Posts Tagged ‘creationism’

CROUCHING DRAGONS, HIDDEN DINOSAURS PART 3; CAN MAN, DINOSAUR, TRUTH AND SCIENCE CO-EXIST?

Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 29 2014

BY CHRIS PARKER COPYRIGHT NOVEMBER, 2014

Isaiah 30:6
“This is God’s message about the animals of the southern desert: “The ambassadors travel through dangerous country, where lions live and where there are poisonous snakes and flying dragons. They load their donkeys and camels with expensive gifts for a nation that cannot give them any help.”

PART 1 of This Series

This is Part 3 of an article that almost literally would never have an end. Part 1 “Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs-How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight” was written back in December 2011 and Part 2 was written in July, 2012. What happens is that I collect the data over time and eventually sit down and write the article. There is usually quite a bit of procrastination involved. This may be a little confusing; THIS IS PART 3 OF THE “CROUCHING” Series.

Unfortunately due to the number of Photos I’ve had to split Part 3 into 3 Pages. Follow? Part 1 and 2 of the SERIES were long, single paged articles.

The theme of all three of these articles is that 1) the non-coexistence of man and animals that science now calls dinosaurs somehow became an important Darwinian meme. 2) that the potential connection between the dragons of old and dinosaurs of old should be obvious and 3) that the reason it is perhaps not so obvious is that there has been a successful campaign by the scientific paradigm and other interested parties to obscure the truth.

Why? Dinosaurs serve as an Darwinist/Materialist mascot and appear to support the idea that the world is millions of years old. There is of course a great contrast in the timescales derived from the Bible for the earth’s existence (thousands of years) and that of modern science (billions of years). The mysterious, extinct, creatures science calls dinosaurs could make even some devout Christians wonder just how they fit into a young earth and into the Genesis account and they are a cornerstone in the belief system of some who believe that dinosaurs and other evidence provide clear evidence of biblical error and scientific ignorance.

As a consequence the paradigm is supported in the way most paradigms are supported; until they are proved with overwhelming evidence to be erroneous; supporting evidence is embraced and trumpeted, contrary evidence is suppressed, ignored and/or ridiculed. This is not so much an evolution/Darwin mode of behavior—it is human behavior.

One recent case in point. Scott Wolter is a forensic geologist and host of an alternative history program on H2 called “America Unearthed”. He is willing to look at out of place artifacts that academia can tell is fake from 100,000 mile away simply because they don’t fit the paradigm. I was watching his investigation of the Tucson relics (The Desert Cross Episode) last night; a group of lead artifacts found in Arizona in 1924. This group of swords, picks, shovels and crosses were found embedded in a type of natural cement that they had to be pried out of.

The artifacts contained symbols and Roman numerals indicating that they were from 800A.D. Controversy has swirled around the objects since their discovery and the discoverer was thought by many to be a fraud. The most compelling evidence against their genuineness is an etching of a sauropod dinosaur on one of the pieces. Case closed, right?

After testing the metal, investigating the symbols and Roman letters, examining the crystalline build up which they concluded would take hundreds of years to form etc. –he concluded that the artifacts were genuine. He then chided academia for ignoring the artifacts which being pre-Columbian would have collided with the paradigm. Oh, and what of the dinosaur which had troubled him greatly?
One line.
Oh, the creature has a forked tongue and I’ve never heard of a dinosaur with a forked tongue-so we’ve decided that it is a lizard? Who is it who actually knows anything about dinosaur soft tissue including their tongues? The “lizard” marked to show the lines more clearly is shown here.

Here are a few other examples where the paradigm did not understand the words that were coming out of the mouth of history.

Ancient Ming Dynasty Chinese Landscape Painter Memorializes Some Dinosaurs

Read the Remainder of this Article Here

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody!
Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody.

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 19 2013


Isaiah 35:7
“And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water; in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.”

           
“No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”. by Chris Parker, s8int.com
           

Before you vote; See the follow up to this article Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Did Ancient Artists See and Memorialize Dinosaurs In Their Art?

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Prologue

In the movie; “The Princess Bride” an important character, Inigo has a conversation with the man in black during a sword fight and that conversation has become a trope in television and movies (convention or device used in creative works). The conversation goes something like this:

Inigo: “I admit it: you are better than I am!”
Man in Black: “Then why are you smiling?”
Inigo: “Because I know something you don’t know.”
Man in Black: “And what is that?”
Inigo: “I AM NOT LEFT HANDED” [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]

I sometimes have the feeling that I am in Inigo’s position when I find myself in a conversation with someone about man and dinosaurs living at the same time.

“You believe that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time within the last 10,000 years they’ll say incredulously”? Or perhaps they’ll say it sneeringly, or contemptuously or in some rare cases even sadly or compassionately.

They are quite certain that they have the upper hand, the science, the good sense, the pure knowledge the unmitigated certainty. They slap their foreheads. They roll their eyes. All that. They believe that they are winning this “fight”-discussion-debate because-come on! They may even be fellow believers.

They’re thinking that I have set science aside for some kind of blind faith belief in what science has said is impossible-for the sake of the Bible. They’re thinking I’m living in some anti-science anti-evidence bubble. However, as a Christian I have choices. I could believe as some Christian’s do that God created through evolution and that man and dinosaur did miss each other by millions of years.

I could believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and thus man and dinosaur barely met. I could believe as some Christians do that God sent unbelievers a strong delusion because of their unbelief (Romans 1) and simply put the bones of animals that never existed in the ground in order to further delude them.

I could simply choose not to speak when this topic is raised thinking that as a Christian it is outside of my pay grade, that the answers are unknowable. I could choose to be cowed by the sheer numbers of people who unblinkingly accept the current paradigm.

Caption: The Real Postosuchus? See Below

But I know something they don’t know. I took a fact based approach. I went where the evidence took me and in this internet age the truth can be found. Many non-Christians don’t know that faith is supposed to be built- not on nothing as they assume—but on evidence. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 1:1

I have spent a lot of time sifting through the evidence in ancient history, the work of ancient “biologists” the articles in old newspapers and recently the evidence in world famous archaeological museums. The evidence is clear. The evidence is persuasive.

The evidence proves that dinosaurs and man lived together all over the world in the last few thousand years. Now, the Bible is a “type” of sword and in this dinosaur and man conversation we’re having they are the ones who don’t have the facts or the truth. There is a reason why I am smiling:– I AM NOT LEFT HANDED!

Peabody Museum Zoomorphic Stone Heads

Historians say that dragons appear in the history and art of virtually every ancient culture (as do stories of a great flood). Here’s an interesting fact along those lines; no matter what culture a piece of ancient art comes from everyone can instantly recognize a dragon. Isn’t that interesting? Here we have a supposedly completely mythological creature, a product of the imagination of man and culture and yet they agree across geography and time in the salient characteristics of their portrayals with the added peculiarity that everyone knows that they are dragons?

No modern artist who works for a science journal or a museum or is otherwise engaged in depicting dinosaurs from a few bones is going to draw a dragon-like creature. So, although dragons are reptilian, frightening sometimes preternaturally large creatures—and so are dinosaurs they don’t often look much alike when you get down to the details. But here’s the rub when it comes to that; no one living actually knows what dinosaurs looked like.

In prior articles on this topic we’ve often quoted Discover Magazine on this point;

There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster. Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. Discover Magazine, What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like? By William Speed Weed, Christopher Griffith|Friday, September 01, 2000

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/sep/featdino

Of course, Discover Magazine isn’t the only source that admits that science is just guessing when it puts forth a drawing or illustration of a dinosaur—particularly when many dinosaurs are only known from a few bones.

A new book entitled “All Yesterdays: Unique and Speculative Views of Dinosaurs and Other Prehistoric Animals” by paleo artists C.M Koseman and John Conway is a review of dinosaur depictions and misconceptions in science art and a speculation about potential alternate depictions. They are basically letting the reader in on their secret that the work they do is simply informed speculation.


In the photo on the right they freely speculate on how a dinosaur paleontologist might have interpreted the bones (absent muscle and soft parts) of the cow and the housecat (bottom).

This interpretation problem makes it tougher on “crypto-zoo-archaeologists” like me. My hypothesis that man and dinosaur lived during the same age and that the ancient peoples would have left evidence in the form of their art, history and artifacts is complicated by the fact that the work of paleo artists today might not match up with the work of the actual eyewitnesses living in the past.

Thus, for instance a dinosaur in an archaeological museum like Harvard’s Peabody Museum might be perfectly depicted by the ancient artist but not match up with current thinking on how that dinosaur looked and go unrecognized; categorized as zoomorphic, unknown, animal, mythological creature or simply reptile. (Actually my experience is that any depiction recognizable as a dinosaur or one which is deemed too close does not end up in the front room of the museum in any case).

For example, in eyewitness viewings of what I believe are living pterosaurs over the last few years some have described the creature the saw as “almost prehistoric looking”, which could mean that they saw a living creature that did not completely comport with modern illustrations of the creature.

Moche Culture Vase in the Form of…?

In the last few weeks I set out to prove my hypothesis at the Harvard Peabody, online archaeological museum site as well as at other online collection sites. The Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University “is steward to one of the oldest and largest collections of cultural objects in the Western Hemisphere”. Other online collections visited include, the Penn Museum, the Met and several Museums of Central and South America.

Could it be shown that creatures that are recognizable as dinosaurs and Not dragons-in the mythological sense are somehow going unnoticed in their online collections? Can we show how specific types of dinosaurs might have been erroneously depicted? In that case, the depiction would have to be close enough for an identification to be made.

In this article and shall we say “collection” I intend to show once again through the arts of ancient peoples that man and dinosaur lived together within the last 5,000 years—but only to the fair and open minded.

           
The Eyewitness to Recent, Ancient History Dinosaur Collection, Part 1

1)Chasmosaurus at the Museo Larco, Peru


Actually it is not a piece from the Peabody that I wish to start with. It is a piece from the Museo Larco that illustrates the points we have been making about identification and misidentification most clearly. (See complete vessel at top of this article).

The Larco Museum (Spanish: Museo Arqueológico Rafael Larco Herrera) is a privately owned museum of pre-Columbian art, located in the Pueblo Libre District of Lima, Peru. The museum is housed in an 18th-century vice-royal building built over a 7th-century pre-Columbian pyramid.

The Inca civilization spanned the period of 1438 to 1533 in pre-Columbian South America. That would make this piece between 500 to 600 years old.

Inca Pot Water Carrier Lima
Museo Larco, Peru

I believe that the animal atop this Inca water carrier (and atop this article) is a ceratopsian dinosaur of a type similar to Chasmosaurus particularly given the placement of its horn and the shape of its frill. Ceratopsians might have broken down neatly into the categories now suggested by science or they could have been as widely divergent as dogs are today. They may have been sexually dimorphic and animals identified as belonging to another species may have only been sexually dimorphic or juvenile versions of other science-identified species.

“Chasmosaurus (/?kæzm??s?r?s/ KAZ-mo-SAWR-?s) is a genus of ceratopsid dinosaur from the Upper Cretaceous Period of North America. Its name means ‘opening lizard’, referring to the large openings (fenestrae) in its frill (Greek chasma meaning ‘opening’ or ‘hollow’ or ‘gulf’ and sauros meaning ‘lizard’). With a length of 4–5 metres (13–16 ft) and a weight of 2 tonnes (2.2 short tons), Chasmosaurus was a ceratopsian of average size. Like all ceratopsians, it was purely herbivorous. It was initially to be called Protorosaurus, but this name had been previously published for another animal.

