails are often illustrated by modern paleo artists. I took a look to see what types of dinosaur fossils were prominent with respect to quadruped dinosaurs in those parts of the United States.


Here we show the “underwater panther” in comparison to tenontosaurus a genus of medium to large ornnithopod dinosaurs. It should be noted that there were a number of ornnithopod dinosaurs found to have lived in those parts of north America which would have had similar body shapes.

The genus tenontosaurus is known from the late Aptian to Albian ages of the middle Cretaceous period sediments of western North America, dating between 115 to 108 million years ago. It was formerly thought to be a ‘hypsilophodont’, but since Hypsilophodontia is no longer considered a clade, it is now considered to be a very primitive iguanodont.

The teeth of this portrait do give me pause. The point is however not that we know the specific type of dinosaur that was sculpted, but rather that it is more likely that it is a dinosaur being depicted here rather than an underwater panther (which itself sounds like a cryptid).

Vessel
Artist Unknown (Quapaw)
(United States, North America), c. 1500
Ceramic, pigment
9 1/8 x 10 3/8 x 5 1/4 in. (23.18 x 26.35 x 13.34 cm)
The William Hood Dunwoody Fund 2004.33

           

9)Metropolitan Museum of Asian Art’s Sauropod Dinosaur from Iran 250 B.C. to 225 A.D.


This artifact is from the Metropolitan Museum of Asian art and is labeled “zoomorphic”. I’m somewhat surprised that they didn’t call it a camel. Clearly however it is a sculpted ceramic in the form of a sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago according to science. This piece was estimated to have been made between 250 B.C. and 225 A.ZD. That period obviously covers the time of Christ.

Zoomorphic vessel
250 B.C.E.- 225 C.E.
Parthian period
Ceramic
H: 15.2 W: 28.4 D: 12.1 cm
Northern Iran, Northern Iran S1987.944

           

10) Ulisse Aldrovandi’s Detailed Drawing of A Long Tailed Pterosaur; Before They Were “Discovered” By Science

Ulisse Aldrovandi (also Aldrovandus) was born in 1522 and died in 1605. He is sometimes referred to as the father of natural history studies. By profession he was a professor of philosophy but eventually became one of the first professors of the natural sciences at Bologna (no offense intended).


Ulisse died 250 years before the first pterosaur was discovered by a scientist and he mistakenly thought it was a sea going creature. It was not until the beginning of the 19th century that science realized that pterosaurs were flying creatures.

“The first pterosaur fossil was described by the Italian naturalist Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini misinterpreted his specimen as a seagoing creature that used its long front limbs as paddles.

A few scientists continued to support the aquatic interpretation even until 1830, when the German zoologist Johann Georg Wagler suggested that Pterodactylus used its wings as flippers. Georges Cuvier first suggested that pterosaurs were flying creatures in 1801, and coined the name “Ptero-dactyle” in 1809 for the specimen recovered in Germany.” …Wikipedia

After his death his book Serpentum, et draconum historiæ Serpentum, et Draconum was published. In it, was a drawing supposedly from life (well it was dead!) of a dragon which comports very well with a long tailed, crested pterosaur especially given that Aldrovandi was a philosopher and naturalist –and not an artist.

The interesting thing about Aldrovandi’s pterosaur is that it has the crest of the pteranodon and the tail of one of the long tailed rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Although we don’t know this exact pterosaur from science it closely matches modern day eyewitness descriptions and drawings of a long tailed pterosaur. (There are long tail crested pterosaurs known to science but none with the classic bone sticking out the back of its head kind).

Note what might look like another set of small wings at the legs of Aldrovandi’s dragon. It is shown here in the more modern drawing between the pteranodon’s legs. That is called the uropatagium; and since it does not appear on birds it is one indication that Aldrovandi actually saw what he drew.

“some pterosaur groups had a membrane that stretched between the legs, possibly connecting to or incorporating the tail, called the uropatagium; the extent of this membrane isn’t certain, as studies on Sordes seem to suggest that it simply connected the legs but did not involve the tail (rendering it a cruropatagium). It is generally agreed though that non-pterodactyloid pterosaurs had a broader uro/cruropatagium, with pterodactyloids only having membranes running along the legs; Pteranodon in particular might have developed/redeveloped an uropatagium, given the structure of the tail”..Wikipedia

The picture on the right (above) shows Aldrovandi’s dragon compared to Eskin Kuhn’s drawing (bottom, right) from his eyewitness sighting in the 1970’s. Kuhn was an artist and a soldier stationed at Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. His “pteranodon” had both the backwards facing “crest” and the long tail with tail vain of the rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Top right is a modern drawing of a pteranodon without the long tail. Aldrovandi has the tail, crest and bat like wings of a pterosaur.
           

11) Peabody Museum Seeks to Make an Ancient Veraguas Culture Dinosaur Evolve Into a Bird Right Before Our Eyes

The “Bird” effigy ceramic whistle (middle) is from the ancient Veraguas Culture of Panama. That culture inhabited Panama from approximately 700 A.D. to 1530 A.D.

“This culture inhabited the central region of what is now province of Veraguás in Panama. The area extends from the Pacific to the Caribbean coast and includes a number of islands. The climate here is mainly humid and tropical, and the landscape includes wooded areas and valleys suitable for agriculture, as well as high mountains, hilly areas, and coastal lowlands.” Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino


The ceramic sculpture with three legs does not have the correct number for either the bird (two) or the crested hadrosaur (four). My take is that given the teeth (which birds do not have) and the thick tail this is not a depiction of a bird but rather of a crested hadrosaur such as corythosaurus.

The single combined front legs represent the two front legs of the creature and this is not uncommon with pre Columbian art. One can certainly decide for his or her self.

Peabody Number: 39-90-20/6461
Display Title: Pottery bird effigy whistle. Light brown, probably faded from red.
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy with tripod legs
Classification: Ceramic
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Veraguas
Geography/Provenience: Central America/Panama/Veraguas

           

12)Plesiosaur or Dinosaur? Mythological or Cryptozoological?


Here are a number of ancient artifacts that do beg the question; sea monster or dinosaur. It may not be clear what animal the artist has in mind but I believe that they so clearly mirror what modern day artists see as dinosaurs and marine reptiles that they simply cannot be imaginary creatures.

The ancient artist in each case intended to represent an actual living creature and they must have expected the beholder to recognize what the creature was as well. In each of these examples only a portion of the animal is sculpted making the crypto detective work more difficult.

In situations like these the museum or the auction house usually leaves this kind of speculation to the viewer but often uses the term “zoomorphic” as the description. Often as well they will name a creature for which if it were truly what the ancient artist intended he/she would have proven to be a terrible artist. That should drive down prices!

Christie’s auction house described this artifact as a horse which may seem reasonable at first but no horse would have that long a neck. Alternative identifications include the plesiosaur or a dinosaur. Plesiosaurs of course supposedly went extinct around 65 million years ago as did it is claimed, the dinosaur.

The artifact is thought to have come from the period of up to 1,000 Years before Christ.

Christie’s
• Overview
• Features
Lot Description
ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TERRACOTTA ZOOMORPHIC RHYTON
CIRCA LATE 1ST MILLENNIUM B.C.

One in the form of a seated camel, black glazed, carrying two jars on either side of its back; another in the form of a horse, a strap handle joining the rim to the back of the vessel, a perforation at the top of the head forming the spout, 16 cm. high max.; an Amlash terracotta steatopygous idol, possibly 2nd Millenium B.C., 20.5 cm. high, mounted (repaired); and a bull rhyton, not ancient, 15 cm. high (4)

This item is described as a “serpent” effigy bowl; perhaps a “sea serpent”?


This pottery piece has been categorized as Neeley’s Ferry which are artifacts of one of the ancient group of State of Arkansas cultures. Ancient peoples are thought to have lived in Arkansas between 600 B.C. and 1600 A.D.

The Peabody specifically dated the artifact between 1350 and 1550.

This piece is further described as an earthen bowl, animal. The animal has a head with teeth giving the appearance of either a sea creature with long winding tail or perhaps a dinosaur.


Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21621
Display Title: Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl head and tail start on body & on short axis
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic, complete vessel, bowl, mended, serpent head and tail
Object Description: Earthen bowl, animal. Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl, head and tail start on body, tail turned on itself, head and tail on short axis.
Classification: Bowl
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Halcomb’s Mounds; Arkansas State Intrasite: Grave, 18 inches deep; 2 feet from river

Above shows our “sea monster” at another angle which provides additional detail concerning the shape of the head and tail. By the way, seals have fins and flippers not “tails”.

This final piece is also from the Neeley’s Ferry mounds and is described as a “ceramic effigy vessel of zoomorphic design”.


This artifact was found in a gravesite buried three feet below ground level and has been dated from the period between 1350-1550.

As you can see it is very reminiscent of modern paleoartist’s depiction of theropod or meat eating dinosaurs. Of course, we only have the head but is it possible that the artist saw and knew about a then living version of such a creature?

Or is it more believable that this is an effigy of a mythological animal which accidently reminds us of modern ideas about how dinosaurs looked?

Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21195
Display Title: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomorphic design
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomophic design
Classification: Effigy
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience:North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Neeley’s Ferry Mounds; Arkansas State # 3CS24
Intrasite: Grave, 3 feet deep Geo-Locale: Saint Francis River, West side of
Materials: Ceramic
Collector: Edwin Curtiss (01/01/1880)

           

Bonus: Nicoya, Pre Columbian Incense Burner Maker Tops Reptilian Artifact with Feet of a Theropod Dinosaur Which is Quite A Feat for Someone Who Missed Dinosaurs by 65M Years



Top left is a pre Columbian Censer (Incensario), from the 10th–12th century. There are many examples of this type of pre Columbian censer topped by a dragon/dinosaur. The excellent example at the top left is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you take the time you can see the full body of a quadruped, dinosaur like creature with an extremely ornate crest or horns. This is typical of these artifacts.

No matter how un crocodile like the animal perched at the top is this type of vessel is known as either alligator or crocodile ware and elaborate stories have been concocted by archaeologists about the sacred nature of crocodiles and alligators in the pre Columbian cultures. Here’s a quote describing the object, top left by the Met.

The flare-footed, spherical bowl of this ceramic censer is enhanced, in silhouette, by the flamboyance of its chimney. Textured, appliqué bands encircle and emphasize the tall smoothness of the chimney. On the perforated cap rests an elaborate crested crocodilian. Smoke from the incense that was burned in the bowl escaped through the holes of the cap and from openings in the animal’s body. The rhythmical texture of the appliqué visually unites it with the surface of the creature’s body where the nubby portions are taken to represent the scutes of the reptile.

Both textured appliqués and scutes are surfaced in white. The spiky crest that surrounds the head is customarily found in incensarios of this period. Crocodilians frequently appear in Costa Rican art, strongly suggesting the supernatural import of these creatures in ancient times…The Met

On the Top right is a photo of one of those pre Columbian artifacts, Nicoya, an incense burner.
what is interesting about the artifact on the top, right is that a close up of the animals feet (bottom left) reveal and striking similarity of its feet as sculpted to that of the theropod dinsoaurs (bottom, right) and unlike those of lizards-or crocodiles.

           

Conclusion: There are hundreds if not thousands of artifacts in museums around the world containing representations of extinct creatures that we now called dinosaurs. The most obvious examples are labeled as fakes and are in provide collections.

Those that are not obvious dinosaurs are labeled dragons, unknown, zoomorphic, mythological, animal etc. Of course many artifacts are just those things. The issue is that when a group (archaeologists) are absolutely convinced that these animals lived millions of years ago all evidence will be viewed to reflect that belief and those that don’t will be reinterpreted, labeled or hidden away.

In any case if you should find that even one of the items in our collection is a dinosaur-or that a dinosaur is the most likely explanation that one should be enough to make you question the current scientific history control. But we understand that bucking the system is difficult to do.

Since I began with a quote from the Princess Bride it might be appropriate to finish with a modified version of another such quote:

Big Science: We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. (not actually a believer)
Believer: You mean, you’ll put down your rock and I’ll put down my sword, and we’ll try to convince each other like civilized people-with facts and evidence?
Big Science; [brandishing rock (public opinion, science mythology, ridicule] I could just wipe you out now.
Believer: Frankly, I think the odds are slightly in your favor at hand fighting.
Big Science: It’s not my fault being the biggest and the strongest. I don’t even exercise.

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2- Exit the Dragon; Enter the Dinosaur. Why Dinosaurs are Not Extinct-In Ancient Art Museums Around the World

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 09 2012


Story Below–Photo: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum-

“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

by Chris Parker Copyright July 2012 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Part II Prologue

Return to PART I
Jump Ahead to Part 3

“One thing on which both creationists and evolutionists agree is that dinosaurs make marvelous teaching tools. Rare is the adult—and even more rare is the child—who does not have a keen interest in dinosaurs.

These magnificent beasts with the polysyllabic names capture our attention as we fixate on their massive size, their lizard-like skin, or the terror they were apparently able to create as they roamed the Earth. From kindergarten through graduate school, dinosaurs often are used as a tool to indoctrinate students regarding the “fact” of organic evolution.

In most public school, college, and university settings, when dinosaurs are discussed, it is in the context of their evolutionary origin, development, and extinction. Students are told that these wondrous animals evolved from some ancient reptile into what we now know as birds. In such a setting, it is commonplace to use the dinosaurs to instruct simultaneously on the ancient nature of the Earth and/or Universe.” ..www.apologeticspress.org/

Christians and other man/dinosaur believers often haven’t organized their pro dinosaur and man beliefs, explanations and/or theories in such a way as to affirmatively deal with the current scientific paradigm’s onslaught. There is an impressive amount of intellectual firepower directed against anyone who would believe in the historical coexistence of man and dragon/dinosaur. So much so that going up against it is a true David vs Goliath struggle.

There is however, ample evidence in the art and history of ancient civilizations that support the truth which most people are ignorant of. It’s helpful to remember that David won his struggle and Goliath lost his head.

Enter the Dinosaur

Last month, (June 2012) a study whose results were published in the journal Nature suggests that despite long held scientific belief to the contrary, dinosaurs were warm blooded. “Researchers in Spain and Norway reported that they had found tree-like growth rings on the bones of mammals, a feature that until now was thought to be limited to cold-blooded creatures”.

They also found that dinosaurs must have had a high metabolic rate in order to grow to their sometimes great size. Dinosaurs are thought to be reptiles and; reptiles by definition are cold-blooded.

