Posts Tagged ‘dinosaurs and man interaction’

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2013


“When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; because of his crashings they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins.” Job 41 NKJV

           

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

by Chris Parker
Copyright 2013 C. Parker & S8int.com
Most Recent Prior Article on this topic; No Your Dinosaurs….

Good afternoon.

Dr. Ernst Mayr was a “leading” evolutionary biologist whose work provided a basis for what is known as the “modern synthesis” which is an amalgamation of Darwinian evolution theory and genetics. His work also provided the basis for Niles Eldredge’s and Stephen Jay Gould’s co theory of “punctuated equilibrium” –proposed because those biologists really did believe that “the extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology.”

Following Mayr’s lead they proposed that speciation could take place rapidly in small, isolated groups—where massive evolutionary leaps took place-making transitional fossils difficult to find because they would not exist. In that way they sought to solve a problem that most evolution believing laity don’t even know exists.

This same kind of ‘thought science” wherein motivated materialists scientists create interesting theories to solve or explain away “problems” with Materialist science is performed by; big bang cosmologists with their invisible dark matter and energy and, of course by other physicists who promote string theory (invisible, infinite universes) to explain the amazingly anthropic (man and life friendly) nature of this universe.

But back to Dr. Ernest Mayr; in a debate with Dr. Duane Gish in 1984, Dr. Mayr then a leading voice among evolutionists said the following:

“…creationists have stated that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries in time…Were this momentous statement true the names of its discoverers would thunder down the corridors of time as individuals who made one of the most outstanding discoveries of the twentieth century.”

No doubt, based on his statement Dr. Mayr, who died in 2005, was extremely certain that there were tens of millions of years standing between man and dinosaurs.

As a leading evolutionist and as one upon whose work much of the modern synthesis and neo Darwinism was built he well understood the havoc that would be wrought on materialist beliefs regarding the descent of species and the evolutionary and geological timelines if it could be proved that man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

Nevertheless our plan here at s8int.com today is to prove that Mayr’s “thundering down the corridors of time” should have begun even if this is now the 21st Century.

Toe-tally

The current evolutionary thinking regarding the manus and pes (hands and feet) of dinosaurs is that the fossils found with five fingers and toes are the most ancient dinosaurs and that through evolutionary change more “modern” dinosaurs evolved to have fewer fingers and toes.

This is the same kind of “logic” and thought used to assist in forming the well known but fact free horse evolutionary sequence. One might well wonder why fewer fingers and toes would be considered an evolutionary advancement? Is it a case of “I cried because I had no one finger gloves until I met a man with five fingers”?

Dr. Niles Eldredge, (mentioned above re: punctuated equilibrium) a curator at the American Museum in New York– where by the way the horse evolution series is still being shown said the following:

“There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.” ……Harper’s Magazine, 1985, p60.

The very masculine named Boyce Rensberger, science writer and evolutionist said the following regarding the famous horse series and its accompanying toe-tally ridiculous evolutionary assumptions:

“The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown” . Boyce Rensberger: Houston Chronicle, 5 Nov. 1980, sec. 4, p. 15.

Today it is only high school biology textbook writers and the evolution accepting laity who do not know that the evolutionary horse sequence, a supposed “proof” of the reality of biological evolution is wrong and is not actually supported by the fossil evidence. The same thing will eventually be found to be true of dinosaurs as well.

The dinosaur that we will look at today would have been one of the older dinosaurs according to evolutionary theory making its appearance in pre Columbian art even more of an upset. The other example which will be provided herein today is from a creature said by evolutionists to have lived even before the dinosaurs.

Let’s begin with the thundering down the corridors of time, already.

“265 Million Year Old” Therapsid Pre-Dinosaurs Carved Upon the Roof of the 1300 Year Old Kailashnath Temple (Ellora Caves)

Photo: Suresh.G.Isave – Roof of Kailas Temple, Ellora Caves,India



“Kailashnath Temple, also Kailash or Kail?sa or Kailasanath Temple, is a famous temple, one of the 34 monasteries and temples known collectively as the Ellora Caves, extending over more than 2 km, that were dug side by side in the wall of a high basalt cliff in the complex located at Ellora, Maharashtra, India.

Of these, the Kailasa (cave 16) is a remarkable example of Dravidian architecture on account of its striking proportion; elaborate workmanship architectural content and sculptural ornamentation of rock-cut architecture. It is designed to recall Mount Kailash, the abode of Lord Shiva. It is a megalith carved out of one single rock. It was built in the 8th century by the Rashtrakuta king Krishna I.” ….Wikipedia


Perhaps it is fitting to first look at an absolute dead, lock three dimensional sculpture of four therapsids atop the roof of the Temple at Kailashnath built around the 8th century A.D. Fitting to look at them first because evolutionists believe that they preceded the dinosaurs. Therapsida are a group of synapsids, which supposedly include mammals and their ancestors in the evolutionary scheme. Therapsid dicynodonts appeared on every continent.

These creatures are said by evolutionists to have appeared prior to the evolution of mammals and dinosaurs. We’ll consider the dinosaur “proof” as a second case study.

For comparison purposes we are showing the Ellora “lions” juxtaposed with Moschops, a specific therapsid (perhaps the most well known) whose fossils have been found primarily in South Africa.

As you can see there is a very close resemblance between the modern depictions of a therapsid and the ancient “lions” on the roof of the temple complex. The skull shape and other morphological characteristics, including the bent elbows, body shape etc. make therapsid a good initial identification.

By the way lions do have five toes/fingers on their front paws but the fifth is technically on the wrist and does not make contact with the ground. They do not really look like lions but they do have manes and there was no other ready identification or so it seems. They certainly were not ever going to be identified as therapsids.

In point of fact we have already looked at these creatures and identified them crypto-zoo-archaeologically as representations of dinocephalians like Moschops. What’s diiferent today is that the hands of these animals–God’s creatures are upon us. That is, we found a photo of them with significant enough resolution for us to be able to look at the morphological characteristics of the ancient artists depictions of their manus and pes (hands and feet).

The graphic/photo leading this section is a comparison of the “Ellora Lions” with a depiction of Moschops (top left).
The photo following right conclusively concurs with the therapsid identification. The hands (front feet) of therapsids such as moschops was quite unusual. They had tree-trunk like legs with five toes dispersed around in a semi-circle–exactly what we can clearly see in the combo photos comparing moschops front feet with that of the Ellora lions. In fact the similarities are uncanny, unmistakable and undeniable! These are not lions-they are therapsids very similar to moschops.


If therapsids were depicted 1300 years ago on the roof of the Ellora Cave complex then we need not give credence to evolutionist’s beliefs regarding when these creatures became extinct, what creatures allegedly evolved from which or even what their geological boundaries presumably were.

If the scientific understanding regarding when these creatures lived is off by 250 million years how can one credit anything else science would have to say concerning therapsids?

If you want to recreate this “proof” for yourself, I suggest the following: 1) “Google” or “Bing” search for, “Moschops” and then look at images. Pull down a few images of Moschops that you find expressive of what the creature may have looked like in the view of modern artists.

2)Pull up those photos in a photo editing program. 3)Google image search :”Ellora Caves, roof” or “Kailashnath Temple roof” until you find several showing the “lions”. 4)Download or copy some of those pictures and compare in your photo editing program with Moschops. You should see some very strong similarities between the two sets because the creatures on the roof are in fact therapsids—supposedly extinct tens and tens of millions of years ago.

Next, as an additional “proof” go back to Google and do an image search of Moschops, “feet”, or Moschops “manus” (hands). With a little persistence you will find a drawing or a photo which shows the tree trunk like front legs with five fingers distributed like rose petals in a semi circle around the legs. The toes of this creature are unusual in their shape and distribution and this pattern will be easy to recognize when seen again.

Go back to Google (or Bing) and find a very high resolution of the lion’s feet from the roof of the Ellora complex. This result will be instantly recognizable and conclusive. These creatures can be seen from virtually every angle in various online photographs. The “lions” of the Ellora Caves have all the morphological features of a therapsid dicynodont.

It wouldn’t be that easy to lose 250 million years overnight I’m sure. Darwinists claim that this creature was a mammal-like reptile but given its mammal like external ears and hair perhaps it was a mammal- a fact which in and of itself would destroy the evolution tree.

Photo: Anteosaurus is a therapsid whose fossil’s have been found in India.


Coelacanth aside Darwinists could not possibly be this wrong– you might reason. If after looking at these photos you are still not convinced that the same creature that is represented online as a therapsid dicynodont is the same creature with the same matching manus and pes (hands and feet)and not a bit of doubt was created then you might want to consider the following:

Your belief in the Darwinian system and all its attendant precepts, corollaries, speculations and just so stories may not be evidenced based. Perhaps your belief in this system is “faith” based after all and there is no “evidence” pro or con which could persuade you that man and dinosaur ever co-existed or that the “extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology”.

You may be a “true believer”?

           

700 Year Old Plumbate Vessel Features A Dinosaur with Hands and Feet Clearly Depicted


“Regarding the timing of this vessel, Garduño said that this is late-characterized by its decorative variant cutaway designs are distinguished by their angular strokes a stiff-pot Iguanas Polychrome type, which is one of the components ceramic diagnostics Ixcuintla cultural phase (1100-1350 AD), Middle Postclassic, which represents the later stage in the long sequence of regional development Aztatlán culture.

This is extremely significant if we consider that the leading specialists in the study of iconic ceramic codex type Mixteca-Puebla style, agree that this appeared in the central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) during the Late Postclassic (1250-1521 AD), and even at a later date to 1300 AD in the Oaxacan Mixteca”.. Source:Puerta Norte Acaponeta http://elblogpuertanorte.blogspot.com/2013/05/recupera-el-centro-inah-nayarit.html

Photo: iguanodon with “Hands”


Plumbate ware was manufactured by the ancient Toltecs and is found all around Central America. It was quite frequently orange in color or glossy with incised art.

I have looked at quite a number of pieces of pre Columbian art. Upon initial inspection (FIG 1)I thought that it was perhaps the head of a dinosaur projecting from the vessel but like a number of those pieces that we’ve examined on s8int.com, I wondered if it would be convincing to the true believers or rather the true Unbelievers.


Then as I examined the incision I noticed that it appeared to have elbows and a hand with a number of fingers–with a particularly prominent thumb or possibly a thumb claw. Noting the teeth I thought it most probably a meat-eater and so set to work researching dinosaur fingers and toes etc.. Of course I also initially looked at the dinosaurs of Central and South America.



Dinosaurs with five fingers (or so it appears to have) with the teeth of a theropod dinosaur are supposed to be some of the oldest dinosaurs. “Basal theropods”-and of course I believe in no such thing.. and other dinosaurs with five or four fingers (the depiction appears to be five fingers with only the knuckle of one of the fingers showing) include certain theropods, famously, iguanosaurus and plateosaurus. FIG 2 shows a comparison between the hand of plateosaurus, left, the “hand” of the artifact, center and iguanosaurus, right. Baryonx, a European dinosaur with South American “cousins” in the spinosaurid family is shown in the photo at the top of this article due to its prominent thumb claw- similar to that depicted on the plumbate artifact. FIG 2A shows the upturned hand of the artifact compared with the upturned hand of iguanosaurus with his well known thumb claw.

“The most primitive dinosaurs in the famous theropod group (that later included Tyrannosaurus rex) had five “fingers.” Later theropods had three…” Live Science


After quite a bit of research I was able to find an additional photograph of this artifact and thus was able to see in some detail the artist’s rendering of both the hands and feet of the animal depicted. These fingers and toes make it a certainty that it is a dinosaur that is being depicted by the artist and even provides clues as to the specific species of dinosaur that the artist was able to interact with.



The complete thoroughness of the artist’s rendition of this dinosaur indicates that he/she was familiar with this creature and that he/she had specific morphological knowledge of how the creature moved and how it looked. The dinosaur being depicted is apparently bi-pedal and the artist’s sculpture of how that creature moved is exactly how modern artists might have depicted a bi-pedal dinosaur.

The new photo shows the creature from the other side. What’s clear is that what we are looking at on the other side is a five, possibly four fingered dinosaur hand. The two sides are not identical and the new photo provides details of the elbow, the hand, and the rear feet (See FIG 6). It appears from this side that the hand is represented as three extended fingers and two knuckles.



I believe that the creature’s reptilian head and aspect along with its meat eating dinosaur teeth if I may– comfortably place it in the dinosaur realm for those with open minds.

Spend a few minutes Googling iguana hands or lizard hands as well as the hands of dinosaurs and the conclusion will be all but inescapable. In the end I’ve moved away from the iguanodon identification because of the teeth of this dinosaur. The teeth are of different sizes with very large teeth at the front. A dinosaur that meets the qualifications of being a meat eater, with five fingers and heterodontal (different sized) (See FIG 7) teeth with relatives found in South America is the heterodontosaurus.

Photo: Plumbate dinosaur depiction compared to skeleton of heterodontosaurus FIG 5.



Heterodontosauridae (“different-toothed lizards”) is a family of early ornithischian dinosaurs that were likely among the most basal (primitive) members of the group. Although their fossils are rare, they lived around the globe beginning in the late Triassic Period, and a few late-surviving species persisted into the Early Cretaceous.

Heterodontosaurids were fox-sized dinosaurs less than 2 meters (6.6 ft) in length, including a long tail. They are known mainly for their characteristic teeth, including enlarged canine-like tusks and cheek teeth adapted for chewing, analogous to those of Cretaceous hadrosaurids. Their diet was herbivorous or possibly omnivorous.

Manidens is a genus of heterodontosaurid dinosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Patagonia. Fossils have been found from the Cañadon Asfalto Formation in Chubut Province, Argentina, dating to the Bajocian…Wikipedia



In the next few slides we compare the ancient, pre Columbian artifact with Ceratosaurus and Herrerasaurus. Ceratosaurus because it is a “basal” theropod with an interesting fingers that also had some interesting “head” features such as a snout horn and other protuberances on its head which might incline one to consider it as the animal being depicted. However, assuming that the artist had an actual creature in mind, the teeth did not appear to match.

On the whole though I believe that the ceratosaurus depiction assists us in seeing how close the ancient depiction is to that of modern dinosaur depictions.

The other depiction is of Herrerasaurus. Herrerasaurus had claws similar to those of the plateosaurus above (FIG 2).

Herrerasaurus was given the name “Herrera lizard” because it was found by an Andean goat farmer named Victorino Herrera…Wikipedia.

Photo: Artifact compared to Heterodontosaurus.



The ancient artifact from central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) was likely manufactured 600 t0 700 years ago during the Late Postclassic period between (1250-1521 AD. The artist clearly represented the hands, fingers, head, dentition and rear feet of a bi-pedal dinosaur which had to be living at the time. It was a dinosaur (animal) that he was very familiar with. We can match the fingers and toes with several species of dinosaur though we will admit that a final identification as to species is inconclusive. A dinosaur identification is however; conclusive.

In his review of Carl Sagan’s last book in his review entitled “Billions and Billions of Demons”, Harvard university evolutionist Richard Lewontin said the following.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ”

One can select more than one response in the Poll below.

Convinced that Man and Dinosaur Lived Together?

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I love that quote because it is so honest. Never mind the scientific process we take these positions because we refuse A priori to believe in God or in anything which would tend to prove that God exists. Unfortunately for Lewontin et. al., they have not succeeded. The “Divine foot” has always been completely through the door.

The evidence demonstrated by these two artifacts shows that never mind the Divine Foot, Lewontin et. al.,- the hand of God’s dinosaur is upon thee as is the whole creation.

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody!
Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody.

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 19 2013


Isaiah 35:7
“And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water; in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.”

           
“No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”. by Chris Parker, s8int.com
           

Before you vote; See the follow up to this article Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Did Ancient Artists See and Memorialize Dinosaurs In Their Art?

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Prologue

In the movie; “The Princess Bride” an important character, Inigo has a conversation with the man in black during a sword fight and that conversation has become a trope in television and movies (convention or device used in creative works). The conversation goes something like this:

Inigo: “I admit it: you are better than I am!”
Man in Black: “Then why are you smiling?”
Inigo: “Because I know something you don’t know.”
Man in Black: “And what is that?”
Inigo: “I AM NOT LEFT HANDED” [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]

I sometimes have the feeling that I am in Inigo’s position when I find myself in a conversation with someone about man and dinosaurs living at the same time.

“You believe that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time within the last 10,000 years they’ll say incredulously”? Or perhaps they’ll say it sneeringly, or contemptuously or in some rare cases even sadly or compassionately.