All specimens of Chasmosaurus were collected from the Dinosaur Park Formation of the Dinosaur Provincial Park of Alberta, Canada. C. russelli comes from the lower beds of the formation while C. belli comes from middle and upper beds. “…Wikipedia


Let me explain what I believe that you’re looking at. It is a ceratopsian dinosaur similar to the Chasmosaurus. It is 500 years old. The right horn has broken off and is probably what is seen on the animal’s right side from the reader’s perspective.

The heavy ceratopsian tail curls up at the back and the animal fits in terms of body shape and tail for a ceratopsian. The animal has a crest and you should be able to see that the complete head, ending behind the horns includes a solid neck frill ending in a ‘V” shape similar to that of the chasmosaurus. In the photo on the left I have thoughtfully replaced the animals missing horn. The artist took pains to make sure that the ceratopsian toes were outlined for the viewer as well.

I believe what we have here is a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur that differs slightly from what one expects given modern depictions. The beak is slightly less pronounced-but evident. The horns are actually in the exact place on its head as the horns on modern Chasmosaurus depictions. The creature has growths (possibly pre-horn?) growths on the front of its face that are not seen on ceratopsian depictions.

This is clearly a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur by an actual eyewitness some 500 years ago in pre Columbian South America. It should be noted that all the ceratopsia were supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

2)Peabody Museum ”6,000 to 7,000 Year Old” Ceramic Bottle with Bi-Pedal Dinosaur (Iguanodon?) from South America

“Peabody Number: 90-27-30/54866
Display Title: Black ware stirrup spouted vase
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic bottle, stirrup spout, chipped rim, animal effigy, molded body, lying on its side.
Classification:
Stirrup spout
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru
Materials: Ceramic


The earliest ceramics known from the Americas have been found in the lower Amazon Basin. Ceramics from the Caverna de Pedra Pintada, near Santarém, Brazil, have been dated to 7,500 to 5,000 years ago. Ceramics from Taperinha, also near Santarém, have been dated to 7,000 to 6,000 years ago.” Peabody Museum

This appears to me quite clearly to represent some type of bi-pedal theropod dinosaur. Here we show the artifact on its side so that the identification of this dinosaur is more easily made.
The trio below is shown with two versions of the dinosaur iguanodon, a bi-pedal dinosaur which has been found in North America.

Distinctive features of iguanodon include large thumb spikes, which were possibly used for defence against predators, combined with long prehensile fifth fingers able to forage for food…Wikipedia.

Unfortunately that part of the sculpture has been worn away-like noses in Egyptian artifacts. Part of the tail has apparently broken off as well. I believe that this piece represents a bi pedal theropod dinosaur like iguanodon or a relative.

           

3)Postosuchus Sculpted by Pre Columbians From the Period AD 500-1350 at The Walters Art Museum?
The creature displayed at the top of the pre Columbian incense burner could be called a dragon, a crocodilian (the museum I.D.) or a mythical creature–but no one who believes that dinosaurs and their alleged ancestors died out more than 65 million years ago would ever think of this as a recently extinct, living creature.

Taking that point of view it is easy to ignore the reptilian/dinosaur like armor, the teeth which no lizard ever sported and the distinct horns. In looking at the creature carefully with the assumption that a living creature was being depicted a tentative crypto-zoo-archaeological identification is that of an archosaur like postosuchus.


Postosuchus, meaning “crocodile from Post”, is an extinct genus of rauisuchian reptiles…Postosuchus is a member of the clade Pseudosuchia, the lineage of archosaurs that includes modern crocodilians (the other main group of archosaurs is Avemetatarsalia, the lineage that includes non-avian dinosaurs and their descendants, birds). Its name refers to Post Quarry, a place in Texas where many fossils of the type species, P. kirkpatricki, were found…

Although the heavy build of the skeleton suggests that Postosuchus walked on all four limbs, the extreme shortness of the forelimbs relative to the hind limbs is a strong indication that Postosuchus was able to walk on two legs…Postosuchus possessed heterodonty dentition, which means each tooth was different in size and shape from the others.

A feature of the skull of postosuchus is a “crest” over each eye. Modern artists have had to decide how to draw or illustrate that skull feature and most have not significantly featured them. This piece from the Walters Art Museum has “eye crests” like those of postosuchus which are more clearly featured as crests above each eye.

In other pieces we’ve noted the three toes of a depiction which were similar to dinosaur toes. Postosuchus actually had a different manus and pes than did the dinosaurs. In the minds of scientists postosuchus and its relatives actually preceded the dinosaurs. Of course, most creationists believe that they lived at the same time.


The Museum Description: This incense burner is topped with the portrayal of a caiman or other member of the Crocodylidae family, one of the frequent animal spirit forms of Central American shamans. Its particularly aggressive stance may refer to the practitioner’s battle against supernatural forces.

Many such incense burners were found ritually broken on the slopes of a principal volcano on the island of Ometepe in Lake Nicaragua, the incense burner lid with its smoke issuing from the top mimicking an active volcano.


Among peoples from southern Nicaragua to Mesoamerica the earth was likened to the back of a crocodile floating in the primordial sea, its dorsal scutes being the volcanic north-south backbone that defines the continents of the Western Hemisphere. This incense burner, then, constitutes a profound ritual vessel pertaining to the transition from the natural to the supernatural realms and a symbolic model of the ancient Costa Rican world.


Uh, huh. That’s pretty complicated. Maybe it’s just a depiction of some exceptional local fauna of the time; an or perhaps a small dinosaur of unknown type. Certainly if this same depiction appeared on a site featuring artists renditions of dinosaurs this piece would not be out of place.

The photos above show comparisons of the ancient art work with modern depictions of postosuchus (without the strong “crests” and body armor and in comparison to the skull and the full skeleton of postosuchus. The comparisons appear to me to show a similarity of this depiction with that of one of the archosaurs–such as postosuchus. The feet are not those of a dinosaurs (many are three toed) but the feet of the animal depicted do correspond to that of our identification.

           

4)Nayarit Chinesco “Embryonic Dog” May Be Baby Sauropod


Nayarit is a state in western Mexico. The Nayarit culture from which this artifact comes is from the period 300 B.C. to 400 A.D.—or even older. This piece is said to represent an embryonic dog. Another identification would seem to be in order for this piece.

           
For one thing, dogs do not have necks this long. Here I’ve shown it in comparison to an animal that really did have such a long neck; the sauropod dinosaur.

Nayarit Chinesco Pottery Painted Embryonic Dog
Online Collections Auction
Auction date November 2012
Pre-Columbian, West Mexico, Ca. 300 BC to 200 AD.
Buff pottery, unique representation, elastic form.
Surface has traces of original polychrome color.
Provenance: Ex-Dr. R. Boyd Stifler, Vanderwagen NM.
Rare specimen Authenticity Guaranteed
Condition:Some wear to surface and with nice dendrite
deposits.”..Online Collections

Recently a sauropod embryo was found and the sauropod embryo depicted comes from the “Tiniest Giants: Discovering Dinosaur Eggs”.

Sauropods are supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

5)Ancient Pueblo Culture (1200 B.C.-1500 A.D.) Native Americans of What is Now Arizona Craft Dinosaur Named Aetosaur; Most of Whose Fossils Have Been Found in Arizona

           
Aetosaur Skeleton Top and Ancient Pueblo Artifact below.


“The Pueblo people are Native American people in the Southwestern United States comprising several different language groups and two major cultural divisions, one organized by matrilineal kinship systems and the other having a patrilineal system.

These determine the clan membership of children, and lines of inheritance and descent. Their traditional economy is based on agriculture and trade. At the time of Spanish encounter in the 16th century, they were living in villages that the Spanish called pueblos, meaning “towns””…Wikipedia

This piece comes from a 1936 expedition to the Hopi reservation and was determined to be from one of the Pueblo Native American cultures. It is described by the Peabody Museum as “zoomorphic”. Looking at a list of dinosaur fossils found in Arizona one can quickly see that there is a similarity between the archaeological piece and –the aetosaur. (Angle of aetosaur skeleton head adjusted for comparison purposes.)

“Aetosaurs order name Aetosauria from Greek, ????? (aetos, “eagle”) and ?????? (sauros, “lizard”)) are an extinct order of heavily armoured, medium- to large-sized Late Triassic herbivorous archosaurs. They have small heads, upturned snouts, erect limbs, and a body covered by plate-like scutes. All aetosaurs belong to the family Stagonolepididae.

Most fossils have been found from Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas…Wikipedia

.

Here is a sobering fact for those of us who can accept the fact that the ancient Pueblo people of Arizona actually saw and depicted an aetosaur which supposedly lived from 200 million years ago becoming extinct 65 million years or more ago;


“Since their armoured plates are often preserved and are abundant in certain localities, aetosaurs serve as important Late Triassic tetrapod index fossils. Many aetosaurs had wide geographic ranges, but their stratigraphic ranges were relatively short. Therefore, the presence of particular aetosaurs can accurately date a site that they are found in.”

You see the problem? Aetosaurs were roaming around the North American continent during the span of the Pueblo peoples; 1200 B.C. to 1500 A.D. and one of their artists memorialized the aetosaur in ceramic.

Peabody Number: 36-131-10/8060
Display Title: Zooomorphic black on white potsherd–animal form
Inventory Description: Ceramic, zoomorphic figurine, with tail, opened mouth, two feet, black painted design on back and sides
Classification: Figurine
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Pueblo
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arizona/Navajo County/Hopi Reservation/Antelope Mesa/Awatovi
Intrasite: Test 14
Geo-Locale: Antelope Mesa
Materials: Ceramic Pigment
Provenance: Dr. John Otis Brew (1936)
Provenance: Peabody Museum Expedition (1936)

           
6) Crested Hadrosaur Depiction by the Ancient Peoples of Costa Rica at the Peabody Museum. (Modern Artists May Need to Put Some Weight on the Bones of these Depictions)

Crested Dinosaurs are fairly easy to recognize. Most of the crested dinosaurs are from the Lambeosaurinae of the hadrosaur group. The hadrosaurs were also known as the duck billed dinosaurs.


This depiction forms the legs of an ancient pottery piece. The pot is from Costa Rica, Central America. The crests on the various types of lambosaurines differed in size and shape even among the same species and they likely differed due to age and due to sexual dimorphism.

The hadrosaurs depicted have relatively small, round crests. Here we compare them to a number of known lambeosaurines including corythsaurus.


It is interesting that the depictions are clearly of the same animal but that the portraits differ. The ancient depictions are similar to modern ones except for the apparent weight of the creatures and the size of the eyes depicted.

“Archaeologists now know that civilization existed in Costa Rica for thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus, and evidence of human occupation in the region dates back 10,000 years. Among the cultural mysteries left behind by the area’s pre-Columbian inhabitants are thousands of perfectly spherical granite bolas that have been found near the west coast.


The sizes of these inimitable relics range from that of a baseball to that of a Volkswagen bus. Ruins of a large, ancient city complete with aqueducts were recently found east of San Jose, and some marvelously sophisticated gold and jade work was being wrought in the southwest as far back as 1,000 years ago. Some archeological sites in the central highlands and Nicoya peninsula have shown evidence of influence from the Mexican Olmec and Nahuatl civilizations.