In the July 2010 issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology John Scannella and Jack Horner of the Museum of the Rockies published a study that did away with Triceratops, Draconex, Stygimoloch, and nanotyrannus, describing them as simply juvenile versions of Torosaurus, Pachycephalosaurs and tyrannosaurus whose skulls have simply changed as they aged.

As we mentioned in Part 1 of this article, a June 2009 article in LiveScience indicated that scientists had overestimated the weight and size of dinosaurs by as much as 1/2 to 1/3. As an example an Apatosaurus previously thought to weigh 42 tons is now thought to have weighed “only” 20 tons.

A Discover Magazine article in 2000 confirms that much of what we think dinosaurs looked like is pure speculation on the part of illustrators and paleontologists. No one is really sure what they looked like.

Guess what? If you don’t know anything about dinosaurs you’re practically an expert. This lack of real knowledge about dinosaurs is important as we evaluate the evidence for or against dinosaur depictions in the art of ancient peoples.

Exit the Dragon

Photo: Darwin Hunts Dinosaur from the Time of Christ-to the Death? Palestrina Mosaic Dinosaur

As a self described cryptozooarchaeologist, I have to admit that I am not out standing in my field. In fact, the evidence I search for is not out in the fields. Rather it is in old books, museum collections, libraries and in internet museum databases. I’ll continue to provide some evidence here in Part 2 of this article that; dinosaurs and man lived contemporaneously, that this evidence exists in the art and history of most ancient cultures, and that modern science has hidden or ignored this evidence in a number of both overt and covert ways.

Prior to 1841 when Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosauria” to describe a class of gigantic, reptile-like animals whose fossils were then being discovered and classified every culture had a name for these animals. The Bible and other historical texts and authors called them dragons (or their own local words). When Darwin published the “Origin of the Species” in 1859 he of course had no idea that the actual or virtual extinction of these animals would be used as one of the major standard bearers of the organic evolution theory.

However, the art and artifacts of ancient people proves that as late as the publication of his book other cultures were still recording evidence of the existence of these animals in their times. The accompanying graphic shows Darwin hunting a dinosaur that must have existed at the time of Christ; a dinosaur lifted from the 1st century Roman Mosaic known as the Palestrina Mosaic.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part II

PART 1 of THIS ARTICLE

If one looks at the art and artifacts particularly from China and from South America, their artifacts and arts are literally permeated with depictions of “dragons” and serpents. This is true of other ancient cultures but it is especially noteworthy in these two geo cultural locations. In Part 1 we dealt mostly with dragons/dinosaurs from Asia. I want to transition from Asia to the Americas in Part II of this article but it is appropriate to begin in Asia. Here are three (out of many) dragon depictions from Asia that in fact possibly depict dinosaurs.

Ancient Chinese Bipedal Dragon from the Shanghai Museum

In October of 2010 the Museo del Oro del Banco de la Republica in Bogata, Columbia held a temporary exhibition of Chinese art from the Shanghai Museum entitled: Emperial Dragons from the Collection of the Shanghai Museum”. The exhibition contained 300 works of art related to dragon imagery representing a period it was said of over 5,000 years.

The painting at the top of this article and reproduced here was a part of that collection. The description of the work is: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.”

It is a beautiful piece that features a perhaps “typical” Chinese dragon, a landscape and some men described as “holy”. There are however, several very interesting things about this particular dragon. For one thing, it appears to be bipedal. Now how or why would the Chinese depict a mythical dragon as bipedal? There were in fact many bipedal dinosaurs but science tells us that they all became extinct more than 65 million years ago.

At the very least it’s a big coincidence that artists living three to four thousand years ago would conceive of a four legged, bipedal dragon without ever having seen a four legged, bipedal dinosaur.

Another curious thing about this “dragon” is that the artist for some reason has made it quite clear that this dragon has three clawed “hands” as well as three clawed feet. I have a high resolution version of this piece of art and the claws are distinctive. The final thing of note is that this dragon has a head crest.

I made the point in Part 1 that it is curious that virtually every ancient culture depicted dragons; reptilian, dangerous, large creatures which arguably also fits the description of dinosaurs that they supposedly never saw. I wondered if a crested, bipedal, dinosaur fossil had ever been discovered in China, so I Googled it. I went to images. Google Dinosaur Images

Literally, the first dinosaur that appeared on Google with that description was the Guanlong dinosaur.

This is how Wikipedia described that supposedly millions of years gone dinosaur:


“About 3.0 metres (9.8 ft) long,[1] its fossils were found in the Shishugou Formation dating to about 160 million years ago, in the Oxfordian stage of the Late Jurassic period, 92 million years before its well-known relative Tyrannosaurus.

This bipedal saurischian theropod shared many traits with its descendants, and also had some unusual ones, like a large crest on its head. Unlike later tyrannosaurs, Guanlong had three long fingers on its hands. Guanlong was discovered in the Dzungaria area of China by scientists from George Washington University, and named by Xu Xing in 2006. Guanlong comes from the Chinese words for “crown” and “dragon”, referring to the crest.” Wikipedia

In the graphic above are comparisons of Guanlong with our Han Dynasty “dragon depictions”. Turns out that in addition to being bipedal like our dragon, it had a headcrest and as it turns out, three fingers and three toes just like our dragon. Does this prove that the Han Dynasty depiction is of the Guanlong dinosaur? Not necessarily, but for those who believe that man and dinosaurs lived together this is exactly what one would expect.

It would be difficult for naysayers to explain why a dragon was depicted with morphological features exactly like that of an actual dinosaur who lived it that same geographical area-but science isn’t explaining, it is ignoring.

 

Neolithic Culture Cultural Jade

The object description: “These Photo Galleries were developed from our private collection acquired and privately kept in Hong Kong since 1979. They were uncovered from Neolithic ruins and found their way to the Hong Kong open market since the mainland economy began to open its doors to traders.


These Neolithic Cultural Jades differ from the traditionally collected “burial jades” from the traditional archeological burial sites of Hongshan and Liangchu, discovered in the 1920s and 1930s. Source


Here it is shown in comparison to Yangchuanosaurus. “Yangchuanosaurus is an extinct genus of metriacanthosaurid theropod dinosaur that lived in China during the late Oxfordian (and possibly Kimmeridgian) stage of the Late Jurassic, and was similar in size and appearance to its North American contemporary, Allosaurus.

It hails from the Upper Shaximiao Formation and was the largest predator in a landscape which included the sauropods Mamenchisaurus and Omeisaurus as well as the Stegosaurs Chialingosaurus, Tuojiangosaurus and Chungkingosaurus”…Wikipedia

 

A Pair of Western Han Dynasty Beaulieu Screens Copper Bracket

Descripton of the Artifact:

“Western Han Dynasty. Object is 33.5 cm high and 27.3cm long. The screens on both sides of the barrier under the bracket, the original gilt. Squat in the care seat Broom, proudly curved body Onchocerca, four feet on the synthesis by the two snakes structure on a bearing.

Volumes of the two snakes wrapped around a frog. Frog mouth violent head, trying to break free like. Longkou large sheet of mouth, a rim of the forelegs gripped Long, head stretched forward, as if to escape the invasion of the evil snake get the protection of the Dragon, serene state.


Dragon, snake, frog combination of the three together, is a highly plastic arts, the beauty of antiques. The snake, the frog was a totem of the ancient Yue people, the dragon is one of the four gods worshiped by the Central Plains, the snake wrapped around the frog, dragon stood on the snake to protect the frog tells the story of a legendary totem myths. Now in the possession: Guangzhou Xi Hannan Yue Museum.”


Keeping in mind the Prologue in which we mentioned that the size of many dinosaurs had been exaggerated shouldn’t a fair minded observer consider that this dragon is in fact a depiction of a living Chinese dinosaur during the Han Dynasty period? (206 B.C.–220 A.D.)

Here the Han Dynasty object is compared with Plateosaurus, Dinosaurs related to Plateosaurus have been found in South Africa, North America, and China. Note that Plateosaurus is not depicted with ears. Many ancient culture depictions of these creatures do show them with external ears. Modern science has drawn them as reptiles who often do not have external earflaps. However, as we noted in the Prologue, dinosaurs were probably warm-blooded and possibly not reptiles at all.

 

Dinosaur Depictions at the World’s Oldest Cities

If the Christian/creationist view concerning dinosaurs is correct, then dinosaurs were created by God less than 10,000 years ago and were contemporaneous with man from the beginning. If the evolutionary/current science paradigm is correct and dinosaurs became extinct 65,000,000 years ago, then no evidence of interaction between them should exist and the ubiquitous dragon of many ancient cultures is a mythological, unrelated phenomena.

Golbeki. “Now considered by some to be the oldest civilization in the world is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. “Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known man-made religious structure. The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site.

The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of manpower and labor……


Many of the pillars are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithic cave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.

…..Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic”. ….Wikipedia

Wikipedia notes that there were reliefs of “snakes and other reptiles” at Göbekli Tepe. Here are some of the raised reliefs that might indicate that there were “dinosaurs” at one of the oldest archaeological sites ever found.

Tiahuanico. But some say that mysterious Tiahuanico a seaport 2.5 miles above sea level high in the Andes mountains is the world’s oldest city.

“The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable. There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships.”


According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months. Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them.

Again, creationists might expect to discover some evidence that man had some interaction with dragons now called dinosaurs in ancient time and location. Of course, science would expect no such thing.

This ancient animal depiction is from Tihuanaco and is now housed at the National Archaeological Museum of Bolivia. Here is the official description:


A.D. 200-A.D. 1000
Gold Tiwanaku zoomorphic figurines

These dinosaurs appear to be quadruped carnivore’s although today we think of most carnivorous dinosaurs as having been bi-pedal. Some scientists have speculated that certain prosauropods were either carnivores or omnivores. In any case, here apparently is the view of an eyewitness.

 

The Pivot to South America

In 1973 the late Dr. Hendon Harris Jr. Wrote a book entitled ‘The Asiatic Fathers of America” that theorized based on certain ancient Chinese maps that seafaring Chinese reached the Americas repeatedly beginning around 2,200 B.C., and that those ancient Chinese were the ancestors of the “American Indians”.

“His proof centered on a world map he found in an old map book a year earlier in an antique shop in Korea.



Entitled “Everything under Heaven,” the ancient Chinese map not only showed known major land masses such as Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe, but located China’s fabled Fu Sang—literally “land to the east”—in the region we now know as North and South America”. Epoch Times…

This Colima Culture dragon reminds some of the Naga and other ancient Chinese dragon depictions (Below, right).


Other author’s and Academics have pointed to other evidence of the Ancient Chinese in the Americas including speculation that the ancient, Pre Hispanic and advanced Olmec culture was founded by the Chinese.

One thing is certain, both cultures in the form of their arts certainly showed a strong cultural interest in dragons/slash dinosaurs.


Acambaro Figurines. In 1944 Waldemar Julsrud, a hardware salesman spotted some curious ceramics sticking out of the ground near Acambaro, Mexico on El Toro Mountain.

After examining them, he concluded that they were from an unknown culture. Back in 1923 Julsrud had been the co-discoverer along with Padre Fray Jose Marie Martinez of what came to be known as the Chupicauro culture at an archaeological site only eight miles from El Toro. His discovery of the Chupicauro culture and artifacts which scientists came to believe flourished from 500 B.C. to 500A.D. still stands.

Julsrud paid a local farmer a peso a piece for any whole artifacts that were found at this new location near Acambaro and eventually amassed a collection of over 20,000 unique artifacts which included dinosaurs, Asians, Africans, bearded Caucasians, Polynesians, Egyptian and Sumerian objects and many others. The non-dinosaurian objects in the collection some called the “Museum that seared scientists” were virtually as offensive to the current scientific paradigm as were the dinosaurs. Science has reacted to the collection with a combination of intense indifference or a determination to lable them as fakes- from afar.

Ica Stones In 1966, Peruvian physician Javier Cabrera Darquea was prompted to begin collecting strange stones found near Ica, Peru which his father had also collected back in the 1930’s. These stones of various sizes showed man and dinosaurs interacting but also, telescopes, heart surgery, constellations and many other seemingly out of place and time depictions. Cabrera amassed a collection of over 11,000 of these stones. Like the Acambaro figurines, they also came to be labeled fakes.

Photo:Etching from one of the Ica Stones.

Here we potentially have two of the greatest archeaological discoveries of all time being quickly labeled fakes and then ignored by science in the years since. I personally don’t accept the pronouncement. One thing about faking artifacts; it would only be profitable if they are sold to someone.

Here are three reasons why they are unlikely to be fakes; 1)There are 20,000 unsold Acambaro figurines and over 11,000 Ica Stones. Not a very shrewd way to fake a living is it? 2)There are morphological characteristics on certain of the dinosaurs which were not discovered until many years after the stones were discovered. For instance, at the time of the discovery, Sauropods were not depicted with dermal spines. Stephen Czerkas discovery of dermal spines on sauropods in 1992 gave them a “new look” which had already been depicted on ancient artifacts. 3)The surest way not to sell a faked pre Columbian ancient artifact is to place a dinosaur or an Egyptian on it..

Dr. Requena’s Dinosaurs


Prior to the 1944 and 1966 discoveries of the Acambaro and Ica artifacts, respectively, an actual scientist, an anthropologist named Dr. Rafael Requena who was then affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela, discovered his own dinosaur and man artifacts.

I have a signed copy of his book (not to me) detailing the discovery of out of place artifacts at Lago Valencia in Venenzuela and of a new undiscovered ancient civilization there entitled; “Vestigios of Atlantida” (Remnants of Atlantis), published in 1932. I see that used copies of this book are still available for approximately $350.00.

According to the book and news reports about the discoveries, Requena claimed that Venezuela was the cradle of man’s civilization and that the ancient culture interacted with “prehistoric animals”. Among the prehistoric animals named as having been associated with this ancient culture was the diplodocus.

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.


Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…” New York Times June 5, 1932.

Dr. Requena’s discoveries were not declared fakes and his career was not ruined. Both the Ica Stones and the Acambaro figures suffered in the eyes of science because they had not been discovered by scientists-or so the said. The links that Requena made with Atlantis may seem crackpot to some today but were not viewed quite that way back in 1932.


Many of the artifacts of the ancient civilization he discovered can still be found on the internet. However, the dinosaurs have simply disappeared.