They are quite certain that they have the upper hand, the science, the good sense, the pure knowledge the unmitigated certainty. They slap their foreheads. They roll their eyes. All that. They believe that they are winning this “fight”-discussion-debate because-come on! They may even be fellow believers.

They’re thinking that I have set science aside for some kind of blind faith belief in what science has said is impossible-for the sake of the Bible. They’re thinking I’m living in some anti-science anti-evidence bubble. However, as a Christian I have choices. I could believe as some Christian’s do that God created through evolution and that man and dinosaur did miss each other by millions of years.

I could believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and thus man and dinosaur barely met. I could believe as some Christians do that God sent unbelievers a strong delusion because of their unbelief (Romans 1) and simply put the bones of animals that never existed in the ground in order to further delude them.

I could simply choose not to speak when this topic is raised thinking that as a Christian it is outside of my pay grade, that the answers are unknowable. I could choose to be cowed by the sheer numbers of people who unblinkingly accept the current paradigm.

Caption: The Real Postosuchus? See Below

But I know something they don’t know. I took a fact based approach. I went where the evidence took me and in this internet age the truth can be found. Many non-Christians don’t know that faith is supposed to be built- not on nothing as they assume—but on evidence. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 1:1

I have spent a lot of time sifting through the evidence in ancient history, the work of ancient “biologists” the articles in old newspapers and recently the evidence in world famous archaeological museums. The evidence is clear. The evidence is persuasive.

The evidence proves that dinosaurs and man lived together all over the world in the last few thousand years. Now, the Bible is a “type” of sword and in this dinosaur and man conversation we’re having they are the ones who don’t have the facts or the truth. There is a reason why I am smiling:– I AM NOT LEFT HANDED!

Peabody Museum Zoomorphic Stone Heads

Historians say that dragons appear in the history and art of virtually every ancient culture (as do stories of a great flood). Here’s an interesting fact along those lines; no matter what culture a piece of ancient art comes from everyone can instantly recognize a dragon. Isn’t that interesting? Here we have a supposedly completely mythological creature, a product of the imagination of man and culture and yet they agree across geography and time in the salient characteristics of their portrayals with the added peculiarity that everyone knows that they are dragons?

No modern artist who works for a science journal or a museum or is otherwise engaged in depicting dinosaurs from a few bones is going to draw a dragon-like creature. So, although dragons are reptilian, frightening sometimes preternaturally large creatures—and so are dinosaurs they don’t often look much alike when you get down to the details. But here’s the rub when it comes to that; no one living actually knows what dinosaurs looked like.

In prior articles on this topic we’ve often quoted Discover Magazine on this point;

There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster. Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. Discover Magazine, What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like? By William Speed Weed, Christopher Griffith|Friday, September 01, 2000

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/sep/featdino

Of course, Discover Magazine isn’t the only source that admits that science is just guessing when it puts forth a drawing or illustration of a dinosaur—particularly when many dinosaurs are only known from a few bones.

A new book entitled “All Yesterdays: Unique and Speculative Views of Dinosaurs and Other Prehistoric Animals” by paleo artists C.M Koseman and John Conway is a review of dinosaur depictions and misconceptions in science art and a speculation about potential alternate depictions. They are basically letting the reader in on their secret that the work they do is simply informed speculation.


In the photo on the right they freely speculate on how a dinosaur paleontologist might have interpreted the bones (absent muscle and soft parts) of the cow and the housecat (bottom).

This interpretation problem makes it tougher on “crypto-zoo-archaeologists” like me. My hypothesis that man and dinosaur lived during the same age and that the ancient peoples would have left evidence in the form of their art, history and artifacts is complicated by the fact that the work of paleo artists today might not match up with the work of the actual eyewitnesses living in the past.

Thus, for instance a dinosaur in an archaeological museum like Harvard’s Peabody Museum might be perfectly depicted by the ancient artist but not match up with current thinking on how that dinosaur looked and go unrecognized; categorized as zoomorphic, unknown, animal, mythological creature or simply reptile. (Actually my experience is that any depiction recognizable as a dinosaur or one which is deemed too close does not end up in the front room of the museum in any case).

For example, in eyewitness viewings of what I believe are living pterosaurs over the last few years some have described the creature the saw as “almost prehistoric looking”, which could mean that they saw a living creature that did not completely comport with modern illustrations of the creature.

Moche Culture Vase in the Form of…?

In the last few weeks I set out to prove my hypothesis at the Harvard Peabody, online archaeological museum site as well as at other online collection sites. The Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University “is steward to one of the oldest and largest collections of cultural objects in the Western Hemisphere”. Other online collections visited include, the Penn Museum, the Met and several Museums of Central and South America.

Could it be shown that creatures that are recognizable as dinosaurs and Not dragons-in the mythological sense are somehow going unnoticed in their online collections? Can we show how specific types of dinosaurs might have been erroneously depicted? In that case, the depiction would have to be close enough for an identification to be made.

In this article and shall we say “collection” I intend to show once again through the arts of ancient peoples that man and dinosaur lived together within the last 5,000 years—but only to the fair and open minded.

           
The Eyewitness to Recent, Ancient History Dinosaur Collection, Part 1

1)Chasmosaurus at the Museo Larco, Peru


Actually it is not a piece from the Peabody that I wish to start with. It is a piece from the Museo Larco that illustrates the points we have been making about identification and misidentification most clearly. (See complete vessel at top of this article).

The Larco Museum (Spanish: Museo Arqueológico Rafael Larco Herrera) is a privately owned museum of pre-Columbian art, located in the Pueblo Libre District of Lima, Peru. The museum is housed in an 18th-century vice-royal building built over a 7th-century pre-Columbian pyramid.

The Inca civilization spanned the period of 1438 to 1533 in pre-Columbian South America. That would make this piece between 500 to 600 years old.

Inca Pot Water Carrier Lima
Museo Larco, Peru

I believe that the animal atop this Inca water carrier (and atop this article) is a ceratopsian dinosaur of a type similar to Chasmosaurus particularly given the placement of its horn and the shape of its frill. Ceratopsians might have broken down neatly into the categories now suggested by science or they could have been as widely divergent as dogs are today. They may have been sexually dimorphic and animals identified as belonging to another species may have only been sexually dimorphic or juvenile versions of other science-identified species.

“Chasmosaurus (/?kæzm??s?r?s/ KAZ-mo-SAWR-?s) is a genus of ceratopsid dinosaur from the Upper Cretaceous Period of North America. Its name means ‘opening lizard’, referring to the large openings (fenestrae) in its frill (Greek chasma meaning ‘opening’ or ‘hollow’ or ‘gulf’ and sauros meaning ‘lizard’). With a length of 4–5 metres (13–16 ft) and a weight of 2 tonnes (2.2 short tons), Chasmosaurus was a ceratopsian of average size. Like all ceratopsians, it was purely herbivorous. It was initially to be called Protorosaurus, but this name had been previously published for another animal.

All specimens of Chasmosaurus were collected from the Dinosaur Park Formation of the Dinosaur Provincial Park of Alberta, Canada. C. russelli comes from the lower beds of the formation while C. belli comes from middle and upper beds. “…Wikipedia


Let me explain what I believe that you’re looking at. It is a ceratopsian dinosaur similar to the Chasmosaurus. It is 500 years old. The right horn has broken off and is probably what is seen on the animal’s right side from the reader’s perspective.

The heavy ceratopsian tail curls up at the back and the animal fits in terms of body shape and tail for a ceratopsian. The animal has a crest and you should be able to see that the complete head, ending behind the horns includes a solid neck frill ending in a ‘V” shape similar to that of the chasmosaurus. In the photo on the left I have thoughtfully replaced the animals missing horn. The artist took pains to make sure that the ceratopsian toes were outlined for the viewer as well.

I believe what we have here is a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur that differs slightly from what one expects given modern depictions. The beak is slightly less pronounced-but evident. The horns are actually in the exact place on its head as the horns on modern Chasmosaurus depictions. The creature has growths (possibly pre-horn?) growths on the front of its face that are not seen on ceratopsian depictions.

This is clearly a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur by an actual eyewitness some 500 years ago in pre Columbian South America. It should be noted that all the ceratopsia were supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

2)Peabody Museum ”6,000 to 7,000 Year Old” Ceramic Bottle with Bi-Pedal Dinosaur (Iguanodon?) from South America

“Peabody Number: 90-27-30/54866
Display Title: Black ware stirrup spouted vase
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic bottle, stirrup spout, chipped rim, animal effigy, molded body, lying on its side.
Classification:
Stirrup spout
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru
Materials: Ceramic


The earliest ceramics known from the Americas have been found in the lower Amazon Basin. Ceramics from the Caverna de Pedra Pintada, near Santarém, Brazil, have been dated to 7,500 to 5,000 years ago. Ceramics from Taperinha, also near Santarém, have been dated to 7,000 to 6,000 years ago.” Peabody Museum

This appears to me quite clearly to represent some type of bi-pedal theropod dinosaur. Here we show the artifact on its side so that the identification of this dinosaur is more easily made.
The trio below is shown with two versions of the dinosaur iguanodon, a bi-pedal dinosaur which has been found in North America.

Distinctive features of iguanodon include large thumb spikes, which were possibly used for defence against predators, combined with long prehensile fifth fingers able to forage for food…Wikipedia.

Unfortunately that part of the sculpture has been worn away-like noses in Egyptian artifacts. Part of the tail has apparently broken off as well. I believe that this piece represents a bi pedal theropod dinosaur like iguanodon or a relative.

           

3)Postosuchus Sculpted by Pre Columbians From the Period AD 500-1350 at The Walters Art Museum?
The creature displayed at the top of the pre Columbian incense burner could be called a dragon, a crocodilian (the museum I.D.) or a mythical creature–but no one who believes that dinosaurs and their alleged ancestors died out more than 65 million years ago would ever think of this as a recently extinct, living creature.

Taking that point of view it is easy to ignore the reptilian/dinosaur like armor, the teeth which no lizard ever sported and the distinct horns. In looking at the creature carefully with the assumption that a living creature was being depicted a tentative crypto-zoo-archaeological identification is that of an archosaur like postosuchus.


Postosuchus, meaning “crocodile from Post”, is an extinct genus of rauisuchian reptiles…Postosuchus is a member of the clade Pseudosuchia, the lineage of archosaurs that includes modern crocodilians (the other main group of archosaurs is Avemetatarsalia, the lineage that includes non-avian dinosaurs and their descendants, birds). Its name refers to Post Quarry, a place in Texas where many fossils of the type species, P. kirkpatricki, were found…

Although the heavy build of the skeleton suggests that Postosuchus walked on all four limbs, the extreme shortness of the forelimbs relative to the hind limbs is a strong indication that Postosuchus was able to walk on two legs…Postosuchus possessed heterodonty dentition, which means each tooth was different in size and shape from the others.

A feature of the skull of postosuchus is a “crest” over each eye. Modern artists have had to decide how to draw or illustrate that skull feature and most have not significantly featured them. This piece from the Walters Art Museum has “eye crests” like those of postosuchus which are more clearly featured as crests above each eye.

In other pieces we’ve noted the three toes of a depiction which were similar to dinosaur toes. Postosuchus actually had a different manus and pes than did the dinosaurs. In the minds of scientists postosuchus and its relatives actually preceded the dinosaurs. Of course, most creationists believe that they lived at the same time.


The Museum Description: This incense burner is topped with the portrayal of a caiman or other member of the Crocodylidae family, one of the frequent animal spirit forms of Central American shamans. Its particularly aggressive stance may refer to the practitioner’s battle against supernatural forces.

Many such incense burners were found ritually broken on the slopes of a principal volcano on the island of Ometepe in Lake Nicaragua, the incense burner lid with its smoke issuing from the top mimicking an active volcano.


Among peoples from southern Nicaragua to Mesoamerica the earth was likened to the back of a crocodile floating in the primordial sea, its dorsal scutes being the volcanic north-south backbone that defines the continents of the Western Hemisphere. This incense burner, then, constitutes a profound ritual vessel pertaining to the transition from the natural to the supernatural realms and a symbolic model of the ancient Costa Rican world.


Uh, huh. That’s pretty complicated. Maybe it’s just a depiction of some exceptional local fauna of the time; an or perhaps a small dinosaur of unknown type. Certainly if this same depiction appeared on a site featuring artists renditions of dinosaurs this piece would not be out of place.

The photos above show comparisons of the ancient art work with modern depictions of postosuchus (without the strong “crests” and body armor and in comparison to the skull and the full skeleton of postosuchus. The comparisons appear to me to show a similarity of this depiction with that of one of the archosaurs–such as postosuchus. The feet are not those of a dinosaurs (many are three toed) but the feet of the animal depicted do correspond to that of our identification.

           

4)Nayarit Chinesco “Embryonic Dog” May Be Baby Sauropod


Nayarit is a state in western Mexico. The Nayarit culture from which this artifact comes is from the period 300 B.C. to 400 A.D.—or even older. This piece is said to represent an embryonic dog. Another identification would seem to be in order for this piece.

           
For one thing, dogs do not have necks this long. Here I’ve shown it in comparison to an animal that really did have such a long neck; the sauropod dinosaur.

Nayarit Chinesco Pottery Painted Embryonic Dog
Online Collections Auction
Auction date November 2012
Pre-Columbian, West Mexico, Ca. 300 BC to 200 AD.
Buff pottery, unique representation, elastic form.
Surface has traces of original polychrome color.
Provenance: Ex-Dr. R. Boyd Stifler, Vanderwagen NM.
Rare specimen Authenticity Guaranteed
Condition:Some wear to surface and with nice dendrite
deposits.”..Online Collections

Recently a sauropod embryo was found and the sauropod embryo depicted comes from the “Tiniest Giants: Discovering Dinosaur Eggs”.

Sauropods are supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

5)Ancient Pueblo Culture (1200 B.C.-1500 A.D.) Native Americans of What is Now Arizona Craft Dinosaur Named Aetosaur; Most of Whose Fossils Have Been Found in Arizona

           
Aetosaur Skeleton Top and Ancient Pueblo Artifact below.


“The Pueblo people are Native American people in the Southwestern United States comprising several different language groups and two major cultural divisions, one organized by matrilineal kinship systems and the other having a patrilineal system.

These determine the clan membership of children, and lines of inheritance and descent. Their traditional economy is based on agriculture and trade. At the time of Spanish encounter in the 16th century, they were living in villages that the Spanish called pueblos, meaning “towns””…Wikipedia

This piece comes from a 1936 expedition to the Hopi reservation and was determined to be from one of the Pueblo Native American cultures. It is described by the Peabody Museum as “zoomorphic”. Looking at a list of dinosaur fossils found in Arizona one can quickly see that there is a similarity between the archaeological piece and –the aetosaur. (Angle of aetosaur skeleton head adjusted for comparison purposes.)

“Aetosaurs order name Aetosauria from Greek, ????? (aetos, “eagle”) and ?????? (sauros, “lizard”)) are an extinct order of heavily armoured, medium- to large-sized Late Triassic herbivorous archosaurs. They have small heads, upturned snouts, erect limbs, and a body covered by plate-like scutes. All aetosaurs belong to the family Stagonolepididae.

Most fossils have been found from Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas…Wikipedia

.

Here is a sobering fact for those of us who can accept the fact that the ancient Pueblo people of Arizona actually saw and depicted an aetosaur which supposedly lived from 200 million years ago becoming extinct 65 million years or more ago;


“Since their armoured plates are often preserved and are abundant in certain localities, aetosaurs serve as important Late Triassic tetrapod index fossils. Many aetosaurs had wide geographic ranges, but their stratigraphic ranges were relatively short. Therefore, the presence of particular aetosaurs can accurately date a site that they are found in.”

You see the problem? Aetosaurs were roaming around the North American continent during the span of the Pueblo peoples; 1200 B.C. to 1500 A.D. and one of their artists memorialized the aetosaur in ceramic.

Peabody Number: 36-131-10/8060
Display Title: Zooomorphic black on white potsherd–animal form
Inventory Description: Ceramic, zoomorphic figurine, with tail, opened mouth, two feet, black painted design on back and sides
Classification: Figurine
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Pueblo
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arizona/Navajo County/Hopi Reservation/Antelope Mesa/Awatovi
Intrasite: Test 14
Geo-Locale: Antelope Mesa
Materials: Ceramic Pigment
Provenance: Dr. John Otis Brew (1936)
Provenance: Peabody Museum Expedition (1936)

           
6) Crested Hadrosaur Depiction by the Ancient Peoples of Costa Rica at the Peabody Museum. (Modern Artists May Need to Put Some Weight on the Bones of these Depictions)

Crested Dinosaurs are fairly easy to recognize. Most of the crested dinosaurs are from the Lambeosaurinae of the hadrosaur group. The hadrosaurs were also known as the duck billed dinosaurs.


