Posts Tagged ‘dinosaur human interaction’

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2- Exit the Dragon; Enter the Dinosaur. Why Dinosaurs are Not Extinct-In Ancient Art Museums Around the World

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 09 2012


Story Below–Photo: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum-

“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

by Chris Parker Copyright July 2012 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Part II Prologue

Return to PART I
Jump Ahead to Part 3

“One thing on which both creationists and evolutionists agree is that dinosaurs make marvelous teaching tools. Rare is the adult—and even more rare is the child—who does not have a keen interest in dinosaurs.

These magnificent beasts with the polysyllabic names capture our attention as we fixate on their massive size, their lizard-like skin, or the terror they were apparently able to create as they roamed the Earth. From kindergarten through graduate school, dinosaurs often are used as a tool to indoctrinate students regarding the “fact” of organic evolution.

In most public school, college, and university settings, when dinosaurs are discussed, it is in the context of their evolutionary origin, development, and extinction. Students are told that these wondrous animals evolved from some ancient reptile into what we now know as birds. In such a setting, it is commonplace to use the dinosaurs to instruct simultaneously on the ancient nature of the Earth and/or Universe.” ..www.apologeticspress.org/

Christians and other man/dinosaur believers often haven’t organized their pro dinosaur and man beliefs, explanations and/or theories in such a way as to affirmatively deal with the current scientific paradigm’s onslaught. There is an impressive amount of intellectual firepower directed against anyone who would believe in the historical coexistence of man and dragon/dinosaur. So much so that going up against it is a true David vs Goliath struggle.

There is however, ample evidence in the art and history of ancient civilizations that support the truth which most people are ignorant of. It’s helpful to remember that David won his struggle and Goliath lost his head.

Enter the Dinosaur

Last month, (June 2012) a study whose results were published in the journal Nature suggests that despite long held scientific belief to the contrary, dinosaurs were warm blooded. “Researchers in Spain and Norway reported that they had found tree-like growth rings on the bones of mammals, a feature that until now was thought to be limited to cold-blooded creatures”.

They also found that dinosaurs must have had a high metabolic rate in order to grow to their sometimes great size. Dinosaurs are thought to be reptiles and; reptiles by definition are cold-blooded.

In the July 2010 issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology John Scannella and Jack Horner of the Museum of the Rockies published a study that did away with Triceratops, Draconex, Stygimoloch, and nanotyrannus, describing them as simply juvenile versions of Torosaurus, Pachycephalosaurs and tyrannosaurus whose skulls have simply changed as they aged.

As we mentioned in Part 1 of this article, a June 2009 article in LiveScience indicated that scientists had overestimated the weight and size of dinosaurs by as much as 1/2 to 1/3. As an example an Apatosaurus previously thought to weigh 42 tons is now thought to have weighed “only” 20 tons.

A Discover Magazine article in 2000 confirms that much of what we think dinosaurs looked like is pure speculation on the part of illustrators and paleontologists. No one is really sure what they looked like.

Guess what? If you don’t know anything about dinosaurs you’re practically an expert. This lack of real knowledge about dinosaurs is important as we evaluate the evidence for or against dinosaur depictions in the art of ancient peoples.

Exit the Dragon

Photo: Darwin Hunts Dinosaur from the Time of Christ-to the Death? Palestrina Mosaic Dinosaur

As a self described cryptozooarchaeologist, I have to admit that I am not out standing in my field. In fact, the evidence I search for is not out in the fields. Rather it is in old books, museum collections, libraries and in internet museum databases. I’ll continue to provide some evidence here in Part 2 of this article that; dinosaurs and man lived contemporaneously, that this evidence exists in the art and history of most ancient cultures, and that modern science has hidden or ignored this evidence in a number of both overt and covert ways.

Prior to 1841 when Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosauria” to describe a class of gigantic, reptile-like animals whose fossils were then being discovered and classified every culture had a name for these animals. The Bible and other historical texts and authors called them dragons (or their own local words). When Darwin published the “Origin of the Species” in 1859 he of course had no idea that the actual or virtual extinction of these animals would be used as one of the major standard bearers of the organic evolution theory.

However, the art and artifacts of ancient people proves that as late as the publication of his book other cultures were still recording evidence of the existence of these animals in their times. The accompanying graphic shows Darwin hunting a dinosaur that must have existed at the time of Christ; a dinosaur lifted from the 1st century Roman Mosaic known as the Palestrina Mosaic.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part II

PART 1 of THIS ARTICLE

If one looks at the art and artifacts particularly from China and from South America, their artifacts and arts are literally permeated with depictions of “dragons” and serpents. This is true of other ancient cultures but it is especially noteworthy in these two geo cultural locations. In Part 1 we dealt mostly with dragons/dinosaurs from Asia. I want to transition from Asia to the Americas in Part II of this article but it is appropriate to begin in Asia. Here are three (out of many) dragon depictions from Asia that in fact possibly depict dinosaurs.

Ancient Chinese Bipedal Dragon from the Shanghai Museum

In October of 2010 the Museo del Oro del Banco de la Republica in Bogata, Columbia held a temporary exhibition of Chinese art from the Shanghai Museum entitled: Emperial Dragons from the Collection of the Shanghai Museum”. The exhibition contained 300 works of art related to dragon imagery representing a period it was said of over 5,000 years.

The painting at the top of this article and reproduced here was a part of that collection. The description of the work is: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.”

It is a beautiful piece that features a perhaps “typical” Chinese dragon, a landscape and some men described as “holy”. There are however, several very interesting things about this particular dragon. For one thing, it appears to be bipedal. Now how or why would the Chinese depict a mythical dragon as bipedal? There were in fact many bipedal dinosaurs but science tells us that they all became extinct more than 65 million years ago.

At the very least it’s a big coincidence that artists living three to four thousand years ago would conceive of a four legged, bipedal dragon without ever having seen a four legged, bipedal dinosaur.

Another curious thing about this “dragon” is that the artist for some reason has made it quite clear that this dragon has three clawed “hands” as well as three clawed feet. I have a high resolution version of this piece of art and the claws are distinctive. The final thing of note is that this dragon has a head crest.

I made the point in Part 1 that it is curious that virtually every ancient culture depicted dragons; reptilian, dangerous, large creatures which arguably also fits the description of dinosaurs that they supposedly never saw. I wondered if a crested, bipedal, dinosaur fossil had ever been discovered in China, so I Googled it. I went to images. Google Dinosaur Images

Literally, the first dinosaur that appeared on Google with that description was the Guanlong dinosaur.

This is how Wikipedia described that supposedly millions of years gone dinosaur:


“About 3.0 metres (9.8 ft) long,[1] its fossils were found in the Shishugou Formation dating to about 160 million years ago, in the Oxfordian stage of the Late Jurassic period, 92 million years before its well-known relative Tyrannosaurus.

This bipedal saurischian theropod shared many traits with its descendants, and also had some unusual ones, like a large crest on its head. Unlike later tyrannosaurs, Guanlong had three long fingers on its hands. Guanlong was discovered in the Dzungaria area of China by scientists from George Washington University, and named by Xu Xing in 2006. Guanlong comes from the Chinese words for “crown” and “dragon”, referring to the crest.” Wikipedia

In the graphic above are comparisons of Guanlong with our Han Dynasty “dragon depictions”. Turns out that in addition to being bipedal like our dragon, it had a headcrest and as it turns out, three fingers and three toes just like our dragon. Does this prove that the Han Dynasty depiction is of the Guanlong dinosaur? Not necessarily, but for those who believe that man and dinosaurs lived together this is exactly what one would expect.

It would be difficult for naysayers to explain why a dragon was depicted with morphological features exactly like that of an actual dinosaur who lived it that same geographical area-but science isn’t explaining, it is ignoring.

 

Neolithic Culture Cultural Jade

The object description: “These Photo Galleries were developed from our private collection acquired and privately kept in Hong Kong since 1979. They were uncovered from Neolithic ruins and found their way to the Hong Kong open market since the mainland economy began to open its doors to traders.


These Neolithic Cultural Jades differ from the traditionally collected “burial jades” from the traditional archeological burial sites of Hongshan and Liangchu, discovered in the 1920s and 1930s. Source


Here it is shown in comparison to Yangchuanosaurus. “Yangchuanosaurus is an extinct genus of metriacanthosaurid theropod dinosaur that lived in China during the late Oxfordian (and possibly Kimmeridgian) stage of the Late Jurassic, and was similar in size and appearance to its North American contemporary, Allosaurus.

It hails from the Upper Shaximiao Formation and was the largest predator in a landscape which included the sauropods Mamenchisaurus and Omeisaurus as well as the Stegosaurs Chialingosaurus, Tuojiangosaurus and Chungkingosaurus”…Wikipedia

 

A Pair of Western Han Dynasty Beaulieu Screens Copper Bracket

Descripton of the Artifact:

“Western Han Dynasty. Object is 33.5 cm high and 27.3cm long. The screens on both sides of the barrier under the bracket, the original gilt. Squat in the care seat Broom, proudly curved body Onchocerca, four feet on the synthesis by the two snakes structure on a bearing.

Volumes of the two snakes wrapped around a frog. Frog mouth violent head, trying to break free like. Longkou large sheet of mouth, a rim of the forelegs gripped Long, head stretched forward, as if to escape the invasion of the evil snake get the protection of the Dragon, serene state.


Dragon, snake, frog combination of the three together, is a highly plastic arts, the beauty of antiques. The snake, the frog was a totem of the ancient Yue people, the dragon is one of the four gods worshiped by the Central Plains, the snake wrapped around the frog, dragon stood on the snake to protect the frog tells the story of a legendary totem myths. Now in the possession: Guangzhou Xi Hannan Yue Museum.”


Keeping in mind the Prologue in which we mentioned that the size of many dinosaurs had been exaggerated shouldn’t a fair minded observer consider that this dragon is in fact a depiction of a living Chinese dinosaur during the Han Dynasty period? (206 B.C.–220 A.D.)

Here the Han Dynasty object is compared with Plateosaurus, Dinosaurs related to Plateosaurus have been found in South Africa, North America, and China. Note that Plateosaurus is not depicted with ears. Many ancient culture depictions of these creatures do show them with external ears. Modern science has drawn them as reptiles who often do not have external earflaps. However, as we noted in the Prologue, dinosaurs were probably warm-blooded and possibly not reptiles at all.

 

Dinosaur Depictions at the World’s Oldest Cities

If the Christian/creationist view concerning dinosaurs is correct, then dinosaurs were created by God less than 10,000 years ago and were contemporaneous with man from the beginning. If the evolutionary/current science paradigm is correct and dinosaurs became extinct 65,000,000 years ago, then no evidence of interaction between them should exist and the ubiquitous dragon of many ancient cultures is a mythological, unrelated phenomena.

Golbeki. “Now considered by some to be the oldest civilization in the world is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. “Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known man-made religious structure. The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site.

The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of manpower and labor……


Many of the pillars are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithic cave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.

…..Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic”. ….Wikipedia

Wikipedia notes that there were reliefs of “snakes and other reptiles” at Göbekli Tepe. Here are some of the raised reliefs that might indicate that there were “dinosaurs” at one of the oldest archaeological sites ever found.