By the time Columbus arrived, there were four major indigenous tribes living in Costa Rica. The east coast was the realm of the Caribs, while the Borucas, Chibchas, and Diquis resided in the southwest. “..geographia.com

Peabody Number: 26-44-20/C9956
Display Title: Small pottery vessel
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic complete tripod jar, zoomorphic rattle feet (1 missing)
Classification: Jar
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
Central America/Costa Rica

           

7)A New Look at Dicynodont Therapsids Like Moschop from the Ancient Peoples Living I Peru, South America


The identity of this animal portrait was unknown apparently and thus it was given the general description “animal effigy” by the Harvard Peabody Museum. Was this animal purely a mythological one seen only in the imaginary eye of the artist—or was it seen with the artist’s actual eyes?

As you will see the depiction of the living therapsid is actually close enough to modern depictions of these types of creatures as to be readily identified. In appearance it is close to that of therapsids such as moschops which we know from fossils found in South Africa.

‘Moschops (Greek for “calf face”) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Guadalupian epoch, around 268-260 million years ago. Therapsids are synapsids which were at one time the dominant land animals. It was around 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in) long..

….Moschops was heavily built, and had short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. Moschops mostly ate plants, but sometimes ate meat. The forelegs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind legs were under the body, like those of a mammal.” Wikipedia

Peabody Number: 46-77-30/5868
Display Title: Pottery animal figurine
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy
Classification: Whistle
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru/La Libertad Region///Sausal
Materials: Ceramic


Here we show the ancient, ceramic artifact in comparison to moschop and to another dicynodont therapsid. Moschops and therapsids similar to him supposedly went extinct before the dinosaurs even evolved. Clearly of this ancient Peruvian artifact represents one of these creatures something is extremely wrong with the evolutionary time scale.
           

8) Quapaw’s “Underwater Panther” from the 1500”s Could In Fact Be an Eyewitness Depiction of Dinosaur Such As Tenontosaurus


According to Wikipedia the Mississippian culture was a mound building group of indigenous people who lived in the Midwestern, Eastern, and Southeastern United States from approximately 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. The collectors at Artsmia.org believe it to be a depiction of a mythological creature called an underwater panther. That makes these people seem “mystical” all right.

But what if it is an accurate depiction of an animal living at the time that we would call a dinosaur-rendered somewhat invisible as a depiction because modern versions of the creature differ greatly? Here is the museum description:

“The prominent colored swirls and eye motifs mark this animal as an Underwater Panther, one of the primary beings in the ancient Mississippian belief system and that of their descendants. The swirling pattern on its sides signifies water, while the eye markings allude to the animal’s unusually keen vision.

Red and white were symbolically significant colors that represented fundamental oppositions such as peace and war, light and dark and the on-going struggle between the celestial and subterranean realms. Underwater Panthers belonged to the subterranean and possessed great supernatural power. Their significance led Mississippian and subsequent artists to depict them frequently in many forms and media, including three-dimensional sculptures like this vessel. “

The toes of this creature appear to be triple toed-similar to a dinosaur. Its tail is very thick in the way dinosaur tails are often illustrated by modern paleo artists. I took a look to see what types of dinosaur fossils were prominent with respect to quadruped dinosaurs in those parts of the United States.


Here we show the “underwater panther” in comparison to tenontosaurus a genus of medium to large ornnithopod dinosaurs. It should be noted that there were a number of ornnithopod dinosaurs found to have lived in those parts of north America which would have had similar body shapes.

The genus tenontosaurus is known from the late Aptian to Albian ages of the middle Cretaceous period sediments of western North America, dating between 115 to 108 million years ago. It was formerly thought to be a ‘hypsilophodont’, but since Hypsilophodontia is no longer considered a clade, it is now considered to be a very primitive iguanodont.

The teeth of this portrait do give me pause. The point is however not that we know the specific type of dinosaur that was sculpted, but rather that it is more likely that it is a dinosaur being depicted here rather than an underwater panther (which itself sounds like a cryptid).

Vessel
Artist Unknown (Quapaw)
(United States, North America), c. 1500
Ceramic, pigment
9 1/8 x 10 3/8 x 5 1/4 in. (23.18 x 26.35 x 13.34 cm)
The William Hood Dunwoody Fund 2004.33

           

9)Metropolitan Museum of Asian Art’s Sauropod Dinosaur from Iran 250 B.C. to 225 A.D.


This artifact is from the Metropolitan Museum of Asian art and is labeled “zoomorphic”. I’m somewhat surprised that they didn’t call it a camel. Clearly however it is a sculpted ceramic in the form of a sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago according to science. This piece was estimated to have been made between 250 B.C. and 225 A.ZD. That period obviously covers the time of Christ.

Zoomorphic vessel
250 B.C.E.- 225 C.E.
Parthian period
Ceramic
H: 15.2 W: 28.4 D: 12.1 cm
Northern Iran, Northern Iran S1987.944

           

10) Ulisse Aldrovandi’s Detailed Drawing of A Long Tailed Pterosaur; Before They Were “Discovered” By Science

Ulisse Aldrovandi (also Aldrovandus) was born in 1522 and died in 1605. He is sometimes referred to as the father of natural history studies. By profession he was a professor of philosophy but eventually became one of the first professors of the natural sciences at Bologna (no offense intended).


Ulisse died 250 years before the first pterosaur was discovered by a scientist and he mistakenly thought it was a sea going creature. It was not until the beginning of the 19th century that science realized that pterosaurs were flying creatures.

“The first pterosaur fossil was described by the Italian naturalist Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini misinterpreted his specimen as a seagoing creature that used its long front limbs as paddles.

A few scientists continued to support the aquatic interpretation even until 1830, when the German zoologist Johann Georg Wagler suggested that Pterodactylus used its wings as flippers. Georges Cuvier first suggested that pterosaurs were flying creatures in 1801, and coined the name “Ptero-dactyle” in 1809 for the specimen recovered in Germany.” …Wikipedia

After his death his book Serpentum, et draconum historiæ Serpentum, et Draconum was published. In it, was a drawing supposedly from life (well it was dead!) of a dragon which comports very well with a long tailed, crested pterosaur especially given that Aldrovandi was a philosopher and naturalist –and not an artist.

The interesting thing about Aldrovandi’s pterosaur is that it has the crest of the pteranodon and the tail of one of the long tailed rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Although we don’t know this exact pterosaur from science it closely matches modern day eyewitness descriptions and drawings of a long tailed pterosaur. (There are long tail crested pterosaurs known to science but none with the classic bone sticking out the back of its head kind).

Note what might look like another set of small wings at the legs of Aldrovandi’s dragon. It is shown here in the more modern drawing between the pteranodon’s legs. That is called the uropatagium; and since it does not appear on birds it is one indication that Aldrovandi actually saw what he drew.

“some pterosaur groups had a membrane that stretched between the legs, possibly connecting to or incorporating the tail, called the uropatagium; the extent of this membrane isn’t certain, as studies on Sordes seem to suggest that it simply connected the legs but did not involve the tail (rendering it a cruropatagium). It is generally agreed though that non-pterodactyloid pterosaurs had a broader uro/cruropatagium, with pterodactyloids only having membranes running along the legs; Pteranodon in particular might have developed/redeveloped an uropatagium, given the structure of the tail”..Wikipedia

The picture on the right (above) shows Aldrovandi’s dragon compared to Eskin Kuhn’s drawing (bottom, right) from his eyewitness sighting in the 1970’s. Kuhn was an artist and a soldier stationed at Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. His “pteranodon” had both the backwards facing “crest” and the long tail with tail vain of the rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Top right is a modern drawing of a pteranodon without the long tail. Aldrovandi has the tail, crest and bat like wings of a pterosaur.
           

11) Peabody Museum Seeks to Make an Ancient Veraguas Culture Dinosaur Evolve Into a Bird Right Before Our Eyes

The “Bird” effigy ceramic whistle (middle) is from the ancient Veraguas Culture of Panama. That culture inhabited Panama from approximately 700 A.D. to 1530 A.D.

“This culture inhabited the central region of what is now province of Veraguás in Panama. The area extends from the Pacific to the Caribbean coast and includes a number of islands. The climate here is mainly humid and tropical, and the landscape includes wooded areas and valleys suitable for agriculture, as well as high mountains, hilly areas, and coastal lowlands.” Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino


The ceramic sculpture with three legs does not have the correct number for either the bird (two) or the crested hadrosaur (four). My take is that given the teeth (which birds do not have) and the thick tail this is not a depiction of a bird but rather of a crested hadrosaur such as corythosaurus.

The single combined front legs represent the two front legs of the creature and this is not uncommon with pre Columbian art. One can certainly decide for his or her self.

Peabody Number: 39-90-20/6461
Display Title: Pottery bird effigy whistle. Light brown, probably faded from red.
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy with tripod legs
Classification: Ceramic
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Veraguas
Geography/Provenience: Central America/Panama/Veraguas

           

12)Plesiosaur or Dinosaur? Mythological or Cryptozoological?


Here are a number of ancient artifacts that do beg the question; sea monster or dinosaur. It may not be clear what animal the artist has in mind but I believe that they so clearly mirror what modern day artists see as dinosaurs and marine reptiles that they simply cannot be imaginary creatures.

The ancient artist in each case intended to represent an actual living creature and they must have expected the beholder to recognize what the creature was as well. In each of these examples only a portion of the animal is sculpted making the crypto detective work more difficult.

In situations like these the museum or the auction house usually leaves this kind of speculation to the viewer but often uses the term “zoomorphic” as the description. Often as well they will name a creature for which if it were truly what the ancient artist intended he/she would have proven to be a terrible artist. That should drive down prices!

Christie’s auction house described this artifact as a horse which may seem reasonable at first but no horse would have that long a neck. Alternative identifications include the plesiosaur or a dinosaur. Plesiosaurs of course supposedly went extinct around 65 million years ago as did it is claimed, the dinosaur.

The artifact is thought to have come from the period of up to 1,000 Years before Christ.

Christie’s
• Overview
• Features
Lot Description
ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TERRACOTTA ZOOMORPHIC RHYTON
CIRCA LATE 1ST MILLENNIUM B.C.

One in the form of a seated camel, black glazed, carrying two jars on either side of its back; another in the form of a horse, a strap handle joining the rim to the back of the vessel, a perforation at the top of the head forming the spout, 16 cm. high max.; an Amlash terracotta steatopygous idol, possibly 2nd Millenium B.C., 20.5 cm. high, mounted (repaired); and a bull rhyton, not ancient, 15 cm. high (4)

This item is described as a “serpent” effigy bowl; perhaps a “sea serpent”?


This pottery piece has been categorized as Neeley’s Ferry which are artifacts of one of the ancient group of State of Arkansas cultures. Ancient peoples are thought to have lived in Arkansas between 600 B.C. and 1600 A.D.

The Peabody specifically dated the artifact between 1350 and 1550.

This piece is further described as an earthen bowl, animal. The animal has a head with teeth giving the appearance of either a sea creature with long winding tail or perhaps a dinosaur.


Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21621
Display Title: Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl head and tail start on body & on short axis
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic, complete vessel, bowl, mended, serpent head and tail
Object Description: Earthen bowl, animal. Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl, head and tail start on body, tail turned on itself, head and tail on short axis.
Classification: Bowl
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Halcomb’s Mounds; Arkansas State Intrasite: Grave, 18 inches deep; 2 feet from river

Above shows our “sea monster” at another angle which provides additional detail concerning the shape of the head and tail. By the way, seals have fins and flippers not “tails”.

This final piece is also from the Neeley’s Ferry mounds and is described as a “ceramic effigy vessel of zoomorphic design”.


This artifact was found in a gravesite buried three feet below ground level and has been dated from the period between 1350-1550.