We do have his book and an opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not this ancient civilization did in fact interact with dinosaurs.

I do note that even Requena approached the dinosaur angle of his discoveries with some caution. One would think that a discovery of dinosaur art among the remnants of this ancient civilization would have been the absolute focus of the discovery and that there would have been copious photographs of the “prehistoric animals” from every available angle.


Photo:Requena’s suaropod dinosaur from his 1932 book compared to a modern brachiosaurus model.

This was not the case; we do not have close-ups or multiple angles even though it appears that Requena was absolutely convinced that the depictions of dinosaurs were authentic. In fact, the dinosaurs are what convinced Requena that the ancient Venezuelans had to be a very ancient, advanced culture.

The photo above left shows that Requena’s sauropod compares favorably to a modern dinosaur model depicting a brachiosaurus.

Unfortunately, this is the only photographic angle shown in Requena’s book and in magazine articles announcing his discoveries. Clearly the ancient depiction is stylized to some extent. The artifact labeled number 40 in Requena’s book clearly it seems to me depicts a type of armored dinosaur like ankylosaur.


Ankylosauria are a group of herbivorous dinosaurs of the order Ornithischia. It includes the great majority of dinosaurs with armor in the form of bony osteoderms. Ankylosaurs were bulky quadrupeds, with short, powerful limbs. They are first known to have appeared in the early Jurassic Period of China, and persisted until the end of the Cretaceous Period. They have been found on every continent except Africa. …Wikipedia

These creatures supposedly became extinct at least 65 million years ago. The non-club tailed versions are known as nodosaurs although none of those have been reported to be found in South America.


On page 75 of the book Vestigios de la Atlantida are photographs of two “vases” which depict several animal figures. One of those figures is shown on the right. What quadruped has a neck frill like the one shown to the right? In our view, only a ceratopsian dinosaur would have this profile. Unfortunately, this is the only view and resolution that we have.

The case for a ceratopsian dinosaur is bolstered we believe by the fact that Requena says that prehistoric creatures were part of the experience of the Lago Valencia civilization.

There are certainly many types of ceratopsian dinosaurs and many different frill shapes. Shown here (above right) are several modern ceratopsian depictions from as close to the same angle as possible. Ceratopsian dinosaurs have not been found in South America (except for notoceratops) and they also are thought by science to have become extinct over 65 million years ago.


I’m calling the creature shown to the left the baby ceratops. It has a unique skull shape which doesn’t appear to comport with any known animal and along with its visible appendages make a ceratopsian dinosaur a possibility.

Ceratops does mean “horned face” after all. I’m not going to make a federal case out of this ID given the one angle, low relatively low resolution photo but provide a comparison photo for the reader’s amusement.

Metropolitan Museum of Art Horned Dinosaur with Front and Back Detail


Double-Chambered Whistling Bottle, 4th-7th century Ecuador; Bahia, Ceramic

This time we have a detailed, color photo showing the front and back of these creatures in detail. The curator has fallen back on the canard that these are simply lizards or are mythological creatures.

These creatures are tied by the use of ropes to sticks giving them the man dinosaur/interaction prize amont the dinosaurs we have reviewed for this article. Does one tie a mythological creature to a stick? From the Met’s decription:

“Double-chambered bottles were a common vessel form among the Bahia people of coastal Ecuador. The chambers, which were round and squat or tall and slender, as here, were joined at the bottom by a tube and at the top by a strap handle.


A single, narrow spout tops one of the chambers, while the other vessel serves as a base for modeled figurative sculptures.

On this bottle, two fantastic iguana-like creatures sit side by side at the top, their thick, long tails hanging down the side of the container. The iguanas wear necklaces and head crests; long streamers emerge from their open, fanged mouths; their bodies have dorsal crests and winglike elements projecting on the sides. The dull, bumpy surface of the animals, covered with light green pigment, contrasts with the smooth, burnished finish of the red-slipped chambers.

The hollow iguanas function as whistles, their several holes producing a sound when the liquid in the bottle is poured out. Iguanas or dragonlike creatures and serpents are frequent motifs in Bahia art and seem to have played an important role in local mythology.” …..Met Museum


I believe that these animals are related to ceratopsian dinosaurs as well. They have small neck frills and “nose bumps” similar to that of Leptoceratops or Cerasinops or other ceratopsian dinosaurs.

Note that what appears to be a single, horn projecting from their heads is revealed from the backside to be part of their headcrests or neck frills. Also note the armor over the lower body segment.

Sometimes ceratopsian dinosaurs are portrayed with this body split as has been done with the Lepto and the Cerasinops depictions above.


Leptoceratops is from North America.

A creature like Bradysaurus shown to the right with another version of Leptoceratops is another possibility. Bradysaurus is from South Africa. However, it was a pareiasaur which have been discovered on the continent. These are offered as examples of broad dinosaur types that compare favorably to the creatures depicted by the Ecuadorians.

 

Ancient South American Dinosaur Sacrifices?

Lambayeque Culture Toxodon Sacrafice? According to the Gardiner Museum:

“this is an exquisite example of a double-chambered figural bridge-spout whistling bottle of the Lambayeque Culture. It’s a moulded whistling vessel, the front is a square section and is surmounted by an animal , possibly being marked by two attendants, the back body is moulded in the form of a shell with –as you can see a tall tapering spout and a wide strap handle.

The whole item is painted in black, cream and reddish-brown, with areas of scroll, circular and geometric patterns. It’s from the Middle Horizon period, AD 100-300, of the Lambayeque culture of Peru.”

I think that it is entirely possible that this scene instead depicts “priests” readying a toxodon for sacrifice. Toxodons were among the most prolific types of fossils found in South America and supposedly lived down to 16,500 years ago. Coincidentally, Charles Darwin was among the first to collect fossils of this large animal.

From Wikipedia: “Toxodon is an extinct mammal of the late Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs about 2.6 million to 16,500 years ago. It was indigenous to South America, and was probably the most common large-hoofed mammal in South America at the time of its existence.

Toxodon was about 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) in body length, with an estimated weight up to 1500 kg and about 1.5 metres (4.9 ft) high at the shoulder and resembled a heavy rhinoceros, with a short and vaguely hippopotamus-like head.”

I think that this animal is the right size and has the beaked mouth and other features that make toxodon a possible identification for the creature being depicted here. It seems unlikely that this kind of detail and this kind of ritual would be depicted for only a mythological creature. Whatever this cretaure is it is likely a real creature it seems to me.

Chimu Culture Dinosaur Sacrifice? On the left is a Chimu Culture ceramic artifact from between 1100 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The source is the emuseum.mankato.

From: emuseum.mankato “The Chimu civilization lasted from 1100 AD to the late 1400′s AD. The Chimu state was characterized by conquest and expansion periods of the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. At one time, the Chimu empire encompassed 620 square miles. Minchancamon was the greediest and coincidentally the last leader of the Chimu state.

His quest for dominance, built on by his predecessors, resulted in the conquest of the Sican state to the north. In their quest for expansion, the Chimu encountered the Inca to the south.

The Chimu conflict with the Inca began in 1462, and the Inca eventually prevailed. The Inca conquered the Chimu state in 1475 – 1476.

Paleontologists say that man and dinosaurs missed each other by more than 65 million years. For this reason, they cannot accept that any art showing man interacting with a dinosaur is genuine.

If the piece is believed to be genuine, then it follows that whatever is being represented is not a dinosaur-no matter how apparent the resemblance.

Conversely, creationists, or more specifically, we here at s8int.com do believe that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the recent past and that therefore, ancient art will be found which proves that this interaction took place.

For this reason, we are liable to see a “dinosaur” when in fact the animal is actually something less mysterious. We all have to deal with our biases.

I believe that it is reasonable to assert that this Chimu piece shows a man with a rope or a cloth tied around the neck of a juvenile dinosaur, which is either a pet or which is being prepared for sacrifice. We’ve identified the type of dinosaur as possibly a Maiasaura or an Iquanodon, two related dinosaurs. As usual, everyone is encouraged to make up his/her own mind.

 

Conclusion

The truth is; dinosaurs were created at the same time as all other living creatures. They were called dragons in scripture and were so known in most ancient cultures prior to the time that the huge creatures were given the name dinosauria around 1841 and the name dragon was driven by science into the mythological realm.

The ancient art in museums tell a different story however and that information is no longer available only to academics who may be beholden to the current paradigm or who certainly don’t want to go up against it.

At the current time, perhaps the dragon is still crouching and the dinosaur in modern times, still hidden, however, the truth will come out. As the Bible says;

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”….Luke 8

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

See Also:

Denial Is not Just a River in Egypt; Suppressed Human and Dinosaur Interactions in Nilotic Art

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries

When Really Giant Humans Left Their Imprints on the World

Human and Dinosaur Inner Actions-When Witnesses Got Eaten

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”

Denial Is Not Just A River In Egypt: Suppressed Evidence of Human, Dinosaur and Other “Extinct” Fauna Interaction in First Century Roman, Nilotic Art

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Mar 24 2012


By Chris Parker (Repost from s8int.com)

PART 1

PART II


Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I was reminded of that little witticism this weekend. I left the downtown branch of the public library with a plan to stop by Raul’s for a super burrito, a burrito so large that Ive actually had to take a nap right there under one of Raul’s tables after polishing one off.

I was shocked to discover that Raul’s was no longer there. It had been replaced by a new sushi place.

Raul’s place had replaced a deli restaurant, which had in its turn replaced a pizza shop. I recall that some time ago it had been some kind of smoothie/coffee shop.

Only denial could explain why each new owner believed that his restaurant would succeed where all the others had failed-and why a bank would keep making loans at the location.

“Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.”(free Dictionary) Denial is the Lingua Franca of the human race and the state of denial is larger than the State of California.

When it comes to the issue of dinosaur and human co-existence, denial is also of course in operation. On the Christian side, some but not all have chosen to deny that dinosaurs even existed for fear that there existence might somehow discredit the Bible.

Materialists, rationalists, and/or Atheists similarly seek to discredit any evidence that proves or might tend to support the fact that dinosaurs and humans coexisted for fear that such proof might discredit evolutionary theory.

Palestrina Mosaic. CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION NILE MOSAIC IMAGE

In this article s8int.com will once again, (as weve tried to do on more than 50 pages of this section), provide visual evidence that dinosaurs and humans did in fact coexist; this time in the art of the 1st century. In this article we will seek to show that not just dinosaurs but that other fauna said by science to have become extinct millions of years ago were still living up to at least the time of the 1st century A.D.

I was in the library this week poring over literally thousands of pages of early Roman art, including the art of 1st century Pompeii. I spent this time in the library after spending weeks trying to find more copies and higher resolution photos of the pieces being presented here online.

If and when I did find them, in the great majority of cases the representations of the art had been cropped so that the offending details had been eliminated. Other companion works were often shown in their entirety and often in higher resolution, but these were not.

Although these art masterpieces should be easy to find, they are not.

As you look at the evidence s8int.com presents here, remember that the keepers of the evolutionary paradigm did everything overtly or subtlety possible to keep us from seeing them. That might tend to lend them additional credibility as evidence supporting interaction since there would be no need to surpress or deny information which does not threaten the paradigm.

The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina and the hunting mosaic from the House of the Physician are incredible works that should be well known to the public in their entirety, but if in fact they were well known, they would be very controversial with respect to the evolutionary timeline.

What we really wonder about is; with respect to the powers that be who conspire to keep this information out of the public eye, do they themselves manage to maintain the belief that dinosaurs and man never coexistedor is it just the great unwashed true believers out there who have the pure religion? Is the power of denial really that strong?

What we do know is that whatever we do stumble upon here at s8int.com or whatever anyone else discovers is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

The Nile is the longest river in the world, stretching northwards for approximately 4,000 miles from East Africa to the Mediterranean. In addition to Egypt, it flows through the African countries of Sudan, Burundi, Rwanda, DR Congo, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, and Ethiopia,. Nilotic art like the first century Nile Mosaic of Palestrina detailed life along the Nile.

“The vast Nilotic mosaic (21.3 x 17.3 feet) set into the floor of the apsidal hall adjacent to the sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia at Praeneste (Palestrina) provides important evidence for what Roman triumphal paintings using topographical conventions may have looked like.

On the mosaic, the Nile winds past vignettes representing exotic landscapes and settlements; the more recondite details are carefully labeled in Greek, underscoring the Alexandrian source of the genre. The precise nature of the relationship between the mosaic and cartographic practices is controversial.

Recently the Palestrina mosaic has been interpreted as an actual topographic map of the Nile: the upper part of the mosaic represents Ethiopia, the upper zone of the lower section represents Egypt, and the foreground represents the Delta, top to bottom understood as south to north, the standard convention for ancient maps.

More likely, however, the mosaic provides a large, coherent landscape composition of the Nile during the flood season, nevertheless dependent on topographical conventions”.( Meyboom )

Dinosaur Art From the House of the Physician-Mid First Century A.D.

“Pompeii is a ruined Roman city near modern Naples in the Italian region of Campania, in the territory of the commune of Pompei. It was destroyed during a catastrophic eruption of the volcano Mount Vesuvius on 24 August 79 AD.

The volcano buried the city under many metres of ash and it was lost for 1,600 years before its accidental rediscovery in 1748. Since then, its excavation has provided an extraordinarily detailed insight into the life of a city at the height of the Roman Empire”……Wikipedia

IMAGES: Both of the images on the left are from the “Hunt” mosaic discovered in the House of the physician in Pompeii, Rome.

When the images are discussed, it is within academia, not with the general public.

The apology given for the oversized reptiles is that they are simply nile crocodiles. This is not the case. As we will show, the crocodiles on these Nile works were rendered realistically and accurately as shown in this rendering from the Nile Mosaic on the right.

Note that in the image on the left, and in the complete mural below a man is battling a reptile taller than himself with a shield and a spear. Compare the man, the dinosaur and the building at the center of the image.

The creature on the right has a dermal ridge, unlike a crocodile but exactly like certain dinosaur types which might be safer to sit astride as we will explore below.

Hunt mosaic..

CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION MOSAIC IMAGE

Low stature, armored dinosaur comparison.
.

There are many armored dinosaur types that fit this reptile portrayal at least as well as the crocodile. Most of them had “low slung” bodies with heights of six feet high or less. One can make up his/her own mind but the hunter astride the reptile is between “plates” on its bck. In addition to the examples shown here, other candidates can be seen by following this link.