Tiahuanico. But some say that mysterious Tiahuanico a seaport 2.5 miles above sea level high in the Andes mountains is the world’s oldest city.

“The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable. There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships.”


According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months. Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them.

Again, creationists might expect to discover some evidence that man had some interaction with dragons now called dinosaurs in ancient time and location. Of course, science would expect no such thing.

This ancient animal depiction is from Tihuanaco and is now housed at the National Archaeological Museum of Bolivia. Here is the official description:


A.D. 200-A.D. 1000
Gold Tiwanaku zoomorphic figurines

These dinosaurs appear to be quadruped carnivore’s although today we think of most carnivorous dinosaurs as having been bi-pedal. Some scientists have speculated that certain prosauropods were either carnivores or omnivores. In any case, here apparently is the view of an eyewitness.

 

The Pivot to South America

In 1973 the late Dr. Hendon Harris Jr. Wrote a book entitled ‘The Asiatic Fathers of America” that theorized based on certain ancient Chinese maps that seafaring Chinese reached the Americas repeatedly beginning around 2,200 B.C., and that those ancient Chinese were the ancestors of the “American Indians”.

“His proof centered on a world map he found in an old map book a year earlier in an antique shop in Korea.



Entitled “Everything under Heaven,” the ancient Chinese map not only showed known major land masses such as Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe, but located China’s fabled Fu Sang—literally “land to the east”—in the region we now know as North and South America”. Epoch Times…

This Colima Culture dragon reminds some of the Naga and other ancient Chinese dragon depictions (Below, right).


Other author’s and Academics have pointed to other evidence of the Ancient Chinese in the Americas including speculation that the ancient, Pre Hispanic and advanced Olmec culture was founded by the Chinese.

One thing is certain, both cultures in the form of their arts certainly showed a strong cultural interest in dragons/slash dinosaurs.


Acambaro Figurines. In 1944 Waldemar Julsrud, a hardware salesman spotted some curious ceramics sticking out of the ground near Acambaro, Mexico on El Toro Mountain.

After examining them, he concluded that they were from an unknown culture. Back in 1923 Julsrud had been the co-discoverer along with Padre Fray Jose Marie Martinez of what came to be known as the Chupicauro culture at an archaeological site only eight miles from El Toro. His discovery of the Chupicauro culture and artifacts which scientists came to believe flourished from 500 B.C. to 500A.D. still stands.

Julsrud paid a local farmer a peso a piece for any whole artifacts that were found at this new location near Acambaro and eventually amassed a collection of over 20,000 unique artifacts which included dinosaurs, Asians, Africans, bearded Caucasians, Polynesians, Egyptian and Sumerian objects and many others. The non-dinosaurian objects in the collection some called the “Museum that seared scientists” were virtually as offensive to the current scientific paradigm as were the dinosaurs. Science has reacted to the collection with a combination of intense indifference or a determination to lable them as fakes- from afar.

Ica Stones In 1966, Peruvian physician Javier Cabrera Darquea was prompted to begin collecting strange stones found near Ica, Peru which his father had also collected back in the 1930’s. These stones of various sizes showed man and dinosaurs interacting but also, telescopes, heart surgery, constellations and many other seemingly out of place and time depictions. Cabrera amassed a collection of over 11,000 of these stones. Like the Acambaro figurines, they also came to be labeled fakes.

Photo:Etching from one of the Ica Stones.

Here we potentially have two of the greatest archeaological discoveries of all time being quickly labeled fakes and then ignored by science in the years since. I personally don’t accept the pronouncement. One thing about faking artifacts; it would only be profitable if they are sold to someone.

Here are three reasons why they are unlikely to be fakes; 1)There are 20,000 unsold Acambaro figurines and over 11,000 Ica Stones. Not a very shrewd way to fake a living is it? 2)There are morphological characteristics on certain of the dinosaurs which were not discovered until many years after the stones were discovered. For instance, at the time of the discovery, Sauropods were not depicted with dermal spines. Stephen Czerkas discovery of dermal spines on sauropods in 1992 gave them a “new look” which had already been depicted on ancient artifacts. 3)The surest way not to sell a faked pre Columbian ancient artifact is to place a dinosaur or an Egyptian on it..

Dr. Requena’s Dinosaurs


Prior to the 1944 and 1966 discoveries of the Acambaro and Ica artifacts, respectively, an actual scientist, an anthropologist named Dr. Rafael Requena who was then affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela, discovered his own dinosaur and man artifacts.

I have a signed copy of his book (not to me) detailing the discovery of out of place artifacts at Lago Valencia in Venenzuela and of a new undiscovered ancient civilization there entitled; “Vestigios of Atlantida” (Remnants of Atlantis), published in 1932. I see that used copies of this book are still available for approximately $350.00.

According to the book and news reports about the discoveries, Requena claimed that Venezuela was the cradle of man’s civilization and that the ancient culture interacted with “prehistoric animals”. Among the prehistoric animals named as having been associated with this ancient culture was the diplodocus.

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.


Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…” New York Times June 5, 1932.

Dr. Requena’s discoveries were not declared fakes and his career was not ruined. Both the Ica Stones and the Acambaro figures suffered in the eyes of science because they had not been discovered by scientists-or so the said. The links that Requena made with Atlantis may seem crackpot to some today but were not viewed quite that way back in 1932.


Many of the artifacts of the ancient civilization he discovered can still be found on the internet. However, the dinosaurs have simply disappeared.

We do have his book and an opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not this ancient civilization did in fact interact with dinosaurs.

I do note that even Requena approached the dinosaur angle of his discoveries with some caution. One would think that a discovery of dinosaur art among the remnants of this ancient civilization would have been the absolute focus of the discovery and that there would have been copious photographs of the “prehistoric animals” from every available angle.


Photo:Requena’s suaropod dinosaur from his 1932 book compared to a modern brachiosaurus model.

This was not the case; we do not have close-ups or multiple angles even though it appears that Requena was absolutely convinced that the depictions of dinosaurs were authentic. In fact, the dinosaurs are what convinced Requena that the ancient Venezuelans had to be a very ancient, advanced culture.

The photo above left shows that Requena’s sauropod compares favorably to a modern dinosaur model depicting a brachiosaurus.

Unfortunately, this is the only photographic angle shown in Requena’s book and in magazine articles announcing his discoveries. Clearly the ancient depiction is stylized to some extent. The artifact labeled number 40 in Requena’s book clearly it seems to me depicts a type of armored dinosaur like ankylosaur.


Ankylosauria are a group of herbivorous dinosaurs of the order Ornithischia. It includes the great majority of dinosaurs with armor in the form of bony osteoderms. Ankylosaurs were bulky quadrupeds, with short, powerful limbs. They are first known to have appeared in the early Jurassic Period of China, and persisted until the end of the Cretaceous Period. They have been found on every continent except Africa. …Wikipedia

These creatures supposedly became extinct at least 65 million years ago. The non-club tailed versions are known as nodosaurs although none of those have been reported to be found in South America.


On page 75 of the book Vestigios de la Atlantida are photographs of two “vases” which depict several animal figures. One of those figures is shown on the right. What quadruped has a neck frill like the one shown to the right? In our view, only a ceratopsian dinosaur would have this profile. Unfortunately, this is the only view and resolution that we have.

The case for a ceratopsian dinosaur is bolstered we believe by the fact that Requena says that prehistoric creatures were part of the experience of the Lago Valencia civilization.

There are certainly many types of ceratopsian dinosaurs and many different frill shapes. Shown here (above right) are several modern ceratopsian depictions from as close to the same angle as possible. Ceratopsian dinosaurs have not been found in South America (except for notoceratops) and they also are thought by science to have become extinct over 65 million years ago.


I’m calling the creature shown to the left the baby ceratops. It has a unique skull shape which doesn’t appear to comport with any known animal and along with its visible appendages make a ceratopsian dinosaur a possibility.

Ceratops does mean “horned face” after all. I’m not going to make a federal case out of this ID given the one angle, low relatively low resolution photo but provide a comparison photo for the reader’s amusement.

Metropolitan Museum of Art Horned Dinosaur with Front and Back Detail


Double-Chambered Whistling Bottle, 4th-7th century Ecuador; Bahia, Ceramic

This time we have a detailed, color photo showing the front and back of these creatures in detail. The curator has fallen back on the canard that these are simply lizards or are mythological creatures.

These creatures are tied by the use of ropes to sticks giving them the man dinosaur/interaction prize amont the dinosaurs we have reviewed for this article. Does one tie a mythological creature to a stick? From the Met’s decription:

“Double-chambered bottles were a common vessel form among the Bahia people of coastal Ecuador. The chambers, which were round and squat or tall and slender, as here, were joined at the bottom by a tube and at the top by a strap handle.


A single, narrow spout tops one of the chambers, while the other vessel serves as a base for modeled figurative sculptures.

On this bottle, two fantastic iguana-like creatures sit side by side at the top, their thick, long tails hanging down the side of the container. The iguanas wear necklaces and head crests; long streamers emerge from their open, fanged mouths; their bodies have dorsal crests and winglike elements projecting on the sides. The dull, bumpy surface of the animals, covered with light green pigment, contrasts with the smooth, burnished finish of the red-slipped chambers.

The hollow iguanas function as whistles, their several holes producing a sound when the liquid in the bottle is poured out. Iguanas or dragonlike creatures and serpents are frequent motifs in Bahia art and seem to have played an important role in local mythology.” …..Met Museum


I believe that these animals are related to ceratopsian dinosaurs as well. They have small neck frills and “nose bumps” similar to that of Leptoceratops or Cerasinops or other ceratopsian dinosaurs.

Note that what appears to be a single, horn projecting from their heads is revealed from the backside to be part of their headcrests or neck frills. Also note the armor over the lower body segment.

Sometimes ceratopsian dinosaurs are portrayed with this body split as has been done with the Lepto and the Cerasinops depictions above.


Leptoceratops is from North America.

A creature like Bradysaurus shown to the right with another version of Leptoceratops is another possibility. Bradysaurus is from South Africa. However, it was a pareiasaur which have been discovered on the continent. These are offered as examples of broad dinosaur types that compare favorably to the creatures depicted by the Ecuadorians.

 

Ancient South American Dinosaur Sacrifices?

Lambayeque Culture Toxodon Sacrafice? According to the Gardiner Museum:

“this is an exquisite example of a double-chambered figural bridge-spout whistling bottle of the Lambayeque Culture. It’s a moulded whistling vessel, the front is a square section and is surmounted by an animal , possibly being marked by two attendants, the back body is moulded in the form of a shell with –as you can see a tall tapering spout and a wide strap handle.

The whole item is painted in black, cream and reddish-brown, with areas of scroll, circular and geometric patterns. It’s from the Middle Horizon period, AD 100-300, of the Lambayeque culture of Peru.”

I think that it is entirely possible that this scene instead depicts “priests” readying a toxodon for sacrifice. Toxodons were among the most prolific types of fossils found in South America and supposedly lived down to 16,500 years ago. Coincidentally, Charles Darwin was among the first to collect fossils of this large animal.