As you can see it is very reminiscent of modern paleoartist’s depiction of theropod or meat eating dinosaurs. Of course, we only have the head but is it possible that the artist saw and knew about a then living version of such a creature?

Or is it more believable that this is an effigy of a mythological animal which accidently reminds us of modern ideas about how dinosaurs looked?

Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21195
Display Title: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomorphic design
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomophic design
Classification: Effigy
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience:North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Neeley’s Ferry Mounds; Arkansas State # 3CS24
Intrasite: Grave, 3 feet deep Geo-Locale: Saint Francis River, West side of
Materials: Ceramic
Collector: Edwin Curtiss (01/01/1880)

           

Bonus: Nicoya, Pre Columbian Incense Burner Maker Tops Reptilian Artifact with Feet of a Theropod Dinosaur Which is Quite A Feat for Someone Who Missed Dinosaurs by 65M Years



Top left is a pre Columbian Censer (Incensario), from the 10th–12th century. There are many examples of this type of pre Columbian censer topped by a dragon/dinosaur. The excellent example at the top left is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you take the time you can see the full body of a quadruped, dinosaur like creature with an extremely ornate crest or horns. This is typical of these artifacts.

No matter how un crocodile like the animal perched at the top is this type of vessel is known as either alligator or crocodile ware and elaborate stories have been concocted by archaeologists about the sacred nature of crocodiles and alligators in the pre Columbian cultures. Here’s a quote describing the object, top left by the Met.

The flare-footed, spherical bowl of this ceramic censer is enhanced, in silhouette, by the flamboyance of its chimney. Textured, appliqué bands encircle and emphasize the tall smoothness of the chimney. On the perforated cap rests an elaborate crested crocodilian. Smoke from the incense that was burned in the bowl escaped through the holes of the cap and from openings in the animal’s body. The rhythmical texture of the appliqué visually unites it with the surface of the creature’s body where the nubby portions are taken to represent the scutes of the reptile.

Both textured appliqués and scutes are surfaced in white. The spiky crest that surrounds the head is customarily found in incensarios of this period. Crocodilians frequently appear in Costa Rican art, strongly suggesting the supernatural import of these creatures in ancient times…The Met

On the Top right is a photo of one of those pre Columbian artifacts, Nicoya, an incense burner.
what is interesting about the artifact on the top, right is that a close up of the animals feet (bottom left) reveal and striking similarity of its feet as sculpted to that of the theropod dinsoaurs (bottom, right) and unlike those of lizards-or crocodiles.

           

Conclusion: There are hundreds if not thousands of artifacts in museums around the world containing representations of extinct creatures that we now called dinosaurs. The most obvious examples are labeled as fakes and are in provide collections.

Those that are not obvious dinosaurs are labeled dragons, unknown, zoomorphic, mythological, animal etc. Of course many artifacts are just those things. The issue is that when a group (archaeologists) are absolutely convinced that these animals lived millions of years ago all evidence will be viewed to reflect that belief and those that don’t will be reinterpreted, labeled or hidden away.

In any case if you should find that even one of the items in our collection is a dinosaur-or that a dinosaur is the most likely explanation that one should be enough to make you question the current scientific history control. But we understand that bucking the system is difficult to do.

Since I began with a quote from the Princess Bride it might be appropriate to finish with a modified version of another such quote:

Big Science: We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. (not actually a believer)
Believer: You mean, you’ll put down your rock and I’ll put down my sword, and we’ll try to convince each other like civilized people-with facts and evidence?
Big Science; [brandishing rock (public opinion, science mythology, ridicule] I could just wipe you out now.
Believer: Frankly, I think the odds are slightly in your favor at hand fighting.
Big Science: It’s not my fault being the biggest and the strongest. I don’t even exercise.

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus? Plus; Remarkarble Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 24 2012

Photo: How to Train Your Dragon? Viking vs Brachiosaurus.

“Look at Behemoth, which I made just as I made you; it eats grass like an ox. Its strength is in its loins, and its power in the muscles of its belly. It makes its tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are knit together. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron. It is the first of the great acts of God— only its Maker can approach it with the sword.” …Job 40 15-19 New Revised Standard Version

“Megasthenes writeth, that there be serpents among the Indians to that bignesse, that they are able to swallow stags or buls all whole….Attilius Regulaus, generall under the Romanes, during the warres against the Carthaginians, assailed a Serpent neere the river Bagrada, which caried in length 120 foot…” Book 8 Pliny’s Natural History

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus?
by Chris Parker
Copyright 2012

Photo: From the latter part of this article; fully explained below.


Dragons; sometimes huge, reptilian, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – are reported not as mythological but as real in every ancient culture on every continent. Of course, those creatures that we now call dinosaurs were also sometimes huge, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – that lived on every continent. (Technically pterosaurs are not considered dinosaurs).

Among those ancient cultures who described living dragons were the Norse and that subset of the Norse culture the Vikings.

The Vikings

Painting: Just to be clear; the “dragon” on the ship’s prow is not our subject today.


“The Vikings (from Old Norse víkingr) were the Norse explorers, warriors, merchants, and pirates who raided, traded, explored and settled in wide areas of Europe, Asia and the North Atlantic islands from the late 8th to the mid-11th century.

These Norsemen used their famed longships to travel as far east as Constantinople and the Volga River in Russia, and as far west as Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland, and as far south as Nekor. This period of Viking expansion – known as the Viking Age – forms a major part of the medieval history of Scandinavia, Great Britain, Ireland and the rest of Medieval Europe.

Popular conceptions of the Vikings often differ from the complex picture that emerges from archaeology and written sources. A romanticised picture of Vikings as Germanic noble savages began to take root in the 18th century, and this developed and became widely propagated during the 19th-century Viking revival.

The received views of the Vikings as violent brutes or intrepid adventurers owe much to the modern Viking myth which had taken shape by the early 20th century. Current popular representations are typically highly clichéd, presenting the Vikings as familiar caricatures.

    The Norse Dragon Tradition

Dragons are common in Norse lore; we associate viking raiders with dragon headed ships. However this is slightly misleading because Norse lore made no distinction between dragons per se and serpents. A serpent was simply a dragon without wings.

In Nordic mythology, the figure of the dragon was often used as symbol of material greed, and harbringers of destruction, that is to say: they acquired a clearly negative symbolism, (unlike some aspects of the dragon in Eastern mythology). Clearly this makes them excellent figureheads for Viking raiders!

One of the most important Norse dragons is Nithhogr. This creature lives at the base of the world tree Yggdrasil and gnaws at the roots, attempting to destroy it. Nithhogr also devours the corpses of the dead. The world serpent Jormungandr would also be classed as a dragon in Norse lore. Jormungandr – the Midgard serpent – lives in the waters curled in a circle round the world and biting his own tail.

Another well-known Norse dragon tale is that of Fafnir, who was turned into a dragon by his greed and who was slain by Siegfried. The hero Scandanavian hero Beowulf also fought dragons. Some have classed grendel and his mother as dragons, however they are more usually considered to be some form of troll”.Dragonrama

An Antique Viking Diplodocus?


This “ANCIENT VIKING BRONZE ZOOMORPHIC PENDANT,RARE” is actually a pendant currently on sale on Ebay. It is a bronze, zoomorphic depiction of a long necked, quadruped with curled tail used as a connection for the wire to be passed through for a wearer. The item actually has “bumpy skin” in the manner of the sauropod dinosaurs we believe it represents.

Not much information is provided about the object other than that which has been provided above. The location of the seller is Latvia, the seller is gint5812 who has a 100% approval rating. I’m not providing a link because the item has been sold and I have no way of knowing how long the link will be active.

The item is a “pendant”, approximately 3 inches from tail to nose. Is the item a real, antique Viking pendant? we can’t prove it is, however the surest way to have an object declared a fake is to present it in the shape of a dinosaur.

We have additional views of the object as well as comparisons with modern depictions of a certain type of sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs are probably the most easily recognized type of dinosaur. They are large, long necked with a stocky body and a long tail. However, there were differences among the various types of sauropods and we believe that rather than just generally identifying this ancient depiction as a sauropod I believe we can go even further and identify the specific type of sauropod dinosaur that is being represented.

Of course, sauropod dinosaurs supposedly became extinct over 65 million years ago.


Right we compare a side view of the artifact along with a side view of a brachiosaurus skull and a modern version of brachiosaurus.

Brachiosaurus has a distinctive shaped head among the sauropods; it has a “bulb” or a large bulge on the top frontal portion of its skull. Various artists and paleontologists have represented that bulge in a number of ways in modern depictions. The skull of diplodocus is longer and more horse like than is the skull of brachiosaurus. Camarsaurus and Euhelopus have more rounded skulls. We believe that this ancient, Viking artifact specifically represents what science calls the brachiosaurus today. A chart showing these sauropod skulls is provided a bit further down in this post.

A potential issue (among some would say, many) is that brachiosaurus is supposed to be an American dinosaur even though “related” dinosaurs and potential brachiosaurus remains have been found in Africa and Europe.

Does this prove that these Vikings made it to America? I’m not serious. One of the many differences that creationists have with evolutionists is that the need for isolated populations creates a bias for continent only dinosaurs. Creationists are not surprised when the same species appears on many or even all continents.


This grouping (photo) is not from Wikipedia and provides a comparison between the heads of modern depictions of brachiosaurus from fossil remains and a possible ancient eyewitness depiction.

“Brachiosaurus is a genus of sauropod dinosaur from the Jurassic Morrison Formation of North America. It was first described by Elmer S. Riggs in 1903 from fossils found in the Grand River Canyon (now Colorado River) of western Colorado, in the United States. Riggs named the dinosaur Brachiosaurus altithorax, declaring it “the largest known dinosaur”. Brachiosaurus had a proportionally long neck, small skull, and large overall size, all of which are typical for sauropods. However, the proportions of Brachiosaurus are unlike most sauropods.

The forelimbs were longer than the hindlimbs, which result in a steeply inclined trunk, making the overall body shape reminiscent of a modern giraffe. Also, while the tail is a typical long dinosaur tail, it was relatively short for a sauropod.

Brachiosaurus is the namesake genus of the family Brachiosauridae, which includes a handful of other similar sauropods. Much of what is known by laypeople about Brachiosaurus is in fact based on Giraffatitan brancai, a species of brachiosaurid dinosaur from the Tendaguru Formation of Tanzania that was originally described by German paleontologist Werner Janensch as a species of Brachiosaurus. Recent research shows that the differences between the type species of Brachiosaurus and the Tendaguru material are significant enough that the African material should be placed in a separate genus. Several other potential species of Brachiosaurus have been described from Africa and Europe, but none of them are thought to belong to Brachiosaurus at this time.”…Wikipedia

The Upshot


How do we account for the close match of the head of this artifact with the actual skull of brachiosaurus? Is this some quadrupedal, dragon like, reptile like (with “reptile” skin”) and frankly brachiosaurus like object nevertheless a wholly mythological depiction? Is that the simplest explanation or is it more likely that the maker of this artifact was familiar enough with the animal to make even a stylized form of it–which others would also recognize?

There must be an infinite number of mythological animal shapes from which an artist could choose from. Wouldn’t it be too much of a coincidence to believe that a purely mythological animal had nearly exact feature matches with a creature that allegedly became extinct 65 million years ago? “Behold now behemoth”!

Just for Kicks, Two Additional Viking Sauropods?


The same seller has another artifact, also described as an ancient Viking Zoomorphic bronze pendant, (rare). The location of the object is also Latvia.

The bidding has closed at $140.00. This artifact has the “telltale” head bulge on top of its head.