This depiction forms the legs of an ancient pottery piece. The pot is from Costa Rica, Central America. The crests on the various types of lambosaurines differed in size and shape even among the same species and they likely differed due to age and due to sexual dimorphism.

The hadrosaurs depicted have relatively small, round crests. Here we compare them to a number of known lambeosaurines including corythsaurus.


It is interesting that the depictions are clearly of the same animal but that the portraits differ. The ancient depictions are similar to modern ones except for the apparent weight of the creatures and the size of the eyes depicted.

“Archaeologists now know that civilization existed in Costa Rica for thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus, and evidence of human occupation in the region dates back 10,000 years. Among the cultural mysteries left behind by the area’s pre-Columbian inhabitants are thousands of perfectly spherical granite bolas that have been found near the west coast.


The sizes of these inimitable relics range from that of a baseball to that of a Volkswagen bus. Ruins of a large, ancient city complete with aqueducts were recently found east of San Jose, and some marvelously sophisticated gold and jade work was being wrought in the southwest as far back as 1,000 years ago. Some archeological sites in the central highlands and Nicoya peninsula have shown evidence of influence from the Mexican Olmec and Nahuatl civilizations.

By the time Columbus arrived, there were four major indigenous tribes living in Costa Rica. The east coast was the realm of the Caribs, while the Borucas, Chibchas, and Diquis resided in the southwest. “..geographia.com

Peabody Number: 26-44-20/C9956
Display Title: Small pottery vessel
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic complete tripod jar, zoomorphic rattle feet (1 missing)
Classification: Jar
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
Central America/Costa Rica

           

7)A New Look at Dicynodont Therapsids Like Moschop from the Ancient Peoples Living I Peru, South America


The identity of this animal portrait was unknown apparently and thus it was given the general description “animal effigy” by the Harvard Peabody Museum. Was this animal purely a mythological one seen only in the imaginary eye of the artist—or was it seen with the artist’s actual eyes?

As you will see the depiction of the living therapsid is actually close enough to modern depictions of these types of creatures as to be readily identified. In appearance it is close to that of therapsids such as moschops which we know from fossils found in South Africa.

‘Moschops (Greek for “calf face”) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Guadalupian epoch, around 268-260 million years ago. Therapsids are synapsids which were at one time the dominant land animals. It was around 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in) long..

….Moschops was heavily built, and had short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. Moschops mostly ate plants, but sometimes ate meat. The forelegs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind legs were under the body, like those of a mammal.” Wikipedia

Peabody Number: 46-77-30/5868
Display Title: Pottery animal figurine
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy
Classification: Whistle
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru/La Libertad Region///Sausal
Materials: Ceramic


Here we show the ancient, ceramic artifact in comparison to moschop and to another dicynodont therapsid. Moschops and therapsids similar to him supposedly went extinct before the dinosaurs even evolved. Clearly of this ancient Peruvian artifact represents one of these creatures something is extremely wrong with the evolutionary time scale.
           

8) Quapaw’s “Underwater Panther” from the 1500”s Could In Fact Be an Eyewitness Depiction of Dinosaur Such As Tenontosaurus


According to Wikipedia the Mississippian culture was a mound building group of indigenous people who lived in the Midwestern, Eastern, and Southeastern United States from approximately 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. The collectors at Artsmia.org believe it to be a depiction of a mythological creature called an underwater panther. That makes these people seem “mystical” all right.

But what if it is an accurate depiction of an animal living at the time that we would call a dinosaur-rendered somewhat invisible as a depiction because modern versions of the creature differ greatly? Here is the museum description:

“The prominent colored swirls and eye motifs mark this animal as an Underwater Panther, one of the primary beings in the ancient Mississippian belief system and that of their descendants. The swirling pattern on its sides signifies water, while the eye markings allude to the animal’s unusually keen vision.

Red and white were symbolically significant colors that represented fundamental oppositions such as peace and war, light and dark and the on-going struggle between the celestial and subterranean realms. Underwater Panthers belonged to the subterranean and possessed great supernatural power. Their significance led Mississippian and subsequent artists to depict them frequently in many forms and media, including three-dimensional sculptures like this vessel. “

The toes of this creature appear to be triple toed-similar to a dinosaur. Its tail is very thick in the way dinosaur tails are often illustrated by modern paleo artists. I took a look to see what types of dinosaur fossils were prominent with respect to quadruped dinosaurs in those parts of the United States.


Here we show the “underwater panther” in comparison to tenontosaurus a genus of medium to large ornnithopod dinosaurs. It should be noted that there were a number of ornnithopod dinosaurs found to have lived in those parts of north America which would have had similar body shapes.

The genus tenontosaurus is known from the late Aptian to Albian ages of the middle Cretaceous period sediments of western North America, dating between 115 to 108 million years ago. It was formerly thought to be a ‘hypsilophodont’, but since Hypsilophodontia is no longer considered a clade, it is now considered to be a very primitive iguanodont.

The teeth of this portrait do give me pause. The point is however not that we know the specific type of dinosaur that was sculpted, but rather that it is more likely that it is a dinosaur being depicted here rather than an underwater panther (which itself sounds like a cryptid).

Vessel
Artist Unknown (Quapaw)
(United States, North America), c. 1500
Ceramic, pigment
9 1/8 x 10 3/8 x 5 1/4 in. (23.18 x 26.35 x 13.34 cm)
The William Hood Dunwoody Fund 2004.33

           

9)Metropolitan Museum of Asian Art’s Sauropod Dinosaur from Iran 250 B.C. to 225 A.D.


This artifact is from the Metropolitan Museum of Asian art and is labeled “zoomorphic”. I’m somewhat surprised that they didn’t call it a camel. Clearly however it is a sculpted ceramic in the form of a sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago according to science. This piece was estimated to have been made between 250 B.C. and 225 A.ZD. That period obviously covers the time of Christ.

Zoomorphic vessel
250 B.C.E.- 225 C.E.
Parthian period
Ceramic
H: 15.2 W: 28.4 D: 12.1 cm
Northern Iran, Northern Iran S1987.944

           

10) Ulisse Aldrovandi’s Detailed Drawing of A Long Tailed Pterosaur; Before They Were “Discovered” By Science

Ulisse Aldrovandi (also Aldrovandus) was born in 1522 and died in 1605. He is sometimes referred to as the father of natural history studies. By profession he was a professor of philosophy but eventually became one of the first professors of the natural sciences at Bologna (no offense intended).


Ulisse died 250 years before the first pterosaur was discovered by a scientist and he mistakenly thought it was a sea going creature. It was not until the beginning of the 19th century that science realized that pterosaurs were flying creatures.

“The first pterosaur fossil was described by the Italian naturalist Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini misinterpreted his specimen as a seagoing creature that used its long front limbs as paddles.

A few scientists continued to support the aquatic interpretation even until 1830, when the German zoologist Johann Georg Wagler suggested that Pterodactylus used its wings as flippers. Georges Cuvier first suggested that pterosaurs were flying creatures in 1801, and coined the name “Ptero-dactyle” in 1809 for the specimen recovered in Germany.” …Wikipedia

After his death his book Serpentum, et draconum historiæ Serpentum, et Draconum was published. In it, was a drawing supposedly from life (well it was dead!) of a dragon which comports very well with a long tailed, crested pterosaur especially given that Aldrovandi was a philosopher and naturalist –and not an artist.

The interesting thing about Aldrovandi’s pterosaur is that it has the crest of the pteranodon and the tail of one of the long tailed rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Although we don’t know this exact pterosaur from science it closely matches modern day eyewitness descriptions and drawings of a long tailed pterosaur. (There are long tail crested pterosaurs known to science but none with the classic bone sticking out the back of its head kind).

Note what might look like another set of small wings at the legs of Aldrovandi’s dragon. It is shown here in the more modern drawing between the pteranodon’s legs. That is called the uropatagium; and since it does not appear on birds it is one indication that Aldrovandi actually saw what he drew.

“some pterosaur groups had a membrane that stretched between the legs, possibly connecting to or incorporating the tail, called the uropatagium; the extent of this membrane isn’t certain, as studies on Sordes seem to suggest that it simply connected the legs but did not involve the tail (rendering it a cruropatagium). It is generally agreed though that non-pterodactyloid pterosaurs had a broader uro/cruropatagium, with pterodactyloids only having membranes running along the legs; Pteranodon in particular might have developed/redeveloped an uropatagium, given the structure of the tail”..Wikipedia

The picture on the right (above) shows Aldrovandi’s dragon compared to Eskin Kuhn’s drawing (bottom, right) from his eyewitness sighting in the 1970’s. Kuhn was an artist and a soldier stationed at Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. His “pteranodon” had both the backwards facing “crest” and the long tail with tail vain of the rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Top right is a modern drawing of a pteranodon without the long tail. Aldrovandi has the tail, crest and bat like wings of a pterosaur.
           

11) Peabody Museum Seeks to Make an Ancient Veraguas Culture Dinosaur Evolve Into a Bird Right Before Our Eyes

The “Bird” effigy ceramic whistle (middle) is from the ancient Veraguas Culture of Panama. That culture inhabited Panama from approximately 700 A.D. to 1530 A.D.

“This culture inhabited the central region of what is now province of Veraguás in Panama. The area extends from the Pacific to the Caribbean coast and includes a number of islands. The climate here is mainly humid and tropical, and the landscape includes wooded areas and valleys suitable for agriculture, as well as high mountains, hilly areas, and coastal lowlands.” Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino


The ceramic sculpture with three legs does not have the correct number for either the bird (two) or the crested hadrosaur (four). My take is that given the teeth (which birds do not have) and the thick tail this is not a depiction of a bird but rather of a crested hadrosaur such as corythosaurus.

The single combined front legs represent the two front legs of the creature and this is not uncommon with pre Columbian art. One can certainly decide for his or her self.

Peabody Number: 39-90-20/6461
Display Title: Pottery bird effigy whistle. Light brown, probably faded from red.
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy with tripod legs
Classification: Ceramic
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Veraguas
Geography/Provenience: Central America/Panama/Veraguas

           

12)Plesiosaur or Dinosaur? Mythological or Cryptozoological?


Here are a number of ancient artifacts that do beg the question; sea monster or dinosaur. It may not be clear what animal the artist has in mind but I believe that they so clearly mirror what modern day artists see as dinosaurs and marine reptiles that they simply cannot be imaginary creatures.

The ancient artist in each case intended to represent an actual living creature and they must have expected the beholder to recognize what the creature was as well. In each of these examples only a portion of the animal is sculpted making the crypto detective work more difficult.

In situations like these the museum or the auction house usually leaves this kind of speculation to the viewer but often uses the term “zoomorphic” as the description. Often as well they will name a creature for which if it were truly what the ancient artist intended he/she would have proven to be a terrible artist. That should drive down prices!

Christie’s auction house described this artifact as a horse which may seem reasonable at first but no horse would have that long a neck. Alternative identifications include the plesiosaur or a dinosaur. Plesiosaurs of course supposedly went extinct around 65 million years ago as did it is claimed, the dinosaur.

The artifact is thought to have come from the period of up to 1,000 Years before Christ.

Christie’s
• Overview
• Features
Lot Description
ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TERRACOTTA ZOOMORPHIC RHYTON
CIRCA LATE 1ST MILLENNIUM B.C.

One in the form of a seated camel, black glazed, carrying two jars on either side of its back; another in the form of a horse, a strap handle joining the rim to the back of the vessel, a perforation at the top of the head forming the spout, 16 cm. high max.; an Amlash terracotta steatopygous idol, possibly 2nd Millenium B.C., 20.5 cm. high, mounted (repaired); and a bull rhyton, not ancient, 15 cm. high (4)

This item is described as a “serpent” effigy bowl; perhaps a “sea serpent”?


This pottery piece has been categorized as Neeley’s Ferry which are artifacts of one of the ancient group of State of Arkansas cultures. Ancient peoples are thought to have lived in Arkansas between 600 B.C. and 1600 A.D.

The Peabody specifically dated the artifact between 1350 and 1550.

This piece is further described as an earthen bowl, animal. The animal has a head with teeth giving the appearance of either a sea creature with long winding tail or perhaps a dinosaur.


Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21621
Display Title: Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl head and tail start on body & on short axis
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic, complete vessel, bowl, mended, serpent head and tail
Object Description: Earthen bowl, animal. Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl, head and tail start on body, tail turned on itself, head and tail on short axis.
Classification: Bowl
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Halcomb’s Mounds; Arkansas State Intrasite: Grave, 18 inches deep; 2 feet from river

Above shows our “sea monster” at another angle which provides additional detail concerning the shape of the head and tail. By the way, seals have fins and flippers not “tails”.

This final piece is also from the Neeley’s Ferry mounds and is described as a “ceramic effigy vessel of zoomorphic design”.


This artifact was found in a gravesite buried three feet below ground level and has been dated from the period between 1350-1550.

As you can see it is very reminiscent of modern paleoartist’s depiction of theropod or meat eating dinosaurs. Of course, we only have the head but is it possible that the artist saw and knew about a then living version of such a creature?

Or is it more believable that this is an effigy of a mythological animal which accidently reminds us of modern ideas about how dinosaurs looked?

Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21195
Display Title: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomorphic design
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomophic design
Classification: Effigy
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience:North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Neeley’s Ferry Mounds; Arkansas State # 3CS24
Intrasite: Grave, 3 feet deep Geo-Locale: Saint Francis River, West side of
Materials: Ceramic
Collector: Edwin Curtiss (01/01/1880)

           

Bonus: Nicoya, Pre Columbian Incense Burner Maker Tops Reptilian Artifact with Feet of a Theropod Dinosaur Which is Quite A Feat for Someone Who Missed Dinosaurs by 65M Years



Top left is a pre Columbian Censer (Incensario), from the 10th–12th century. There are many examples of this type of pre Columbian censer topped by a dragon/dinosaur. The excellent example at the top left is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you take the time you can see the full body of a quadruped, dinosaur like creature with an extremely ornate crest or horns. This is typical of these artifacts.

No matter how un crocodile like the animal perched at the top is this type of vessel is known as either alligator or crocodile ware and elaborate stories have been concocted by archaeologists about the sacred nature of crocodiles and alligators in the pre Columbian cultures. Here’s a quote describing the object, top left by the Met.

The flare-footed, spherical bowl of this ceramic censer is enhanced, in silhouette, by the flamboyance of its chimney. Textured, appliqué bands encircle and emphasize the tall smoothness of the chimney. On the perforated cap rests an elaborate crested crocodilian. Smoke from the incense that was burned in the bowl escaped through the holes of the cap and from openings in the animal’s body. The rhythmical texture of the appliqué visually unites it with the surface of the creature’s body where the nubby portions are taken to represent the scutes of the reptile.

Both textured appliqués and scutes are surfaced in white. The spiky crest that surrounds the head is customarily found in incensarios of this period. Crocodilians frequently appear in Costa Rican art, strongly suggesting the supernatural import of these creatures in ancient times…The Met

On the Top right is a photo of one of those pre Columbian artifacts, Nicoya, an incense burner.
what is interesting about the artifact on the top, right is that a close up of the animals feet (bottom left) reveal and striking similarity of its feet as sculpted to that of the theropod dinsoaurs (bottom, right) and unlike those of lizards-or crocodiles.

           

Conclusion: There are hundreds if not thousands of artifacts in museums around the world containing representations of extinct creatures that we now called dinosaurs. The most obvious examples are labeled as fakes and are in provide collections.

Those that are not obvious dinosaurs are labeled dragons, unknown, zoomorphic, mythological, animal etc. Of course many artifacts are just those things. The issue is that when a group (archaeologists) are absolutely convinced that these animals lived millions of years ago all evidence will be viewed to reflect that belief and those that don’t will be reinterpreted, labeled or hidden away.

In any case if you should find that even one of the items in our collection is a dinosaur-or that a dinosaur is the most likely explanation that one should be enough to make you question the current scientific history control. But we understand that bucking the system is difficult to do.

Since I began with a quote from the Princess Bride it might be appropriate to finish with a modified version of another such quote:

Big Science: We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. (not actually a believer)
Believer: You mean, you’ll put down your rock and I’ll put down my sword, and we’ll try to convince each other like civilized people-with facts and evidence?
Big Science; [brandishing rock (public opinion, science mythology, ridicule] I could just wipe you out now.
Believer: Frankly, I think the odds are slightly in your favor at hand fighting.
Big Science: It’s not my fault being the biggest and the strongest. I don’t even exercise.