From Wikipedia: “Toxodon is an extinct mammal of the late Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs about 2.6 million to 16,500 years ago. It was indigenous to South America, and was probably the most common large-hoofed mammal in South America at the time of its existence.

Toxodon was about 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) in body length, with an estimated weight up to 1500 kg and about 1.5 metres (4.9 ft) high at the shoulder and resembled a heavy rhinoceros, with a short and vaguely hippopotamus-like head.”

I think that this animal is the right size and has the beaked mouth and other features that make toxodon a possible identification for the creature being depicted here. It seems unlikely that this kind of detail and this kind of ritual would be depicted for only a mythological creature. Whatever this cretaure is it is likely a real creature it seems to me.

Chimu Culture Dinosaur Sacrifice? On the left is a Chimu Culture ceramic artifact from between 1100 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The source is the emuseum.mankato.

From: emuseum.mankato “The Chimu civilization lasted from 1100 AD to the late 1400′s AD. The Chimu state was characterized by conquest and expansion periods of the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. At one time, the Chimu empire encompassed 620 square miles. Minchancamon was the greediest and coincidentally the last leader of the Chimu state.

His quest for dominance, built on by his predecessors, resulted in the conquest of the Sican state to the north. In their quest for expansion, the Chimu encountered the Inca to the south.

The Chimu conflict with the Inca began in 1462, and the Inca eventually prevailed. The Inca conquered the Chimu state in 1475 – 1476.

Paleontologists say that man and dinosaurs missed each other by more than 65 million years. For this reason, they cannot accept that any art showing man interacting with a dinosaur is genuine.

If the piece is believed to be genuine, then it follows that whatever is being represented is not a dinosaur-no matter how apparent the resemblance.

Conversely, creationists, or more specifically, we here at s8int.com do believe that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the recent past and that therefore, ancient art will be found which proves that this interaction took place.

For this reason, we are liable to see a “dinosaur” when in fact the animal is actually something less mysterious. We all have to deal with our biases.

I believe that it is reasonable to assert that this Chimu piece shows a man with a rope or a cloth tied around the neck of a juvenile dinosaur, which is either a pet or which is being prepared for sacrifice. We’ve identified the type of dinosaur as possibly a Maiasaura or an Iquanodon, two related dinosaurs. As usual, everyone is encouraged to make up his/her own mind.

 

Conclusion

The truth is; dinosaurs were created at the same time as all other living creatures. They were called dragons in scripture and were so known in most ancient cultures prior to the time that the huge creatures were given the name dinosauria around 1841 and the name dragon was driven by science into the mythological realm.

The ancient art in museums tell a different story however and that information is no longer available only to academics who may be beholden to the current paradigm or who certainly don’t want to go up against it.

At the current time, perhaps the dragon is still crouching and the dinosaur in modern times, still hidden, however, the truth will come out. As the Bible says;

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”….Luke 8

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

See Also:

Denial Is not Just a River in Egypt; Suppressed Human and Dinosaur Interactions in Nilotic Art

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries

When Really Giant Humans Left Their Imprints on the World

Human and Dinosaur Inner Actions-When Witnesses Got Eaten

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”

Denial Is Not Just A River In Egypt: Suppressed Evidence of Human, Dinosaur and Other “Extinct” Fauna Interaction in First Century Roman, Nilotic Art

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Mar 24 2012


By Chris Parker (Repost from s8int.com)

PART 1

PART II


Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I was reminded of that little witticism this weekend. I left the downtown branch of the public library with a plan to stop by Raul’s for a super burrito, a burrito so large that Ive actually had to take a nap right there under one of Raul’s tables after polishing one off.

I was shocked to discover that Raul’s was no longer there. It had been replaced by a new sushi place.

Raul’s place had replaced a deli restaurant, which had in its turn replaced a pizza shop. I recall that some time ago it had been some kind of smoothie/coffee shop.

Only denial could explain why each new owner believed that his restaurant would succeed where all the others had failed-and why a bank would keep making loans at the location.

“Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.”(free Dictionary) Denial is the Lingua Franca of the human race and the state of denial is larger than the State of California.

When it comes to the issue of dinosaur and human co-existence, denial is also of course in operation. On the Christian side, some but not all have chosen to deny that dinosaurs even existed for fear that there existence might somehow discredit the Bible.

Materialists, rationalists, and/or Atheists similarly seek to discredit any evidence that proves or might tend to support the fact that dinosaurs and humans coexisted for fear that such proof might discredit evolutionary theory.

Palestrina Mosaic. CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION NILE MOSAIC IMAGE

In this article s8int.com will once again, (as weve tried to do on more than 50 pages of this section), provide visual evidence that dinosaurs and humans did in fact coexist; this time in the art of the 1st century. In this article we will seek to show that not just dinosaurs but that other fauna said by science to have become extinct millions of years ago were still living up to at least the time of the 1st century A.D.

I was in the library this week poring over literally thousands of pages of early Roman art, including the art of 1st century Pompeii. I spent this time in the library after spending weeks trying to find more copies and higher resolution photos of the pieces being presented here online.

If and when I did find them, in the great majority of cases the representations of the art had been cropped so that the offending details had been eliminated. Other companion works were often shown in their entirety and often in higher resolution, but these were not.

Although these art masterpieces should be easy to find, they are not.

As you look at the evidence s8int.com presents here, remember that the keepers of the evolutionary paradigm did everything overtly or subtlety possible to keep us from seeing them. That might tend to lend them additional credibility as evidence supporting interaction since there would be no need to surpress or deny information which does not threaten the paradigm.

The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina and the hunting mosaic from the House of the Physician are incredible works that should be well known to the public in their entirety, but if in fact they were well known, they would be very controversial with respect to the evolutionary timeline.

What we really wonder about is; with respect to the powers that be who conspire to keep this information out of the public eye, do they themselves manage to maintain the belief that dinosaurs and man never coexistedor is it just the great unwashed true believers out there who have the pure religion? Is the power of denial really that strong?

What we do know is that whatever we do stumble upon here at s8int.com or whatever anyone else discovers is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

The Nile is the longest river in the world, stretching northwards for approximately 4,000 miles from East Africa to the Mediterranean. In addition to Egypt, it flows through the African countries of Sudan, Burundi, Rwanda, DR Congo, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, and Ethiopia,. Nilotic art like the first century Nile Mosaic of Palestrina detailed life along the Nile.

“The vast Nilotic mosaic (21.3 x 17.3 feet) set into the floor of the apsidal hall adjacent to the sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia at Praeneste (Palestrina) provides important evidence for what Roman triumphal paintings using topographical conventions may have looked like.

On the mosaic, the Nile winds past vignettes representing exotic landscapes and settlements; the more recondite details are carefully labeled in Greek, underscoring the Alexandrian source of the genre. The precise nature of the relationship between the mosaic and cartographic practices is controversial.

Recently the Palestrina mosaic has been interpreted as an actual topographic map of the Nile: the upper part of the mosaic represents Ethiopia, the upper zone of the lower section represents Egypt, and the foreground represents the Delta, top to bottom understood as south to north, the standard convention for ancient maps.

More likely, however, the mosaic provides a large, coherent landscape composition of the Nile during the flood season, nevertheless dependent on topographical conventions”.( Meyboom )

Dinosaur Art From the House of the Physician-Mid First Century A.D.

“Pompeii is a ruined Roman city near modern Naples in the Italian region of Campania, in the territory of the commune of Pompei. It was destroyed during a catastrophic eruption of the volcano Mount Vesuvius on 24 August 79 AD.

The volcano buried the city under many metres of ash and it was lost for 1,600 years before its accidental rediscovery in 1748. Since then, its excavation has provided an extraordinarily detailed insight into the life of a city at the height of the Roman Empire”……Wikipedia

IMAGES: Both of the images on the left are from the “Hunt” mosaic discovered in the House of the physician in Pompeii, Rome.

When the images are discussed, it is within academia, not with the general public.

The apology given for the oversized reptiles is that they are simply nile crocodiles. This is not the case. As we will show, the crocodiles on these Nile works were rendered realistically and accurately as shown in this rendering from the Nile Mosaic on the right.

Note that in the image on the left, and in the complete mural below a man is battling a reptile taller than himself with a shield and a spear. Compare the man, the dinosaur and the building at the center of the image.

The creature on the right has a dermal ridge, unlike a crocodile but exactly like certain dinosaur types which might be safer to sit astride as we will explore below.

Hunt mosaic..

CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION MOSAIC IMAGE

Low stature, armored dinosaur comparison.
.

There are many armored dinosaur types that fit this reptile portrayal at least as well as the crocodile. Most of them had “low slung” bodies with heights of six feet high or less. One can make up his/her own mind but the hunter astride the reptile is between “plates” on its bck. In addition to the examples shown here, other candidates can be seen by following this link.

Another denial tactic is to label the dark skinned peoples in these mosaics as pygmies (to account for reptile towering over native). However, authorities on Roman art note that its not just blacks who are made dimunitve in Roman art but that it was a way of making the Romans seem superior.

African-Roman hercules

African-Roman Hero, Hercules. Fresco, Imperial Roman Pompeii.

Title: Hercules stands beside the enthroned Lydian Queen Omphale

Not only blacks were diminutive in the pieces, white or light skinned persons were dwarfed as well. As a matter of fact, Snowden, in his book “Before Color Prejudice” makes note of the eligaritan nature of the Roman civilization, and apparent lack of color discrimination, using examples from ancient Roman Art; many works showing scenes involving both dark skinned and light skinned citizens.

With respect to the three pieces found at the House of the Physician, all portray light skinned and dark skinned dwarves.

This includes “Judgment of Solomon”, (NOT SHOWN) which depicts the Jews as dwarfed and as both dark skinned and light skinned peoples.

The work below is also first century, from the House of the Physician at Pompeii.

Dinosaur Depiction on Roman Mosaic at Sepphoris?

From the Top of the Page: Detail from floor mosaic discovered at Sepphoris. This is a nilotic scene incorporated into the Dionysos Mosaic.

The mosaic is dated between the first and third centuries. A great earthquake destroyed Sepphoris in 363 A.D.

Note that here warriors/hunters battle the “large reptile” using shields and large rocks.

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs-How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 13 2011


“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

By Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2

Obi-Wan Kenobi is a fictional character and one of the primary protagonists in the Star Wars movie series. Portrayed by Alec Guinness in the original trilogy, he was one of the most memorable. In the world of the Star Wars films, Kenobi had a particular skill that he used to great effect known now as “conversational hypnosis”. He was able to convince his antagonists by speaking in a specific tone of voice to alter their intended courses of action or for example, to see something that wasn’t in fact there.

Someone or something with even greater abilities is at work here in the real world. When it comes to modern science’s ability to utilize that same skill in convincing the world that dinosaurs and man never interacted, I’m afraid that Obi-Wan Kenobi comes off as a Wookiee;/rookie. Of course, in the movie Obi-Wan had the virtue of not being on the “dark” side. Not true of modern science.