   

SOLID 830 SILVER DRAGON TEA SET 1892 ANTIQUE NORWEGIAN

This piece can be associated with the seven others that we are showing below because they all clearly represent the same long necked creature. We are making what we believe is the proper identfication below.


“A stunning rare Norwegian sterling silver tea set. It is hallmarked with the 830S standard mark and the makers mark of David Andersen, Christiania (the name for Oslo pre 1924), and the date 1892. For those unaware Andersen is regarded as Norway’s most sought after maker. It has been beautifully made being designed around a dragon theme. The teapot has a cast dragon spout and handle and cast dragon feet, the sugar bowl and cream jug have dragon handles and feet. Each piece has been engraved DK or KD as they are entwined.

Photo: Right 1910 Sauropod Drawing


It is in outstanding condition being free from dings splits and repairs. The pot handle wobbles a little due to the shrinkage of the natural insulator rings but this is very easy for a silversmith to put right and there are of course a couple of faint marks but nothing of any significance”.

This piece sold for approximately $2,200. The date of 1892 means that it was created some 15 years after the bones were intially discovered in 1877. The head of the “dragon” matches the other six dragons from across time and around the world that we show below.

We do not need to suppose that David Anderson the maker actually saw a live sauropod-only that at that through that time the depiction of this dinosaur was known and rather consistently drawn and sculpted. The detail and style of depictions of these dinosaurs at tha time were nothing like the current versions of these creatures.
   
Remarkable Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda Across Time and Continents (How to Terrain Your Dragons?)

Here’s that promised sauropod skull chart. Notice that cranial bulge on the skull of brachiosaurus? If there were in fact ancient depictions of this sauropod might we not notice today the long neck, dragon nature, long tail and the telltale head bulge? see story above.


We have been noting for some time that man and sauropod certainly interacted in the recent past.

Although in most respects these creatures are quite similar there are characteristics of the skull that might allow us to show not only that man was an eyewitness to living examples of these creatures but with specific genera of the sauropoda!

The 5,300 Year Old Mesopotamian Diplodocus on an ancient cylinder seal.

This ancient cylinder seal, currently housed at the Louvre Museum portrays sauropod like creatures as well as giant “birds” or pterosaurs. The seal is from Mesopotamia, approximately 3300 B.C. (Moortgart, Anton, The Art of Ancient Mesopotamia, 1969, plate 292., presumably seen by the artist.


I would ask that the interested reader note the points of similarity between a close-up of the “sauropod” depiction created by rolling the cylinder with the skull of Diplodocus Longus. This is the basis for me to call this creature and the consistent comparisons below diplodocus depictions.

    

Tang Dynasty Euhelopus

The Euhelopus skull is shown in the chart above. It is the skull in the top, left of the chart. Its skull is more rounded than that of either brachiosaurus or diplodocus. The artifact shown is more than 2,000 years more recent and on an entirely different continent.

Euhelopus; Source: Thinkquest.org

One of the big plant-eating dinosaurs similar to Camarasaurus, Euhelopus, or “good marsh foot,” had a longer neck and nose. Like Camarasaurus, it had strong teeth that grew around its jaws.


Other dinosaurs of this type had teeth growing only in front. Euhelopus had large nostrils on top of its head. Because of this, some scientists think it had a long trunk. That would have made it look very strange.

Photo: Collection description: Tang Dynasty (618 A.D.-906 A.D.) nephrite jade finial in the shape of a bird’s head (sic). It was probably used as a handle for a knife or other such implement. There is a bit of calcification on the jade, but it is an exquisite piece. It’s in a private collection on sale for $5,500.00

Both Camarasaurus and Euhelopus were camarasaurid (chambered lizard) dinosaurs, with hollow chambers in the backbone.

Euhelopus was a little slimmer than Camarasaurus, but large members of the family may have weighed as much as 24 tons. The biggest could have been up to 50 feet in length – without trunk. From fossil remains, scientists believed they were at home in marshy land at the bank of muddy rivers or in swamps.

They would have been safer there than on dry or wooded land where big flesh eater roamed.

Location: Shandong, People’s Republic of China
Size: Length- 50 feet (15m)
Classification: Family-Camarasauridae
Suborder-Sauropodomorpha
Order-Saurischia
Time: Late Jurassic


It may not be possible to readily identify the specific similarity of the Euhelopus sauropod depiction with that of the Tang Dynasty artifact. On the right we’ve placed the unedited drawing of the Euhelopus skull (except that we tinted it red) on top of the artifact for comparison. What do you think? Bird or sauropod?

    

Diplodocus, Right to Left, Around the World and Across Culture and Eras-Click to enlarge photo. 

We believe that each of these depictions is of diplodocus, which has a flatter skull than does Brachiosaurus or the other rounder headed sauropods, Camarsarus and Euhelopus. There is a remarkable consistency between the depictions, whatever it is that is in the artist’s eye. The depictions span a time period beginning 5,300 years ago through the Acambaro depiction of possibly the last 1,000 years.


From left to Right:(A)This is another version of the Mesopotamian cylinder seal (colorized). 3,300 B.C. Currently housed at Louvre Museum.

(B) Coffee Pot. By: Unidentified artist, Portuguese (Lisbon)
19th century, about 1825-1850 Metal; silver, wooden handle 29.5 x 26.7
Curved steamed body, 4-sided, heavy moulding below long contracted neck. Flattened domed cover. On 4 claw-ball feet. Curved spout flat at back, with animal’s head tip. Angular wooden handle. Cast parrot on ball, finial screwed to cover. Bands of floral repousse at base, above and below mid-moulding, at neck and on cover.
Museum of Fine Arts, Boston

(C)From the Vietnamese Bronze Age: 3rd century A.D. Cast bronze. Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Dongson culture.

(D)Bronze Ladle with “dragon head” handle. Han dynasty(220 B.C. to approx 220 A.D… Chinaweb
(E)Acambaro Mexico. Carbon dated to 1,500 to 4,000 years old. http://www.omniology.com/ManyDinos.jpg

(F)Record ID: HAMP-9A5B16
Object type: BRIDLE FITTING
Broad period: EARLY MEDIEVAL
County: HAMPSHIRE
Workflow stage: Awaiting validation
A slightly corroded fragment from a late early-medieval/Anglo-Scandinavian cast copper-alloy cheekpiece (c. 11th century AD). The fragment is formed of a curved Ringerike style animal head and neck in profile, possibly a dragon or sea monster. The cheekpiece is flat and the neck is long and the head is set at roughly right angles to it. On the outer edge of the curve is a recessed protrusion, broadly semicircular with a small central knop and suggestions of losses behind. At the end of the head is a recurving hook, perhaps representing a horn. Below are three small lobed protrusions …

The piece (F) on the far right is Scandavavian, from the 11th century A.D. The piece on the far left (A) is from 3300 B.C.-and yet from left to right the open minded can see that it is always the same creature that is being depicted; long necked, fleshy nosed and often bearded.

(G) 1892 Norwegian Tea Set. (Described above)

A word about the noses. It seems that the noses portrayed here for diplodocus are “fleshy” when compared with modern depictions. Here is a idea why the ancient depictions could be more accurate.

Study Paints New Picture of Dinosaur’s Nose. John Roach for National Geographic News August 2, 2001

A new study suggests that anyone who sits down to draw a detailed picture of what dinosaurs may have looked like will have to tweak the nose a bit to get it right. Usually the flesh-covered nasal passages of dinosaurs are shown toward the back of the openings in the nose bone. But Lawrence Witmer, a paleontologist at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, says that’s wrong, and the nostrils were really much closer to the front, just above the mouth, and were larger than thought.

Photo:Science Tries Fleshy Nosed Diplodocus

The finding, which Witmer reported in the August 3 issue of Science, is significant not just because it changes our idea of what dinosaurs looked like. It also has implications for how dinosaurs breathed, smelled, and regulated their body temperature and water loss.

“I don’t know why we got it wrong for so long,” said Witmer. “In general, the fleshy nostril the opening into the nasal cavity has escaped scientific inquiry.” People have relatively small bony nostrils, so there’s little doubt about where the flesh-covered nasal passages can be located to effectively do their job. The bony noses of dinosaurs, however, could have been more than two feet (0.6 meters) long, which leaves the placement of the fleshy nostrils open to interpretation.

Crypto-Zoo-Archaeological Mysteries Challenge Conventional Histories. The Ceratopsian Dinosaur and the Elephant in Ancient South America?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 06 2012


by Chris Parker, Copyright 2012

Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron. It ranks first among the works of God…Job 40

 

 

Ceratopsian Dinosaurs in Ancient South America?

Evidence indicating the historical presence of ceratopsian dinosaurs in South America within the last 1,000 years would be controversial for at least two reasons; one, ceratopsian dinosaurs are thought by modern science to have been extinct for 65 million years and two, science at most only recognizes the presence of one type of ceratopsian dinosaur on that entire continent.

Ceratopsian dinosaurs were, vegetarian, quadruped, frilled and horned dinosaurs whose fossils have been found primarily in North America, Asia and Europe. Incidentally, they also had tails like a cedar; Certainly much thicker than that of the hippo which some believe is described in the book of Job.

Unusual identifying features for this dinosaur include the rostral bone which gives its face a beak like appearance and the jugal bones which scientists most often depict as bones protruding from the side of the animals face. Ceratopsia is derived from the Greek for “horned face”.

Only one species has been identified from fossils in South America, Notoceratops and the scant fossils upon which that tentative identification was based have since been lost.

There is however a narrow strip of land between North and South America called the Isthmus of Panama, known in the past as the Isthmus of Darien, containing the country of Panama and the Panama Canal. According to current scientific belief, that land bridge was formed three million years ago, after the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Artifacts indicating that ceratopsian dinosaurs were living as the same time as man on the continent of South America would: call into question the entire evolutionary/materialistic time frame for evolution and the extinction of dinosaurs; prove that ceratopsians also lived on the Southern continent and calling into question the supposed timing of the formation of the Isthumus of Panama; provide an answer to the question that paleontologists have been debating as to whether or not ceratopsians had “cheeks” which covered their jugal bone formations or whether they were “cheekless” having the bones protrude as horns and/or some type of defense mechanism.

If ceratopsians indeed had cheeks which covered the jutting jugal bone they certainly would have a wide, almost smiling mien which would differ signifcantly from the way modern science now depicts them. If there are multiple South American artifacts indicating the presence of ceratopsians in South America, then why haven’t more fossils of the dinosaurs been found?

A Startling Artifact Depicting a South American, Short Frilled, Vegetable Eating Ceratopsian?


“The ceratopsians are largely subdivided into two groups: the long-frilled and the short-frilled dinosaurs. Largely identical to each other – short but powerful legs, robust bodies, tortoise beak-like jaws and a varied number of horns – they had either a shorter, more plain frill with smaller openings that didn’t extend beyond the dinosaur’s neck and shoulders (the short-frilled dinosaurs) or a longer frill with larger internal openings that extended further beyond the shoulders, occasionally possessing spikes of various length on its end.”…Walking with Dinosaurs Wikia.com

Ecuador is engaged in the process of “repatriating” 5,000 pre Columbian artifacts from Ecuador’s historic past which have been obtained either legally or illegally and which have been scattered around the world to museums and private collections. Recently elements of the Ecuadorian government sued to stop an international auction featuring a number of pre Columbian artifacts that they allege are from Ecuador. In turn, several auction have sued Ecuador claiming that the artifacts were obtained legally.

The artifact shown above right was among the objects for which Ecuador seeks a return. This pre Columbian artifact from ancient Ecuador appears to depict one of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs. It has a short frill and is depicted eating vegetation.