Another denial tactic is to label the dark skinned peoples in these mosaics as pygmies (to account for reptile towering over native). However, authorities on Roman art note that its not just blacks who are made dimunitve in Roman art but that it was a way of making the Romans seem superior.

African-Roman hercules

African-Roman Hero, Hercules. Fresco, Imperial Roman Pompeii.

Title: Hercules stands beside the enthroned Lydian Queen Omphale

Not only blacks were diminutive in the pieces, white or light skinned persons were dwarfed as well. As a matter of fact, Snowden, in his book “Before Color Prejudice” makes note of the eligaritan nature of the Roman civilization, and apparent lack of color discrimination, using examples from ancient Roman Art; many works showing scenes involving both dark skinned and light skinned citizens.

With respect to the three pieces found at the House of the Physician, all portray light skinned and dark skinned dwarves.

This includes “Judgment of Solomon”, (NOT SHOWN) which depicts the Jews as dwarfed and as both dark skinned and light skinned peoples.

The work below is also first century, from the House of the Physician at Pompeii.

Dinosaur Depiction on Roman Mosaic at Sepphoris?

From the Top of the Page: Detail from floor mosaic discovered at Sepphoris. This is a nilotic scene incorporated into the Dionysos Mosaic.

The mosaic is dated between the first and third centuries. A great earthquake destroyed Sepphoris in 363 A.D.

Note that here warriors/hunters battle the “large reptile” using shields and large rocks.

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs-How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 13 2011


“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

By Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a fictional character and one of the primary protagonists in the Star Wars movie series. Portrayed by Alec Guinness in the original trilogy, he was one of the most memorable. In the world of the Star Wars films, Kenobi had a particular skill that he used to great effect known now as “conversational hypnosis”. He was able to convince his antagonists by speaking in a specific tone of voice to alter their intended courses of action or for example, to see something that wasn’t in fact there.

Someone or something with even greater abilities is at work here in the real world. When it comes to modern science’s ability to utilize that same skill in convincing the world that dinosaurs and man never interacted, I’m afraid that Obi-Wan Kenobi comes off as a Wookiee;/rookie. Of course, in the movie Obi-Wan had the virtue of not being on the “dark” side. Not true of modern science.

Citizen: ”Science, Shouldn’t I look into the dinosaur/ancient dragon connection more closely?”
Evolutionary Science: [with a small wave of its hand]’ You don’t need to look into the dinosaur question more closely”.
Citizen: ” We don’t need to look more closely.”
Evolutionary Science: [calmly, smoothly, head moving side to side; indicating no..] These aren’t the dinosaurs you’re looking for.
Citizen: [trancelike] “These aren’t the dinosaurs I’m looking for.”
Evolutionary Science: You can go about your business.
Citizen: “ I can go about my business”.
Evolutionary Science:” Move along”.
Citizen: “ Moving along, moving along.”

It’s a bit ironic how easily even evolutionists accept portrayals of man and dinosaur together in cartoons, television programs and movies. However, we have all been trained regarding when it is acceptable to see these interactions and when it is not. Dinosaurs in cartoons; yes-dinosaurs in ancient art museums, no!

(I know that this particular one isn’t funny, but how about; “When this game evolves we’ll be using pigskin instead of dinosaur skin, but they won’t be here ‘til the Olicene”?)

Click on the cartoon above for the rest of this story. The point; dinosaurs and dragons; change the context change the dragon.

 

Photo Right:Top-Rhamphorynchus fossil at the British Nuseum, 1922. Bottom- Aurora Defeating the Dragon, Aurora Consurgens, Published 1420.

When the British Museum put the fossil remains of Rhamphorynchus on display in 1922, it was labeled “Pterodactyl or Extinct Flying Dragon”, drawing a direct line from the pterosaur of modern science to the historic tales of dragons, flying and otherwise that had pervaded the written and artistic history of virtually every ancient culture.

A photograph of that 1922 exhibit is shown here along with a drawing from the 1420 Book Aurora Consurgens (Aurora Defeating the Dragon). This 1420 book depicts a version of the British Museum pterosaur some 350 years prior to their scientific discovery by Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini thought that they were seagoing creatures.

It’s true that pterosaurs are not considered to be dinosaurs but ancient cultures considered them all (dinosaurs, marine reptiles and pterosaurs) as either dragons or flying dragons. So what happened? How did the clear reference made by the British Museum of the obvious link between, giant, dangerous, reptilian, land, air and sea monsters with the modern discovery of giant, dangerous, reptilian, land air and sea monsters that we call dinosaurs get severed? These dragons are not the dinosaurs you seek!

Let’s start with why before we consider how. Even prior to Darwin many people had become skeptical about such things as the Biblical chronology of the earth and biblical history. For many dragons were considered mythological and a reason to doubt the Bible’s veracity. In this same period, the theories of the geologic column and formation of the earth over millions of years served as grist for the evolution mill. The term dinosaur was coined in 1842. Origin of the Species was published in 1859. All these tended to provide some evidence or support for Atheists and skeptics.

As more and more of these giant, mysterious creatures science called dinosaurs were discovered there was a chance that they could have been associated with the dragons of “recorded history” but instead were placed by science by use of the geologic column to an age millions of years ago.

This fit neatly with modern anti-biblical notions regarding the age of the earth and with evolutionary processes which needed millions and billions of years to complete. Of course any suggestions that dinosaurs were the dragons of the Bible and of ancient cultures would serve to undermine these theories and to support the Bible. The relatively new claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs would seem even more ridiculous if it was understood that dinosaurs were running around with birds –and man just a few years ago.

How Did They do it?

For one thing; scientific illustrators try to make sure that dinosaur depictions look nothing at all like ancient depictions of dragons. It may surprise you to know that scientists actually have no idea what dinosaurs looked like. Witness this rather long exerpt from a Discover Magazine Article in 2000 entitled: What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like?

“In recent months, artists in the workshop have been putting finishing touches on a special exhibit called Fighting Dinosaurs. In a diorama for the new exhibit a fierce velociraptor, looking like a thinned-down turkey with frighteningly large teeth, stalks a protoceratops. With a flanged crest and beaked mouth that make it look like a goat-sized version of its larger and more famous cousin, Triceratops, the protoceratops sees the predator coming and snarls.


The scene is so vivid that some visitors may glance around nervously to be certain they haven’t been whisked back 80 million years by a hidden time machine. “When you come upon a diorama,” says David Harvey, the museum’s vice president of exhibitions, “it transcends all of the data. It becomes a real experience.”

Yet it is precisely that experience with which a growing number of scientists have a big problem: There is precious little data about dinosaurs to transcend. What the museum scientists know about Indians, whales, and elephants is more than enough to mimic real life. But when it comes to dinosaurs, all they really have to work with is an incomplete jumble of bones. Indeed, if the exhibits department were limited to just skeletal data for its dioramas and reconstructions, these halls would take on a most unromantic flavor. For instance, the Indians in the canoe would lack noses, ears, and breasts, and the diorama artists (ignoring for the moment that they are humans themselves) would be at a loss for what to cover them in—slick skin like a dolphin? Monkey fur? Gorilla hair? As for the blue whale, no one would know to make it blue. And the elephants are a special case. There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster.

Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. To begin with, dinosaur skeletons are rarely found intact, and figuring out how scattered bones fit together is not always clear. Then, making the leap of placing tissue and skin on those bones is a process fraught with unknowns.

Some paleontologists trained in comparative anatomy are beginning to analyze microscopic marks that soft tissues make on bones in search of clues to what dinosaurs actually looked like. But taking a pile of bones and conjuring up what snarling dinosaurs about to battle each other really looked like involves at best equal parts educated guesswork and complete artistic fancy. As Mark Norell, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the museum, puts it, dinosaur artwork “is a fantastic leap from what we know.” And most scientists say we may never know a lot more than we do now”….Discover Magazine, September 2000

Dinosaurs look as little like dragons as possible considering that they are both giant, reptilian ‘monsters”. Could artists render them with bonier heads, external ears, beards and the ferocious dragon mien? Not if they want them published or taken seriously. If dinosaurs looked more like dragons it would be even more difficult to get us to “move along” on this issue.

Just a few more things about dinosaurs here; there are not nearly as many types of dinosaurs as you think. Because of evolution theory, dinosaurs are supposed to differ from continent to continent but they don’t. This doesn’t stop science from giving them different names though.

This last note will be important as we begin to look at some actual dinosaur depictions from ancient China—the actual intent of this article –if I can get to it. An article describing a recent study was published in Live Science on June 22, 2009:

Giant Dinosaurs Get Downsized “Some dinosaurs were the largest creatures ever to walk on land, including the classic long-necked, whip-tailed Diplodocus, but a new study suggests it and its many extinct brethren weighed as little as half as much as previously thought.” A new equation for calculating dinosaur mass based on skeletons found that scientists have been overestimating the girth of many dinosaurs.” Giant Dinosaurs get Downsized

    Photo:Might down sized sauropods have looked like this 3,500 year old Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal depiction rather than the standard depiction on the right?

    More here.


Please keep the foregoing in mind and your mind open as you view a few of the many, many examples of dinosaurs catalogued by the ancient Chinese and classed as mythological dragons by modern science; “Crouching dragon? Hidden Dinosaur?” I picked China here today because China and Asia are thought to be the ancient source of the “mythological dragon”. In truth, they appeared in the art and written history of virtually all ancient cultures in some form because “dinosaurs” lived all over the planet within recorded history. Of course it must be said that many alleged mythological creatures were in fact fanciful.

It’s time for a little show and tell!
[whisper] chris parker; these are not the dinosaurs you seek…

Tang Dynasty Running Dragons

I’ve often particularly noticed these little gold Tang Dynasty (618 A.D. to 907 A.D.) running dragons at the Shanghai Museum. Known as running dragons, this little herd of “dragons” are versions of the same type of dragon that crops up in the art of a number of ancient Chinese Dynasties. What a curious way to portray a mythological creature! In a herd.

I thought that perhaps they might be depictions of actual creatures but I was never successful in finding anything similar in modern depictions of dinosaurs.

I noted that there are other versions of this dragon in ancient Chinese art, but I also came across a very similar dragon in the art of ancient Babylon. What strikes me about these dragons is their slight build but also the seemingly “exaggerated” distance between their front and back legs. They certainly don’t make one think of most modern depictions of dinosaurs.

Remember however, that 1) no scientist today has a clue what dinosaurs actually looked like and 2)there is some indication that artists have been placing a little too much meat on the bone; oversizing them as much as double according to the Live Science article quoted above.

The Tang Dynasty dragons are in the center; on the right of the graphic is the famous dragon of Marduk from the Babylonian Ishtar gate. The Babylonian dragon precedes the Tang Dynasty versions by 1,000 years. Is it a coincidence that two ancient societies created nearly identical mythological dragons?


Perhaps. But perhaps not.. The creature on the left is Massospondylus (above photo; skeleton is alongside this para) (“a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the early Jurassic Period (Hettangian to Pliensbachian ages, ca. 200–183 million years ago).” Wikipedia), as it appears on a Canadian stamp.

Massopondylus’ skeleton is very slight and most artists have depicted it as a heavier creature. However, drawn as a slighter animal it bears a resemblance to the Chinese dragons. Certainly if this group of dinosaurs, including other similar dinosaurs such as plateosaurus (small prosauropods) had been depicted like this some of us would have drawn a straighter line between dinosaurs and dragons even without the external “dragon” features.

“fossil concentrations have suggested that Massospondylus was a herd animal, perhaps wandering through the ancient landscape of what is today South Africa – as well as the rest of Africa – like modern wildebeest. It was certainly widespread. Remains of Massospondylus have also been found in North and South America, China and India.

When Massospondylus was alive, today’s land masses were all joined together in the super-continent Pangaea (‘Pan-jee-a’, which is Greek for “All Earth”). This distribution of fossils indicates that the animals were present in large numbers over very large areas.” ….www.primeorigins.co.za/young_minds/massospondylus.htm

Let’s look at other slighter depictions of prosauropods like Massopondylus and compare them to depictions of ancient Chinese “dragons”.

At left, on top, is a Song dynasty dragon, (1127 A.D.-1279 A.D.) in silver and gold with turquoise inlays from the Musee Guimet, in Paris. Below is a depiction of plateosaurus, a prosauropod, similar to massospondylus. (Note to the detail oriented: the modern depiction has the rear left leg extended backwards at the same time as the forward left leg is extended forward. The mythological dragon seems as though he has the better gait?)

Do these dragons in fact represent truer versions of prosauropod? It could be. The point remains that no one knows what dinosaurs actually looked like.

 

 

I want to show you an additional dinosaur depiction that makes it clear that the same allegedly mythological dinosaur was modeled by as we showed the Babylonians on the Ishtar Gate, (604- 562 BC), the Tang Dynasty (618A.D. -907A.D.) and ancient South America from the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).

On top is a piece from the Julsrud collection; a collection of over 30 thousand miniature figurines found buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico.

Of course, because the collection features so many obvious dinosaurs interacting with man it is not considered to be genuine. It is remarkable that the same dinosaur/dragon depiction has appeared on at least three continents representing cultures spanning 1,500 years.

The dinosaur/dragon on the bottom is also from the Tang Dynasty; it is a rare painted ceramic that recently sold at auction for over $23,000. The fact that the 1945 discovered Julsrud collection depicts dinosaurs not as modern artists do but as the ancients did provides credibility for the collection and the idea that these are real and not mythological creatures.


Here on the right an apparently clueless ancient Chinese hunter chases a “mythological creature” with either a bow or a bolo weapon. These Sketches (rubbings) of Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to 220 A.D.)motifs are by Lampo Leong, a University of Missouri Professor. The dynamic movement is typical of Han art. This appears to be the same dragon depicted by the Tang Dynasty, the ancient Babylonians, the ancient South Americans and-the Canadians!?

Science does not know hat dinosaurs looked like but “it” is sure of this one thing; they did not look anything like dragons!

Moving on.

Liao Dynasty

This next beautiful piece comes down to use from Liao Dynasty, China. (Photo from Wikimedia). It is a drinking flask covered with a Sancai glaze.