Citizen: ”Science, Shouldn’t I look into the dinosaur/ancient dragon connection more closely?”
Evolutionary Science: [with a small wave of its hand]’ You don’t need to look into the dinosaur question more closely”.
Citizen: ” We don’t need to look more closely.”
Evolutionary Science: [calmly, smoothly, head moving side to side; indicating no..] These aren’t the dinosaurs you’re looking for.
Citizen: [trancelike] “These aren’t the dinosaurs I’m looking for.”
Evolutionary Science: You can go about your business.
Citizen: “ I can go about my business”.
Evolutionary Science:” Move along”.
Citizen: “ Moving along, moving along.”

It’s a bit ironic how easily even evolutionists accept portrayals of man and dinosaur together in cartoons, television programs and movies. However, we have all been trained regarding when it is acceptable to see these interactions and when it is not. Dinosaurs in cartoons; yes-dinosaurs in ancient art museums, no!

(I know that this particular one isn’t funny, but how about; “When this game evolves we’ll be using pigskin instead of dinosaur skin, but they won’t be here ‘til the Olicene”?)

Click on the cartoon above for the rest of this story. The point; dinosaurs and dragons; change the context change the dragon.

 

Photo Right:Top-Rhamphorynchus fossil at the British Nuseum, 1922. Bottom- Aurora Defeating the Dragon, Aurora Consurgens, Published 1420.

When the British Museum put the fossil remains of Rhamphorynchus on display in 1922, it was labeled “Pterodactyl or Extinct Flying Dragon”, drawing a direct line from the pterosaur of modern science to the historic tales of dragons, flying and otherwise that had pervaded the written and artistic history of virtually every ancient culture.

A photograph of that 1922 exhibit is shown here along with a drawing from the 1420 Book Aurora Consurgens (Aurora Defeating the Dragon). This 1420 book depicts a version of the British Museum pterosaur some 350 years prior to their scientific discovery by Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini thought that they were seagoing creatures.

It’s true that pterosaurs are not considered to be dinosaurs but ancient cultures considered them all (dinosaurs, marine reptiles and pterosaurs) as either dragons or flying dragons. So what happened? How did the clear reference made by the British Museum of the obvious link between, giant, dangerous, reptilian, land, air and sea monsters with the modern discovery of giant, dangerous, reptilian, land air and sea monsters that we call dinosaurs get severed? These dragons are not the dinosaurs you seek!

Let’s start with why before we consider how. Even prior to Darwin many people had become skeptical about such things as the Biblical chronology of the earth and biblical history. For many dragons were considered mythological and a reason to doubt the Bible’s veracity. In this same period, the theories of the geologic column and formation of the earth over millions of years served as grist for the evolution mill. The term dinosaur was coined in 1842. Origin of the Species was published in 1859. All these tended to provide some evidence or support for Atheists and skeptics.

As more and more of these giant, mysterious creatures science called dinosaurs were discovered there was a chance that they could have been associated with the dragons of “recorded history” but instead were placed by science by use of the geologic column to an age millions of years ago.

This fit neatly with modern anti-biblical notions regarding the age of the earth and with evolutionary processes which needed millions and billions of years to complete. Of course any suggestions that dinosaurs were the dragons of the Bible and of ancient cultures would serve to undermine these theories and to support the Bible. The relatively new claim that birds evolved from dinosaurs would seem even more ridiculous if it was understood that dinosaurs were running around with birds –and man just a few years ago.

How Did They do it?

For one thing; scientific illustrators try to make sure that dinosaur depictions look nothing at all like ancient depictions of dragons. It may surprise you to know that scientists actually have no idea what dinosaurs looked like. Witness this rather long exerpt from a Discover Magazine Article in 2000 entitled: What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like?

“In recent months, artists in the workshop have been putting finishing touches on a special exhibit called Fighting Dinosaurs. In a diorama for the new exhibit a fierce velociraptor, looking like a thinned-down turkey with frighteningly large teeth, stalks a protoceratops. With a flanged crest and beaked mouth that make it look like a goat-sized version of its larger and more famous cousin, Triceratops, the protoceratops sees the predator coming and snarls.


The scene is so vivid that some visitors may glance around nervously to be certain they haven’t been whisked back 80 million years by a hidden time machine. “When you come upon a diorama,” says David Harvey, the museum’s vice president of exhibitions, “it transcends all of the data. It becomes a real experience.”

Yet it is precisely that experience with which a growing number of scientists have a big problem: There is precious little data about dinosaurs to transcend. What the museum scientists know about Indians, whales, and elephants is more than enough to mimic real life. But when it comes to dinosaurs, all they really have to work with is an incomplete jumble of bones. Indeed, if the exhibits department were limited to just skeletal data for its dioramas and reconstructions, these halls would take on a most unromantic flavor. For instance, the Indians in the canoe would lack noses, ears, and breasts, and the diorama artists (ignoring for the moment that they are humans themselves) would be at a loss for what to cover them in—slick skin like a dolphin? Monkey fur? Gorilla hair? As for the blue whale, no one would know to make it blue. And the elephants are a special case. There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster.

Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. To begin with, dinosaur skeletons are rarely found intact, and figuring out how scattered bones fit together is not always clear. Then, making the leap of placing tissue and skin on those bones is a process fraught with unknowns.

Some paleontologists trained in comparative anatomy are beginning to analyze microscopic marks that soft tissues make on bones in search of clues to what dinosaurs actually looked like. But taking a pile of bones and conjuring up what snarling dinosaurs about to battle each other really looked like involves at best equal parts educated guesswork and complete artistic fancy. As Mark Norell, curator of vertebrate paleontology at the museum, puts it, dinosaur artwork “is a fantastic leap from what we know.” And most scientists say we may never know a lot more than we do now”….Discover Magazine, September 2000

Dinosaurs look as little like dragons as possible considering that they are both giant, reptilian ‘monsters”. Could artists render them with bonier heads, external ears, beards and the ferocious dragon mien? Not if they want them published or taken seriously. If dinosaurs looked more like dragons it would be even more difficult to get us to “move along” on this issue.

Just a few more things about dinosaurs here; there are not nearly as many types of dinosaurs as you think. Because of evolution theory, dinosaurs are supposed to differ from continent to continent but they don’t. This doesn’t stop science from giving them different names though.

This last note will be important as we begin to look at some actual dinosaur depictions from ancient China—the actual intent of this article –if I can get to it. An article describing a recent study was published in Live Science on June 22, 2009:

Giant Dinosaurs Get Downsized “Some dinosaurs were the largest creatures ever to walk on land, including the classic long-necked, whip-tailed Diplodocus, but a new study suggests it and its many extinct brethren weighed as little as half as much as previously thought.” A new equation for calculating dinosaur mass based on skeletons found that scientists have been overestimating the girth of many dinosaurs.” Giant Dinosaurs get Downsized

    Photo:Might down sized sauropods have looked like this 3,500 year old Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal depiction rather than the standard depiction on the right?

    More here.


Please keep the foregoing in mind and your mind open as you view a few of the many, many examples of dinosaurs catalogued by the ancient Chinese and classed as mythological dragons by modern science; “Crouching dragon? Hidden Dinosaur?” I picked China here today because China and Asia are thought to be the ancient source of the “mythological dragon”. In truth, they appeared in the art and written history of virtually all ancient cultures in some form because “dinosaurs” lived all over the planet within recorded history. Of course it must be said that many alleged mythological creatures were in fact fanciful.

It’s time for a little show and tell!
[whisper] chris parker; these are not the dinosaurs you seek…

Tang Dynasty Running Dragons

I’ve often particularly noticed these little gold Tang Dynasty (618 A.D. to 907 A.D.) running dragons at the Shanghai Museum. Known as running dragons, this little herd of “dragons” are versions of the same type of dragon that crops up in the art of a number of ancient Chinese Dynasties. What a curious way to portray a mythological creature! In a herd.

I thought that perhaps they might be depictions of actual creatures but I was never successful in finding anything similar in modern depictions of dinosaurs.

I noted that there are other versions of this dragon in ancient Chinese art, but I also came across a very similar dragon in the art of ancient Babylon. What strikes me about these dragons is their slight build but also the seemingly “exaggerated” distance between their front and back legs. They certainly don’t make one think of most modern depictions of dinosaurs.

Remember however, that 1) no scientist today has a clue what dinosaurs actually looked like and 2)there is some indication that artists have been placing a little too much meat on the bone; oversizing them as much as double according to the Live Science article quoted above.

The Tang Dynasty dragons are in the center; on the right of the graphic is the famous dragon of Marduk from the Babylonian Ishtar gate. The Babylonian dragon precedes the Tang Dynasty versions by 1,000 years. Is it a coincidence that two ancient societies created nearly identical mythological dragons?


Perhaps. But perhaps not.. The creature on the left is Massospondylus (above photo; skeleton is alongside this para) (“a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the early Jurassic Period (Hettangian to Pliensbachian ages, ca. 200–183 million years ago).” Wikipedia), as it appears on a Canadian stamp.

Massopondylus’ skeleton is very slight and most artists have depicted it as a heavier creature. However, drawn as a slighter animal it bears a resemblance to the Chinese dragons. Certainly if this group of dinosaurs, including other similar dinosaurs such as plateosaurus (small prosauropods) had been depicted like this some of us would have drawn a straighter line between dinosaurs and dragons even without the external “dragon” features.

“fossil concentrations have suggested that Massospondylus was a herd animal, perhaps wandering through the ancient landscape of what is today South Africa – as well as the rest of Africa – like modern wildebeest. It was certainly widespread. Remains of Massospondylus have also been found in North and South America, China and India.

When Massospondylus was alive, today’s land masses were all joined together in the super-continent Pangaea (‘Pan-jee-a’, which is Greek for “All Earth”). This distribution of fossils indicates that the animals were present in large numbers over very large areas.” ….www.primeorigins.co.za/young_minds/massospondylus.htm

Let’s look at other slighter depictions of prosauropods like Massopondylus and compare them to depictions of ancient Chinese “dragons”.

At left, on top, is a Song dynasty dragon, (1127 A.D.-1279 A.D.) in silver and gold with turquoise inlays from the Musee Guimet, in Paris. Below is a depiction of plateosaurus, a prosauropod, similar to massospondylus. (Note to the detail oriented: the modern depiction has the rear left leg extended backwards at the same time as the forward left leg is extended forward. The mythological dragon seems as though he has the better gait?)

Do these dragons in fact represent truer versions of prosauropod? It could be. The point remains that no one knows what dinosaurs actually looked like.

 

 

I want to show you an additional dinosaur depiction that makes it clear that the same allegedly mythological dinosaur was modeled by as we showed the Babylonians on the Ishtar Gate, (604- 562 BC), the Tang Dynasty (618A.D. -907A.D.) and ancient South America from the Pre-classical Chupicuaro Culture (800 BC to 200 AD).

On top is a piece from the Julsrud collection; a collection of over 30 thousand miniature figurines found buried at the foot of El Toro Mountain on the outskirts of Acambaro, Mexico.

Of course, because the collection features so many obvious dinosaurs interacting with man it is not considered to be genuine. It is remarkable that the same dinosaur/dragon depiction has appeared on at least three continents representing cultures spanning 1,500 years.