From the angle of the photo, the rostral bone depiction is not strong but still evident as the middle of the mouth is closer to the observer. In terms of cheeks vs no cheeks the artist came down firmly on the cheek school, depicting the cheeks totally subsuming the jugal bones on the side of the face giving the animal a wide, “grinning” mouth.

There is another visible feature in this depiction which although not dispositive of all other theories would tend to support the identification of the creature as a ceretopsian—or else cast some doubt.

That’s right! I’m talking about the creatures toes. See the photo above, right. The artist clearly depicts this animal as having five toes on the front feet (manus). But, what have paleontologists found with respect to the manus and pes (forefeet and hindfeet) of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs?

Among the short frilled ceratopsians were; protoceratops, monoceratops, leptoceratops and centrosaurus. The diagram represents one of centrosaurus’s forefeet.


“McCrea also conceded that some ceratopsians had five toes on the forefoot and four toes on the hindfoot and therefore would also be capable of leaving similar footprints.] The best known ceratopsians were known from strata more recent than that which preserved Tetrapodosaurus, however more recent discoveries have pushed the age range of ceratopsians back into ages comparable to that of Tetrapodosaurus. Nevertheless, McCrea supported the ankylosaur interpretation”…… Wikipedia on the question of who left the Abyssal/Gates tracks


“Protoceratops held its head low for grazing, using its parrotlike beak to snip off low leaves, which were swallowed whole, since the teeth were of no use for chewing. Its front feet had five toes” Quote Source

In short, we have a pre Columbian depiction of a possible short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaur some 65 million years after their extinction according to the current scientific paradigm, eating vegetation (what mythical dragons eat vegetation), with the requisite number of toes/fingers potentially answering a question regarding cheeks that has been argued for some time.

But is this a one off?

Corroborating South American Ceratopsia Depictions?

According to wikipedia, the name Ceratopsia was coined by Othniel Charles Marsh in 1890 to include dinosaurs possessing certain characteristic features, including horns, a rostral bone, teeth with two roots, fused neck vertebrae, and a forward-oriented pubis.

Two years prior to that, in 1888, Popular Science Monthly had an interesting article on whistles entitled, “Whistles, Ancient and Modern” by M. L. Gutode.

In the passage describing the artifact we want to examine he writes: “Seeing that so much can be done with such rude means, it is not strange that the whistle was a well-known instrument in antiquity. The old Peruvians were past masters in the fabrication of whistles.

They made them in great numbers, of earth, and ornamented with various designs and figures of animals. The porcelain-factory at Sèvres (Fig. 1) possesses two specimens of their workmanship, one of which resembles a nightingale; and, when filled with water, it produces a kind of warbling. There is an instrumental museum at the Paris Conservatory of Music, which is open to the public on Thursday afternoons.

It was founded by Clapisson, and in the beginning consisted only of a single collection — of whistles. This was, moreover, a most curious collection, comprising whistles of all ages and all countries, of terra-cotta, copper, ivory, hard stone, etc., some of which were.”


FIG. 1.?—?ANCIENT PERUVIAN EARTHEN WHISTLES. Nos. 1 and 2, figure of an animal, in face and in profile. No. 3. another form (From specimens in the Sèvres Museum.)

remarkable as specimens of invention and workmanship. Unfortunately, this collection was scattered to the winds at an auction-sale twenty years ago, and the conservatory has not preserved any part of it ; but there are still a great many curiosities in the instrumental museum — serpents in the most distressing shapes, horns and trumpets of crystal, flutes of porcelain, fiddles of faience, Alpine horns, a bassoon of such extraordinary adjustment that it is a day’s work to dismount it; and many other most curious contrivances for producing melodies and accompaniments.”… Popular Science Monthly at Wikipedia

Wouldn’t you be curious to see some of those “serpents in the most distressing shapes”?
Mr. Gutode suggests that the depiction on the far left is of a nightingale but keeping in mind that the ceratopsian order had not yet been named its no wonder that he didn’t consider a short frilled ceratopsian dinosaur. However, I think that’s a better identification than the nightingale.


From this view of the whistle we can see the beak caused by the placement of the rostral bone and as well we see the wide mouth caused by the interior jugal bones on each side of the head. We offer some head shots of modern short frilled ceratopsians for comparison sake.

Photo: Leptoceratops top left and bottom left, protceratops, bottom right.It’s worth noting that Ecuador, the source of our first artifact is only about 750 miles from Panama and the land Bridge between North and South America and that Peru, the source of this artifact, shares a border with Ecuador.
 

 

Bird-Headed Figure Whistle, 8th or 9th century Mexico, Veracruz

Finally, on our brief survey of pre Columbian artfacts depicting ceratopsian dinosaurs is this interesting artifact. The Metropolitan Museum of New York has a ceramic piece in its collection which it describes as bird-headed. It’s a ceramic 20.25 inches high, a part of the Michael C. Rockeller Memorial Collection donated to the museum in 1963.

The artifact is pre Columbian dated to the 8th 0r 9th century A.D. from Veracruz, Mexico.



The head features a bird-like beak and indications of the rostral bone characteristic of ceratopsians. It has a short frill, and has cheeks wide enough to accommodate the jugal hornlike facial projections also a characteristic of ceratopsian dinosaurs.

 

 

 

 

Crypto-Zoo-Archaelological Indications of Elephants in Pre Columbian South America

In viewing this artifact and while reading these pieces on elephants in South America it is important to realize that many female elephants do not have tusks and that tusklessness occurs in male elephants as well.

Science seems to be fragmented on the idea of elephants in the Americas in recent times but will allow elephants down to 10,000 years ago in South America. The problem is, there is evidence of their existence here in North America and in South America as well within the last 1,000 years or even later.

A species of ungulate believed to be ancestral to elephants and which supposedly became extinct more than 23 million year s ago is a possible answer to a question raised by a pre Columbian artifact presumably depicting some type of local fauna.

Recent Survival Of The Elephant In The Americas William Corliss, Science Frontiers OnLine
No. 68: Mar-Apr 1990


Photo:Mayan “elephant motif”.

“Elephants were supposed to have disappeared from the America about 10,000 years ago as the Ice Ages waned. This date is another of those “consensus” scientific facts that no one dares challenge if he or she wishes to get published or win research grants. Although this subject remains “closed off” in normal scientific intercourse, there remain tantalizing hints that elephants roamed the Americas until very recently – perhaps even a few hundred years ago!

The following snippets are culled from two articles written by G. Carter, Texas A&M, now emeritus, but always heretical:

1. Numerous folk memories of the elephamt were retained by American Indians.
2. A mastadon was killed, cooked, and eaten by humans in Ecuador circa 1500 BC.
3. Indians told Thomas Jefferson that elephants could still be seen in the region of the Great Lakes.
4. In Florida, a cache of extinct animals, including elephants, was carbon-dated at 2000 BP.
5. Elephant heads are prominent in art and sculpture from Mexico, Central American, and northern South America.

(Carter, George F.; “A Note on the Elephant in America,” and “The Mammoth in American Epigraphy,” Epigraphic Society, Occasional Publications, 18:90 and 18:213, 1989.) ‘

Sitchin’s Elephant


An Elephant Among the Wheels“Jalapa, a gem of a town, is about two hours’ drive from Veracruz (where the Spanish Conquistador Hernan Cortes landed in 1519).

Its museum is undoubtedly second only to the famed one in Mexico City; but unlike Mexico City’s which displays artifacts from all over the country, the Jalapa one exhibits only locally discovered artifacts — predominantly Olmec ones.

Dramatically and effectively displayed in an innovative setting, the Museum boasts several colossal stone heads as well as other stone sculptures. It also displays smaller objects found at Olmec sites; among them, in special display showcases, are what are considered to be Olmec “toys.” They include animals mounted on wheels — a visual and evidentiary negation of the common claim that the people of Mesoamerica (and America in general) were unfamiliar with the wheel.

And included in the same display case were elephants — “toys” made of clay.

Gone – Where and Why? I, and some of my fans who accompanied me, saw them on previous visits to the Museum.
BUT when I (and again some of my fans with me) was there recently — in December 1999 — the elephants were nowhere in sight!

I could find no one in authority to obtain an explanation from. But that the elephants were once there was a fact indeed, here is a photograph of one, shot on a previous visit:

Now, here is the significance of this small artifact: There are no, and never have been, elephants in the Americas. There are and have been elephants in Africa. And a depiction of an elephant could have been made only by someone who has seen an elephant, i.e. someone who has been to Africa!”

 
Aspire Auction Pre Columbian Coati Muni—Or Elephant?


Recently an auction house specializing in ancient artifacts had this pre Columbian artifact for sale at one of its auctions.
Just for information purposes it eventually sold for $161 dollars which is the kind of price you’re going to realize if your ancient artifact looks like a dinosaur or even, God forbid an elephant which is out of time and place.

 


I would tend to believe that an actual depiction of a pre Columbian coati mundi would have fetched more.

The artifact is small; approximately 4 x 5 x 3.5 inches and is described as a “ Pre-Columbian Coati Mundi Head Fragment “., The piece is terracotta and hollow and is further described by the auction house as having “slit eyes” and an “extended nose”..

 



The South American Coati Mundi is a relative of the raccoon and is common in South America. It is also known as the Quati. Their coloration is variable. Unfortunately, coatis don’t have the nose or the ears for this artifact. One is pictured here along with a front view of the artifact.

 

 

 

Pyrotherium, another possibility over coati mundi?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pyrotherium (‘fire beast’) is an extinct genus of South American ungulate, of the order Pyrotheria, that lived in what is now Argentina, during the Early Oligocene.(between 43 annd 23 million years ago) It was named “Fire Beast” because the first specimens were excavated from an ancient volcanic ashfall.

The vaguely elephant-like Pyrotherium was 3 m (10 ft) long and 1.50 m (5 ft) tall at the shoulders, with a weight up to 3500 kg (3.85 tons). Its heavy body was carried by robust legs. Pyrotherium also had a short trunk on its snout, and two pairs of flat, forward-facing tusks in the upper jaw, with a single pair in the lower jaw.


Photo: Left, Restoration of the head by Robert Bruce HorsfallPossible South American descendants of the xenungulates, the complete study of the tarsus of Pyrotherium fails to support this relationship. In one study, derived characters were not seen in any mammal examined except the embrithopod Arsinoitherium from the Tertiary of Africa.[3] Whether this is due to common ancestry, or to the unusual mode of locomotion used by these animals (graviportal and plantigrade) remains to be seen.”

Were there elephants and/or elephants related to elephants in South America within the last 1,000 years? The artifacts say yes but science says no. Will science carry by labeling trunked animal depictions as coati mundi with extended ears and noses or as macaws as some label the Mayan “elephant”.

Perhaps they can maintain their illusions and their evolutionary allusions if they have enough Darwinsitic faith.

See Also:Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part I

Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part II

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2- Exit the Dragon; Enter the Dinosaur. Why Dinosaurs are Not Extinct-In Ancient Art Museums Around the World

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 09 2012


Story Below–Photo: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum-

“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

by Chris Parker Copyright July 2012 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Part II Prologue

Return to PART I
Jump Ahead to Part 3

“One thing on which both creationists and evolutionists agree is that dinosaurs make marvelous teaching tools. Rare is the adult—and even more rare is the child—who does not have a keen interest in dinosaurs.