Despite Coelacanth Does the Evolutionary Dogma Re Man and Dinosaur Remain Unshaken?
Or, Do Those Dogon Antique Dinosaurs of West Africa Prove Science is Myth-Staken

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 13 2013


Photo:Antique Dogon People’s Sculpture at the Metropolitan Museum of Art;Details and ID comparisons below.

The coelacanth is a species of fish which had been thought by evolutionists to have evolved 400 million years ago (before the dinosaurs) and to have become extinct 80 million years ago. That was until living specimens began to be found in 1938.

Question; what percentage wrong were evolutionary scientists about Coelacanth? I mean if you believed that they were a magical fish that would take you direct to Atlantis-on their backs if you said the secret word, you would be wrong- but really not that much more wrong than evolutionists had been. They believed up until 1938 that coelacanth walked on the sea bed using its two pairs of double fins, and that it represented a transitional form between land and sea creatures.

Shockingly for some, the living coelacanths discovered then and since look just like their fossils. Thus, evolutionists who discovered that they were off 80 million years in terms of extinction had to face the prospect of also being off 400 million years in terms of evolution. In 1938 it became known that there were no coelacanth experts but in a way one could understand their mistake; the coelocanth is all pre-historicky looking.



Similarly, there are no dinosaur experts either. No one really knows what they looked like. Many if not most ideas about them have already been proved wrong or have experienced “turbulence”. Species and types merge and disappear or are it almost seems randomly moved over to another tree or up and down said evolutionary tree.

Are they warm blooded or cold blooded? Covered with feathers? Last year science suggested that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by 33% to 50%. A number of species of dinosaurs completely disappeared last year when it was decided that some individuals were merely juvenile versions of another type of dinosaur.

Paleontologists are famous for naming essentially the same dinosaur found in various locales and respective continents the ME-o-saurus (“ME” being the name of each discoverer). Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago but I’m afraid that the historical data tells us otherwise. We’ll take a quick peek at a few artifacts from West Africa (some previously seen here) to see if its credible to believe that man and dinosaur never coexisted.

The Dogon Peoples

“The Bandiagara Cliffs The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of the country of Mali, in the West of the Continent of Africa, south of the Niger bend, near the city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. The population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000[1] The Dogon are best known for their religious traditions, their mask dances, wooden sculpture and their architecture…….


The principal Dogon area is bisected by the Bandiagara Escarpment, a sandstone cliff of up to 500m (1,640 ft) high, stretching about 150 km (90 miles). To the southeast of the cliff, the sandy Séno-Gondo Plains are found, and northwest of the cliff are the Bandiagara Highlands. Historically, Dogon villages were established in the Bandiagara area in consequence of the Dogon people’s collective refusal to convert to Islam a thousand years ago.

Dogon insecurity in the face of these historical pressures caused them to locate their villages in defensible positions along the walls of the escarpment. The other factor influencing their choice of settlement location is water. The Niger River is nearby and in the sandstone rock, a rivulet runs at the foot of the cliff at the lowest point of the area during the wet season.


Dogon art is primarily sculpture. Dogon art revolves around religious values, ideals, and freedoms (Laude, 19). Dogon sculptures are not made to be seen publicly, and are commonly hidden from the public eye within the houses of families, sanctuaries, or kept with the Hogon (Laude, 20). The importance of secrecy is due to the symbolic meaning behind the pieces and the process by which they are made.

Themes found throughout Dogon sculpture consist of figures with raised arms, superimposed bearded figures, horsemen, stools with caryatids, women with children, figures covering their faces, women grinding pearl millet, women bearing vessels on their heads, donkeys bearing cups, musicians, dogs, quadruped-shaped troughs or benches, figures bending from the waist, mirror-images, aproned figures, and standing figures (Laude, 46-52). Signs of other contacts and origins are evident in Dogon art. The Dogon people were not the first inhabitants of the cliffs of Bandiagara. Influence from Tellem art is evident in Dogon art because of its rectilinear designs (Laude, 24).”..Wikipedia

Dogon Zoomorphic Head


Time Period’ 1800-early 1900’s. The Dogon Peoples. Mali Dimensions:
H x W: 8 x 1in. (20.3 x 2.5cm) Wood and Iron
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Bryce Holcombe Collection of African Decorative Art, Bequest of Bryce Holcombe, 1984

The item is described as “zoomorphic. It is an animal or animal like, but the museum is not able or ready to make an identification. They may consider it to be a mythological creature. In our view it closely matches the current view of the appearance of the crested, duck billed dinosaurs-the lambeosaurines although few if any hadrosaur fossils have been found in West Africa.

Here we show the sculpture in comparison to one of the crested hadrosaurine dinosaurs, hypacrosaurus.


Hypacrosaurus was a genus of duckbill dinosaur similar in appearance to Corythosaurus. Like Corythosaurus, it had a tall, hollow rounded crest, although not as large and straight. It is known from the remains of two species that spanned 75 to 67 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of Alberta, Canada, and Montana, USA, and is the latest hollow-crested duckbill known from good remains in North America. It was an obscure genus until the description of nests, eggs, and hatchlings belonging to H. stebingeri in the 1990s.

It is not our intent to claim that this traditional Dogon sculpture represents hypacrosaurus, merely that it likely represents one of the closely related lambeosauine, crested, duckbilled dinosaurs. The specific type may have yet to be discovered. There are alternate suggestions for this piece of sculpture including a crested duck but we think that it very closely resembles a dinosaur that was thought by science to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

500 Year Old Dogon Bipedal Statue


The Dogon peoples have become somewhat of the darlings of individuals around the world who believe that ancient technological prowess which is an enigma can best be explained by the belief that in the distant past the earth was visited by advanced aliens who imparted their knowledge to humans in some fashion. There are real archaeological anomalies out there and if one doesn’t have a Genesis/biblical system of belief it easy to see why many would find the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain them insufficient and why they would construct alternate theories do deal with them.

“Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938 and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen’s future publications.

They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or ‘star of the Sigui’, has two companion stars, p tolo (the Digitaria star), and mm ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following

remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.

In 1976 Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery arguing that the Dogon’s system reveals precise knowledge of cosmological facts only known by the development of modern astronomy, since they appear to know, from Griaule and Dieterlen’s account, that Sirius was part of a binary star system, whose second star, Sirius B, a white dwarf, was however completely invisible to the human eye, (just as Digitaria is the smallest grain[clarification needed] known to the Dogon), and that it took 50 years to complete its orbit. The existence of Sirius B had only been inferred to exist through mathematical calculations undertaken by Friedrich Bessel in 1844. Temple then argued that the Dogon’s information, if traced back to ancient Egyptian sources and myth, indicated an extraterrestrial transmission of knowledge of the stars. Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen had ever made such bold claims about a putative esoteric source for the Dogon’s knowledge.”…Wikipedia


I mention the foregoing because this little 500 year old Dogon metal statue has been swept up into this alien story by calling it a Nommo, a kind of fish/amphibian god slash alien.

Its reptilian, its walking in a bipedal fashion and its strange looking. For purposes of the alien scenario it fits in nicely-if you ignore the fact that it looks quite a bit like a terrestrial animal we know well.

From the Genesis creation account perspective, however it clearly fits as a creation of the first six days; a bipedal dinosaur.

Here we compare it with a more or less random, carnivorous, three toed, bipedal dinosaur.

Which is it”, then an alien fish/amphibian god representative –or an indication that the Dogon peoples of West Africa interacted with, carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs within the last 1,000 years?

Mystery of the African (Dogon) Ornithopod Dinosaur

Around the time Sir Richard Owen had coined the term “dinosaur” to describe the giant “terrible lizards” whose bones were then being discovered in the mid-1800′s the Dogon tribe was creating art which appears to represent one of them riding one of those creatures.



Features of the “dinosaur” are accurate enough for a species identification to be made. An Ornithopod dinosaur, in our humble opinion.

The birdlike head with strong jawline, “duck bill”; and the knees appearing to bend in the “wrong” direction (opposite ours) separate this dinosaur from the sauropods.

In actuality the front legs do bend in the opposite direction, but it the high ankles of these creatures which make it appear that the rear legs also bend in the forward direction.

Examples of the Ornithopod dinosaur depicted include; iguanadon and hadrosaurus as shown below. Note also the accuracy of this African depiction compared to early “scientific” depictions.

It’s interesting to note that the gallery showing this piece claims that this is dinosaur, from the mid-1800′s and that they can authenticate its age and origin. If you’ve got a spare $1,200, pick it up and send us a photo of the other side of the piece.

Antique African bronze dinosaur



Dogon Tribe African bronze vessel in the form of dinosaur, with the lid, on the lid a seated human figurine, the body of the vessel with linear scarifications, long tail. Covered in a light earthen patina. Antique African artifact 1800′s AD. This antique African artifact comes with a certificate of authenticity and time period.
All ancient artifacts and antiques, ancient jewelry, ancient statues, etc. are guaranteed to be authentic and from the time period stated.

All artifacts come with a certificate of authenticity and time period. We specialize in antiquities located in our online Treasures of the World gallery at World Wide Store.

View our ancient artifacts list view or aisles for other extraordinary artifacts. Also see other categories, Ancient artifacts Byzantine, Celtic, Cycladic, Egyptian, European, Greek, Holy land, Luristan, Mesopotamian, Persian, Roman, Syrian, African artifacts, Maya, and Prehistoric artifacts.

Many artifacts are rare and date back as far as 3000 BC. All artifacts are guaranteed to be authentic. Artifacts are one of a kind. If the item you want has already sold we may have something similar available.
Antique African bronze dinosaur
1800′s AD
measures: 14″ x 7 1/2″ $1200.00…..Treasures of the World”

Photo:Artifact with Iguanadon middle, and hadrosaurus, bottom.


When we discovered this artifact online, it had already been purchased by our friend Vance Nelson at CreationTruthMinistries.org. He currently has it in his possession and this new photo is Copyright CreationTruthMinistries.

Looking at the piece again we were struck by how detailed it actually is; the “skin” of the “dinosaur” could also provide evidence that the artist actually saw a living version of the creature at a time scientific depictions of dinosaurs were still “primitive”.

Note the diamond shapes that cover the entire creature. Does that feature match up with any modern dinosaur discoveries we wondered; remembering that we thought the artifact represented an Ornithopod dinosaur.

Hadrosaur Skeleton Found

“The hadrosaur skeleton itself which includes parts of the hip, a femur, part of a foot, and a 10-foot section of tail that is missing its tip is already an uncommon discovery because it is the most complete dinosaur skeleton, and the first crested hadrosaur, ever discovered in southern Utah’s Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, says Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist with the monument. Geology and paleontology were part of the reason this monument was established, Titus says.

This specimen is also special because many of the skin impressions were found in direct contact with the bone, so scientists can place with confidence the different scale patterns on particular parts of the dinosaur, Titus adds.

The specimen has two distinct skin patterns, says David Gillette, the dig’s lead scientist and a curator of the Museum of Northern Arizona. A diamond-shaped pattern was found near the tail’s tip, he says, while a more irregular and polygonal pattern was uncovered closer to the hip”….Geotimes, oct 2001

Other West African Dinosaurs and Supposedly Extinct Animals

The West African area seems to have been a hotbed of ancient dinosaur activity. In addition to the Dogon of Mali, items from the nearby Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Niger, the Sudan, Chad and Cameroon, most of which are not included in this article abound.

Not Just Dinosaurs; the Ancient West African’s Clearly “Interacted” with “Extinct” Elephant: Did Platybelodon Become Extinct Between 5 Million and 25 Million Years Ago-Or Did He Live in the Recent Past?


If dogs had become extinct 400 to 500 years ago, evolutionists probably would have created an elaborate family tree and asserted that the various types had evolved over millions of years. Maybe the Pekinese, Chihuahuas and Boxers would have been selected as the older more primitive dogs who would later, in this evolutionary scenario have evolved into the physically larger more gracile forms such as the Collie, the German Shepherd, the Greyhound and the Whippet. No doubt the wolf and other dog breeds would be in the middle branches somewhere.

Evolutionists see the animal tree as essentially a vertical one where millions of years are needed for creatures to evolve from one form to another. Creationists believe that the relationship between animals is horizontal with all forms living at the same time and/or genetic variations of the same type separated by time or distance. The polar bear and the brown bear are still bears, who exhibit their built in genetic variation.

The elephant as we know him is supposed to have evolved from more primitive forms of the order Proboscidea. One such “primitive” alleged elephant was Platybelodon, supposedly extinct before the evolution of modern man. But hey, why is one perched on top of this ancient Sudanese hat? (Fossils of platybelodon have also been found on the continent of Africa.)

“Platybelodon (“flat-tusk”) was a genus of large herbivorous mammal related to the elephant (order Proboscidea).
It lived during the Miocene Epoch, about 15-4 million years ago. Although it thrived during its time, it did not survive past the Miocene and is now extinct.

Some have speculated that it became too specialized and was unable to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Platybelodon was previously believed to have fed in the swampy areas of grassy savannas using its teeth to shovel up aquatic and semi-aquatic vegetation.

Photo, right: The animal displayed on the top of the Antique Sudanese “Hat” is compared with modern depictions of platybelodon.


However, wear patterns on the teeth suggest that it used its lower tusks to strip bark from trees. Platybelodon was very similar to the Amebelodon, another gomphothere species.

Another possibility is that it used its shovel-tusks to dig for water in dry seasons.
Due to the shape of the two lower teeth, which are worn by many gomphothere species (such as Platybelodon and Amebelodon) they are popularly known as shovel tuskers”….Wikipedia

Habitat
Platybelodon lived in wet parts of prairies and ate soft plants (including water plants).
When Platybelodon Lived
This prehistoric elephant lived during the middle to late Miocene (roughly 25 million years ago).
Classification
Platybelodon was an early mammal. Class Mammalia (mammals), Order Proboscidea, Suborder Elephantoidea (elephants), Family Gomphothere (closely related to Amebelodon), Genus Platybelodon.
Fossils
Fossils of Platybelodon have been found in North America, eastern Europe, Africa, and northwestern China (these animals probably crossed via the Siberian land bridge between the continents of Asia and North America)”….Enchanted Learning.com

  

Baule Ancient Dinosaur from Ivory Coast? BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Price Realized $7,500
Estimate
$3,000 – $4,000
Sale Information
Sale 2661
Arts of Africa, Oceania and the Americas including Property from the Estate of Ernst Beyeler
10 May 2012
New York, Rockefeller Plaza
TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York, The African-American Institute
1978
Lot Description
BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Length: 44½ in. (113 cm.)

This item is compared to a mid-sized quadrupedal dinosaur. This piece has four legs so it is not a bird. Morphologically it is quite similar to this dinosaur depiction. It does not appear to be a lizard.


“The Baule belong to the Akan peoples who inhabit Ghana and Côte d’Ivoire. Three hundred years ago the Baule people migrated westward from Ghana when the Asante rose to power. The tale of how they broke away from the Asante has been preserved in their oral traditions.

During the Asante rise to power the Baule queen, Aura Poku, was in direct competition with the current Asante king. When the Asante prevailed, the queen led her people away to the land they now occupy. The male descendant of Aura Poku still lives in the palace she established and is honored by the Baule as their nominal king.” Arts of Africa

  

An Assembly of Various Allegedly “Extinct for Millions of Years Creatures” In Traditional Upper Volta Sculpture


TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York
The African-American Institute
1978
26 x 21 cm

This antique sculpture from the Upper Volta region (now called Burkina Faso) appears to represent several creatures thought to have been extinct for millions of years. The quadrupeds have horned faces as do the ceratopsian dinosaurs and the bipedal, non human, winged creatures appear to represent several types of pterosaurs.

Both pterosaurs and birds have keeled breastbones but it is especially noticeable on this antique sculpture.

Conclusion:

These are just a few examples of art and artifacts from Western Africa which indicate a familiarity with various types of extinct dinosaurs and other creatures. Can some of them be explained away?

Perhaps.

Can all of them be explained away as mythological or fake? I don’t think so. We’ve encountered hundreds of examples of ancient or antique artifacts that we think prove that just as science was wrong with respect to the ceolocanth by 80,000,000 years (with no evolutionary changes in 400,000,000 evolution years) it is certainly possible that they are also wrong about the evolution of and extinction of the dinosaurs.