“The Liao Dynasty, also known as the Khitan Empire was an empire in East Asia that ruled over the regions of Manchuria, Mongolia, and parts of northern China proper between 907 – 1125. It was founded by the Yelü clan of the Khitan people in the same year as Tang Dynasty collapsed (907), even though its first ruler, Yelü Abaoji (Yaruud Ambagai Khan), did not declare an era name until 916.” Wikipedia

This piece is interesting because it features two different dragons. I want to discuss the “dragon” on the top of the flask. First of all, as for it being a dragon; it instead reminds me very much of a ceratopsian dinosaur. After all “ceratopsian” is Greek for “horned face”. The ceratopsians, which includes triceratops; supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years prior to the Liao Dynasty.

I see the horned face, and I see what appears to be from the only angle we have, a rudimentary neck frill.

But do you know what else?

Yes! The feet!. The dinosaur feet! Well, feet that would make tracks similar to those three-toed tracks made by many types of dinosaurs (although there are wide variations in three-toed dinosaur tracks). Note here the leptoceratopsian dinosaur; his feet are very similar to that of our dragon aboard the flask.

Note: “Except in extraordinary circumstances, it’s pretty much impossible to identify the specific genus or species of dinosaur that made a given footprint. What paleontologists can figure out fairly easily is whether the dinosaur was bipedal or quadruped (that is, whether it walked on two or four feet); what geological period it lived in (based on the age of the sediment where the footprint is found); and its approximate size and weight (based on the size and depth of the footprint).”..About.com Dinosaurs

Early American naturalist Edward Hitchcock wrongly interpreted the thousands of dinosaur footprints that he encountered on the America plains as the footprints of giant, flightless birds who roamed the Americas in giant herds. His mistaken hypothesis was taken up by a number of other naturalists for a time.

Here however, the Ancient Chinese somehow rightly associated dinosaur footprints with large dragon and dinosaur-like reptiles….

On the right here we compare the two right footprints of our Liao Dynasty dragon with those of the dinosaur. My guess is that the Ancient Chinese did not have to look at ancient tracks on the plain to figure out what sorts of creatures made them. The creatures; dinosaurs were still living at that time.

 

 

Late Eastern Zhou Sauropod

“The Shang dynasty (1766 BC – 1027 BC) ruled parts of northern and central China. Its capital city was located at Anyang near the border of Henan from about 1384 BCE. This dynasty was based on agriculture; millet, wheat, and barley were the primary crops grown.

In addition to the crops, silkworms, pigs, dogs, sheep, and oxen were raised. Aside from their agricultural prowess, the Shang dynasty was also advanced in metallurgy. Bronze ships, weapons, and tools were found from that era.” Thinkquest

This Ancient Chinese ornamental box of bronze features an unmistakable depiction of a sauropod dinosaur. To be more precise, likely a prosauropod dinosaur. A version of the object appeared in the book (The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285.) Fong, Wen ed. This photo is from Zhengzhou, from the Henan Museum.

The sauropod dinosaurs are easily recognizable and difficult to miss, however, might science here again made its depictions of the creature to large? One alternative to consider is that the creature depicted is one of the group that modern science now calls prosauropods who among other things was generally smaller. The creature crawling up the side of the box is also making an appearance here out in the water in the introductory photo at the very top of the page.

Here also he is shown in comparison to several dinosaurs described as ancient Chinese prosauropods, extinct for over 65 million years.

Top, left Yunnanosaurus; “ a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the Early to Middle Jurassic Period, a position in time that makes it one of the last prosauropods. It is closely related to Lufengosaurus. Known from two valid species, Yunnanosaurus ranged in size from 7 meters (23 feet) long and 2 m (6.5 ft) high to 13 m (42 ft) long in the largest species.” Yang Zhongjian (aka C. C. Young) discovered the first Yunnanosaurus skeletons in the Lufeng Formation of Yunnan, China…Wikipedia

Bottom, right: Yimenosaurus .”Along with its close contemporary, Jingshanosaurus, Yimenosaurus was one of the largest prosauropods, measuring about 30 feet from head to tail and weighing as much as two tons–not much compared to the plus-sized sauropods of the late Jurassic period, but beefier than most other prosauropods, which only weighed a few hundred pounds. Thanks to its numerous (and near-complete) fossil remains, Yimenosaurus is one of the better known herbivorous dinosaurs of early Jurassic Asia, rivaled only by another Chinese prosauropod, Lufengosaurus.”…Wikipedia

PHOTO;Lufengosaurus Skeleton

The point here is not so much to identify the actual species of prosauropod that the Eastern Zhou “dragon” represents but rather to show that the artist could have credibly meant to represent one of these animals which were thought to have gone extinct 65 million years prior to the Shang Dynasty. This crouching dragon was more likely a hidden dinosaur.

 

 

Han Dynasty Theropod Dinosaur

The Chinese dragon bronze sculpture (below right, faded) is on display at the Glendive dinosaur and fossil museum in Glendive, Montana.

It is dated to the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.)and is approximately 2,000 years old. The piece looks remarkably like a Theropod dinosaur including the correct posture, dermal spines, and forearms that end in “hands”. It bears a remarkable resemblance to a Therizinosaur.

The larger and clearer photo of the figure to the left is a virtually identical artifact described as an “ancient Chinese artifact”. The item is for sale on EBAY. The seller claims that it is a bronze, ancient piece from the Bronze Age of China.

If the item is authentic, then it bears a close resemblance to a Therizinosaur with its exaggerated claws and bi pedal stance. One would have to be impressed that the ancient Chinese could have even mythologized a bi pedal dragon/dinosaur. (Note the “compare” drawing is actually of Harpymimus (Wikidino) which is basicallly the Chinese version of the same theropod dinosaur.)

 

 

Ancient Chinese Fu (Foo) Dogs/Lions and other Mysterious Buddhist Temple Creatures

Photo:Pair of Asian stoneware lions 18th century.(1700’s) Busacca Gallery.

Foo Dogs/Lions are neither dogs nor lions. No one is quite sure what they are/were other than mystical creatures. I’ve been interested in them for some time because they are so ubiquitous, because they appear elsewhere in the ancient world outside of China; in ancient India for instance.
From Wikipedia “Chinese guardian lions, known as Shishi lions (Chinese pinyin: shísh?; literally “stone lion”) or Imperial guardian lion, and often incorrectly called “Foo Dogs” in the West, are a common representation of the lion in pre-modern China.

They have traditionally stood in front of Chinese Imperial palaces, Imperial tombs, government offices, temples, and the homes of government officials and the wealthy, from the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220), and were believed to have powerful mythic protective benefits. Pairs of guardian lions are still common decorative and symbolic elements at the entrances to restaurants, hotels, supermarkets and other structures, with one sitting on each side of the entrance”.

Photo: Wall at the Ellora Caves

Some time ago I was struck by the following description; from India of a dragon which seemed to picture a creature somewhat similar to the Chinese Foo Dog. Later I found a photo of this Temple scene which also seemed to match the written description of a living creature.

“This kind also have beards, and lift their necks on high, while their scales glitter like silver; and the pupils of their eyes consist of a fiery stone, and they say that this has an uncanny power for many secret purposes.

The plain specimen falls the prize of the hunters whenever it draws upon itself an elephant; for the destruction of both creatures is the result, and those who capture the dragons are rewarded by getting the eyes and skin and teeth.

In most respects they resemble the largest swine, but they are slighter in build and ‘flexible, and they have teeth as sharp and indestructible as those of the largest fishes.”

(See the creature on the far left of the photo above). The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}On the Existence of Dragons …. Upon his visit to India

Let’s cut to the chase; I may have discovered what these creatures were and they were not mythological as modern science can attest. However, they weren’t dinosaurs either-which is why it took so long for me to identify these particular Chinese/Indian dragons.

For the final section of this somewhat long article I modestly propose to unmask in fact two ancient “mythological creatures”-by name, both of whom it is claimed lived 255 -260 million years ago. One key in examining this upcoming visual evidence is to remember that modern science and modern scientific illustrators like to draw their retrospective animal recreations “unadorned”.

“Moschops (meaning calf face) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Late Permian, around 255 million years ago. Therapsids were proto-mammals (non-mammal synapsids), which were the dominant land animals. Five metres long, Moschops was the largest land animal of its time, a herbivore preyed on by other therapsids. Its remains were found in the Karoo region of South Africa.

Here is a photo of “dragons” on the temple roof in Ellora.

It was the largest land animal at the time, with a body length of around 5 metres (16 ft). It was a heavily-built herbivore with short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. The forelimbs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind limbs were more mammalian in form, being placed directly under the body. The diet of Moschops was mostly plants, sometimes eating meat.”

“Ellora (Marathi) is an archaeological site, 30 km (19 mi) from the city of Aurangabad in the Indian state of Maharashtra built by the Rashtrakuta dynasty. Well-known for its monumental caves, Ellora is a World Heritage SiteEllora represents the epitome of Indian rock-cut architecture.

The 34 “caves” – actually structures excavated out of the vertical face of the Charanandri hills. Buddhist, Hindu and Jain rock-cut temples and viharas and mathas were built between the 5th century and 10th century” Wikipedia….


Are you familiar with the flack that has been caused by the discovery of a stegosaurus depiction at Angkor Wat? “(or the ceratopsian at Muktinath Temple?

This “dinosaur”/dragon depiction is much older. Here is an up close picture of the Ellora Roof Dragon and moschops or a close relative. Moschops did not live over 250 million years ago. He lived within the history of mankind. He was created by God during the six days of creation.

One could literally crop a close picture of the Ellora dragon, label it Moschops and when it came up in image searches for moschops the internet searcher would be none the wiser.

Another group shot of the ellora roof dragon and moschops should make it even more clear that these creatures were living in India during the 5th century A.D.

How did I get in India talking about moschops when I started out writing about Chinese dinosaur/dragons? I have to confesds that initially I believed that the Foo Dogs of China and India were moschops or one of its close relatives.

This just proves that like paleontology, cryptozoological historical archaeology is not an exact science. It’s not even an exacpt pronunciation. I have come to believe that the Foo dogs/lions of China might have been another creature entirely.

Anteosaurus (meaning “previous or early reptile”) is the name given to an extinct genus of large carnivorous synapsid. It lived during the Capitanian epoch of the Middle Permian (266-260 million years ago) in what is now South Africa. They became extinct by the middle Late Permian.

Anteosaurus was a semi aquatic synapsid with a long tail and weak limbs, which indicate a lifestyle including water, much like that of a crocodile. Anteosaurus weighed approximately 500-600 kg and was around 5-6 m long…

Let’s compare a modern depiction of Antesaurus with an ancient one of the Foo Dog/lion.

There is a lot to like in this depiction of antesaurus as a possible model for the Food dog in China and India;.the musculature, the posture and the incisors to name a few.

This Marx toy version of Moschops by Marx toys is what first made me see a possible association with Moschops.

There are so many articles of ancient art that we didn’t get a chance to examine here that there will no doubt have to be, God willing a part two and three of this article.

These are the dinosaurs you seek.

I feel a disturbance in the farce.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

Dinosaur and Human Interaction in Our Times (the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago-Sun Times etc. Historical Newspapers)

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 03 2011

Photo: Dr. Requena reports finding artifacts of an unknown, advanced civilization in Venezuela who had sculpted extinct creatures incuding several versions of the diplodocus dinosaur. Modern Mechanix, 1934

by Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Quoted Headlines and news content in this article are in a blue font

“Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth” (Isaiah 40:26).

Charles Darwin’s book; “The Origin of the Species; was written back in 1859. The word “dinosaur” had been coined a few years earlier, in 1841 by Sir Richard Owen.

I began a review of the dinosaur and man controversy in the press after that time thinking that perhaps the world of science and news reporting would have still been rather naive and innocent for a time and still willing to report things as they were discovered-without the filter and hold that Darwinism currently holds over both.

Actually, the Darwin free “honeymoon period” proved to be remarkably short, however, scientists did make reports during this period that would ruin the reputation of anyone making such “scientific” claims today.

Some say that you can’t prove a negative; what is true is that when you make a negative proposition, i.e. “blue fairies don’t exist”, the breadth of that statement is universal, while the positive (opposing) side of that argument, i.e. “blue fairies do exist” only has to be shown to be true in one place in the universe to be correct and to simultaneously prove the “negative proposition” incorrect.

Photo: Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal showing sauropods from 300 B.C. The Lovre.

Another example of this type is the proposition that man and dinosaur never interacted. In fact, according to science, they missed each other by 65 million years. This negative proposition must be universal to be true; that is, man and dinosaur never interacted at any time or in any place in this universe.

For the opposing proposition to be true; that man and dinosaur did coexist- it need only be proved that they in fact, did interact at least in one instance at one time and at one place anywhere in the universe.

But we have proof of much more than a single instance in the newspapers and magazines that existed prior to the complete establishment of the Darwin filter.

Advanced Civilization in Venezuela Lived with Dinosaurs
Special Correspondence to the New York Times, Caracas, June 5, 1932 PUBLISHED JUNE, 12 1932
DATES EARLY MAN BACK 8,000 YEARS
Dr. Requena Holds Discoveries Indicate Venezuela Was Civilization’s Cradle
Found Fossilized Skulls—Lake Valencia Relics Show That Makers Were Familiar With Prehistoric Animals

In the early 1930’s Dr. Rafael Requena was an anthropologist affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela.

From the above named article:

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.

Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…”

Photo:Closeup and comparison of one of Requena’s sauropods. From photo at top of page.


The article goes on to mention that the skulls of the people found at the location had been fossilized. Dr. Requena noted that there appeared to be a high degree of civilization that preceded all other South American civilizations. Dr. Requena, assuming that the current scientific thinking re the age of the dinosaurs was correct, and finding numerous examples of sculptured dinosaurs, reasoned that the civilization and the dinosaurs must have been from 250 million years prior.

In his book he endeavored to link the ancient civilization to Atlantis.

The April, 1934 issue of Modern Mechanix, ran an article about Dr. Requena and his archaelogical discoveries in an article entitled; “Scientists Find Traces of Two Lost Continents”. The pictures that accompany this portion of our article on dinosaurs and man in historical press accounts comes from the Modern Mechanix article.

From that article:


“DOWN through the ages, man has hung to the words of Plato. For Plato told of a great continent, Atlantis by name, which slipped under the waters of the sea, carrying with it an entire civilization.
Recent discoveries point to the fact that approximately 250,000,000 years ago, South America, Africa, India, Australia and a great portion of the Antarctic region were a single continent.