The dinosaur/dragon on the bottom is also from the Tang Dynasty; it is a rare painted ceramic that recently sold at auction for over $23,000. The fact that the 1945 discovered Julsrud collection depicts dinosaurs not as modern artists do but as the ancients did provides credibility for the collection and the idea that these are real and not mythological creatures.


Here on the right an apparently clueless ancient Chinese hunter chases a “mythological creature” with either a bow or a bolo weapon. These Sketches (rubbings) of Han Dynasty (206 B.C. to 220 A.D.)motifs are by Lampo Leong, a University of Missouri Professor. The dynamic movement is typical of Han art. This appears to be the same dragon depicted by the Tang Dynasty, the ancient Babylonians, the ancient South Americans and-the Canadians!?

Science does not know hat dinosaurs looked like but “it” is sure of this one thing; they did not look anything like dragons!

Moving on.

Liao Dynasty

This next beautiful piece comes down to use from Liao Dynasty, China. (Photo from Wikimedia). It is a drinking flask covered with a Sancai glaze.

“The Liao Dynasty, also known as the Khitan Empire was an empire in East Asia that ruled over the regions of Manchuria, Mongolia, and parts of northern China proper between 907 – 1125. It was founded by the Yelü clan of the Khitan people in the same year as Tang Dynasty collapsed (907), even though its first ruler, Yelü Abaoji (Yaruud Ambagai Khan), did not declare an era name until 916.” Wikipedia

This piece is interesting because it features two different dragons. I want to discuss the “dragon” on the top of the flask. First of all, as for it being a dragon; it instead reminds me very much of a ceratopsian dinosaur. After all “ceratopsian” is Greek for “horned face”. The ceratopsians, which includes triceratops; supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years prior to the Liao Dynasty.

I see the horned face, and I see what appears to be from the only angle we have, a rudimentary neck frill.

But do you know what else?

Yes! The feet!. The dinosaur feet! Well, feet that would make tracks similar to those three-toed tracks made by many types of dinosaurs (although there are wide variations in three-toed dinosaur tracks). Note here the leptoceratopsian dinosaur; his feet are very similar to that of our dragon aboard the flask.

Note: “Except in extraordinary circumstances, it’s pretty much impossible to identify the specific genus or species of dinosaur that made a given footprint. What paleontologists can figure out fairly easily is whether the dinosaur was bipedal or quadruped (that is, whether it walked on two or four feet); what geological period it lived in (based on the age of the sediment where the footprint is found); and its approximate size and weight (based on the size and depth of the footprint).”..About.com Dinosaurs

Early American naturalist Edward Hitchcock wrongly interpreted the thousands of dinosaur footprints that he encountered on the America plains as the footprints of giant, flightless birds who roamed the Americas in giant herds. His mistaken hypothesis was taken up by a number of other naturalists for a time.

Here however, the Ancient Chinese somehow rightly associated dinosaur footprints with large dragon and dinosaur-like reptiles….

On the right here we compare the two right footprints of our Liao Dynasty dragon with those of the dinosaur. My guess is that the Ancient Chinese did not have to look at ancient tracks on the plain to figure out what sorts of creatures made them. The creatures; dinosaurs were still living at that time.

 

 

Late Eastern Zhou Sauropod

“The Shang dynasty (1766 BC – 1027 BC) ruled parts of northern and central China. Its capital city was located at Anyang near the border of Henan from about 1384 BCE. This dynasty was based on agriculture; millet, wheat, and barley were the primary crops grown.

In addition to the crops, silkworms, pigs, dogs, sheep, and oxen were raised. Aside from their agricultural prowess, the Shang dynasty was also advanced in metallurgy. Bronze ships, weapons, and tools were found from that era.” Thinkquest

This Ancient Chinese ornamental box of bronze features an unmistakable depiction of a sauropod dinosaur. To be more precise, likely a prosauropod dinosaur. A version of the object appeared in the book (The Great Bronze Age of China, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1980, p. 285.) Fong, Wen ed. This photo is from Zhengzhou, from the Henan Museum.

The sauropod dinosaurs are easily recognizable and difficult to miss, however, might science here again made its depictions of the creature to large? One alternative to consider is that the creature depicted is one of the group that modern science now calls prosauropods who among other things was generally smaller. The creature crawling up the side of the box is also making an appearance here out in the water in the introductory photo at the very top of the page.

Here also he is shown in comparison to several dinosaurs described as ancient Chinese prosauropods, extinct for over 65 million years.

Top, left Yunnanosaurus; “ a genus of prosauropod dinosaur from the Early to Middle Jurassic Period, a position in time that makes it one of the last prosauropods. It is closely related to Lufengosaurus. Known from two valid species, Yunnanosaurus ranged in size from 7 meters (23 feet) long and 2 m (6.5 ft) high to 13 m (42 ft) long in the largest species.” Yang Zhongjian (aka C. C. Young) discovered the first Yunnanosaurus skeletons in the Lufeng Formation of Yunnan, China…Wikipedia

Bottom, right: Yimenosaurus .”Along with its close contemporary, Jingshanosaurus, Yimenosaurus was one of the largest prosauropods, measuring about 30 feet from head to tail and weighing as much as two tons–not much compared to the plus-sized sauropods of the late Jurassic period, but beefier than most other prosauropods, which only weighed a few hundred pounds. Thanks to its numerous (and near-complete) fossil remains, Yimenosaurus is one of the better known herbivorous dinosaurs of early Jurassic Asia, rivaled only by another Chinese prosauropod, Lufengosaurus.”…Wikipedia

PHOTO;Lufengosaurus Skeleton

The point here is not so much to identify the actual species of prosauropod that the Eastern Zhou “dragon” represents but rather to show that the artist could have credibly meant to represent one of these animals which were thought to have gone extinct 65 million years prior to the Shang Dynasty. This crouching dragon was more likely a hidden dinosaur.

 

 

Han Dynasty Theropod Dinosaur

The Chinese dragon bronze sculpture (below right, faded) is on display at the Glendive dinosaur and fossil museum in Glendive, Montana.

It is dated to the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.-220 A.D.)and is approximately 2,000 years old. The piece looks remarkably like a Theropod dinosaur including the correct posture, dermal spines, and forearms that end in “hands”. It bears a remarkable resemblance to a Therizinosaur.

The larger and clearer photo of the figure to the left is a virtually identical artifact described as an “ancient Chinese artifact”. The item is for sale on EBAY. The seller claims that it is a bronze, ancient piece from the Bronze Age of China.

If the item is authentic, then it bears a close resemblance to a Therizinosaur with its exaggerated claws and bi pedal stance. One would have to be impressed that the ancient Chinese could have even mythologized a bi pedal dragon/dinosaur. (Note the “compare” drawing is actually of Harpymimus (Wikidino) which is basicallly the Chinese version of the same theropod dinosaur.)

 

 

Ancient Chinese Fu (Foo) Dogs/Lions and other Mysterious Buddhist Temple Creatures

Photo:Pair of Asian stoneware lions 18th century.(1700’s) Busacca Gallery.

Foo Dogs/Lions are neither dogs nor lions. No one is quite sure what they are/were other than mystical creatures. I’ve been interested in them for some time because they are so ubiquitous, because they appear elsewhere in the ancient world outside of China; in ancient India for instance.
From Wikipedia “Chinese guardian lions, known as Shishi lions (Chinese pinyin: shísh?; literally “stone lion”) or Imperial guardian lion, and often incorrectly called “Foo Dogs” in the West, are a common representation of the lion in pre-modern China.

They have traditionally stood in front of Chinese Imperial palaces, Imperial tombs, government offices, temples, and the homes of government officials and the wealthy, from the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220), and were believed to have powerful mythic protective benefits. Pairs of guardian lions are still common decorative and symbolic elements at the entrances to restaurants, hotels, supermarkets and other structures, with one sitting on each side of the entrance”.

Photo: Wall at the Ellora Caves

Some time ago I was struck by the following description; from India of a dragon which seemed to picture a creature somewhat similar to the Chinese Foo Dog. Later I found a photo of this Temple scene which also seemed to match the written description of a living creature.

“This kind also have beards, and lift their necks on high, while their scales glitter like silver; and the pupils of their eyes consist of a fiery stone, and they say that this has an uncanny power for many secret purposes.

The plain specimen falls the prize of the hunters whenever it draws upon itself an elephant; for the destruction of both creatures is the result, and those who capture the dragons are rewarded by getting the eyes and skin and teeth.

In most respects they resemble the largest swine, but they are slighter in build and ‘flexible, and they have teeth as sharp and indestructible as those of the largest fishes.”

(See the creature on the far left of the photo above). The Life of Apollonius of Tyana Philostratus {220 AD}On the Existence of Dragons …. Upon his visit to India

Let’s cut to the chase; I may have discovered what these creatures were and they were not mythological as modern science can attest. However, they weren’t dinosaurs either-which is why it took so long for me to identify these particular Chinese/Indian dragons.

For the final section of this somewhat long article I modestly propose to unmask in fact two ancient “mythological creatures”-by name, both of whom it is claimed lived 255 -260 million years ago. One key in examining this upcoming visual evidence is to remember that modern science and modern scientific illustrators like to draw their retrospective animal recreations “unadorned”.

“Moschops (meaning calf face) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Late Permian, around 255 million years ago. Therapsids were proto-mammals (non-mammal synapsids), which were the dominant land animals. Five metres long, Moschops was the largest land animal of its time, a herbivore preyed on by other therapsids. Its remains were found in the Karoo region of South Africa.

Here is a photo of “dragons” on the temple roof in Ellora.

It was the largest land animal at the time, with a body length of around 5 metres (16 ft). It was a heavily-built herbivore with short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. The forelimbs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind limbs were more mammalian in form, being placed directly under the body. The diet of Moschops was mostly plants, sometimes eating meat.”

“Ellora (Marathi) is an archaeological site, 30 km (19 mi) from the city of Aurangabad in the Indian state of Maharashtra built by the Rashtrakuta dynasty. Well-known for its monumental caves, Ellora is a World Heritage SiteEllora represents the epitome of Indian rock-cut architecture.

The 34 “caves” – actually structures excavated out of the vertical face of the Charanandri hills. Buddhist, Hindu and Jain rock-cut temples and viharas and mathas were built between the 5th century and 10th century” Wikipedia….


Are you familiar with the flack that has been caused by the discovery of a stegosaurus depiction at Angkor Wat? “(or the ceratopsian at Muktinath Temple?

This “dinosaur”/dragon depiction is much older. Here is an up close picture of the Ellora Roof Dragon and moschops or a close relative. Moschops did not live over 250 million years ago. He lived within the history of mankind. He was created by God during the six days of creation.

One could literally crop a close picture of the Ellora dragon, label it Moschops and when it came up in image searches for moschops the internet searcher would be none the wiser.

Another group shot of the ellora roof dragon and moschops should make it even more clear that these creatures were living in India during the 5th century A.D.

How did I get in India talking about moschops when I started out writing about Chinese dinosaur/dragons? I have to confesds that initially I believed that the Foo Dogs of China and India were moschops or one of its close relatives.