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2- Exit the Dragon; Enter the Dinosaur. Why Dinosaurs are Not Extinct-In Ancient Art Museums Around the World

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 09 2012


Story Below–Photo: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum-

“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

by Chris Parker Copyright July 2012 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Part II Prologue

Return to PART I

“One thing on which both creationists and evolutionists agree is that dinosaurs make marvelous teaching tools. Rare is the adult—and even more rare is the child—who does not have a keen interest in dinosaurs.

These magnificent beasts with the polysyllabic names capture our attention as we fixate on their massive size, their lizard-like skin, or the terror they were apparently able to create as they roamed the Earth. From kindergarten through graduate school, dinosaurs often are used as a tool to indoctrinate students regarding the “fact” of organic evolution.

In most public school, college, and university settings, when dinosaurs are discussed, it is in the context of their evolutionary origin, development, and extinction. Students are told that these wondrous animals evolved from some ancient reptile into what we now know as birds. In such a setting, it is commonplace to use the dinosaurs to instruct simultaneously on the ancient nature of the Earth and/or Universe.” ..www.apologeticspress.org/

Christians and other man/dinosaur believers often haven’t organized their pro dinosaur and man beliefs, explanations and/or theories in such a way as to affirmatively deal with the current scientific paradigm’s onslaught. There is an impressive amount of intellectual firepower directed against anyone who would believe in the historical coexistence of man and dragon/dinosaur. So much so that going up against it is a true David vs Goliath struggle.

There is however, ample evidence in the art and history of ancient civilizations that support the truth which most people are ignorant of. It’s helpful to remember that David won his struggle and Goliath lost his head.

Enter the Dinosaur

Last month, (June 2012) a study whose results were published in the journal Nature suggests that despite long held scientific belief to the contrary, dinosaurs were warm blooded. “Researchers in Spain and Norway reported that they had found tree-like growth rings on the bones of mammals, a feature that until now was thought to be limited to cold-blooded creatures”.

They also found that dinosaurs must have had a high metabolic rate in order to grow to their sometimes great size. Dinosaurs are thought to be reptiles and; reptiles by definition are cold-blooded.

In the July 2010 issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology John Scannella and Jack Horner of the Museum of the Rockies published a study that did away with Triceratops, Draconex, Stygimoloch, and nanotyrannus, describing them as simply juvenile versions of Torosaurus, Pachycephalosaurs and tyrannosaurus whose skulls have simply changed as they aged.

As we mentioned in Part 1 of this article, a June 2009 article in LiveScience indicated that scientists had overestimated the weight and size of dinosaurs by as much as 1/2 to 1/3. As an example an Apatosaurus previously thought to weigh 42 tons is now thought to have weighed “only” 20 tons.

A Discover Magazine article in 2000 confirms that much of what we think dinosaurs looked like is pure speculation on the part of illustrators and paleontologists. No one is really sure what they looked like.

Guess what? If you don’t know anything about dinosaurs you’re practically an expert. This lack of real knowledge about dinosaurs is important as we evaluate the evidence for or against dinosaur depictions in the art of ancient peoples.

Exit the Dragon

Photo: Darwin Hunts Dinosaur from the Time of Christ-to the Death? Palestrina Mosaic Dinosaur

As a self described cryptozooarchaeologist, I have to admit that I am not out standing in my field. In fact, the evidence I search for is not out in the fields. Rather it is in old books, museum collections, libraries and in internet museum databases. I’ll continue to provide some evidence here in Part 2 of this article that; dinosaurs and man lived contemporaneously, that this evidence exists in the art and history of most ancient cultures, and that modern science has hidden or ignored this evidence in a number of both overt and covert ways.

Prior to 1841 when Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosauria” to describe a class of gigantic, reptile-like animals whose fossils were then being discovered and classified every culture had a name for these animals. The Bible and other historical texts and authors called them dragons (or their own local words). When Darwin published the “Origin of the Species” in 1859 he of course had no idea that the actual or virtual extinction of these animals would be used as one of the major standard bearers of the organic evolution theory.

However, the art and artifacts of ancient people proves that as late as the publication of his book other cultures were still recording evidence of the existence of these animals in their times. The accompanying graphic shows Darwin hunting a dinosaur that must have existed at the time of Christ; a dinosaur lifted from the 1st century Roman Mosaic known as the Palestrina Mosaic.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part II

PART 1 of THIS ARTICLE

If one looks at the art and artifacts particularly from China and from South America, their artifacts and arts are literally permeated with depictions of “dragons” and serpents. This is true of other ancient cultures but it is especially noteworthy in these two geo cultural locations. In Part 1 we dealt mostly with dragons/dinosaurs from Asia. I want to transition from Asia to the Americas in Part II of this article but it is appropriate to begin in Asia. Here are three (out of many) dragon depictions from Asia that in fact possibly depict dinosaurs.

Ancient Chinese Bipedal Dragon from the Shanghai Museum

In October of 2010 the Museo del Oro del Banco de la Republica in Bogata, Columbia held a temporary exhibition of Chinese art from the Shanghai Museum entitled: Emperial Dragons from the Collection of the Shanghai Museum”. The exhibition contained 300 works of art related to dragon imagery representing a period it was said of over 5,000 years.

The painting at the top of this article and reproduced here was a part of that collection. The description of the work is: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.”

It is a beautiful piece that features a perhaps “typical” Chinese dragon, a landscape and some men described as “holy”. There are however, several very interesting things about this particular dragon. For one thing, it appears to be bipedal. Now how or why would the Chinese depict a mythical dragon as bipedal? There were in fact many bipedal dinosaurs but science tells us that they all became extinct more than 65 million years ago.

At the very least it’s a big coincidence that artists living three to four thousand years ago would conceive of a four legged, bipedal dragon without ever having seen a four legged, bipedal dinosaur.

Another curious thing about this “dragon” is that the artist for some reason has made it quite clear that this dragon has three clawed “hands” as well as three clawed feet. I have a high resolution version of this piece of art and the claws are distinctive. The final thing of note is that this dragon has a head crest.

I made the point in Part 1 that it is curious that virtually every ancient culture depicted dragons; reptilian, dangerous, large creatures which arguably also fits the description of dinosaurs that they supposedly never saw. I wondered if a crested, bipedal, dinosaur fossil had ever been discovered in China, so I Googled it. I went to images. Google Dinosaur Images

Literally, the first dinosaur that appeared on Google with that description was the Guanlong dinosaur.

This is how Wikipedia described that supposedly millions of years gone dinosaur:


“About 3.0 metres (9.8 ft) long,[1] its fossils were found in the Shishugou Formation dating to about 160 million years ago, in the Oxfordian stage of the Late Jurassic period, 92 million years before its well-known relative Tyrannosaurus.

This bipedal saurischian theropod shared many traits with its descendants, and also had some unusual ones, like a large crest on its head. Unlike later tyrannosaurs, Guanlong had three long fingers on its hands. Guanlong was discovered in the Dzungaria area of China by scientists from George Washington University, and named by Xu Xing in 2006. Guanlong comes from the Chinese words for “crown” and “dragon”, referring to the crest.” Wikipedia

In the graphic above are comparisons of Guanlong with our Han Dynasty “dragon depictions”. Turns out that in addition to being bipedal like our dragon, it had a headcrest and as it turns out, three fingers and three toes just like our dragon. Does this prove that the Han Dynasty depiction is of the Guanlong dinosaur? Not necessarily, but for those who believe that man and dinosaurs lived together this is exactly what one would expect.

It would be difficult for naysayers to explain why a dragon was depicted with morphological features exactly like that of an actual dinosaur who lived it that same geographical area-but science isn’t explaining, it is ignoring.

 

Neolithic Culture Cultural Jade

The object description: “These Photo Galleries were developed from our private collection acquired and privately kept in Hong Kong since 1979. They were uncovered from Neolithic ruins and found their way to the Hong Kong open market since the mainland economy began to open its doors to traders.


These Neolithic Cultural Jades differ from the traditionally collected “burial jades” from the traditional archeological burial sites of Hongshan and Liangchu, discovered in the 1920s and 1930s. Source


Here it is shown in comparison to Yangchuanosaurus. “Yangchuanosaurus is an extinct genus of metriacanthosaurid theropod dinosaur that lived in China during the late Oxfordian (and possibly Kimmeridgian) stage of the Late Jurassic, and was similar in size and appearance to its North American contemporary, Allosaurus.

It hails from the Upper Shaximiao Formation and was the largest predator in a landscape which included the sauropods Mamenchisaurus and Omeisaurus as well as the Stegosaurs Chialingosaurus, Tuojiangosaurus and Chungkingosaurus”…Wikipedia

 

A Pair of Western Han Dynasty Beaulieu Screens Copper Bracket

Descripton of the Artifact:

“Western Han Dynasty. Object is 33.5 cm high and 27.3cm long. The screens on both sides of the barrier under the bracket, the original gilt. Squat in the care seat Broom, proudly curved body Onchocerca, four feet on the synthesis by the two snakes structure on a bearing.

Volumes of the two snakes wrapped around a frog. Frog mouth violent head, trying to break free like. Longkou large sheet of mouth, a rim of the forelegs gripped Long, head stretched forward, as if to escape the invasion of the evil snake get the protection of the Dragon, serene state.


Dragon, snake, frog combination of the three together, is a highly plastic arts, the beauty of antiques. The snake, the frog was a totem of the ancient Yue people, the dragon is one of the four gods worshiped by the Central Plains, the snake wrapped around the frog, dragon stood on the snake to protect the frog tells the story of a legendary totem myths. Now in the possession: Guangzhou Xi Hannan Yue Museum.”


Keeping in mind the Prologue in which we mentioned that the size of many dinosaurs had been exaggerated shouldn’t a fair minded observer consider that this dragon is in fact a depiction of a living Chinese dinosaur during the Han Dynasty period? (206 B.C.–220 A.D.)

Here the Han Dynasty object is compared with Plateosaurus, Dinosaurs related to Plateosaurus have been found in South Africa, North America, and China. Note that Plateosaurus is not depicted with ears. Many ancient culture depictions of these creatures do show them with external ears. Modern science has drawn them as reptiles who often do not have external earflaps. However, as we noted in the Prologue, dinosaurs were probably warm-blooded and possibly not reptiles at all.

 

Dinosaur Depictions at the World’s Oldest Cities

If the Christian/creationist view concerning dinosaurs is correct, then dinosaurs were created by God less than 10,000 years ago and were contemporaneous with man from the beginning. If the evolutionary/current science paradigm is correct and dinosaurs became extinct 65,000,000 years ago, then no evidence of interaction between them should exist and the ubiquitous dragon of many ancient cultures is a mythological, unrelated phenomena.

Golbeki. “Now considered by some to be the oldest civilization in the world is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. “Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known man-made religious structure. The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site.

The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of manpower and labor……


Many of the pillars are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithic cave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.

…..Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic”. ….Wikipedia

Wikipedia notes that there were reliefs of “snakes and other reptiles” at Göbekli Tepe. Here are some of the raised reliefs that might indicate that there were “dinosaurs” at one of the oldest archaeological sites ever found.

Tiahuanico. But some say that mysterious Tiahuanico a seaport 2.5 miles above sea level high in the Andes mountains is the world’s oldest city.

“The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable. There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships.”


According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months. Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them.

Again, creationists might expect to discover some evidence that man had some interaction with dragons now called dinosaurs in ancient time and location. Of course, science would expect no such thing.

This ancient animal depiction is from Tihuanaco and is now housed at the National Archaeological Museum of Bolivia. Here is the official description:


A.D. 200-A.D. 1000
Gold Tiwanaku zoomorphic figurines

These dinosaurs appear to be quadruped carnivore’s although today we think of most carnivorous dinosaurs as having been bi-pedal. Some scientists have speculated that certain prosauropods were either carnivores or omnivores. In any case, here apparently is the view of an eyewitness.

 

The Pivot to South America

In 1973 the late Dr. Hendon Harris Jr. Wrote a book entitled ‘The Asiatic Fathers of America” that theorized based on certain ancient Chinese maps that seafaring Chinese reached the Americas repeatedly beginning around 2,200 B.C., and that those ancient Chinese were the ancestors of the “American Indians”.

“His proof centered on a world map he found in an old map book a year earlier in an antique shop in Korea.



Entitled “Everything under Heaven,” the ancient Chinese map not only showed known major land masses such as Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe, but located China’s fabled Fu Sang—literally “land to the east”—in the region we now know as North and South America”. Epoch Times…

This Colima Culture dragon reminds some of the Naga and other ancient Chinese dragon depictions (Below, right).


Other author’s and Academics have pointed to other evidence of the Ancient Chinese in the Americas including speculation that the ancient, Pre Hispanic and advanced Olmec culture was founded by the Chinese.

One thing is certain, both cultures in the form of their arts certainly showed a strong cultural interest in dragons/slash dinosaurs.


Acambaro Figurines. In 1944 Waldemar Julsrud, a hardware salesman spotted some curious ceramics sticking out of the ground near Acambaro, Mexico on El Toro Mountain.

After examining them, he concluded that they were from an unknown culture. Back in 1923 Julsrud had been the co-discoverer along with Padre Fray Jose Marie Martinez of what came to be known as the Chupicauro culture at an archaeological site only eight miles from El Toro. His discovery of the Chupicauro culture and artifacts which scientists came to believe flourished from 500 B.C. to 500A.D. still stands.

Julsrud paid a local farmer a peso a piece for any whole artifacts that were found at this new location near Acambaro and eventually amassed a collection of over 20,000 unique artifacts which included dinosaurs, Asians, Africans, bearded Caucasians, Polynesians, Egyptian and Sumerian objects and many others. The non-dinosaurian objects in the collection some called the “Museum that seared scientists” were virtually as offensive to the current scientific paradigm as were the dinosaurs. Science has reacted to the collection with a combination of intense indifference or a determination to lable them as fakes- from afar.

Ica Stones In 1966, Peruvian physician Javier Cabrera Darquea was prompted to begin collecting strange stones found near Ica, Peru which his father had also collected back in the 1930’s. These stones of various sizes showed man and dinosaurs interacting but also, telescopes, heart surgery, constellations and many other seemingly out of place and time depictions. Cabrera amassed a collection of over 11,000 of these stones. Like the Acambaro figurines, they also came to be labeled fakes.

Photo:Etching from one of the Ica Stones.

Here we potentially have two of the greatest archeaological discoveries of all time being quickly labeled fakes and then ignored by science in the years since. I personally don’t accept the pronouncement. One thing about faking artifacts; it would only be profitable if they are sold to someone.

Here are three reasons why they are unlikely to be fakes; 1)There are 20,000 unsold Acambaro figurines and over 11,000 Ica Stones. Not a very shrewd way to fake a living is it? 2)There are morphological characteristics on certain of the dinosaurs which were not discovered until many years after the stones were discovered. For instance, at the time of the discovery, Sauropods were not depicted with dermal spines. Stephen Czerkas discovery of dermal spines on sauropods in 1992 gave them a “new look” which had already been depicted on ancient artifacts. 3)The surest way not to sell a faked pre Columbian ancient artifact is to place a dinosaur or an Egyptian on it..

Dr. Requena’s Dinosaurs


Prior to the 1944 and 1966 discoveries of the Acambaro and Ica artifacts, respectively, an actual scientist, an anthropologist named Dr. Rafael Requena who was then affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela, discovered his own dinosaur and man artifacts.

I have a signed copy of his book (not to me) detailing the discovery of out of place artifacts at Lago Valencia in Venenzuela and of a new undiscovered ancient civilization there entitled; “Vestigios of Atlantida” (Remnants of Atlantis), published in 1932. I see that used copies of this book are still available for approximately $350.00.

According to the book and news reports about the discoveries, Requena claimed that Venezuela was the cradle of man’s civilization and that the ancient culture interacted with “prehistoric animals”. Among the prehistoric animals named as having been associated with this ancient culture was the diplodocus.

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.


Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…” New York Times June 5, 1932.

Dr. Requena’s discoveries were not declared fakes and his career was not ruined. Both the Ica Stones and the Acambaro figures suffered in the eyes of science because they had not been discovered by scientists-or so the said. The links that Requena made with Atlantis may seem crackpot to some today but were not viewed quite that way back in 1932.


Many of the artifacts of the ancient civilization he discovered can still be found on the internet. However, the dinosaurs have simply disappeared.

We do have his book and an opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not this ancient civilization did in fact interact with dinosaurs.