Similar discoveries reveal the existence, until about the same period, of a North Atlantis, a sort of super-continent, which ran from the present western shores of North America to the British Isles, and possibly connected, by a few small peninsulas, with Europe.

Mysterious prehistoric rock writing, recently found in Venezuela by Dr. Rafael Requena, is believed to be the work of people who lived on the lost South Atlantis. In addition to the writings, Dr. Requena has found many relics of a by-gone culture.

They include small statues of humans, with males and females easily distinguished and replicas of animals, many of which resemble the strange dinosaurs which have been dug up in other portions of the world.”

Well, that’s it, right?

The one instance in the world of scientifically verified interaction between man and dinosaur that disproves the proposition that man and dinosaur never lived together? After all, there wasn’t just a single piece that perhaps could have been misinterpreted; there were several sculptures of “diplodocuses” in various poses and sculptures of other dinosaurs and extinct creatures; not discovered by some nameless amateur but by a scientist?

Unfortunately, not as far as “science” is concerned.


On the same continent, over 17,000 and counting “Ica Stones” discovered in 1966 near Ica, Peru; many displaying drawings of dinosaurs and technology such as telescopes etc. and 32,000 Acambaro figurines, many in the shapes of dinosaurs and other extinct or fantastic creatures discovered in 1944 in Acambaro, Mexico have also been ignored by the scientific community.

Dinosaurs and Man in the Gobi Desert

“Roy Chapman Andrews (January 26, 1884 – March 11, 1960) was an American explorer, adventurer and naturalist who became the director of the American Museum of Natural History. He is primarily known for leading a series of expeditions through the fragmented China of the early 20th century into the Gobi Desert and Mongolia. The expeditions made important discoveries and brought the first-known fossil dinosaur eggs to the museum.” Wikipedia


This next series of articles deals with the discoveries of Roy Chapman Andrews in the Gobi desert. Andrews was a well known adventurer scientist of his day whose adventures often made the front pages of the New York Times and newspapers and magazines across the country and the world. It is important to realize that Andrews was not outside of the scientific mainstream but was a part of it. He was always associated with the American Museum of Natural History.

Explorer Finds Remarkable Tools of Stone-Age People
Roy Chapman Andrews, Back from China Describes Prehistoric Life
Miami Herald, August 25, 1925

“Stone implements and weapons of a race of men who lived thousands of years ago among sand dunes on the shore of a lake since swallowed up by the Gobi desert have been found far in the interior of Mongolia by the third Asiatic expedition of the American Museum of Natural History……

…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs laid by the dinosaur, the giant reptile that roamed the Asiatic uplands some 10,000,000 years ago….”

In case you missed it, Chapman believes that man lived with dinosaurs in ages past because they had made ornaments out of dinosaur eggs, something that could only be accomplished with unfossilized dinosaur eggs!

Andrews Expedition
Glasgow Herald, September 9, 1925

“Among the most unique of these discoveries were the various clutches of dinosaur’s eggs, which were unearthed to the number of forty this year and thirty last.…

….Fragmentary dinosaur’s eggs figure also among the human relics, for a number of pieces were found which had been cut in regular shapes, presumably to form ornaments for prehistoric belles.”

Humans Coeval with Dinosaur (Coeval: of the same or equal age, antiquity, or duration)
The Spokesman-Review – Aug 19, 1925

Photo: The Mongolians drilled and cracked dinosaur egg shells as well as ostrich egg shells to make jewelry. Ostrich eggshell jewelry is shown here.

“…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs left by the dinosaur…..They used for the same purpose the egg shells of a gigantic ostrich, long ago extinct”.

Mr. Andrews went on to date the age of the Mongolian dinosaur civilization back to 25 million years ago as science came to move the age of the dinosaurs back further in time. Clearly the Mongolians were coeval with the dinosaurs whenever it was that they lived. Calling them primitive even though no human remains were found was their way of trying to preserve some kind of evolutionary order.

Additional Articles

Only 50,000 Years Old
The Meriden Daily Journal – Jun 18, 1925

“Moscow—Two human skeletons of the Neanderthal type, believed to be at least 50,000 years old recently found in a cave near Crimea.

The skeletons of dinosaurs, hyenas and bears were also found in the cave.”

Prehistoric Game Found
Monsters With Which Ante-dilluvian Man Contended
The Turners Falls Reporter – Dec 16, 1908

“The remains of the Dryopitheous or fossil man discovered on the Bengawan River, in Java mixed as they were with fossil bones of reptiles of the Cainozoic (SIC) age, and lying in the cretaceous strata, clearly prove that man was contemporary with the later of the giant Saurians.


Moreover, the discovery of the Nampa image, a piece of handiwork found in the cretaceous strata in Ada county, Idaho would imply that he had attained some slight degree of art. Assuming then that man was living in the Cainozoic (SIC) age, the question is, how did he survive his acquaintanceship with the gigantic Saurians….”

Confirms Story of Prehistoric Finds in Kenya Colony—U.S. Anthropologist Says Bones Prove Theory of Man’s First Habitat
In Stone Age Deposit
The Montreal Gazette – Sep 24, 1927

“….the Cutler dinosaur expedition to Tanganyika, who in six weeks found seven skulls at Nakeru in a Stone Age deposit, and also unearthed a complete skeleton of a six foot man buried twelve feet deep with more than 100 stone tools. Dr. Collie gave a pledge to the discoverer not to discuss the details of the Kenya find until after Dr. Leaky (yes that Dr. Leaky) has published them this fall.

He stressed the importance of the discovery because of the apparently inexhaustible supply of these remains, and the fact that traces of dinosaurs were found. Mr. Leaky was acting for the Royal Society and the Cambridge School of Anthropology, where he is a lecturer.”

The Sunday Tribune – Mar 15, 1925

Petrified Footprints of Man Assured Museum
Evidence of Human Life on American Continent Millions of Years Ago Offers Basis for Speculation
The Deseret News – Jul 24, 1934


“Here are the footprints of the Huntington Man claimed by scientists to have roamed the wilds of Utah nearly 200 million years ago. You will note that the foot widens out at the toes, indicating that the owner of these footprints must have had to walk on soft or miry ground. The prints are almost a foot long, and more than five inches across the toes. The deep mark at the side of the footprints was probably made by the head of a flint spear, resting on marshy ground.

….If these footprints were made when the sand of this period were soft then man must have been there to make them! So if you can, envision wild and woolly men riding tamed herbiverous dinosaurs racing up and down the country……”

In this gentler, less dogmatic Darwinist time, science appeared to be willing to admit that man and dinosaur interacted. The time difficulty enters in because they still accepted the Darwinist geological time scale. When was sandstone formed they believed; 200 million years ago. Therefore they reasoned, man must have been alive 200 million years ago-along with the dinosaurs.

The truth is that the rock formed and the man left his prints and dinosaurs all lived within the last few thousand years.

Unearthed Image Presents a Puzzle
The Calgary Daily Herald – Aug 6, 1924

“A rock image lately unearthed near grand Lake, high in the Colorado Rockies, presents a puzzle. It is a blue granite stone weighing 66 pounds. But what makes it remarkable is that it is covered with carvings indicating a very early period of human life.


The mammoth animals outlined are contemporaneous with the Cro-Magnon age. Among those pictured are prehistoric dinosaurs and mastodons. The main carving represents an early man with hands that have but three fingers. The flat nose pictured is generally associated with a race preceding the Aztecs according to J.A. Jeancon, curator of the Colorado Historical and Natural History Society.” Article

Oldest Footprints in the World
The Portsmouth Sunday Times – Feb 14, 1931

“A number of clearly defined footprints in solid rock have just been discovered in France which are believed to date back from two to three million years and perhaps record the mysterious first man. The face of the rock in which the prints are embodied is criss-crossed with the steps of dinosaurs and similar prehistoric animals and indicates that a terrific struggle once occurred there.

The imprints were, of course made when the rock was soft and then slowly hardened and were preserved for all time. The amazing discovery was made at Bagnoles-de-l’Onrne in Normandy by Dr. Marcel Morin, a well known French scientist.

…..Archeologists have been much impressed by this discovery. As a result of their investigations it is suggested that man first appeared in the earlier periods of the Tertiary Age of Mammals, which ranges loosely between two and sixty million years ago.”

How Science Responds to Its Own Discoveries

Nature is Interesting
Footprints in the Rock
Toledo Blade – Nov 1, 1950

By William Holt, a retired member of the faculty of Bowling Green State University and was recognized as one of the leading geologists in the nation.

“Occasionally peculiar shaped depressions in the surface of the bedrock have caused some persons with abnormal imagination, and a lack of geological training, to “see things” in the rock. Human footprints, hand impressions, and even tracks of dinosaurs or other prehistoric animals are recognized (?).

A most interesting case of a foot-print in a slab of surface rock was recently called to my attention. The footprint was in sandstone, and was so real (?) that to some at least there was no doubt that it was actually made by man. The main question seemed to be how many millions of years old it was.

Although I did not see the original, a clear photograph of it was quite sufficient in this case; and I attempted to make the answer clear to the questioners by the following statements:

First, that no human or animal could possibly make a deep imprint in solid, hard rock.

Second, that this particular Ohio bedrock was formed many millions of years before even primitive man existed. Hence no human foot ever could have stepped on the loose sediments of which this rock later was formed.”………William Holt

William is a materialist “scientist” and thus has trained himself not to believe his own lying eyes. In later years he got himself into trouble by reasoning that the IRS didn’t exist and therefore he didn’t have to pay taxes.

In Conclusion:

August 8, 1955 The Le Mars-Globe

“A skeleton found in a gravel pit here—a fairly complete skeleton, has been declared by Dr. Reynold Ruppe, state University of Iowa archaeologist, to be the remains of an ice-age man, who lived near the south edge of the glaciers which once covered Plymouth
County.

The Monona County ice-age man, who lived at least 10,000 years ago, ..was not like a modern Indian. He’s something older—and something new.

Bones of a dinosaur were found in the same deposit—about 10 feet deeper.

At first this led to speculation that the dinosaur was the aborigine’s pet, but that didn’t hang together. Dinosaurs disappeared from the earth a million years before the first, man showed up.

So the dinosaur must have left his bones a long, long time before the man died, was drowned or trapped in quicksand at the spot near, Turin where his skeleton was recovered.”

The reader sitting on the edge of his seat when he initially began to read this was quickly calmed by the explanation that this could not be what it might have seemed to be– he was reminded that there was no evidence that dinosaurs and man ever lived together! Science!

Though this scene in various forms, in various venues and with a variety of potential proofs has no doubt been played out thousands of times in thousands of locales, the Atheist continues to ask “where is the evidence” or “why hasn’t evidence of this interaction ever been found” and many Christians wonder also while nevertheless holding on to their beliefs. The relevant information is being suppressed-sometimes “automatically” because it doesn’t fit the paradigm.

See Also
Man and Dinosaur Co-Existence Proof Accepted by Science–Giant Footprints in Stone–Giant Humans in Stone–All Verified by Orthodox Scientist After 30 Years of Ridicule

Did Dinosaurs Interact with Man Under Blue South American Skies? If You Believe the Darwinist Timescale Applies; Viewer Discretion is Advised!

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Religious, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Apr 25 2011

By Chris Parker, s8int.com Copyright 2011
Slide/Movie Transcript: This article is the Transcript to the 15 minute video below. If you want to see all four of the “dinosaurs” we discuss (Ancient Central American), plus the comparisons with modern depictions, then you need to either view the video or the Slide Presentation

Romans 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

If Science is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world, as defined by Wikipedia, then Christianity, if true has nothing to fear from science. Question: does science as currently pursued have anything to fear from God?

And how have the advances in modern science impacted the veracity of the Genesis account?

The Universe cannot have been eternal and cannot be eternal because entropy exists. The universe is winding down. At some point then, the universe was created or came into being. The first law of physics; conservation of matter and energy tells us that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Thus this universe exists outside of natural law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE_P-Jy0TmsT

Watch at Youtube

The cells of everything alive contain a complex language known as DNA that directs all activity of the cell and provides the building blocks for life itself. The information in a single cell of bacteria is staggering; enough to fill every book in your local library several times over. Your body has trillions of cells.

Our experience tells us that language is the product of intelligence.

Significant areas of disagreement between Genesis and science include the origin of life and the age of the earth. Science has not discovered how life began; in fact there are literally hundreds of competing and mutually exclusive “scientific” theories concerning life’s origin. Science insists that whatever the process life had to have begun billions of years ago. Genesis tells us that God created all life-in six days.

It would seem then that the age of the universe is important in the contest between science and Genesis. Some Christians have attempted to integrate their Bible beliefs along with the extreme ages given by science. Yet, there is scientific evidence that the universe is young. Robert Gentry PhD has found Polonium Halos in granite rock around the world. Yet polonium has a half life of only about three minutes. If the magna had been cooling over millions of years as science claims these “halos” should have been destroyed.

The moon’s orbit averages a distance of 238,855 miles away from the earth. The moon moves away from the earth every year by 1.5 inches. If the universe is truly 4.5 billion years old, then the moon should have moved an additional 106,500 miles away.

One of the most pervasive challenges to Genesis it seems is the age of the dinosaurs. The Genesis account would testify that dinosaurs were created at the same time as the other creatures. Yet, dinosaurs do not currently exist.

Is science correct when it claims that dinosaurs died out more than 65 million years ago despite the fact that nearly all ancient cultures had memories of large reptiles known as dragons? The dinosaur problem is one that seems to support an old earth age and at the very least convert the Genesis account into a non-literal creation story-or so it would seem to some.

No creature is more thoroughly described in scripture than the dinosaurs behemoth and leviathan at the end of the book of Job. However, even some Christians assert that the scripture there is only describing a hippo.

But something is amiss; for example; Argentinosaurus, a titanosaurus whose fossil remains were found in Argentina, was estimated to weigh up to 100 tons and to have a length of between 90 and 115 feet. The hippopotamus stands at 4.5 to 5 feet tall and 13 feet long. These creatures are shown to scale here. If one believes that God created all creatures then behemoth had to be a dinosaur!

Fortunately, this is something that we can investigate ourselves. Did our ancient ancestors, unfettered by Darwinism, make images of dinosaurs in such a way as to prove that they lived among them? If not, how would Christians reconcile this lack of evidence with a young earth and special creation?