This just proves that like paleontology, cryptozoological historical archaeology is not an exact science. It’s not even an exacpt pronunciation. I have come to believe that the Foo dogs/lions of China might have been another creature entirely.

Anteosaurus (meaning “previous or early reptile”) is the name given to an extinct genus of large carnivorous synapsid. It lived during the Capitanian epoch of the Middle Permian (266-260 million years ago) in what is now South Africa. They became extinct by the middle Late Permian.

Anteosaurus was a semi aquatic synapsid with a long tail and weak limbs, which indicate a lifestyle including water, much like that of a crocodile. Anteosaurus weighed approximately 500-600 kg and was around 5-6 m long…

Let’s compare a modern depiction of Antesaurus with an ancient one of the Foo Dog/lion.

There is a lot to like in this depiction of antesaurus as a possible model for the Food dog in China and India;.the musculature, the posture and the incisors to name a few.

This Marx toy version of Moschops by Marx toys is what first made me see a possible association with Moschops.

There are so many articles of ancient art that we didn’t get a chance to examine here that there will no doubt have to be, God willing a part two and three of this article.

These are the dinosaurs you seek.

I feel a disturbance in the farce.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2
Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

Did Dinosaurs Interact with Man Under Blue South American Skies? If You Believe the Darwinist Timescale Applies; Viewer Discretion is Advised!

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Religious, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Apr 25 2011

By Chris Parker, s8int.com Copyright 2011
Slide/Movie Transcript: This article is the Transcript to the 15 minute video below. If you want to see all four of the “dinosaurs” we discuss (Ancient Central American), plus the comparisons with modern depictions, then you need to either view the video or the Slide Presentation

Romans 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

If Science is an enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world, as defined by Wikipedia, then Christianity, if true has nothing to fear from science. Question: does science as currently pursued have anything to fear from God?

And how have the advances in modern science impacted the veracity of the Genesis account?

The Universe cannot have been eternal and cannot be eternal because entropy exists. The universe is winding down. At some point then, the universe was created or came into being. The first law of physics; conservation of matter and energy tells us that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Thus this universe exists outside of natural law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE_P-Jy0TmsT

Watch at Youtube

The cells of everything alive contain a complex language known as DNA that directs all activity of the cell and provides the building blocks for life itself. The information in a single cell of bacteria is staggering; enough to fill every book in your local library several times over. Your body has trillions of cells.

Our experience tells us that language is the product of intelligence.

Significant areas of disagreement between Genesis and science include the origin of life and the age of the earth. Science has not discovered how life began; in fact there are literally hundreds of competing and mutually exclusive “scientific” theories concerning life’s origin. Science insists that whatever the process life had to have begun billions of years ago. Genesis tells us that God created all life-in six days.

It would seem then that the age of the universe is important in the contest between science and Genesis. Some Christians have attempted to integrate their Bible beliefs along with the extreme ages given by science. Yet, there is scientific evidence that the universe is young. Robert Gentry PhD has found Polonium Halos in granite rock around the world. Yet polonium has a half life of only about three minutes. If the magna had been cooling over millions of years as science claims these “halos” should have been destroyed.

The moon’s orbit averages a distance of 238,855 miles away from the earth. The moon moves away from the earth every year by 1.5 inches. If the universe is truly 4.5 billion years old, then the moon should have moved an additional 106,500 miles away.

One of the most pervasive challenges to Genesis it seems is the age of the dinosaurs. The Genesis account would testify that dinosaurs were created at the same time as the other creatures. Yet, dinosaurs do not currently exist.

Is science correct when it claims that dinosaurs died out more than 65 million years ago despite the fact that nearly all ancient cultures had memories of large reptiles known as dragons? The dinosaur problem is one that seems to support an old earth age and at the very least convert the Genesis account into a non-literal creation story-or so it would seem to some.

No creature is more thoroughly described in scripture than the dinosaurs behemoth and leviathan at the end of the book of Job. However, even some Christians assert that the scripture there is only describing a hippo.

But something is amiss; for example; Argentinosaurus, a titanosaurus whose fossil remains were found in Argentina, was estimated to weigh up to 100 tons and to have a length of between 90 and 115 feet. The hippopotamus stands at 4.5 to 5 feet tall and 13 feet long. These creatures are shown to scale here. If one believes that God created all creatures then behemoth had to be a dinosaur!

Fortunately, this is something that we can investigate ourselves. Did our ancient ancestors, unfettered by Darwinism, make images of dinosaurs in such a way as to prove that they lived among them? If not, how would Christians reconcile this lack of evidence with a young earth and special creation?

Ancient Central America

Ancient Central America was the land of the Corobici, Cariari, Chorotega, Diquis, BriBri, Chibcha, Chiriqui, Caribe, Nicoya, Guayabo, Talamanca, and among others! The ancient American pre Hispanic civilizations spanned the time period of between 2000 B.C. and 1600 A.D. and because of advanced farming techniques their cities preceded the cities and civilizations of Europe.

They left a testimony in the form of magnificent art, artifacts and stone monuments. The creatures that they memorialized in their art were expressive, intricate and at times very realistic.

Diquis Culture, Reptile Pendant
The Diquis culture of Costa Rica is best known for the giant stone balls that have been found there. This story is about a gold pendant created by the Diquis culture.

Plesiosaurs have been traditionally divided into two major sub-groups; the long-necked, small headed “elasmosaurs” and the short-necked, larger headed “pliosaurids. These sub groups are somewhat arbitrary.

Dolichorhynchops (top, left of this post) was one of those short necked, large headed pliosaurs. Dolichorhynchops (dolly) is thought to have grown up to 18 feet long and to have dined on squid and other soft fishes. The remains of this animal were found in North America. According to current scientific belief, this creature became extinct about 65 million years ago.

Here is a soft plush toy version of Dolichorhynchops from Everything Dinosaur.

Here .is a “Reptile Pendant” from the Diquis culture, made of gold from Costa Rica, circa AD 500-1550. The source is the Robert Dowling gallery. “All works of art are guaranteed to be authentic and as described, unconditionally, for as long as you own them.”

A closer look at this “reptile pendant” reveals that it is in fact a depiction of one of the short necked plesiosaurs, known as pliosauridae.

Here it is compared to Dolichorhynchops and to pliosaur, another possibility. In any case, the depiction is clear. Here is an animal declared by science to be extinct for 65 million years accurately depicted in gold by a civilization less than 2000 years old.

Science appears to be off by about 65 million years. Score one for Genesis.

Alligator Ware

W. H. Holmes in his 19th century book the “Ancient Art of the Province of Chiriquí”, defined a class of clay objects as alligator ware. These objects were said to feature an alligator (reptile) motif. “The designs range from the rather realistic to the most highly conventionalized representations of the animal. A small number of these vessels are modeled to resemble in form this same reptile.” …C. V. HARTMAN

Even as early as the late 1800’s Darwinism had caused scientists to be circumspect about “reptiles” and attributed many reptile or dragon depictions as depictions of the alligator. In fact, some of the depictions really were representations of the alligator.
Here are a few examples of the “alligator” motive from the 1888 book by W.H. Holmes. Some may see the alligator in these depictions but it seems that the ancient Costa Ricans might have been familiar with the dinosaur. These however are not the object of specific interest here.

The Chiriquí culture was an ancient Central American culture that flourished between 800 and 1200 A.D. Chiriquí means valley of the moon.

The American Anthropologist, Volume 9 of the American Anthropological Association, 1907, published a picture of Chiriquí alligator ware which had been excavated from a gravesite near San Jose, Costa Rica. The piece in question was obtained for the Carnegie Museum from Dr George Grant MacCurdy, of the Yale University Museum and is furthered described as a tripod vase.

According to Wikipedia, “Ceratosaurus was a fairly typical theropod, with a large head, short forelimbs, robust hind legs, and a long tail.” The name means “horned lizard”, in reference to the horn on its nose. It was characterized by large jaws with blade-like teeth, a large, blade-like horn on the snout and a pair of hornlets over the eyes.

Uniquely among theropods, Ceratosaurus possessed dermal armor, in the form of small osteoderms running down the middle of its back. The tail of Ceratosaurus comprised about half of the body’s total length. Of course, ceratosaurus and his bi-pedal dinosaur brethren supposedly went extinct 65 million years ago.

But did they? Let’s look more closely at this alligator ware from the Chiriquí culture and remember the description of ceratosaurus; bi-pedal, snout and eyelet horns, dermal armor in the form of osteoderms running down his back. Osteoderms are bony deposits forming scales, plates or other structures in the dermal layers of the skin.

It doesn’t appear to represent an alligator at all. Instead it looks much more like a theropod dinosaur and several are shown here for comparison. In fact, the horns and the dermal armor make it appear to be a specific type of theropod, the meat eating and ferocious ceratosaurus—or a close cousin.

Science appears to be off on its extinction by about 65 million years.

What do you think? Alligator or dinosaur?

South American Idol

In March of 2011, Paleontologists announced the discovery of a flat headed dinosaur dubbed O. quilombensis in Brazil. The dinosaur was thought to be related to the spinosaurids. “Spinosaurid heads in general resemble [those of] alligators—that’s a common feature,” Kellner a paleontologist stated.

A more well known and possibly related flat headed dinosaur was Suchomimus (“crocodile mimic”) which also had a flat, alligator like head. And yes, flat-headed and alligator like dinosaurs are thought to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.
These alligator headed and flat headed dinosaurs put me in mind of something I had seen in an old book.

Ometepe is an island formed by two volcanoes rising from Lake Nicaragua in the Republic of Nicaragua . The peoples there inhabited the island it is thought beginning from 2000 to 500 B.C.

In the book; The Native Races, Volume 4, By Hubert Howe Bancroft, published in 1886, on page 39 of the section; Nicaraguan Antiquities, we find the following quote and drawing.

“Ometepec, rich in pottery and other relics, and reported also to contain idols, has yielded to actual observation only the small animal couchant (couchant means in a lying position) represented in the cut.

It was secretly worshipped by the natives for many years, even in modern times, until this unorthodox practice was discovered and checked by zealous priests. This animal idol was about fourteen inches long and eight inches in height.”

The creature identified as an “idol” appears to be some type of reptile. Its length of legs and other features suggests that it is not an alligator or a crocodile. In fact, it appears to resemble very closely that group of dinosaurs that we now call alligator like or alligator mimics. Could this be another example of a creature out of time? Out of Darwin time, that is.

The Full Armor of God? Or Darwin?

According to Wikipedia, Ankylosaurs, a group of armored dinosaurs were among the last group of dinosaurs standing going extinct 65 million years ago, wiped out by the “KT extinction”. These armored dinosaurs are said by Darwinists to have evolved their armored defense over millions of years, beginning millions of years ago.

Genesis on the other hand claims that these creatures were created as is with their armor in place—not that long ago. A related group; in fact it may be the same group differentiated by sex or the Nodosaurs which are basically the ankylosaurs without the club tails.

It would serve here to simply look at a number of Nodosaurs.

The Museo De Jade is located in San Jose, Costa Rica and is located on the 11th floor of the Institute for National Security (INS). The building is easy to locate but the museum entrance is off to the left side as you approach the main entrance. The exhibit is the largest American jade collection in the world (over 6,000 works of pre-Columbian art and jewelry). All of their exhibits are not jade and their collection comes from all over the Americas, including ancient North America.