I do note that even Requena approached the dinosaur angle of his discoveries with some caution. One would think that a discovery of dinosaur art among the remnants of this ancient civilization would have been the absolute focus of the discovery and that there would have been copious photographs of the “prehistoric animals” from every available angle.


Photo:Requena’s suaropod dinosaur from his 1932 book compared to a modern brachiosaurus model.

This was not the case; we do not have close-ups or multiple angles even though it appears that Requena was absolutely convinced that the depictions of dinosaurs were authentic. In fact, the dinosaurs are what convinced Requena that the ancient Venezuelans had to be a very ancient, advanced culture.

The photo above left shows that Requena’s sauropod compares favorably to a modern dinosaur model depicting a brachiosaurus.

Unfortunately, this is the only photographic angle shown in Requena’s book and in magazine articles announcing his discoveries. Clearly the ancient depiction is stylized to some extent. The artifact labeled number 40 in Requena’s book clearly it seems to me depicts a type of armored dinosaur like ankylosaur.


Ankylosauria are a group of herbivorous dinosaurs of the order Ornithischia. It includes the great majority of dinosaurs with armor in the form of bony osteoderms. Ankylosaurs were bulky quadrupeds, with short, powerful limbs. They are first known to have appeared in the early Jurassic Period of China, and persisted until the end of the Cretaceous Period. They have been found on every continent except Africa. …Wikipedia

These creatures supposedly became extinct at least 65 million years ago. The non-club tailed versions are known as nodosaurs although none of those have been reported to be found in South America.


On page 75 of the book Vestigios de la Atlantida are photographs of two “vases” which depict several animal figures. One of those figures is shown on the right. What quadruped has a neck frill like the one shown to the right? In our view, only a ceratopsian dinosaur would have this profile. Unfortunately, this is the only view and resolution that we have.

The case for a ceratopsian dinosaur is bolstered we believe by the fact that Requena says that prehistoric creatures were part of the experience of the Lago Valencia civilization.

There are certainly many types of ceratopsian dinosaurs and many different frill shapes. Shown here (above right) are several modern ceratopsian depictions from as close to the same angle as possible. Ceratopsian dinosaurs have not been found in South America (except for notoceratops) and they also are thought by science to have become extinct over 65 million years ago.


I’m calling the creature shown to the left the baby ceratops. It has a unique skull shape which doesn’t appear to comport with any known animal and along with its visible appendages make a ceratopsian dinosaur a possibility.

Ceratops does mean “horned face” after all. I’m not going to make a federal case out of this ID given the one angle, low relatively low resolution photo but provide a comparison photo for the reader’s amusement.

Metropolitan Museum of Art Horned Dinosaur with Front and Back Detail


Double-Chambered Whistling Bottle, 4th-7th century Ecuador; Bahia, Ceramic

This time we have a detailed, color photo showing the front and back of these creatures in detail. The curator has fallen back on the canard that these are simply lizards or are mythological creatures.

These creatures are tied by the use of ropes to sticks giving them the man dinosaur/interaction prize amont the dinosaurs we have reviewed for this article. Does one tie a mythological creature to a stick? From the Met’s decription:

“Double-chambered bottles were a common vessel form among the Bahia people of coastal Ecuador. The chambers, which were round and squat or tall and slender, as here, were joined at the bottom by a tube and at the top by a strap handle.


A single, narrow spout tops one of the chambers, while the other vessel serves as a base for modeled figurative sculptures.

On this bottle, two fantastic iguana-like creatures sit side by side at the top, their thick, long tails hanging down the side of the container. The iguanas wear necklaces and head crests; long streamers emerge from their open, fanged mouths; their bodies have dorsal crests and winglike elements projecting on the sides. The dull, bumpy surface of the animals, covered with light green pigment, contrasts with the smooth, burnished finish of the red-slipped chambers.

The hollow iguanas function as whistles, their several holes producing a sound when the liquid in the bottle is poured out. Iguanas or dragonlike creatures and serpents are frequent motifs in Bahia art and seem to have played an important role in local mythology.” …..Met Museum


I believe that these animals are related to ceratopsian dinosaurs as well. They have small neck frills and “nose bumps” similar to that of Leptoceratops or Cerasinops or other ceratopsian dinosaurs.

Note that what appears to be a single, horn projecting from their heads is revealed from the backside to be part of their headcrests or neck frills. Also note the armor over the lower body segment.

Sometimes ceratopsian dinosaurs are portrayed with this body split as has been done with the Lepto and the Cerasinops depictions above.


Leptoceratops is from North America.

A creature like Bradysaurus shown to the right with another version of Leptoceratops is another possibility. Bradysaurus is from South Africa. However, it was a pareiasaur which have been discovered on the continent. These are offered as examples of broad dinosaur types that compare favorably to the creatures depicted by the Ecuadorians.

 

Ancient South American Dinosaur Sacrifices?

Lambayeque Culture Toxodon Sacrafice? According to the Gardiner Museum:

“this is an exquisite example of a double-chambered figural bridge-spout whistling bottle of the Lambayeque Culture. It’s a moulded whistling vessel, the front is a square section and is surmounted by an animal , possibly being marked by two attendants, the back body is moulded in the form of a shell with –as you can see a tall tapering spout and a wide strap handle.

The whole item is painted in black, cream and reddish-brown, with areas of scroll, circular and geometric patterns. It’s from the Middle Horizon period, AD 100-300, of the Lambayeque culture of Peru.”

I think that it is entirely possible that this scene instead depicts “priests” readying a toxodon for sacrifice. Toxodons were among the most prolific types of fossils found in South America and supposedly lived down to 16,500 years ago. Coincidentally, Charles Darwin was among the first to collect fossils of this large animal.

From Wikipedia: “Toxodon is an extinct mammal of the late Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs about 2.6 million to 16,500 years ago. It was indigenous to South America, and was probably the most common large-hoofed mammal in South America at the time of its existence.

Toxodon was about 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) in body length, with an estimated weight up to 1500 kg and about 1.5 metres (4.9 ft) high at the shoulder and resembled a heavy rhinoceros, with a short and vaguely hippopotamus-like head.”

I think that this animal is the right size and has the beaked mouth and other features that make toxodon a possible identification for the creature being depicted here. It seems unlikely that this kind of detail and this kind of ritual would be depicted for only a mythological creature. Whatever this cretaure is it is likely a real creature it seems to me.

Chimu Culture Dinosaur Sacrifice? On the left is a Chimu Culture ceramic artifact from between 1100 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The source is the emuseum.mankato.

From: emuseum.mankato “The Chimu civilization lasted from 1100 AD to the late 1400′s AD. The Chimu state was characterized by conquest and expansion periods of the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. At one time, the Chimu empire encompassed 620 square miles. Minchancamon was the greediest and coincidentally the last leader of the Chimu state.

His quest for dominance, built on by his predecessors, resulted in the conquest of the Sican state to the north. In their quest for expansion, the Chimu encountered the Inca to the south.

The Chimu conflict with the Inca began in 1462, and the Inca eventually prevailed. The Inca conquered the Chimu state in 1475 – 1476.

Paleontologists say that man and dinosaurs missed each other by more than 65 million years. For this reason, they cannot accept that any art showing man interacting with a dinosaur is genuine.

If the piece is believed to be genuine, then it follows that whatever is being represented is not a dinosaur-no matter how apparent the resemblance.

Conversely, creationists, or more specifically, we here at s8int.com do believe that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the recent past and that therefore, ancient art will be found which proves that this interaction took place.

For this reason, we are liable to see a “dinosaur” when in fact the animal is actually something less mysterious. We all have to deal with our biases.

I believe that it is reasonable to assert that this Chimu piece shows a man with a rope or a cloth tied around the neck of a juvenile dinosaur, which is either a pet or which is being prepared for sacrifice. We’ve identified the type of dinosaur as possibly a Maiasaura or an Iquanodon, two related dinosaurs. As usual, everyone is encouraged to make up his/her own mind.

 

Conclusion

The truth is; dinosaurs were created at the same time as all other living creatures. They were called dragons in scripture and were so known in most ancient cultures prior to the time that the huge creatures were given the name dinosauria around 1841 and the name dragon was driven by science into the mythological realm.

The ancient art in museums tell a different story however and that information is no longer available only to academics who may be beholden to the current paradigm or who certainly don’t want to go up against it.

At the current time, perhaps the dragon is still crouching and the dinosaur in modern times, still hidden, however, the truth will come out. As the Bible says;

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”….Luke 8

See Also:

Denial Is not Just a River in Egypt; Suppressed Human and Dinosaur Interactions in Nilotic Art

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries

When Really Giant Humans Left Their Imprints on the World

Human and Dinosaur Inner Actions-When Witnesses Got Eaten

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”

Human and Dinosaur Inner-Action; Unfortunate Humans Provide Evidence of Interaction with Dinosaurs from Inside Their Stomachs

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Giants in Those Days, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Sep 13 2011

Photo: One of thousands of Acambaro Figurines from Pre-Hispanic Peru

Why are there no fossils showing that man interacted with dinosaurs; dinosaur bones which have been gnawed or perhaps dinosaur fossils in association with human fossils or even dinosaur tracks along with human tracks? If you believe that that kind of evidence has not been found, you are assuming facts that are not in evidence.

They’re not in evidence largely because facts that don’t fit the dinosaurs and man never intereracted paradigm are systematically; ignored, suppressed, explained away or relegated to the fringe.

Here are three historical articles that seem to tell another story. By the way, sea monsters (aquatic reptiles) aren’t dinosaurs but they are said to have gone extinct more than 65 million years ago along with the dinosaurs…..s8int.com

FOSSIL PUZZLES IN LOS ANGELES
The Los Angeles Times
December 2, 1900

“Lately there have been unearthed at the north end of Eastlake Avenue, in the foothills surrounding East Los Angeles, some of the most curious fossils ever seen. Nothing just like them has ever been found, and the puzzle is, how they came to be there.

Nature, in her mysterious way, has hidden the explanation, but she has not concealed the fact of their existence; for there they lie, in two great strips, probably forty feet long and ten feet wide. Whoever chooses may go see for himself.

By far the greater number of these unique specimens resemble in and general outline the vertebrae of some enormous animal”.

The article goes on to puzzle over related fossils that appear to bear a very close resemblance to leg bones, noting a rough surface and that they are “somewhat hollow.”

By leg bones, the author soon lets it be known-he means human leg bones in association with a huge animal that could only be a dinosaur.

According to the writer, behind the leg bones was a great very heavy piece which to all the world appears to be a “gigantic human skull”. In proximity to the skull are what appear to be a gigantic pelvis and a correspondingly large thigh.

These items may be noted in a photograph that appears with the article. (If anyone lives in Los Angeles and has access to an archive of the paper they might want to take a look at that photo; Dec 2, 1900).

The author explains that the soil in which these fossils were found has the chalky, carbonous character of soil in which oil is often found.

“The Geologists Have Their Theories

The geologists had been out to see the fossils and so immediately their creative abilities were put to use in order to “normalize” the discovery. One popular theory is that a highly impregnated, mineral rich stream of water had flowed over tree roots or other vegetation to form the large, regular shaped spine like fossils and leg bones.”

Among those clinging tightly to this theory were Prof. John Merriam of Berkeley and E.W. Claypole of Pasadena.

Claypole believed in a variation of the theory that just barely excluded fairies. The author of the 1900 article thinks that these theories fall a bit short on account of the various sizes and shapes of fossils which stubbornly continued to look like animal remains.
The author and perhaps Mr. Towner, the discoverer, believe that the bones are the vertebrae and the remains of a giant saurian.

Mr. Towner invited everyone who had a theory to share it.

“One day this week there was unearthed something that passes all the other specimens, a shape that can barely be mistaken in its identity, and yet from its position, condition and surroundings, is a wonder study. How such a piece could have been preserved so long, or where it came from, or whether it be really the head bone of prehistoric man or not; all these are questions to be answered.

Yet the same skull is apparently that of a human skull, with perfect ridges on the sides. It hardly seems possible that the gigantic leg and other bones could have belonged to one with so small a cranium, yet scientists tell us that the troglodyte, or cave-dwelling man was of enormous stature, with very small brain capacity.”

Photo: From the Original Article


According to the article, there appeared to be a head wound on the skull which no doubt contributed to the man’s death. This explains why the bones of man and dinosaur are “so weirdly intertwined”; the giant man and giant saurian were locked in mortal combat and both had perished as a result.

“What a fight that must have been! Fancy some great man with arms a foot or two longer than our current largest man, and of such stature as we have never contemplated, engaged in deadly struggle with a monster of the Saurian type.”

The author argues that this man was no slouch for he gave as much as he got.


Human Skeleton Inside Mammoth Carnivore with Eight Pound Teeth
Another What Was it?
November 2, 1877, Carthage Montana Patriot

“Mr. Henry Woodard owns a stock rancho in the Indian Territory, in the Peoria Nation, on which is situated the big sulphur spring. The spring is surrounded by a quagmire, which is very deep and slushy, and so soft that it will not bear any considerable weight.

Mr. W lately undertook to curb up the spring in order to get water more easily, and while working in the mire came upon what appeared to be an enormous bone. He at once began an examination which disclosed the fact that it was the head of some mammoth beast.

His curiosity was aroused, and, with the assistance of three other men, he began the work of excavation. For four days they worked, but did not succeed in bringing the monster to the surface. They threw off the marl, but could not lift the head of this golitic giant. They found the skeleton well preserved, and the immense teeth still sat in the jaws.

The jaws were both in place and the spinal column attached to the cranium. The earth was thrown off from the body to the length of twenty feet, but still the gigantic skeleton remained beneath. Three of the front ribs were forced out and proved by measurement to be each eight feet in length.

The dirt was removed from the inside of the osseous structure, and there lay the skeleton of a human being, with one hundred and two flint arrow points and fifteen flint knives. The cranium indicated that it was the skeleton of an Indian.

It would have been impossible for the man to have been inside the animal without having been swallowed by him, and this theory is substantiated by the fact that the bones of the right side of the skeleton were broken and mashed, apparently by force.

The monster, therefore, must have been carnivorous, which is also proven by the teeth, which exhibit the marked characteristics of a flesh-eating beast. A large molar and two incisors, taken from the upper jaw, were exhibited to us at our office yesterday, the largest one weighing eight pounds and measuring eight by four inches in size.

There are two large molars and two blunt tusks on each side of each jaw, the teeth between the molars and the tusks are incisors, having from two to six points and corresponding prongs to each tooth. In front of the tusks the teeth are similar to those of most carnivorous animals in shape.

All the bones indicate that they have lain buried for an incredibly long period, as they crumble rapidly when brought in contact with the atmosphere.

Every circumstance goes to show that these are the largest animal remains ever resurrected, and the teeth, tusks, and structure of the head and jaws prove unmistakably that it was of the carnivorous class.


River Monster that Ate, A Canoe, A Deer and an Indian
The Daily Times, August 25, 1877

Back in the 1800′s a family of “settlers” looks for a suitable Island on which to build a new home off the coast of Northern Alabama. This is an excerpt from the story of their encounter with a dying river monster/aquatic reptile.

“During their visit in search of homes they were induced to go on to the Islands to ascertain if they, or any of them, were of sufficient size to make a settlement.

In order to reach them they procured Indian canoes, made of the bark of trees, in which to cross over the water to the islands. These bark canoes were very small crafts, only of sufficient to carry one, or not more than two persons.

Having prepared themselves for the Inspection of the islands, they set out, and on approaching one, they saw a strange animal of immense size and length about the color of a cat-fish, but more In the shape of a snake, which seemed to have drifted upon the edge of a small island, and was partly in and out of the water, making movements and contortions like it was in the agonies of death.

They approached it. It was partly covered by the water and partly on dry land, but it was of such enormous size and strange shape it baffled all their ideas of such animals, or their knowledge of the whole animal kingdom, but it was certainly a water animal of the snake genre.

After watching its movements and holding a short consultation they determined to kill it if bullets would do so. They then approached more closely; to it and fired several rounds until they discovered that it was dead. Then they went to it for a close examination- to ascertain what it really was, and discovered from the sharp protuberance and unevenness of its body on one side an the evenness of the other that there must be something in it.

When they discovered that they had never seen or heard, or read of such an animal they proceeded with their tomahawks and butcher knives to open it and in doing so, to their utter amazement and surprise, they found in it a bark canoe, the horns and skeleton of a large deer, the skeleton of an Indian, also an old rifle gun such as the Indians of that day used, and bow and arrows.