Ancient Central America

Ancient Central America was the land of the Corobici, Cariari, Chorotega, Diquis, BriBri, Chibcha, Chiriqui, Caribe, Nicoya, Guayabo, Talamanca, and among others! The ancient American pre Hispanic civilizations spanned the time period of between 2000 B.C. and 1600 A.D. and because of advanced farming techniques their cities preceded the cities and civilizations of Europe.

They left a testimony in the form of magnificent art, artifacts and stone monuments. The creatures that they memorialized in their art were expressive, intricate and at times very realistic.

Diquis Culture, Reptile Pendant
The Diquis culture of Costa Rica is best known for the giant stone balls that have been found there. This story is about a gold pendant created by the Diquis culture.

Plesiosaurs have been traditionally divided into two major sub-groups; the long-necked, small headed “elasmosaurs” and the short-necked, larger headed “pliosaurids. These sub groups are somewhat arbitrary.

Dolichorhynchops (top, left of this post) was one of those short necked, large headed pliosaurs. Dolichorhynchops (dolly) is thought to have grown up to 18 feet long and to have dined on squid and other soft fishes. The remains of this animal were found in North America. According to current scientific belief, this creature became extinct about 65 million years ago.

Here is a soft plush toy version of Dolichorhynchops from Everything Dinosaur.

Here .is a “Reptile Pendant” from the Diquis culture, made of gold from Costa Rica, circa AD 500-1550. The source is the Robert Dowling gallery. “All works of art are guaranteed to be authentic and as described, unconditionally, for as long as you own them.”

A closer look at this “reptile pendant” reveals that it is in fact a depiction of one of the short necked plesiosaurs, known as pliosauridae.

Here it is compared to Dolichorhynchops and to pliosaur, another possibility. In any case, the depiction is clear. Here is an animal declared by science to be extinct for 65 million years accurately depicted in gold by a civilization less than 2000 years old.

Science appears to be off by about 65 million years. Score one for Genesis.

Alligator Ware

W. H. Holmes in his 19th century book the “Ancient Art of the Province of Chiriquí”, defined a class of clay objects as alligator ware. These objects were said to feature an alligator (reptile) motif. “The designs range from the rather realistic to the most highly conventionalized representations of the animal. A small number of these vessels are modeled to resemble in form this same reptile.” …C. V. HARTMAN

Even as early as the late 1800’s Darwinism had caused scientists to be circumspect about “reptiles” and attributed many reptile or dragon depictions as depictions of the alligator. In fact, some of the depictions really were representations of the alligator.
Here are a few examples of the “alligator” motive from the 1888 book by W.H. Holmes. Some may see the alligator in these depictions but it seems that the ancient Costa Ricans might have been familiar with the dinosaur. These however are not the object of specific interest here.

The Chiriquí culture was an ancient Central American culture that flourished between 800 and 1200 A.D. Chiriquí means valley of the moon.

The American Anthropologist, Volume 9 of the American Anthropological Association, 1907, published a picture of Chiriquí alligator ware which had been excavated from a gravesite near San Jose, Costa Rica. The piece in question was obtained for the Carnegie Museum from Dr George Grant MacCurdy, of the Yale University Museum and is furthered described as a tripod vase.

According to Wikipedia, “Ceratosaurus was a fairly typical theropod, with a large head, short forelimbs, robust hind legs, and a long tail.” The name means “horned lizard”, in reference to the horn on its nose. It was characterized by large jaws with blade-like teeth, a large, blade-like horn on the snout and a pair of hornlets over the eyes.

Uniquely among theropods, Ceratosaurus possessed dermal armor, in the form of small osteoderms running down the middle of its back. The tail of Ceratosaurus comprised about half of the body’s total length. Of course, ceratosaurus and his bi-pedal dinosaur brethren supposedly went extinct 65 million years ago.

But did they? Let’s look more closely at this alligator ware from the Chiriquí culture and remember the description of ceratosaurus; bi-pedal, snout and eyelet horns, dermal armor in the form of osteoderms running down his back. Osteoderms are bony deposits forming scales, plates or other structures in the dermal layers of the skin.

It doesn’t appear to represent an alligator at all. Instead it looks much more like a theropod dinosaur and several are shown here for comparison. In fact, the horns and the dermal armor make it appear to be a specific type of theropod, the meat eating and ferocious ceratosaurus—or a close cousin.

Science appears to be off on its extinction by about 65 million years.

What do you think? Alligator or dinosaur?

South American Idol

In March of 2011, Paleontologists announced the discovery of a flat headed dinosaur dubbed O. quilombensis in Brazil. The dinosaur was thought to be related to the spinosaurids. “Spinosaurid heads in general resemble [those of] alligators—that’s a common feature,” Kellner a paleontologist stated.

A more well known and possibly related flat headed dinosaur was Suchomimus (“crocodile mimic”) which also had a flat, alligator like head. And yes, flat-headed and alligator like dinosaurs are thought to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.
These alligator headed and flat headed dinosaurs put me in mind of something I had seen in an old book.

Ometepe is an island formed by two volcanoes rising from Lake Nicaragua in the Republic of Nicaragua . The peoples there inhabited the island it is thought beginning from 2000 to 500 B.C.

In the book; The Native Races, Volume 4, By Hubert Howe Bancroft, published in 1886, on page 39 of the section; Nicaraguan Antiquities, we find the following quote and drawing.

“Ometepec, rich in pottery and other relics, and reported also to contain idols, has yielded to actual observation only the small animal couchant (couchant means in a lying position) represented in the cut.

It was secretly worshipped by the natives for many years, even in modern times, until this unorthodox practice was discovered and checked by zealous priests. This animal idol was about fourteen inches long and eight inches in height.”

The creature identified as an “idol” appears to be some type of reptile. Its length of legs and other features suggests that it is not an alligator or a crocodile. In fact, it appears to resemble very closely that group of dinosaurs that we now call alligator like or alligator mimics. Could this be another example of a creature out of time? Out of Darwin time, that is.

The Full Armor of God? Or Darwin?

According to Wikipedia, Ankylosaurs, a group of armored dinosaurs were among the last group of dinosaurs standing going extinct 65 million years ago, wiped out by the “KT extinction”. These armored dinosaurs are said by Darwinists to have evolved their armored defense over millions of years, beginning millions of years ago.

Genesis on the other hand claims that these creatures were created as is with their armor in place—not that long ago. A related group; in fact it may be the same group differentiated by sex or the Nodosaurs which are basically the ankylosaurs without the club tails.

It would serve here to simply look at a number of Nodosaurs.

The Museo De Jade is located in San Jose, Costa Rica and is located on the 11th floor of the Institute for National Security (INS). The building is easy to locate but the museum entrance is off to the left side as you approach the main entrance. The exhibit is the largest American jade collection in the world (over 6,000 works of pre-Columbian art and jewelry). All of their exhibits are not jade and their collection comes from all over the Americas, including ancient North America.

As you can see this ancient South American depiction looks quite a bit like a nodosaurine armored dinosaur. Its very difficult to claim that it represents anything else-though I’m sure that Darwinists will so claim. Don’t worry about the lack of clubbed tail; plenty of armored dinosaurs did not have one.

There were a number of closely related types of nodosaurs so we won’t try to identify the exact type.

What do you think? Who is responsible for the armor on these creatures and did they become extinct 65 million years ago?

Why Paleontology is Not “Science”; When It Comes to Giant Pterosaur Flight, Science Believes Very Strongly Both Ways!

Church of Darwin, Crypto, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 11 2010

by Chris Copyright November 2010

Re: Photo:Ancient Pacific Northcoast First Nations Artists came down firmly on the side of giant pterosaur flight? “Haida Raven Rattle” shows man on the back of large flying creature. A dragon at the rear has tongue connected to rider which was a common feature of these pieces. Comparison with Quetalcoatlus, a giant pterosaur.

There are a lot of “disciplines” out there that call themselves “science” or scientific which in fact are neither. Paleontology is one of those disciplines.

Wikipedia tells us that; “science is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the natural world”. An older definition of science would call it a body of knowledge that could be logically and/or convincingly explained.

Quite a bit of what passes for science these days would not fit either of those “classical” definitions of science; and this specifically includes paleontology. Early God believing practitioners of the Aristotelian method used its logic and its deductive and inductive reasoning to study and make observations about God’s creation. Modern scientific disciplines have become unscientific because its materialistic practitioners create mythologies and just so stories in order to seek to separate God from His creation.

Modern science has become religion. Modern science is about consensus. Modern science is about materialistic explanations only. Modern science is concerned with politics and right thinking. Modern science goes after non-conformists every bit as much as the Catholic Church went after Galileo.

Michael Crichton, an evolutionist, sadly now passed on once wrote:

“In recent years, much has been said about the post-modernist claims about science to the effect that science is just another form of raw power, tricked out in special claims for truth-seeking and objectivity that really have no basis in fact. Science, we are told, is no better than any other undertaking. These ideas anger many scientists, and they anger me. But recent events have made me wonder if they are correct.”…Aliens Cause Global Warming

Crichton’s specific concern was the kind of “consensus science” that surrounded disciplines like climatology and SETI. Science was now in the business of creating a consensus instead of building and organizing facts around testable hypotheses. Not only that science is now in the business of attacking the credibility and motivations of even their brother scientists whenever they failed to bow down to the paradigm, he believed.

As a current example, science has taken to identifying climate warming non adopters by the pejorative term “climate change deniers” in an attempt to cast people who have doubts about the global warming consensus in the same light as those who deny the Holocaust.

Climatology is not science. This supposed scientific discipline studies supposedly studies the history of our planet covering they believe over 4 billion years. In the past 30 years or so they have been building a consensus built upon carefully selected data for “global warming”. In the process, they attack and silence non-believers.

If this really was a science that built and organized testable explanations or that created a body of knowledge that could be logically or convincingly explained, why was the principal fear of that science as late as 1975; worldwide, global cooling?

Here is a headline from the New York Times, 1975: “Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead; Scientists Ponder Why World’s Climate Is Changing; a Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable…by WALTER SULLIVAN, The New York Times
May 21, 1975”.

A discipline that comes to diametrically opposing conclusions within the span of 35 or 40 years about the weather of a planet supposedly 4.5 billion years old has no predictive or scientific value whatsoever. That’s why climatology is not a science. (see All The Really Smart People Believe in Man-Made Global Warming)

Can we say that Genetics is not science? Clearly there are aspects of genetics that fit the classical definitions of science. However, as I.L. Cohen, Researcher and Mathematician and member of the NY Academy of Sciences noted “At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt…….”

He said that because design and intelligence are now obvious and inherent characteristics of the DNA/RNA system. DNA is a language that contains an unimaginable amount of data that is stored in the cells of everything living. DNA is not only a language like English or Russian, it conveys a Message to every living cell that components of the cell understand and execute. Life could not exist without the DNA/RNA system because the instructions for life are conveyed by the system.

Any science that ignores this obvious truth and instead mythologizes a materialistic “explanation” for DNA’s creation and existence cannot be called a science. After all, it is ill-logical and thus anti-scientific to find a message in literally every living cell and not to understand that someone or something intelligent sent that message. The contents of the message conveyed by this langauge in the smallest single bacterium cell is beyond the technology of man.

As an additional blemish on their scientific credentials; “scientists” named a portion of DNA that they did not have the capacity to understand “junk DNA” believing at the time it had no function. As time has passed and it’s become clear that those sections of DNA in fact have very important functions, the term junk science would seem to have been more appropriate.

Cosmology is not a science. The big bang is not a theory; (a hypotheses backed by testing data) it is a materialistic philosophical mythology. How can a scientific explanation fail to explain upwards of 97% of observation? This is in fact the exact opposite of the classical definitions of science. Dark matter and dark energy are two place fillers invented out of darkened imaginations to account for observations in the real world that the theory doesn’t contemplate and can’t explain.

Neither dark matter nor dark energy can be seen or detected. They are invisible, undetectable and mythological in exactly the same way fairies are. This is why cosmology is not science.

Sometimes even “hard science” like physics isn’t science. Not when it has to do the bidding of materialists. In the last several decades it’s become abundantly clear that we live in an anthropic universe. That is, it’s become clear that the universe was created to cradle life and even more disturbing for some; that this planet and solar system have many characteristics seemingly tailored for life.

In desperation, superstring theory; a mythology that there exist an infinite number of universes inhabiting the same space and that we just happen to be one among those infinite universes that supports life has been created out of vivid imagination, materialistic philosophy and chewing gum? Of course, the multi-verses of superstring theory can not be seen, detected. The theory is untestable. This lack of “testability” is precisely why materialists claim that “special creation” is not scientific.

A paleontologist is a “scientist” who studies the history of life on earth, focusing on organisms that lived in the distant past. Paleontologists can wax for hours about the “Cambrian Explosion” and the “Great Dying” mostly without even realizing that they are describing creation and the fall from Genesis.

Paleontology is the kind of science where someone with a PhD can publish an article in a scientific journal suggesting that “maybe” a mutation in a single protein-led to smaller jaw muscles in an ape—which then gave them more room in their skulls to develop a larger “human” brain. This scientific mythology was reported worldwide. One can only surmise that the authors of this “scientific article” and those who accepted it must have had disturbingly large jaw muscles?

Paleontological scientific findings are slavishly reported by the news media and fawned over by materialists because it is the scientific discipline that most directly seeks to support Darwinism and materialism. Evolutionary theory is most often seen through the lenses of this “science”. One with an open mind would be hard pressed to discover one thing that paleontologists are correct about. On the other hand, no one speaks with more apparent authority than the paleontologists. Every body that they study is already dead after all; whose going to contradict?

Remember Ida, the fossil that was supposed to be an early human ancestor that was going to change everything? The subject of the simultaneous release of a book and a documentary and much slavish media reporting in April 2009 did not in the end make most if any of the most prominent Top 10 Scientific Stories of the year lists. How is this possible for a science? (see Fossil Ida; Evolutionists Now Dare Not Speak Its Name)

Well, paleontologists practically invented the phrase; “scientists had previously thought”.

Apologists for non-science science often snootily declare that this is what is great about science; its always willing to admit its mistakes and then to move forward. This is what is admirable about science they say.

Perhaps this is true, but meanwhile; the patient is dead.

In April 2009, a study was published and then breathlessly reported worldwide to the effect that Giant Pterosaurs, a creature supposedly extinct for more that 65 million years, could not fly. “Giant Pterosaurs Couldn’t Fly, Study Suggests”

It’s a mystery how natural selection working through beneficial mutations could confer evolutionary advantage to a creature with giant, useless wings but that is paleontology for you; its not rocket science—its not even science. Shut up and believe.