These magnificent beasts with the polysyllabic names capture our attention as we fixate on their massive size, their lizard-like skin, or the terror they were apparently able to create as they roamed the Earth. From kindergarten through graduate school, dinosaurs often are used as a tool to indoctrinate students regarding the “fact” of organic evolution.

In most public school, college, and university settings, when dinosaurs are discussed, it is in the context of their evolutionary origin, development, and extinction. Students are told that these wondrous animals evolved from some ancient reptile into what we now know as birds. In such a setting, it is commonplace to use the dinosaurs to instruct simultaneously on the ancient nature of the Earth and/or Universe.” ..www.apologeticspress.org/

Christians and other man/dinosaur believers often haven’t organized their pro dinosaur and man beliefs, explanations and/or theories in such a way as to affirmatively deal with the current scientific paradigm’s onslaught. There is an impressive amount of intellectual firepower directed against anyone who would believe in the historical coexistence of man and dragon/dinosaur. So much so that going up against it is a true David vs Goliath struggle.

There is however, ample evidence in the art and history of ancient civilizations that support the truth which most people are ignorant of. It’s helpful to remember that David won his struggle and Goliath lost his head.

Enter the Dinosaur

Last month, (June 2012) a study whose results were published in the journal Nature suggests that despite long held scientific belief to the contrary, dinosaurs were warm blooded. “Researchers in Spain and Norway reported that they had found tree-like growth rings on the bones of mammals, a feature that until now was thought to be limited to cold-blooded creatures”.

They also found that dinosaurs must have had a high metabolic rate in order to grow to their sometimes great size. Dinosaurs are thought to be reptiles and; reptiles by definition are cold-blooded.

In the July 2010 issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology John Scannella and Jack Horner of the Museum of the Rockies published a study that did away with Triceratops, Draconex, Stygimoloch, and nanotyrannus, describing them as simply juvenile versions of Torosaurus, Pachycephalosaurs and tyrannosaurus whose skulls have simply changed as they aged.

As we mentioned in Part 1 of this article, a June 2009 article in LiveScience indicated that scientists had overestimated the weight and size of dinosaurs by as much as 1/2 to 1/3. As an example an Apatosaurus previously thought to weigh 42 tons is now thought to have weighed “only” 20 tons.

A Discover Magazine article in 2000 confirms that much of what we think dinosaurs looked like is pure speculation on the part of illustrators and paleontologists. No one is really sure what they looked like.

Guess what? If you don’t know anything about dinosaurs you’re practically an expert. This lack of real knowledge about dinosaurs is important as we evaluate the evidence for or against dinosaur depictions in the art of ancient peoples.

Exit the Dragon

Photo: Darwin Hunts Dinosaur from the Time of Christ-to the Death? Palestrina Mosaic Dinosaur

As a self described cryptozooarchaeologist, I have to admit that I am not out standing in my field. In fact, the evidence I search for is not out in the fields. Rather it is in old books, museum collections, libraries and in internet museum databases. I’ll continue to provide some evidence here in Part 2 of this article that; dinosaurs and man lived contemporaneously, that this evidence exists in the art and history of most ancient cultures, and that modern science has hidden or ignored this evidence in a number of both overt and covert ways.

Prior to 1841 when Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosauria” to describe a class of gigantic, reptile-like animals whose fossils were then being discovered and classified every culture had a name for these animals. The Bible and other historical texts and authors called them dragons (or their own local words). When Darwin published the “Origin of the Species” in 1859 he of course had no idea that the actual or virtual extinction of these animals would be used as one of the major standard bearers of the organic evolution theory.

However, the art and artifacts of ancient people proves that as late as the publication of his book other cultures were still recording evidence of the existence of these animals in their times. The accompanying graphic shows Darwin hunting a dinosaur that must have existed at the time of Christ; a dinosaur lifted from the 1st century Roman Mosaic known as the Palestrina Mosaic.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part II

PART 1 of THIS ARTICLE

If one looks at the art and artifacts particularly from China and from South America, their artifacts and arts are literally permeated with depictions of “dragons” and serpents. This is true of other ancient cultures but it is especially noteworthy in these two geo cultural locations. In Part 1 we dealt mostly with dragons/dinosaurs from Asia. I want to transition from Asia to the Americas in Part II of this article but it is appropriate to begin in Asia. Here are three (out of many) dragon depictions from Asia that in fact possibly depict dinosaurs.

Ancient Chinese Bipedal Dragon from the Shanghai Museum

In October of 2010 the Museo del Oro del Banco de la Republica in Bogata, Columbia held a temporary exhibition of Chinese art from the Shanghai Museum entitled: Emperial Dragons from the Collection of the Shanghai Museum”. The exhibition contained 300 works of art related to dragon imagery representing a period it was said of over 5,000 years.

The painting at the top of this article and reproduced here was a part of that collection. The description of the work is: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.”

It is a beautiful piece that features a perhaps “typical” Chinese dragon, a landscape and some men described as “holy”. There are however, several very interesting things about this particular dragon. For one thing, it appears to be bipedal. Now how or why would the Chinese depict a mythical dragon as bipedal? There were in fact many bipedal dinosaurs but science tells us that they all became extinct more than 65 million years ago.

At the very least it’s a big coincidence that artists living three to four thousand years ago would conceive of a four legged, bipedal dragon without ever having seen a four legged, bipedal dinosaur.

Another curious thing about this “dragon” is that the artist for some reason has made it quite clear that this dragon has three clawed “hands” as well as three clawed feet. I have a high resolution version of this piece of art and the claws are distinctive. The final thing of note is that this dragon has a head crest.

I made the point in Part 1 that it is curious that virtually every ancient culture depicted dragons; reptilian, dangerous, large creatures which arguably also fits the description of dinosaurs that they supposedly never saw. I wondered if a crested, bipedal, dinosaur fossil had ever been discovered in China, so I Googled it. I went to images. Google Dinosaur Images

Literally, the first dinosaur that appeared on Google with that description was the Guanlong dinosaur.

This is how Wikipedia described that supposedly millions of years gone dinosaur:


“About 3.0 metres (9.8 ft) long,[1] its fossils were found in the Shishugou Formation dating to about 160 million years ago, in the Oxfordian stage of the Late Jurassic period, 92 million years before its well-known relative Tyrannosaurus.

This bipedal saurischian theropod shared many traits with its descendants, and also had some unusual ones, like a large crest on its head. Unlike later tyrannosaurs, Guanlong had three long fingers on its hands. Guanlong was discovered in the Dzungaria area of China by scientists from George Washington University, and named by Xu Xing in 2006. Guanlong comes from the Chinese words for “crown” and “dragon”, referring to the crest.” Wikipedia

In the graphic above are comparisons of Guanlong with our Han Dynasty “dragon depictions”. Turns out that in addition to being bipedal like our dragon, it had a headcrest and as it turns out, three fingers and three toes just like our dragon. Does this prove that the Han Dynasty depiction is of the Guanlong dinosaur? Not necessarily, but for those who believe that man and dinosaurs lived together this is exactly what one would expect.

It would be difficult for naysayers to explain why a dragon was depicted with morphological features exactly like that of an actual dinosaur who lived it that same geographical area-but science isn’t explaining, it is ignoring.

 

Neolithic Culture Cultural Jade

The object description: “These Photo Galleries were developed from our private collection acquired and privately kept in Hong Kong since 1979. They were uncovered from Neolithic ruins and found their way to the Hong Kong open market since the mainland economy began to open its doors to traders.


These Neolithic Cultural Jades differ from the traditionally collected “burial jades” from the traditional archeological burial sites of Hongshan and Liangchu, discovered in the 1920s and 1930s. Source


Here it is shown in comparison to Yangchuanosaurus. “Yangchuanosaurus is an extinct genus of metriacanthosaurid theropod dinosaur that lived in China during the late Oxfordian (and possibly Kimmeridgian) stage of the Late Jurassic, and was similar in size and appearance to its North American contemporary, Allosaurus.

It hails from the Upper Shaximiao Formation and was the largest predator in a landscape which included the sauropods Mamenchisaurus and Omeisaurus as well as the Stegosaurs Chialingosaurus, Tuojiangosaurus and Chungkingosaurus”…Wikipedia

 

A Pair of Western Han Dynasty Beaulieu Screens Copper Bracket

Descripton of the Artifact:

“Western Han Dynasty. Object is 33.5 cm high and 27.3cm long. The screens on both sides of the barrier under the bracket, the original gilt. Squat in the care seat Broom, proudly curved body Onchocerca, four feet on the synthesis by the two snakes structure on a bearing.

Volumes of the two snakes wrapped around a frog. Frog mouth violent head, trying to break free like. Longkou large sheet of mouth, a rim of the forelegs gripped Long, head stretched forward, as if to escape the invasion of the evil snake get the protection of the Dragon, serene state.


Dragon, snake, frog combination of the three together, is a highly plastic arts, the beauty of antiques. The snake, the frog was a totem of the ancient Yue people, the dragon is one of the four gods worshiped by the Central Plains, the snake wrapped around the frog, dragon stood on the snake to protect the frog tells the story of a legendary totem myths. Now in the possession: Guangzhou Xi Hannan Yue Museum.”


Keeping in mind the Prologue in which we mentioned that the size of many dinosaurs had been exaggerated shouldn’t a fair minded observer consider that this dragon is in fact a depiction of a living Chinese dinosaur during the Han Dynasty period? (206 B.C.–220 A.D.)

Here the Han Dynasty object is compared with Plateosaurus, Dinosaurs related to Plateosaurus have been found in South Africa, North America, and China. Note that Plateosaurus is not depicted with ears. Many ancient culture depictions of these creatures do show them with external ears. Modern science has drawn them as reptiles who often do not have external earflaps. However, as we noted in the Prologue, dinosaurs were probably warm-blooded and possibly not reptiles at all.

 

Dinosaur Depictions at the World’s Oldest Cities

If the Christian/creationist view concerning dinosaurs is correct, then dinosaurs were created by God less than 10,000 years ago and were contemporaneous with man from the beginning. If the evolutionary/current science paradigm is correct and dinosaurs became extinct 65,000,000 years ago, then no evidence of interaction between them should exist and the ubiquitous dragon of many ancient cultures is a mythological, unrelated phenomena.

Golbeki. “Now considered by some to be the oldest civilization in the world is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. “Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known man-made religious structure. The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site.

The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of manpower and labor……


Many of the pillars are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithic cave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.

…..Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic”. ….Wikipedia

Wikipedia notes that there were reliefs of “snakes and other reptiles” at Göbekli Tepe. Here are some of the raised reliefs that might indicate that there were “dinosaurs” at one of the oldest archaeological sites ever found.

Tiahuanico. But some say that mysterious Tiahuanico a seaport 2.5 miles above sea level high in the Andes mountains is the world’s oldest city.

“The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable. There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships.”


According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months. Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them.

Again, creationists might expect to discover some evidence that man had some interaction with dragons now called dinosaurs in ancient time and location. Of course, science would expect no such thing.

This ancient animal depiction is from Tihuanaco and is now housed at the National Archaeological Museum of Bolivia. Here is the official description:


A.D. 200-A.D. 1000
Gold Tiwanaku zoomorphic figurines

These dinosaurs appear to be quadruped carnivore’s although today we think of most carnivorous dinosaurs as having been bi-pedal. Some scientists have speculated that certain prosauropods were either carnivores or omnivores. In any case, here apparently is the view of an eyewitness.

 

The Pivot to South America

In 1973 the late Dr. Hendon Harris Jr. Wrote a book entitled ‘The Asiatic Fathers of America” that theorized based on certain ancient Chinese maps that seafaring Chinese reached the Americas repeatedly beginning around 2,200 B.C., and that those ancient Chinese were the ancestors of the “American Indians”.