As you can see this ancient South American depiction looks quite a bit like a nodosaurine armored dinosaur. Its very difficult to claim that it represents anything else-though I’m sure that Darwinists will so claim. Don’t worry about the lack of clubbed tail; plenty of armored dinosaurs did not have one.

There were a number of closely related types of nodosaurs so we won’t try to identify the exact type.

What do you think? Who is responsible for the armor on these creatures and did they become extinct 65 million years ago?

You Wanted My Rationale So We’re Here at a Museum
My Reasons Are Many But I wanted You To See One
This Placard Proclaims it a 2000 Year Old “Mythical” Creature
But It’s A Dinosaur-Dead 65M Years-If Darwin’s Your Teacher
The Real Answers Are in Genesis But the Wise Have Been Fooled
That is One Reason, My Son, That You Are Being Home Schooled

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Religious, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 15 2010

Photo:Viewing a “Sumerian stone head of a mythical creature, Mesopotamia, Circa 2000 BC” on Sale at Auction in November 2009. Source: Mossgreen.

Sumerian Unicorn?

This piece was exhibited in an Auction catalogue for Fiine Arts auction that took place last year. (Fine Australian & International Art & Antiques ) It appears to have been purchased at the minimum bid of $148.38 by an unknown bidder. The auction house identified the piece as that of a “mythical creature” from Mesopotamia, circa 2,000 B.C. (Size 5cm)

Far from being “mythical”, this piece of ancient art very clearing and in exacting detail pictures a hadrosaurine dinosaur, probably a saurolophus. The parasaurolophus hadrosaurine dinosaur is another possible identification because they were virtually identical to saurolophus in size and head structure. The parasaurolophus had the longer horn. Para means similar or like, so the name parasaurolophus was given to this creature because it was so similar to saurolophus.

Did dinosaurs become extinct 65 million years ago? Why then do accurate representations of them appear in the art of ancient peoples? This piece proves that man and dinosaur co-existed. Given the headgear of these dinosaurs, if they lived in the time of man they are excellent candidates for the “Unicorn” position. After all, unicorn merely means “one horn”.

Saurolophus

“Saurolophus is a genus of large hadrosaurine duckbill that lived about 69.5-68.5 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of North America (Canada) and Asia (Mongolia); it is one of the few genera of dinosaurs known from multiple continents. It is distinguished by a spike-like crest which projects up and back from the skull. Saurolophus was a herbivorous dinosaur which could move about either bipedally or quadrupedally.

The type species, S. osborni, was described by Barnum Brown in 1912. The other valid species, S. angustirostris, lived in Asia, and was described by Anatoly Konstantinovich Rozhdestvensky. A third species is considered dubious.

Saurolophus is known from material including nearly complete skeletons, giving researchers a clear picture of its bony anatomy. S. osborni, the rarer Albertan species, was around 9.8 meters long (32 feet), with its skull a meter long (3.3 feet).It weight is estimated at 1.9 tonnes (2.1 tons).[ S. angustirostris, the Mongolian species, was larger; the type skeleton is roughly 12 meters long (39.4 ft), and larger remains are reported Aside from size, the two species are virtually identical, with differentiation hindered by lack of study.


The most distinctive feature of Saurolophus is its cranial crest, which is present in young individuals but is smaller. It is long and spike-like and projects upward and backward at about a 45 degree angle, starting from over the eyes.

This crest is often described as solid, but appears to be solid only at the point, with internal chambers that may have had a respiratory and/or heat-regulation function.

Discovery and History

Barnum Brown recovered the first described remains of Saurolophus in 1911, including a nearly complete skeleton (AMNH 5220). Now on display in the American Museum of Natural History, this skeleton was the first nearly complete dinosaur skeleton from Canada. It was found in rocks of early Maastrichtian age, in the Upper Cretaceous Horseshoe Canyon Formation (then known as the Edmonton Formation) near Tolman Ferry on the Red Deer River in Alberta.

Brown wasted little time in describing his material, giving it its own subfamily. Saurolophus was an important early reference for other hadrosaurs, as seen in the names of Prosaurolophus (“before Saurolophus”) and Parasaurolophus (“near Saurolophus”). However, little additional material has been recovered and described.

Instead, more abundant remains from Asia have provided more data.”…Wikipedia

Apocrypha: Bel and the Dragon Chapter 1
Mesopotamia

1 And king Astyages was gathered to his fathers, and Cyrus of Persia received his kingdom. 2 And Daniel conversed with the king, and was honoured above all his friends.

3 Now the Babylons had an idol, called Bel, and there were spent upon him every day twelve great measures of fine flour, and forty sheep, and six vessels of wine. 4 And the king worshipped it and went daily to adore it: but Daniel worshipped his own God. And the king said unto him, Why dost not thou worship Bel?

5 Who answered and said, Because I may not worship idols made with hands, but the living God, who hath created the heaven and the earth, and hath sovereignty over all flesh.

6 Then said the king unto him, Thinkest thou not that Bel is a living God? seest thou not how much he eateth and drinketh every day? 7 Then Daniel smiled, and said, O king, be not deceived: for this is but clay within, and brass without, and did never eat or drink any thing.

Graphic:Mesopotamian cylinder seal from 3,300 B.C. The Lovre.
8 So the king was wroth, and called for his priests, and said unto them, If ye tell me not who this is that devoureth these expences, ye shall die. 9 But if ye can certify me that Bel devoureth them, then Daniel shall die: for he hath spoken blasphemy against Bel. And Daniel said unto the king, Let it be according to thy word.

10 Now the priests of Bel were threescore and ten, beside their wives and children. And the king went with Daniel into the temple of Bel. 11 So Bel’s priests said, Lo, we go out: but thou, O king, set on the meat, and make ready the wine, and shut the door fast and seal it with thine own signet; 12 And to morrow when thou comest in, if thou findest not that hath eaten up all, we will suffer death, or else Daniel, that speaketh falsely against us.

13 And they little regarded it: for under the table they had made a privy entrance, whereby they entered in continually, and consumed those things. 14 So when they were gone forth, the king set meats before Bel. Now Daniel had commanded his servants to bring ashes, and those they strewed throughout all the temple in the presence of the king alone: then went they out, and shut the door, and sealed it with the king’s signet, and so departed.

15 Now in the night came the priests with their wives and children, as they were wont to do, and did eat and drinck up all. 16 In the morning betime the king arose, and Daniel with him. 17 And the king said, Daniel, are the seals whole? And he said, Yea, O king, they be whole.

18 And as soon as he had opened the door, the king looked upon the table, and cried with a loud voice, Great art thou, O Bel, and with thee is no deceit at all.

19 Then laughed Daniel, and held the king that he should not go in, and said, Behold now the pavement, and mark well whose footsteps are these. 20 And the king said, I see the footsteps of men, women, and children. And then the king was angry, 21 And took the priests with their wives and children, who shewed him the privy doors, where they came in, and consumed such things as were upon the table.

22 Therefore the king slew them, and delivered Bel into Daniel’s power, who destroyed him and his temple.
23 And in that same place there was a great dragon, which they of Babylon worshipped.

24 And the king said unto Daniel, Wilt thou also say that this is of brass? Lo, he liveth, he eateth and drinketh; thou canst not say that he is no living god: therefore worship him.

25 Then said Daniel unto the king, I will worship the Lord my God: for he is the living God. 26 But give me leave, O king, and I shall slay this dragon without sword or staff. The king said, I give thee leave.
27 Then Daniel took pitch, and fat, and hair, and did seethe them together, and made lumps thereof: this he put in the dragon’s mouth, and so the dragon burst in sunder : and Daniel said, Lo, these are the gods ye worship.

See Also Did Ancient Americans Ride the Parasaurolophus Dinosaur?-Or Did They Just Exaggerate the Size of Their Sheep?

Did Ancient Americans Hunt Sauropod Dinosaurs-or Did They Just Draw Bison with Really Long Necks?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
May 03 2010

In the fine tradition of our prior post; Did Ancient Americans Ride the Parasaurolophus Dinosaur?-Or Did They Just Exaggerate the Size of Their Sheep? we bring you this “companion” article-in the form of a Powerpoint Slideshow.

You can click “Menu” on the Slide, bottom left, to see this full page. Look, maybe noone should be making strong claims about what ancient Americans hunted or co-existed with based on ancient art on a rock–but you can be sure that to the extent that it verifies what science already believes-no problem. But if there is a real or perceived anomaly you can bet it will be categorized as mythological, or perhaps exaggeration etc.

We’re just saying that if you can recognize the ordinary creatures in their arts-then why wouldn’t you at least wonder if perhaps they had really seen the extraordinary…

True Suppressions: Remembering the “Granby Idol” Unfakeable Relic Showing Dinosaur Human Mastodon Interaction in Pre-Glacial Granite

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Religious, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Apr 18 2010

by Chris Parker, Copyright 2010 s8int.com

If dinosaurs and humans lived on earth at the same time as Christians say they did, where is all the evidence? Recent polls show that the majority of Americans reject the theory of evolution and believe in the literal account of creation in the Bible. With respect to dinosaurs and humans interacting, that same public is not so sure.

One of the things we’ve come to understand about that topic while researching over the years is; 1)there actually is plenty of evidence that man and dinosaurs interacted and 2)this information has been and continues to be suppressed.

As an example of “how science works” to marginalize or discredit information that doesn’t fit the evolutionary paradigm we offer this short incident which is wholly unrelated to the subject if this post;

August 8, 1955 The Le Mars-Globe

“A skeleton found in a gravel pit here—a fairly complete skeleton, has been declared by Dr. Reynold Ruppe, state University of Iowa archaeologist, to be the remains of an ice-age man, who lived near the south edge of the glaciers which once covered Plymouth
County.

Photo right :Granby Idol. Click to enhance size.

The Monona County ice-age man, who lived at least 10,000 years ago, ..was not like a modern Indian. He’s something older—and something new.

Bones of a dinosaur were found in the same deposit—about 10 feet deeper.

At first this led to speculation that the dinosaur was the aborigine’s pet, but that didn’t hang together. Dinosaurs disappeared from the earth a million years before the first, man showed up.

So the dinosaur must have left his bones a long, long time before the man died, was drowned or trapped in quicksand at the spot near, Turin where his skeleton was recovered.”

The reader sitting on the edge of his seat when he initially began to read this was quickly calmed by the explanation that this could not be what it might have seemed to be– he was reminded that there was no evidence that dinosaurs and man ever lived together! Science!

Though this scene in various forms, in various venues and with a variety of potential proofs has no doubt been played out thousands of times in thousands of locales, the Atheist continues to ask “where is the evidence” or “why hasn’t evidence of this interaction ever been found” and many Christians wonder also while nevertheless holding on to their beliefs. The relevant information is being suppressed-sometimes “automatically” because it doesn’t fit the paradigm.

The “Granby Idol” The Suppressed Human Dinosaur Interaction Artifact

Photo right :Granby Idol showing dinosaurs and mastodon. Source:The Le Grand Reporter 1923. Click to enhance size.