The study was published by study leader Katsufumi Sato, an associate professor at the University of Tokyo’s Ocean Research Institute.

“Based on the weights and body sizes of modern birds, a new study finds that animals heavier than 90 pounds (41 kilograms) with wingspans greater than 16.7 feet (5.1 meters) wouldn’t be able to flap fast enough to stay aloft.”, the study concluded.

The conclusion casts serious doubt on the flying ability of large pterosaurs such as Quetzalcoatlus, thought to be one of the largest airborne animals of all time.

Dutifully, other scientists began surmising that these giant pterosaurs were swimmers instead. Materialistic science teachers passed this new information on to their students. Young evolution influenced kids began drawing versions of wingless pterosaurs and posting them on evolution websites looking for approval.

Posters on sites like Talk Origins went on and used this new “scientific information” to berate believers. “Why would God create a giant pterosaur that couldn’t fly”? Why would evolution do that they forgot to ask themselves….what would be the evolutionary advantage?

Anyway, another scientist in the paleontological world was working on his own study regarding pterosaur flight. Now, if both of these studies were scientific, and relied on building testable hypotheses or built knowledge bases etc….. One might say, how could they do that? The creatures they study or just bits and pieces of fossilized bones, I would say; “exactly correct” and that again is why paleontology is not science.

Paleontologist Michael Habib offered new findings about giant pterosaurs based on “new models of their wingspans, shape and body mass”. His study was reported on October 18, 2010 in National Geographic News approximately 18 months after the prior study had been reported on, also in National Geographic News.

Now would Habib’s study support Sato’s no fly theory? Would it perhaps suggest that well…..maybe they could fly a little bit given a strong wind, a one thousand foot cliff and Air Jordans?

The title of the new study or at least of the News articles tell the story: “Prehistoric Reptile Could Fly 10,000 Miles”.

“It’s now believed that some of the larger pterosaurs, such as this Tropeognathus mesembrinus, could fly as far as 10,000 miles at a time.

Whether you learned in school to call them pterodactyls or pteranodons, pterosaur fossils have been found all around the world and lived from 65 million to 200 million years ago.

They ranged in size from some with an average wingspan of 6 feet to the giant giraffe-sized Quetzalcoatlus of Texas that could reach up to a 30-foot wingspan.”

Quetzalcoatlus was one of the giant pterosaurs specifically mentioned in the prior article as not being able to get itself off the ground.

Evolution is incredibly flexible and malleable and so are its believers. You see how the article explains that they now believe something diametrically opposed to what they firmly believed only 18 months ago?

Remarkable. That’s why paleontology is more religion; faith and belief than it is science.

Paleontologists have certainly covered the bases here when it comes to giant pterosaur flight. There is one thing that we now know with “scientific certainty”; giant pterosaurs either could not get off the ground and couldn’t so much as even flap their wings—or they were the greatest terrestrial flyers of all time! One scientist claims that his study shows that giant pterosaurs could not get off the ground. The second study indicates that they were the greatest fliers of all time.

Meanwhile, the news media slavishly reports the new information without reference to the old information and certianly without criticism or their own analysis. Materialistic science teachers passed this new information on to their students. Young evolution influenced kids began drawing versions of space-going pterosaurs and posting them on evolution websites looking for approval.

Posters on sites like Talk Origins will now go on and try to use this new “scientific information” to berate believers.

Giant Pterosaurs Couldn’t Fly Study Suggests

Prehistoric Reptile Could Fly 10,000 Miles

The Case For Hadrosaurine (duck-billed, crested) Dinosaurs in Ancient America

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 25 2010

In the last several years we’ve reviewed a number of ancient American artifacts that strongly indicate dinosaur human interaction in ancient North and South America. Individual artifacts can be labeled; “mythological”, given alternate identifications or even have their authenticity attacked-but the weight of a number of such out of place artifacts adds up to at least the possibilty that these represent dinosaurs.

Just as sauropod dinosaurs would be very recognizable in art because of their bulky bodies and long necks, certain hadrosaurs would be recognizable due to their duck like “beaks” and their head crests. For example, the corythosaurus and the lambeosaurs are two very common American dinosaur fossil groups with distinctive, readily identifiable headcrests. Science is unsure about the utility of the crests.

The National Park Service describes them this way: “Hadrosaurs (Greek for “bulky lizard”) are also known as the “duck-billed dinosaurs” because of their long flattened snouts. They first appeared during the Cretaceous period, near the end of the Age of Dinosaurs. Hadrosaurs were very common dinosaurs and fossils have been found throughout North America, Europe, and Asia.

Based on their teeth, paleontologists believe that hadrosaurs were herbivores. Their teeth were mostly small and leaf-shaped, but there were plenty of them. Some hadrosaurs had almost 900 teeth! The hadrosaurs ranged in size from about 10 feet long (the size of a small car) to 40 feet long (the size of a school bus). They weighed up to 3 ½ tons, about as much as two cars!

The hadrosaurs’ feet had three toes, covered in a hoof-like material. Hadrosaurs could walk (or run if a Tyrannosaurus rex was near!) on their large muscular hind legs, but may have occasionally used all four legs while grazing for food. Their long thick tails helped them balance while running.”

Prior hadrosaurine dinosaurs in North America presentations from s8int.com.

The depictions we’re discussing below today unfortunately are not drawn in a way that provides a context for their size i.e., are they dinosaur sized? However, a prior article entitled Did Ancient Americans Ride the Parasaurolophus Dinosaur?-Or Did They Just Exaggerate the Size of Their Sheep? reviews ancient artifacts that provide both a size context (they’re huge) and hadrosaurine features.

(Click photo to go to article)

“On the left, an ancient” painting of a type of crested duck-billed dinosaur (where we are also provided with a size context) whose bones have been found in New Mexico (and other places).

Photo from “Clues to the Past”, by the Archaeological Society of New Mexico:#16, 1990, edited by Duran and Kirkpatrick.

The painting is attributed to the Pueblo 4 culture-AD 1300 to AD 1500.

“The duck-billed dinosaurs Parasaurolophus and Kritosaurus and the horned dinosaur Pentaceratops were the most common dinosaurs living in northwestern New Mexico during the Late Cretaceous.”New Mexico State Museum–Dinosaurs of New Mexico. Compare the painting with this drawing of lambeosaurus.

“See also Authenticated Poinsett County Arkansas Corythosaurus/Hypacrosaurus from 400 to 700 Years Ago?

Latest Dinosaur Human Dinosaur Interaction

In the book; “INFORMATION RESPECTING THE HISTORY, CONDITION AND PROSPECTS OF THE INDIAN TRIBES OF THE UNITED STATES….by Henry M. Schoolcraft L.L.D. Published in 1853, in Section VI entitled: INTELLECTUAL CHARACTER AND CAPACITY OF THE RED MAN”, an ironic title given its casual racism and evident lack of respect, are a number of puzzling artifacts attributed to the North American “Indians”.

We should note that the term “dinosaur” had only been coined 11 years prior to the publication of ‘Information”, in 1842 and that the lambeosaurus, a type of hadrosaur similar to the more well known corythosaurus, would not be discovered until 1900 with the first public description, really not until 1923.

A copy of a native American pictograph in the book presents several interesting creatures which might depict a creature similar to the lambeosaurus. While they are not perfectly conformed to the current, modern depiction of that dinosaur, we know of no other quadruped that sports that distinctive headcrest, has a long thick tail and the ability to walk on either two or four legs, all of which can be seen in the ancient depiction.

The author identifies the animals in question as martens, which have ears but no crests.;

“It (the panel, right to left) commences with the totem of the chief, called Oshcabawis, who headed the party, who is seen to be of the Ad-ji-jauh, or Crane clan. To the eye of the bird standing for this chief, the eyes of each of the other totemic animals are directed as denoted by lines, to symbolize union of views. The heart of each animal is also connected by lines with the heart of the Crane chief, to denote unity of feeling and purpose. If these symbols are successful, they denote that the whole forty-four persons both see and feel alike—That They Are One.

Photo:Ancient Panel “creature” in bi-pedal mode compared with modern conception of the lambeosaurus dinosaur.

No. 2, is a warrior, called Wai-mitrtig-oazh, of the totem of the Marten. The name signifies literally, He of the Wooden Vessel, which is the common designation of a Frenchman, and is supposed to have reference to the first appearance of a ship in the waters of the St. Lawrence.

No. 3. O-ge-ma-gee-zhig, is also a warrior of the Marten clan. The name means literally, Sky-Chief.

No. 4, represents a third warrior of the Marten clan. The name of Mulc-o-mis-ud^ ains, is a species of small land tortoise.

No. 5. O-mush-kose, or the Little Elk, of the Bear totem.

No. 6. Penaisee, or the Little Bird of the totem of the Ne-ban-a-lkiigr, or Manfish. This clan represents a myth of the Chippewas, who believe in the existence of a class of animals in the Upper Lakes, called Ne-ban-a-baig, partaking of the double natures of a man and a fish—a notion which, except as to the sex, has its analogies in the superstitions of the nations of western Europe, respecting a mer* maid.

No. 7. Naswa-j&wim, or the Strong Stream, is a warrior of the O-was-se-wugv or Catfish totem.

Beside the union of eye to eye, and heart to heart, above depicted, Osh-ca-ba-wisj as represented by his totem of the Crane, has a line drawn from his eye forward, to denote the course of his journey, and another line drawn backward to the series of small rice lakes, No. 8, the grant of which constitutes the object of the journey.

The long parallel lines, No. 10, represent Lake Superior, and the small parallel lines, No. 9, a path leading from some central point on its southern shores to the villages and interior lakes, No. 8, at which place the Indians propose, if this plan be sanctioned, to commence cultivation and the arts of civilized life. The entire object is thus symbolized in a manner which is very clear to the tribes, and to all who have studied the simple elements of this mode of communicating ideas.” …Henry M. Schoolcraft L.L.D

In Conclusion

Did hadrosaurines inhabit North America in the recent past? We believe that they did. The fossils that we see are from the larger animals that lived prior to the great flood. In more recent times dinosaurs like other animals were smaller than they were in the past. Just as we don’t have fossils from the great buffalo herds of comparatively recent times showing their interaction with Native Americans or Mound builders, we don’t have much fossil evidence of dinosaurs who lived in the most recent past. Most of the fossils we have in the world were created during the time after the great flood of Noah.

Could the “Mythological” Tarasque Have Been A Living Ankylosaurid Dinosaur?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 21 2010

Photo: Phot Blanchin, Tarascon circa 1900
Click for Hi Res Photo

How does science know when a creature it knows from the fossil record goes extinct? How do they calculate how long it has supposedly been extinct? Remember the coelacanth? According to science pre-1938, the coelacanth, a type of fish, had been extinct for nearly 70,000,000 years.

In other words, extinct for a longer period than the dinosaurs are said to have been extinct.

“Before coelacanths were caught, evolutionists incorrectly believed that the coelacanth had lungs, a large brain, and four bottom fins about to evolve into legs. Evolutionists reasoned that the coelacanth, or a similar fish, crawled out of a shallow sea and filled its lungs with air, becoming the first four-legged land animal. Millions of students have been incorrectly taught that this fish was the ancestor of all amphibians, reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, and mammals, including people”….creationscience.com

Then of course, someone caught one in 1938 and other specimens and populations of the fish have been found in various places, including in the Indian Ocean northwest of Madagascar.

It turns out that science was wrong about the extinction of and evolution of coelacanth by; infinity! :0)

So what about dinosaurs? Science claims that they have been extinct for more than 45 to 65 million years. How do they know that? (You don’t see any around, do you? ) And, even if all dinosaurs were in fact extinct, how could science know how long ago that occurred? Dinosaurs supposedly became extinct before man “evolved” (according to current evolutionary theories) so there should be no memory of dinosaur in man.

Yet, virtually every ancient culture has included “dragons” –very dinosaur like creatures, in their history and art. The particular type of dinosaur that we want to reference here are the Ankylosaurids; armored dinosaurs of various sizes and shapes but featuring body armor, scales and spikes.

Ankylosaurs

“Ankylosaurus was a huge armored dinosaur, measuring about 25-35 feet long, 6 feet wide and 4 feet tall; it weighed roughly 3-4 tons. It became extinct, according to evolutionists over 45 million years ago.” Dubiarestlessplanet.com

“An ankylosaurid is a member of the Ankylosauridae family of armored dinosaurs that evolved 125 million years ago (along with another family of ankylosaurs, the Nodosauridae) and became extinct 65 million years ago during the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event.

Ankylosaurids have been found in western North America, Europe and East Asia, though good specimens are rare; most are known only from bone fragments.

The heavy armour, forming a veritable shell on the backs of ankylosaurids and their clubbed tails, makes them look superficially similar to the mammalian glyptodonts (and to a lesser degree to the giant meiolaniid turtles of Australia).

Their heavily armoured heads formed a toothless beak at the front (comparable to modern birds), though the sides of the mouth and the lower jaw did bear small teeth, deeply inset from the jaw.” Wikipedia

The Tarasque

Photo: Comparison of Ankylosaurid dinosaurs and antique depictions of the Tarasque
Click for Hi Res Photo

The Tarasque has been adopted of late in a number of games; Dungeons and Dragons for one. The Tarasque of history/mythology was a dragon-like creature with a body carapace like a “turtle”, well armored, difficult to kill, very large, having spikes (cones) on its body and on its tail. It’s tail was said to to have also been armored and to have ended in a scorpion’s tail.

The anklyosaurid dinosaur if it had been seen alive, would closely match that description save for the scorpions’ tail. It’s tail would have ended in a club unless it was of the nodosaur variety which were also large but whose tail did not end with a club.

The “problem” is, however that everyone knows that this type of dinosaur became extinct 65 million years ago and thus this could not be a depiction of that type of creature. When discussing Tarasque it is the rule to emphasize the mythological aspects of its description rather than the physical descriptions that recall this dinosaur.

If such a dinosaur was actually seen is it any wonder that the description of it should be less than perfect, subject to exaggeration and speculation and that “mythological” details as to its origin and purpose might have followed?

Could science be wrong by “infinity” again? Faith based evolution believers do not even need to look at the evidence to decide.

Our Section on dinosaurs in History, Literature and Art is Here