From finding the above named articles in it and their appearance they concluded that some weeks previously an Indian had-killed a deer, put it into his canoe, and, while crossing the river, the monster had swallowed the canoe, with the Indian, deer and other articles In it. The flesh of the Indian and deer had been digested but the canoe, the gun, the bow and arrows and bones were so indigestible as to sicken the monster, and so enfeeble it that it had floated to where they found it and could not escape from them.

30+ Out of Place and Out of Time Animals in the Ancient Americas that Expound Genesis and Confound Science; “Evidence” that Proves the Biblical Account Reliable and Macro-Evolution Deniable

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Sep 22 2010

embedded by Embedded Video

YouTube Direkt Quadrupeds and Flatheads, Ominivores and Carnivores, Plesiosaurs and Dinosaurs, Giant Creatures with Identifying Features, the Uropatagium and the alleged explosion of the Cambrian.

Thirty plus “eons extinct” creatures that lived in the Americas in recent times.

Slide show and Movie;(Part 1 and Part 2) The movie has the narration. See the slide show for detail and deliberation.

Part 1 Video

Part 2 Video –Corrected

Direct Link to Slideshow

Alternate Slideshow Site-Calameo

The Ancient, Global, Griffin Solution; Cultural Diffusion, Paleontological Confusion, Or Living Creature Profusion? Ancient American Mound Builder “Griffin”–Identical to 500 B.C. Persian and 7th Century Greek Griffin

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 26 2010

By Chris Parker, Copyright 2010

Top Photo: Moundbuilder “Griffin” with Persepolis stone griffin, Persia 5th century B.C. Click for Higher Resolution photo

No doubt some are beginning to grow weary of the creature show we’ve been featuring here lately but in terms of the various topics that we cover, we mostly take them as they come. Lately I’ve beem poring over old books about the ancient Americans known as the Mound Builders and have come across some very interesting material-including some recent material on American creatures of the past.

This short article is about one of the most interesting items I’ve come across in some time.

Dragons have appeared in the art of virtually all cultures on all continents since the beginning of time. A subset of the dragon is the griffin (or gryphon). The griffin has appeared in the arts of ancient cultures in Asia, Persia, Greece, Rome to name a few spanning time and place from the 15th century versions in the palace at Knossos to Medieval times in Europe.

In each of these places and times, the features of the creature have been remarkably similar; long ears or sometimes horns, a prominent curved “beak” and wings.

Wikipedia gives this report:

The griffin, griffon, or gryphon (Latin: gryphus) is a legendary creature with the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle. As the lion was traditionally considered the king of the beasts and the eagle was the king of the birds, the griffin was thought to be an especially powerful and majestic creature. Griffins are normally known for guarding treasure and well valued priceless possession.

One classical folklorist propounds the griffin was an ancient misconception derived from fossilized remains of the Protoceratops found in conjunction with gold mining in the Altai mountains of Scythica, in present day southeastern Kazakhstan. In antiquity it was a symbol of divine power and a guardian of the divine.

Most statues have talons, although in some older illustrations it has a lion’s forelimbs; it generally has a lion’s hindquarters. Its eagle’s head is conventionally given prominent ears; these are sometimes described as the lion’s ears, but are often elongated (more like a horse’s), and are sometimes feathered. The earliest depiction of griffins are the 15th century BC frescoes in the Throne Room of the Bronze Age Palace of Knossos, as restored by Sir Arthur Evans.

It continued being a favored decorative theme in Archaic and Classical Greek art. In Central Asia the griffin appears about a thousand years after Bronze Age Crete, in the 5th-4th century BC, probably originating from the Achaemenid Persian Empire. The Achaemenids considered the griffin “a protector from evil, witchcraft and secret slander”. The modern generalist calls it the lion-griffin, as for example, Robin Lane Fox, in Alexander the Great, 1973:31 and notes p. 506, who remarks a lion-griffin attacking a stag in a pebble mosaic Dartmouth College expedition at Pella, perhaps as an emblem of the kingdom of Macedon or a personal one of Alexander’s successor Antipater.

Infrequently, a griffin is portrayed without wings,”

Why are Griffin Depictions So Consistent?

Naturally, science considers “griffins” to be mythological. It should be noted that the griffin down through history has been reported on as a living creature. In fact, the griffin doesn’t to a lot of mythological work; it kills dogs and sheep and pigs and attacks the occasional human but has no magic powers and eats what it kills.

Photo: Moundbuilder “Griffin”. Click for Higher Resolution photo.

A puzzling problem for science and for the “mythological hypothesis” is the consistency of their depictions in virtually all cultures. As Wikipedia briefly noted in the quote above, Folklorist Adrienne Mayor in her book “The First Fossil Hunters Paleontology in Greek and Roman Times”, postulated that the griffin was indeed mythological but that its features were derived from the ancient’s mistaken identification of certain dinosaur bones;

“According to Greek legend, the ferocious griffin was a medium-sized creature, half lion and half eagle, who protected vast quantities of gold in the Atlai Mountains of the Gobi Desert. Various classical scholars, ancient historians, art experts, historians of science, archaeologists, and zoologists had insisted that the griffin was an imaginary creature, a symbol created by the ancient Greeks to represent vigilance, greed, or the difficulties of mining gold. But, Mayor suspected differently.

Mayor writes that the griffin was no simple composite; that it didn’t seem to belong with other ‘obviously imaginary’ hybrids of Greek tradition like Pegasus (a horse with wings), the Minotaur (a man with a bull’s head), or the Sphinx (a winged lion with a woman’s head). Unlike these creatures, the griffin did not play a role in Greek mythology, but instead was a creature of folklore, grounded in naturalistic details.

Plus, the descriptions of these griffins seemed to remain constant over many centuries. These facts led Mayor to believe that the myth of the griffin may have been based in paleontological legend.”
……The First Fossil Hunters, By Adrienne Mayor, Review by Steve Brusatte

Photo: Mayor’s “griffin hypothesis”. Click for Higher Resolution photo.

Mayor specifically identifies the fossils of protoceratops, a “beaked” horned dinosaur as the inspiration behind the griffin. The beak of the protoceratops she is convinced is the model for the griffin” beak”, which has been portrayed consistently through many cultures from 500 B.C. through the middle ages-and even in modern eyewitness accounts.

The protoceratops of course, had no wings. If Mayor’s theory, (which has been widely held and is now cited as fact) is correct, how does a protocertops skull and bones discovered in various times and locations throughout the world always result in a long eared, winged creature?

Mound Builder Culture Griffin from Ohio Turns Many Theories on Their Heads

“Mound Builders, in North American archaeology, is a name given to those people who built mounds in a large area from the Great Lakes to the Gulf of Mexico and from the Mississippi River to the Appalachian Mts. The greatest concentrations of mounds are found in the Mississippi and Ohio valleys. The term “Mound Builders” arose when the origin of the monuments was considered mysterious, most European Americans assuming that the Native Americans were too uncivilized for this accomplishment.


Photo: Left; Apollo and Griffon, 380 B.C., Greek. Right; Arimaspe and Gryphon, Pompeii. 200 B.C. Click for Higher Resolution photo.

In 1894, Cyrus Thompson of the Smithsonian Institution concluded that the Mound Builders were in fact the Native Americans. Clarence Moore, who excavated numerous mound sites in the South between 1892–1916, believed the southern Mound Builders were heavily influenced by the Mesoamerican civilizations, an idea now generally discounted.

Archaeological research indicates the mounds of North America were built over a long period of time by very different types of societies, ranging from mobile hunter-gatherers to sedentary farmers. The prehistoric mounds had a wide variety of forms and fulfilled a range of functions. Many served as burial mounds, individual or collective funerary monuments. Others were temple mounds, platforms for religious structures. Burial mounds were especially common during the Middle Woodland period (c.100 B.C.–A.D. 400), while temple mounds predominated during the Mississippian period (after A.D. 1000).” …InfoPlease.com

On page 280 of the book:”The Mound Builders: Their works and relics”, 2nd Edition, By Stephen Denison Peet published 1n 1903 is a drawing of a “bird pipe from Ohio”, which is virtually identical to the “classical” griffins of Persia, Greece, Rome and Medieval Europe. The elongated ears are there. The curved beak is there. The large eyes and the wings are there. The wings are special. The wings are not the wings of a bird; they are more closely aligned to the wings of a bat. The piece is featured here in this article in close comparison with many archaic griffin depictions and has been sculpted in a very natural style like the hundreds of other Moundbuilder bird and animal pipes that have been discovered.

Photo: Terminal with a Griffin Head, Scythian culture. 7th century BC
Click for Higher Resolution photo.

Clearly the same creature somehow here depicted in ancient America is the same creature that has been depicted among other times and places from the 15th century B.C. at the Palace at Knossos, and in ancient Persia, Greece and Rome in the 7th century and down through the medieval period in Europe!

Squier and Davis, too famous archaeologists who specialized in Mound Builder artifacts had identified the artifact in question an owl and others had continued to identify it as a bird even though it looked nothing like other bird pipes from Ohio–or elsewhere.

In the book; “Animal Carvings from Mounds of the Mississippi Valley, Second Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution”, 1880-81, by Henry W. Henshaw, he says regarding the “owl”:

“The erroneous identification of the manatee, the toucan, and of several other animals having been pointed out, it may be well to glance at certain others of the sculptured animal forms, the identification of which by Squier and Davis has passed without dispute, with a view to determining how far the accuracy of these authors in this particular line is to be trusted, and how successful they have been in interpreting the much lauded “fidelity to nature” of the mound sculptures.

Fig. 20 (the “owl”) (Squier and Davis, Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley, p. 225, Fig. 123) represents a tube of steatite, upon which is carved, as is stated, “in high relief this figure of an owl, attached with its back to the tube.” This carving, the authors state, is “remarkably bold and spirited, and represents the bird with its claws contracted and drawn up, and head and beak elevated as if in an attitude of defense and defiance.”

This carving differs markedly from any of the avian sculptures, and probably was not intended to represent a bird at all. The absence of feather etchings and the peculiar shape of the wing are especially noticeable. It more nearly resembles, if it can be said to resemble anything, a bat, with the features very much distorted”.

Discussion re the “bird pipe” and similar artifacts from the book: The Mound Builders: Their works and Relics:

“Now, the record which is contained in the earthworks and relics is never so reliable as that which comes from the art of writing; but if the study of relics or earthworks is of any value to science or history, we ought to gain from it information in reference to the succession of tribes and the periods of occupation, and separate them from one another. We maintain, however, that this work of interpretation has been hindered more than helped, by the various attempts to identify the Mound-Builders with the Indians, for the term “Indian” conveys the idea that they were all contemporaneous and on a common level; whereas the other term ” Mound Builder,” conveys the idea of great antiquity and suggests the thought that there may have been a succession of tribes during the moundbuilding period.

The social status ot the Indians is supposed to be the same among all the tribes, and on this account it would be very difficult to draw a distinction between them were it not for their language and physical appearance; whereas there was a great contrast among the Mound-Builders in their social status, their art products, their mythological systems, their religious symbols and ceremonies, and all that went to make up their inner and outer life.

Photo: Left to Right; Terminal with a Griffin Head, Scynthian, 7th century B.C.; Moundbuilder griffin; Apollo and griffon, 380 B.C.; Arimaspe and Gryphon, Pompeii, 380 B.C.. Click for Higher Resolution photo.

We think generally of the Indian as a hunter and a savage, but we think of the Mound-Builder as having some degree of civilization, and this impression is increased by th.e study of the relics, especially those in the Ohio Valley. Relics have here been discovered which have so modern a look that there is doubt whether they belong to the historic or prehistoric period, but there are other relics which have such an air of antiquity about them, that there is no doubt whatever but that they belonged to prehistoric times; and, what is more, there is difference enough between them to prove that they belonged to a succession of tribes, and not to one tribe of MoundBuilders.

To illustrate: the relics which were discovered just before the Centennial Exposition in Chicago, and which came from the Hopewell group ot mounds, have such a modern look about them that their antiquity has been doubted by many, and yet it is difficult to identify them as belonging to any known tribe, or to absolutely prove that they were affected by the touch of the white man. On the other hand, the relies which were discovered by Squier & Davis nearly fifty years before, have been acknowledged by all to have belonged to the MoundBuilders’ period. A few have thought that even these, especially the carved pipes, were too good to belong to any prehistoric people.

These relics, however, have been subjected to close scrutiny, both in this country and in England, where they are at present, and the universal belief is that they belonged to the MoundBuilders, and prove that the art of the Mound-Builders was higher than that of the ordinary Indians. These relics are distinguished for their highly-polished and delicately-carved pipes, some of which have been called monitor pipes, from their resemblance to the monitors.

These carved pipes have been discussed many times. Some have claimed that they were close imitations of the birds and animals which were peculiar to the region; but others contain the figures of birds, such as the toucans, which are only found in Mexico, and of animals, such as the manitus, which were only found in the Gulf States. At the same time there were obsidian arrowheads from the Rocky Mountains, mica sheets from North Carolina, copper from the ancient mines of Lake Superior, pearls from the seacoast, shells from various distant regions, as well as specimens ot cloth and many other articles, all of which reveal a high stage of imitative art; but there were no patterns which could be recognized as belonging to a historic country. The difference between the relics exhumed by Squier & Davis and those discovered by Mr. Moorehead is just this: in the latter we discover patterns and symbols which are known to be common in Europe and are not uncommon in America.

The mica sheets seem to have been cut into patterns by sharp instruments. The spool ornaments seem to have been melted in a mold. The copper axes were hammered into shape by a process different from that common among the Indians.

The conventionality of the symbols and patterns, and the size and number of copper axes, and the peculiar form of the pipes, throw a shade of doubt upon their being of prehistoric origin; and yet they were all discovered in the same locality, and some of them in the same group of mounds as those which have been pronounced by all as a purely prehistoric group. The majority of these relics were placed beside the forms of Indian chiefs, and seem to have been buried as though they were their personal possessions.

This may be said in favor of their prehistoric origin: that the same kind of material was used in these relics which have such a modern look, as was common in all the buried relics of the region—sheets of mica, copper axes, copper spools, pearls, shell beads, obsidian knives and arrow-heads, brown hematite—and many of them were placed upon altars similar to those discovered by Squier & Davis over fifty years ago.

What are “Griffins” in Actuality?: Arimaspe and Gryphon, Pompeii

“This fresco comes from the Villa of Mysteries in Pompeii and was reconstructed from fragments. It shows a battle between a gryphon, a legendary beast with the head, talons and wings of an eagle and the body of a lion, and a hooded figure, trying to protect himself from the gryphon claws with his leather shield.
It dates from about 120 years before the eruption which destroyed Pompeii in AD79” ….Aliraqi.com

Photo: Pompeii griffin and long tailed pterosaur. Click for Higher Resolution photo.

This “griffin” appears in this fresco as a natural creature. As Mayor noted in her book, there is nothing particularly “mythological” about how the griffin appears in ancient art and history. The narrow wings, the long tail (possible tail vane). This is one of many ancient works of art which depict specific, unexplained knowledge of pterosaur features. Our Moundbuilder griffin may closely match the heads of ancient griffins but what about the “lion body” etc? Remember that pterosaurs were thought to have been able to walk both as bipeds and quadrupeds.

Possibly the most telling feature are the “hands” which show three grasping fingers, which is precisely correct (pterosaurs have four, one of which is elongated and is hidden inside the wing) and unprecedented elsewhere among wing creatures. The hands are precisely in the correct location as well—they appear to be on the wing.

Graphic: Rhamphorhynchoid Pterosaur sketch by Cornelio Meyer; Link of a “dragon” that lived in a cave in Rome in 1691

The wings are depicted as feathered; what we know about pterosaur wings is that they were not as bat-like as they are frequently depicted by modern illustrators but that they were “hybrid” wings with “feather-like actinofibrils” on the underside for stiffness. The form of this griffin follows Cornelio Meyer’s 1691 drawing of an alleged living fossil rather than the bat-like depictions of today.

This Pompeii “griffin” is recognizable as a cousin to the creature sculpted by the ancient American Moundbuilders–and it also unquestionably a pterosaur…..

See Also Tracking the Ancient Griffin, Modern Monsters and the “Extinct” Pterosaur Through Art, History and Science

Note To Counterfeiter’s of “Ancient Indian Relics”..Don’t Shape Them Like Sauropod Dinosaurs!

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 17 2010

Photo:Counterfeit Relics? Click for Higher Resolution

Note to counterfeiters indeed!

If one is going to create a market for ancient “Indian” relics (back in the mid-late 1800′s and early 1900′s) by cleverly making the artifacts in question, one must be smart enough Not to make them in the shape of a creature that those “Indians” could never have either seen or imagined (according to Darwinist’s).