“If this stone can be proven genuine, it is the biggest find in all anthropological research and antedates anything on the American continent and is going to establish the remote antiquity of man.

I have never seen such remarkable outlines of dinosaurs and mastodons!”…..Jean Allard Jeancon, archaeologist and Curator of the Colorado Historical and Natural History Society and one time special archaeologist for the Bureau of Ethnology at the Smithsonian.

Have you ever heard of this potentially “biggest find in all anthropological research”? Of course not! Dinnosaur human interaction is impossible according to the paradigm as is dinosaur mastodon interaction. Jeancon, a prominent archaeologist of the period was the author of many books both before and after this discovery but as far as we can tell he never mentioned it again.

This despite the fact that many universities were simultaneously studying rubbings of the object in 1923; despite the fact that it clearly represented man, dinosaur and mastodon together and despite the fact that it was virtually “un-fakeable”.

Is Pre-Glacial Man Coming Back?
Mammoth Animals are Outlined in Some of the Colorado Explorations
Hutchison News, January 5 1923

“Denver , Colo., Jan. 6 — Make way for the pre-glacial man or memories of him! That’s what scientists are doing in temporarily discarding the chronologies of Indians, Moundbuilders and even the Aztecs of Old Mexico, in their efforts to establish, if possible the pre-glacial usage of a rock image unearthed by W.L. Chalmers near Grand Lake high in the Colorado rockies .

……..“He found the 66 pound stone six feet below the surface while enlarging an irrigation reservoir on his homestead.

Photo right :Granby Idol showing dinosaurs and mastodon outlined in color. The “carnivorous” dinosaur has the “mean” expression. The three-fingered gentleman is outlined in green. Click to enhance size.

Mammoth animals outlined in the stone of blue granite rock are contemporaneous with the Cro_magnon period.

The flat nose is generally associated with a race preceding the Aztec’s according to J. Allard Jeancon curator of the Colorado Historical and Natural History Society.

The image/sculpture basically shows a three-fingered man holding a tablet covered with a strange, unknown script. According to W.L. Chalmers the discover, scientists in New York, Washington and Santa Fe were at work trying to decipher the script. Other museums and university’s who had no doubt been in touch with Jeancon were seeking to obtain a rubbing from the granite piece.

Difficult to Carve Image Today

“The image through changes in the consistency of the rock, has become harder than steel. Geologists who have seen the stone say it would be impossible to make these impressions today by rubbing with flint implements. It is fourteen inches high, nine inches across the tablet and about 12 inches through to the back.

According to T.M. van Tuhl, who had not seen the rock image, alternate light and dark bands in the Denver Park area had convinced him that the mountains could date back to the “Archean” period, near the creation of the world. Other geologists who had seen it said that it (the artifact) could be thousands or even millions of years old.

What is It? Who Made it? What Does it Say?
The Pinedale Roundup, April 26, 1923

“WHAT is it? Who made it? What does it say?

Photo:Comparison graphic for the mastodon/sauropod impaired :0)

“It” is a curved chunk of granite just dug up on the western edge of Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado—a sort of rock image. I haven’t the slightest idea myself. That’s not surprising- But neither does anyone else, apparently. And that is surprising, considering the expert knowledge of the men who frankly admit that they don’t know, and can’t even guess.

In effect the stone is the image of a sitting man who holds in front of him with hands that have but three fingers a tablet inscribed with unknown characters. One picture shows the representation, above the arm and leg of the man holding the tablet, of a huge, land reptile.

Some of the experts say it is a sauropod, a vegetable-eating dinosaur. Another picture shows a different kind of dinosaur. This, the experts say, is a carnivorous dinosaur. Beneath it is a carving of a mastodon, as anyone can see.

As to the symbols -or hieroglyphics carved on the tablet, they are undecipherable to date. The experts say they are not anything known to archaeologists.

…The prehistoric man who carved this chunk of granite may have drawn the mastodon, from life. But where did he get models for his two very lifelike dinosaurs?”

…Altogether, it must be conceded that the sculptor, whoever he was and whenever he did his work, is an artist. His dinosaurs and mastodon are life like. His three-fingered man stirs the Imagination. His hieroglyphics are apparently unique. But we end where we began. What is it? Who made it? What does it say?”

A STONE IDOL?
www.creationism.org

“These three views of what is probably a Stone Idol, were sent to me by Mr. F. V. Hammar of Saint Louis.

In his letter of June 23rd, 1926, Mr. Hammar says:—”This queer relic was found by a man named Jordan (sic )near Granby, Colorado. Mr. Jordan was excavating for a garage or a cellar and uncovered this stone at a depth of 12 feet.

He found many utensils, etc., in the same place, thus giving the presumption of a settlement. The stone is exceedingly hard green material, and like nothing ever known of in the neighborhood. It may have been brought from a distance.”

This sculptured stone is of unusual interest to me because it shows, carved in high relief, the figures of two dinosaurs and an elephant. The inscriptions are also of great interest, and some of them are similar to those I saw in the Supai Canyon.

It is significant that the dinosaur and elephant are close together in the Supai drawings, and here they are sculptured together on the back of the same figure.

The dinosaurs suggest either the “brontosaurus” or the “diplodocus,” while the elephant has a long curved tusk.”…Samuel Hubbard Jr. Curator of the Oakland Museum and Discoverer of dinosaur petro glyphs in the Grand Canyon of Colorado, along with giant petrified human beings. < ---Click Here to Read That Article

Mysteries and Legends of Colorado: True Stories of the Unsolved and Unexplained
By Jan Murphy

“Was the Granby idol proof of these voyages? (Dr. Cyclone Covey is Professor Emeritus at Wake Forest University and a prolific writer in the area of ‘alternative” history. He has a theory that the Americas were visited in ancient pre-Columbian times by the Chinese who left a few artifacts featuring ancient Chinese writing.)

Dr. Covey believed that the skill of ancient Chinese mariners made these voyages probable, but no artifacts had been found to prove it.

….His final conclusions were that the stone was some type of a marker for travelers and the stone was made of fine-grained dolomite, a heavy stone common to northern China. Words on the stone that he was able to translate were “north” “river”, “fruit” and “fish”.

….Unfortunately the “Granby idol” itself was never again found…”

Conclusion:

The artifacts that would prove that man and dinosaurs coexisted have been found. They are stored in basements or storerooms, lost, ignored, declared to be hoaxes, destroyed and reburied. The “Granby Idol” is another in a long list of such proofs that were placed in the hands of “science” and then “disappeared”.

Scientists who examined it at the time believed it to be genuine. When J.Allard Jeancon came out and suggested that it was likely a true artifact and that it depicted man dinosaur and mastodon together—he proved at least for a very short time to be a brave man. So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate

See Also:True Suppressions Series
Dinosaurs in Literature, History and Art

s8int=saint
Comments to: s8int.com@comcast.net

Don’t Tell Him He’s Not a Chicken-We Need the Eggs—Antique Ivory Coast Pterodactyl?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 13 2008

Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct more than 40 million years ago and that pterosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago. They tell us that there was no great flood; that man and dinosaurs never interacted.

On the other hand, virtually every culture on earth has within its history some version of the flood story and virtually every ancient culture relates stories of reptilian flying dragons or huge earthbound reptlilian creatures very much like dinosaurs.

The Bible describes dinosaurs in the Book of Job–and elsewhere. It speaks of dragons.

Here at s8int.com, we have found that the Bible is borne out in the art of the ancient peoples. This we’ve tried to show in more than 80 pages in our Dinosaurs in Literature, Art and History, section. We’ll say that we are probably wrong in some of our identifications but that there is plenty of evidence in that section to show that neither “dinosaurs” nor pterosaurs became extinct millions of years ago.

This antique piece, shown in Photo 1 is from the Ivory Coast and was offered at auction in 2004. It is described thusly:’

This piece is from the i Ivory Coast, it is Guro/Yaure, a carved face mask, surmounted rooster with bill attached to head, delicate features and plaited coiffure, black and red pigments, 18″ h.

“My friends”,as Senator John McCain might say, “this is no chicken”. There is no rooster with a bill that long. (Anyone who bid on this at auction believing it was a chicken was sold a bill of goods).Note the featherless torso.Photo 2 shows a comparison first with the Antique African pterosaur that we showed last week and with several versions of pterodactylus kochi, a crested pterosaur.

In photo 3, one should note the simarlarities between this Ivory Coast depiction and several crested pterodactyls; kochi and germanodactylus. Note also the eagle like legs and the toes. Birds generally have four toes with one back.

Pterosaurs have five toes with one back. If you look carefully here, you can see the four forward toes. The fifth is not visible. Note also where the wings attach to the body in both the modern ptero drawings and on the piece.

They attach at the same point. For some reason, two different cultures have apparently represented very similar creatures which look very much like modern depictions of certain types of pterosaurs. Based on the detail in both sculptures, they were creatures of which both artists appeared to have been very familar with.

Science may only have been off by about 65 million years.

Related: Story 1
Story 2
Story 3

Creation or Evolution: Is Evolution Just a Theory?
Creation, A Historical Fact

Religious, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 08 2008

John Phillips wrote us this note:

“I have put together a short presentation and I am wondering whether you might be interested in adding a link to it on your website?”

We will! We thoroughly enjoyed it. John speaks slowly and clearly and covers all the topics in this “God Tube” Video. There was a bit about a Gap in Genesis, which confused us a bit, but since he advocates a young earth and no pre Adamic race, we’re ok. Take the time to watch by clicking here or on the photo.

Debunking the “150 Million Year Old Reptile” Ichthyosaur Mythology
Extinct for 95 Million Years, Maybe Not!
Convergent Ichthyosaur Evolution, A Fairy Tale

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 03 2008

by Chris Parker, Copy Right 2008 s8int.com

Photo: This “dolphin shaped ceramic from Eretria, 310 B.C., shares an important morphological characteristic with the ichthyosaurs; 4 fins.

“The earliest dolphins appeared in the late Miocene period, some 11 million years ago. The land animals that are closest to whales and dolphins are the Ungulates (hoofed animals). This was determined among others by comparing the structure of body proteins. The closest relative is probably the hippopotamus”(Ursing and Arnason, 1998).”

That foregoing statement divides the world into three groups; those who are so “smart” that they have to believe it, (like PH’D’s) those who are gullible enough to believe something like that and –the rest of us. Thankfully, a majority of us still resist the evolution religion and are in the third group.

This article is ostensibly not about dolphins and whales but rather is about creatures that science has named “ichthyosaurs”, (fish-reptiles) and how they became classified by science as reptiles, unrelated to whales and dolphins, who supposedly died out more than 95 million years ago—some 85 million years prior to the evolution of dolphins who they most resemble morphologically.

In this brief article, I believe that we can show that there is; scant evidence that Ichthyosaurs were reptiles, or at least we can demonstrate that there is more evidence to show that they were Not reptiles, and that they did not become extinct millions of years ago and thus; are not an example of “convergent evolution”.

In addition, I intend to show that they were as you might expect, closely related to the Cetaceans like dolphins and porpoises….

Click Here to Read Article