That would be like counterfeiting $1 million dollar bills or Cleveland Indian World Series tickets today.

Clearly counterfeit bears, fish, horses or buffalo would have been better received, particularly by the scientifically literate. When one realizes that a counterfeiter of those times would have to take the needed time to shape and polish stones into various shapes, then artificially ‘age’ them and then after all that work to sell them for .50., 75 or $1.50 each it hardly makes sense.

Photo:Counterfeit Relics? Click for Higher Resolution

That kind of criminal enterprise would seem to be its own punishment. In fact, if one was convicted of such a crime in those days, a sentence of forced labor making animal shapes from stones would no doubt be both ironic and appropriate.

But then, to be unsmart enough to carve them into the shape of a dinosaur?….The third piece appears to be a side view of a sauropod with a neck frill of some kind…like maybe Miragaia, but dude seriously!

The American Archaeologist Magazine of 1898; for Scientist and Student-A Monthly Journal Devoted to Archaeology and Ethnology was having none of it and editorialized strongly against the counterfeiters.

The Magazine noted:

“We have commenced in this number of The Archaeologist to give our opinion of relic counterfeiters in language that cannot be misconstrued; and we will continue the crusade against the scoundrels until their swindling is suppressed. Let us hear from our readers now”._-Editor

Photo:Counterfeit Relics?
Click for Higher Resolution

We must assume that their readers were also against counterfeiting “Indian relics”.

The editorial pulled no punches, naming the Robinette family of Hancock County Tennessee as one of the chief malefactors although they carefully noted that they also did a brisk trade in genuine “Indian” artifacts.
Clearly, the relics that appeared with the editorial arguably in the shape of prehistoric animals were in the class “fakes” and the very items which could have confused the public.

One of the Robinette family’s chief competitors chimed in and amazingly enough agreed wholeheartedly with the American Anthropologist in the matter. They also perhaps unwittingly identified the primary issue with respect to the ‘fake” relics in question:

A very honorable and reliable dealer in curios, in Ohio, writes us, under recent date, as follows:” I have in my possession one of J.T. Overstreet pipes which I can send you for examination if you wish. It is the best counterfeit pipe I have yet seen, and is well calculated to deceive anyone.

Don’t fail to show up these pipe fraud fiends, for I consider some of their pipes far more dangerous to our business and Your Science than the flint crooks.”.

From this time and distance we cannot comment as to the “fakeness” if any of the artifacts in question. No doubt, counterfeiting these artifacts was a serious problem. But where did these “counterfeiting fiends” get the idea to create fake artifacts in the shape of a sauropod?

Mystery of the Pterosaur Figurine in the 1983 Period Movie; “The Scarlet and the Black”

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
May 07 2009

Video captures by J Pratt.

This scene occurs at about the 1 hr 52 minute mark of the Italian television film “The Scarlet and the Black” featuring (among other notable actors) Christopher Plummer as the commander of the Gestapo during the Nazi occupation of Rome in World War II (after the fall of Mussolini).

I have difficulty believing that the set and location designers, after striving to ensure authentic locations and art for the settings of the film, decided that for this one scene they really needed to create a life-sized gold-plated pterodactyl statue to glare at Plummer’s character from next to a fireplace!

Photo:Two Views (video captures) from the Movie; “The Scarlet and the Black”

You should find two attached jpgs, one of which presents the statue at the closest zoom of the filming camera, and one of which presents the statue from a master shot at another slightly different angle. The resolution is not very good, unfortunately; if you can rent the film at Blockbuster or Netflix, you may be able to obtain a better screen grab. (It certainly looks even more impressive on a high-def television!)

You may recognize this as something you already have better pictures of, but if not then it likely still exists somewhere in Rome in an artistic collection.

Cordially,
J. Pratt

Photo: “Scarlet” ptero compared with alleged dead (non-crested) pterosaur from the 1950′s

As you can see from the photos and comparisons shown here,Jason is on to something. Is is definitely a statue/figure of a pterosaur, probably a crested pterosaur like pterodactylus or a pterodactyl with head spike. The question then is, why is it near the fireplace in a period movie about Nazi’s and the Catholic church?

Is it meant as a joke? I assure you that there are few if any modern gold-plated or bronze statues of pterodactyls. As Jason wondered, is it a reproduction of an anncient Roman piece? Possibly Egyptian, or Greek? We’d ask the set dresser where he got the piece, but he died a few years ago.

Does anyone recognize the style or the piece? Does anyone have the movie in high definition on DVD? Maybe we can obtain a better look at this “pterosaur”….s8int.com

Information About “The Scarlet and the Black”

The Scarlet and the Black is a 1983 made for TV movie starring Gregory Peck and Christopher Plummer. This production should not be confused with the 1993 British television mini series The Scarlet and the Black, which starred Ewan McGregor and Rachel Weisz.

Based on J. P. Gallagher’s book The Scarlet Pimpernel of the Vatican (published in 1967), this movie tells the story of Monsignor Hugh O’Flaherty, a real life Irish Catholic priest who saved thousands of Jews and Allied POWs from Nazi occupied Rome.

Plot synopsis
In 1943, German-occupied Rome witnessed many atrocities of the Gestapo under the command of Colonel Herbert Kappler. Monsignor Hugh O’Flaherty, an Irish priest, was assigned to the Vatican under the pontificate of Pope Pius XII. Despite official Vatican neutrality and significant risk to his position within the church and personal safety, O’Flaherty organizes an enormous network of civilians to save Jewish refugees and Allied POWs from the Nazis.

Colonel Kappler discovers that O’Flaherty is giving shelter to Allied prisoners and orders a white line be drawn around the Vatican compound, later placing German guards along the perimeter and checking identification of those entering to try to stop the inflow of POW’s who O’Flaherty has been helping.

The film portrays the brutal tactics of the Gestapo who torture and execute a priest found to be actively assisting the resistance fighters. Kappler makes it his aim not only to stop O’Flaherty’s efforts, but also to have him assassinated.

Click Here for Same Article with Slightly Larger Photos
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Three Examples of Pterosaur Survival Into Ancient Times?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Giants in Those Days, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 20 2008

Copyright 2008 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Photo/Graphic: Institute of Texan Cultures

What if pterosaurs did survive into the “age of man”? Do you suppose that they would inspire accounts of “dragons” in ancient cultures the world over down through time? Curiously, there are accounts of winged, reptilian dragons in virtually every culture down through history. Science says that this is a coincidence and that pterosaurs died out 65 millon years ago,or more than 50 million years before even primitive man came on the scene.

Admittedly, its not easy to positively identify creatures in ancient art sometimes under the best of circumstances and mistakes can and are made, but we think that these three examples along with the many others that we’ve discussed on more than 80 pages of our Dinosaurs in Literature and Art Section might at least cause one to pause and to wonder if everything science has told us is correct….

Amerigo Vespucci

Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. Amerigo Vespucci first arrived in what is now called South America in 1499 and visited again in 1501. Columbus is credited with discovering the continent even though both of them in all candor were practically the last ones here (behind African’s, the Chinese, the Celts, etc…..).

Columbus thought he had landed in the Indies. Vespucci recognized that he had landed on an entirely new continent and did a better job of popularizing his journeys throughout Europe. In 1503 or 1504, Amerigo published a pamphlet, in Latin, under the Latinized name Albericus Vesputius, entitled Mundus Novus. It was in this pamphlet that he stated his belief that the land reached by Columbus in 1492 , was really a wholly new discovery.

This was contrary to Columbus who mistakenly continued to believe that he had reached India. Because Columbus was so firmly entrenched in his belief, he did not give these lands a new collective name (like Columbus).

He would give the islands and regions he saw and or landed on, a name, but he could not rename India or China. A mapmaker named Waldseemiller decided to name the new continent after Amerigo on a map that was included in a book about Amerigo’s journeys and discoveries. It was feminized to America and that name took. We were however, probably this close to living in Vespucciland and to being forever known as Vespuciians.

Like many explorers before him, Vespucci mentioned some interesting sightings, including, monsters, dragons, serpents and giants, which may have been believed in his time but which are largely discounted or disbelieved today.

John Ogilby was the illustrator who illustrated some of Vespucci’s books and pamphlets, yes later based on Vespucci’s descriptions. Though he wasn’t an eyewitness, one of his drawings (1671) based on Vespucci’s eyewitness account bears a close resemblance to the long tailed pterosaur; it has bat-like wings and a long tail among other features. The Pterosaur wouldn’t be discovered by “science” for more than 100 years.
Giants (Amerigo Vespucci, by Frederick A. Ober)

“As at our arrival we saw no collection of people, eleven of us landed. Finding a path inland, we walked nearly two leagues and came to a village of about twelve houses, in which were seven women who were so large that there was not one among them who was not a span and a half taller than myself.

When they saw us they were very much frightened, and the principal one among them, who seemed certainly a discreet woman, led us by signs into a house and had refreshments prepared for us.

They were such large women that we were about determining to carry off two of the younger
ones as a present to our king; but while we were debating this subject, thirty-six men entered the hut where we were drinking. They were of such great stature that each one was taller when upon his knees than I when standing erect.

In fact, they were giants; each of the women appeared a Penthesilia, and the men Antei. When they came in, some of our number were so frightened that they did not consider themselves safe, for they were armed with very large bows and arrows, besides immense clubs made in the form of swords.

Seeing that we were small of stature they began to converse with us, in order to learn who we were and from what parts we came. We gave them fair words, and answered them, by signs, that we were men of peace and intent only upon seeing the world. Finally, we held it our wisest course to part from them without questioning in our turn; so we returned by the same path in which we had come–they accompanying us quite to the sea-shore, till we went aboard the ships.”

Serpents (Amerigo Vespucci, by Frederick A. Ober)

“We noticed that they were roasting a certain animal that looked like a serpent; it had no wings, and was so disgusting in appearance that we were astonished at its deformity. As we went through their huts or tents, we found many of these serpents alive.

Their feet were tied, and they had a cord about their snouts so that they could not open their mouths, as dogs are sometimes muzzled so they may not bite. These animals had such a savage appearance that none of us durst turn one over, thinking they might be poisonous. They are about the size of a kid, about the length and a half of a man’s arm, and have long, coarse feet armed with large nails.

Their skin is hard, and they are of various colors. They have the snout and face of a serpent, and from the nose there runs a crest, passing over the middle of the back to the root of the tail. We finally concluded that they were serpents, and poisonous; yet, nevertheless, they were eaten by the natives.”

“After having sailed about four hundred leagues, continually along the coast, we concluded that this land was a continent, which might be bounded by the eastern parts of Asia, this being the commencement of the western parts of the continent, because it happened that we saw divers animals, such as lions, stags, goats, wild hogs, rabbits, and other land animals which are not found in islands, but only on the main-land.

Going inland one day with twenty men, we saw a serpent all of twenty-four feet in length and as large in girth as myself. We were very much afraid, and the sight of it caused us to return immediately to the sea. Oft times, indeed, I saw many ferocious animals and enormous serpents.

Shan Hai Jing

This famous Chinese book is at least 2000 years old. Among the animals presented are certainly examples of mythology or of dubious factuality. But how can anyone deny that this creature menacing a stag and a goat from the air, with bats wings and a long serpentine/pterosaur-like tail is in fact a representation of a pterosaur?

“Shan Hai Jing (traditional Chinese: ???; simplified Chinese: ???; pinyin: Sh?nh?i J?ng; Wade-Giles: Shan Hai Ching; literally “Collection of the Mountains and Seas”) is a Chinese classic text that is at least 2,000 years old. It is largely a fabled geographical and cultural account of pre-Qin China as well as a collection of mythology. The book is about 31,000 words long, and is divided into eighteen sections; it describes ver 550 mountains and 300 channels.

The exact author of the book and the time it was written at is still undetermined. It was originally thought that mythical figures such as Yu the Great or Boyi wrote the book. However, the consensus among modern Chinese scholars is that this book was not written at a single time by a single author, but rather by numerous people from the period of the Warring States to the beginning of the Han Dynasty.

Its first known editor was Liu Xiang from the Western Han, who was connected to several works on Confucian classics. Later Guo Pu, a scholar from the Western Jin, made a further annotation to it, including a few others.

Overview

The book is not a narrative, as the “plot” involves detailed descriptions of locations in the cardinal directions of the Mountains, Regions Beyond Seas, Regions Within Seas, and Wilderness. The descriptions are usually of medicines, animals, and geological features. Many descriptions are very mundane, and an equal number are fanciful or strange. Each chapter follows roughly the same formula, and the whole book is extremely repetitious in this way.

It does contains many short myths, and most rarely exceed a paragraph. The most famous ancient Chinese myth from this book is that of the ancient Chinese figures, such as Great Yu, who spent years trying to control the deluge.

The account of him is in the last chapter, chapter 18, in the 2nd to last paragraph (roughly verse 40). This account is a much more fanciful account than the depiction of him in the Classic of History. In Anne Birrell’s translation, Nüwa is not present in a flood story, but another account of her is very briefly touched on in chapter 16″. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Egyptian Rock Crystal Ewer
Ewer
Egypt (Fatimid)
10th-11th century.

We won’t say much about this winged creature attacking a full grown goat and in fact dwarfing it. The beak is not that of a raptor such as an eagle (not curved) and the long neck and wing shape at least make an identification of a pterosaur at least possible.

Rock crystal Carved from a single block of rock crystal, this ewer is a work of outstanding quality. It is one of a series that survives in collections across Europe.

They are often in cathedral treasuries, where they were rededicated after being captured from the ir original Islamic settings. Made in Egypt in the late tenth century, this ewer is exquisitely decorated with fantastic birds, breasts and twisting tendrils. The Treasure of Caliph Mostansir-Billah at Cairo, which was destroyed in 1062, apparently contained 1800 rock crystal vessels. Only a few of these have survived to bear witness to the splendour of the Egyptian caliphs, this example being one of them.

Great skill was required to hollow out the raw rock crystal without breaking it and to carve the delicate, often very shallow, decoration.

More:
The ewer was made in Egypt about the year 1000 of the Christian era. It is a masterpiece of Islamic craft. Sophisticated techniques were required to hollow-out a massive piece of the super-hard rock crystal into a vessel whose walls are mere millimetres thick. The magical clarity achieved was prized by contemporaries as a mystical combination of the properties of air and water.

Difficulties of working the surface reduced decoration to a severe simplicity. After the looting of Cairo’s treasuries, the ewer found its way to Europe where it was transferred to Christian use and admired as a marvel of exotic beauty.

The hunting scenes indicate its original use was secular, as part of a lost Islamic world of courtly life with wine, poetry and music. Rock crystal – like Chinese celadon – was believed to shatter on contact with poison…a comment on the fragility of beauty itself.
Stephen Bayley, Guest Curator

FATIMID CARVED ROCK CRYSTAL EWER
Few objects evoke the richness of mediaeval Islamic culture as much as the small group of carved rock crystal ewers made for the court of the Fatimid rulers of Cairo in the late 10th and early 11th centuries. ….

Fatimid rulers conquered Egypt in 969 and renamed their new capital city Al-Qahira (The Triumphant), which remains the Arabic name for Cairo. Ewers were amongst the works of art made in varied media to reflect this name through their cultural opulence.

Such lavishness could not be maintained indefinitely and by the mid 11th century the state had become so impoverished that much of the Royal Treasury had to be sold, explaining the sudden dispersal of these ewers; a “fire sale” which was recorded by a Fatimid Treasury official in Kitab al-Dhakhai’ir w’al-Tuhaf (The Book of Gifts and Rarities).

Carved from a single piece of flawless rock crystal, which is as hard as toughened steel, the ewers were hollowed out and then carved by hand with extraordinary finesse, leaving a surface in the thinner areas that is only a couple of millimeters thick.

Almost all surviving examples have come through cathedral treasuries and each is decorated with animal groups associated with hunting, surrounded by arabesque designs. Of the other six examples, one is in the Victoria & Albert Museum, London, having been bought privately in 1862 (decorated with a hawk attacking a deer); two are in the treasury of the Basilica of San Marco, Venice (one decorated with a lion, the other a ram); one is in the Cathedral of Fermo, Italy (decorated with a falcon); another is in the Louvre, having been in the treasury of the royal Abbey of Saint Denis, Paris (decorated with a small falcon), and one well-documented ewer (decorated with falcons) which was stolen from the museum in Limoges in 1980. In 1998 another example in the Pitti Palace, Florence decorated with partridges), was apparently broken beyond repair…..Christie’s