“His proof centered on a world map he found in an old map book a year earlier in an antique shop in Korea.



Entitled “Everything under Heaven,” the ancient Chinese map not only showed known major land masses such as Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe, but located China’s fabled Fu Sang—literally “land to the east”—in the region we now know as North and South America”. Epoch Times…

This Colima Culture dragon reminds some of the Naga and other ancient Chinese dragon depictions (Below, right).


Other author’s and Academics have pointed to other evidence of the Ancient Chinese in the Americas including speculation that the ancient, Pre Hispanic and advanced Olmec culture was founded by the Chinese.

One thing is certain, both cultures in the form of their arts certainly showed a strong cultural interest in dragons/slash dinosaurs.


Acambaro Figurines. In 1944 Waldemar Julsrud, a hardware salesman spotted some curious ceramics sticking out of the ground near Acambaro, Mexico on El Toro Mountain.

After examining them, he concluded that they were from an unknown culture. Back in 1923 Julsrud had been the co-discoverer along with Padre Fray Jose Marie Martinez of what came to be known as the Chupicauro culture at an archaeological site only eight miles from El Toro. His discovery of the Chupicauro culture and artifacts which scientists came to believe flourished from 500 B.C. to 500A.D. still stands.

Julsrud paid a local farmer a peso a piece for any whole artifacts that were found at this new location near Acambaro and eventually amassed a collection of over 20,000 unique artifacts which included dinosaurs, Asians, Africans, bearded Caucasians, Polynesians, Egyptian and Sumerian objects and many others. The non-dinosaurian objects in the collection some called the “Museum that seared scientists” were virtually as offensive to the current scientific paradigm as were the dinosaurs. Science has reacted to the collection with a combination of intense indifference or a determination to lable them as fakes- from afar.

Ica Stones In 1966, Peruvian physician Javier Cabrera Darquea was prompted to begin collecting strange stones found near Ica, Peru which his father had also collected back in the 1930’s. These stones of various sizes showed man and dinosaurs interacting but also, telescopes, heart surgery, constellations and many other seemingly out of place and time depictions. Cabrera amassed a collection of over 11,000 of these stones. Like the Acambaro figurines, they also came to be labeled fakes.

Photo:Etching from one of the Ica Stones.

Here we potentially have two of the greatest archeaological discoveries of all time being quickly labeled fakes and then ignored by science in the years since. I personally don’t accept the pronouncement. One thing about faking artifacts; it would only be profitable if they are sold to someone.

Here are three reasons why they are unlikely to be fakes; 1)There are 20,000 unsold Acambaro figurines and over 11,000 Ica Stones. Not a very shrewd way to fake a living is it? 2)There are morphological characteristics on certain of the dinosaurs which were not discovered until many years after the stones were discovered. For instance, at the time of the discovery, Sauropods were not depicted with dermal spines. Stephen Czerkas discovery of dermal spines on sauropods in 1992 gave them a “new look” which had already been depicted on ancient artifacts. 3)The surest way not to sell a faked pre Columbian ancient artifact is to place a dinosaur or an Egyptian on it..

Dr. Requena’s Dinosaurs


Prior to the 1944 and 1966 discoveries of the Acambaro and Ica artifacts, respectively, an actual scientist, an anthropologist named Dr. Rafael Requena who was then affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela, discovered his own dinosaur and man artifacts.

I have a signed copy of his book (not to me) detailing the discovery of out of place artifacts at Lago Valencia in Venenzuela and of a new undiscovered ancient civilization there entitled; “Vestigios of Atlantida” (Remnants of Atlantis), published in 1932. I see that used copies of this book are still available for approximately $350.00.

According to the book and news reports about the discoveries, Requena claimed that Venezuela was the cradle of man’s civilization and that the ancient culture interacted with “prehistoric animals”. Among the prehistoric animals named as having been associated with this ancient culture was the diplodocus.

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.


Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…” New York Times June 5, 1932.

Dr. Requena’s discoveries were not declared fakes and his career was not ruined. Both the Ica Stones and the Acambaro figures suffered in the eyes of science because they had not been discovered by scientists-or so the said. The links that Requena made with Atlantis may seem crackpot to some today but were not viewed quite that way back in 1932.


Many of the artifacts of the ancient civilization he discovered can still be found on the internet. However, the dinosaurs have simply disappeared.

We do have his book and an opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not this ancient civilization did in fact interact with dinosaurs.

I do note that even Requena approached the dinosaur angle of his discoveries with some caution. One would think that a discovery of dinosaur art among the remnants of this ancient civilization would have been the absolute focus of the discovery and that there would have been copious photographs of the “prehistoric animals” from every available angle.


Photo:Requena’s suaropod dinosaur from his 1932 book compared to a modern brachiosaurus model.

This was not the case; we do not have close-ups or multiple angles even though it appears that Requena was absolutely convinced that the depictions of dinosaurs were authentic. In fact, the dinosaurs are what convinced Requena that the ancient Venezuelans had to be a very ancient, advanced culture.

The photo above left shows that Requena’s sauropod compares favorably to a modern dinosaur model depicting a brachiosaurus.

Unfortunately, this is the only photographic angle shown in Requena’s book and in magazine articles announcing his discoveries. Clearly the ancient depiction is stylized to some extent. The artifact labeled number 40 in Requena’s book clearly it seems to me depicts a type of armored dinosaur like ankylosaur.


Ankylosauria are a group of herbivorous dinosaurs of the order Ornithischia. It includes the great majority of dinosaurs with armor in the form of bony osteoderms. Ankylosaurs were bulky quadrupeds, with short, powerful limbs. They are first known to have appeared in the early Jurassic Period of China, and persisted until the end of the Cretaceous Period. They have been found on every continent except Africa. …Wikipedia

These creatures supposedly became extinct at least 65 million years ago. The non-club tailed versions are known as nodosaurs although none of those have been reported to be found in South America.


On page 75 of the book Vestigios de la Atlantida are photographs of two “vases” which depict several animal figures. One of those figures is shown on the right. What quadruped has a neck frill like the one shown to the right? In our view, only a ceratopsian dinosaur would have this profile. Unfortunately, this is the only view and resolution that we have.

The case for a ceratopsian dinosaur is bolstered we believe by the fact that Requena says that prehistoric creatures were part of the experience of the Lago Valencia civilization.

There are certainly many types of ceratopsian dinosaurs and many different frill shapes. Shown here (above right) are several modern ceratopsian depictions from as close to the same angle as possible. Ceratopsian dinosaurs have not been found in South America (except for notoceratops) and they also are thought by science to have become extinct over 65 million years ago.


I’m calling the creature shown to the left the baby ceratops. It has a unique skull shape which doesn’t appear to comport with any known animal and along with its visible appendages make a ceratopsian dinosaur a possibility.

Ceratops does mean “horned face” after all. I’m not going to make a federal case out of this ID given the one angle, low relatively low resolution photo but provide a comparison photo for the reader’s amusement.

Metropolitan Museum of Art Horned Dinosaur with Front and Back Detail


Double-Chambered Whistling Bottle, 4th-7th century Ecuador; Bahia, Ceramic

This time we have a detailed, color photo showing the front and back of these creatures in detail. The curator has fallen back on the canard that these are simply lizards or are mythological creatures.

These creatures are tied by the use of ropes to sticks giving them the man dinosaur/interaction prize amont the dinosaurs we have reviewed for this article. Does one tie a mythological creature to a stick? From the Met’s decription:

“Double-chambered bottles were a common vessel form among the Bahia people of coastal Ecuador. The chambers, which were round and squat or tall and slender, as here, were joined at the bottom by a tube and at the top by a strap handle.


A single, narrow spout tops one of the chambers, while the other vessel serves as a base for modeled figurative sculptures.

On this bottle, two fantastic iguana-like creatures sit side by side at the top, their thick, long tails hanging down the side of the container. The iguanas wear necklaces and head crests; long streamers emerge from their open, fanged mouths; their bodies have dorsal crests and winglike elements projecting on the sides. The dull, bumpy surface of the animals, covered with light green pigment, contrasts with the smooth, burnished finish of the red-slipped chambers.

The hollow iguanas function as whistles, their several holes producing a sound when the liquid in the bottle is poured out. Iguanas or dragonlike creatures and serpents are frequent motifs in Bahia art and seem to have played an important role in local mythology.” …..Met Museum


I believe that these animals are related to ceratopsian dinosaurs as well. They have small neck frills and “nose bumps” similar to that of Leptoceratops or Cerasinops or other ceratopsian dinosaurs.

Note that what appears to be a single, horn projecting from their heads is revealed from the backside to be part of their headcrests or neck frills. Also note the armor over the lower body segment.

Sometimes ceratopsian dinosaurs are portrayed with this body split as has been done with the Lepto and the Cerasinops depictions above.


Leptoceratops is from North America.

A creature like Bradysaurus shown to the right with another version of Leptoceratops is another possibility. Bradysaurus is from South Africa. However, it was a pareiasaur which have been discovered on the continent. These are offered as examples of broad dinosaur types that compare favorably to the creatures depicted by the Ecuadorians.

 

Ancient South American Dinosaur Sacrifices?

Lambayeque Culture Toxodon Sacrafice? According to the Gardiner Museum:

“this is an exquisite example of a double-chambered figural bridge-spout whistling bottle of the Lambayeque Culture. It’s a moulded whistling vessel, the front is a square section and is surmounted by an animal , possibly being marked by two attendants, the back body is moulded in the form of a shell with –as you can see a tall tapering spout and a wide strap handle.

The whole item is painted in black, cream and reddish-brown, with areas of scroll, circular and geometric patterns. It’s from the Middle Horizon period, AD 100-300, of the Lambayeque culture of Peru.”

I think that it is entirely possible that this scene instead depicts “priests” readying a toxodon for sacrifice. Toxodons were among the most prolific types of fossils found in South America and supposedly lived down to 16,500 years ago. Coincidentally, Charles Darwin was among the first to collect fossils of this large animal.

From Wikipedia: “Toxodon is an extinct mammal of the late Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs about 2.6 million to 16,500 years ago. It was indigenous to South America, and was probably the most common large-hoofed mammal in South America at the time of its existence.

Toxodon was about 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) in body length, with an estimated weight up to 1500 kg and about 1.5 metres (4.9 ft) high at the shoulder and resembled a heavy rhinoceros, with a short and vaguely hippopotamus-like head.”

I think that this animal is the right size and has the beaked mouth and other features that make toxodon a possible identification for the creature being depicted here. It seems unlikely that this kind of detail and this kind of ritual would be depicted for only a mythological creature. Whatever this cretaure is it is likely a real creature it seems to me.

Chimu Culture Dinosaur Sacrifice? On the left is a Chimu Culture ceramic artifact from between 1100 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The source is the emuseum.mankato.

From: emuseum.mankato “The Chimu civilization lasted from 1100 AD to the late 1400′s AD. The Chimu state was characterized by conquest and expansion periods of the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. At one time, the Chimu empire encompassed 620 square miles. Minchancamon was the greediest and coincidentally the last leader of the Chimu state.

His quest for dominance, built on by his predecessors, resulted in the conquest of the Sican state to the north. In their quest for expansion, the Chimu encountered the Inca to the south.

The Chimu conflict with the Inca began in 1462, and the Inca eventually prevailed. The Inca conquered the Chimu state in 1475 – 1476.

Paleontologists say that man and dinosaurs missed each other by more than 65 million years. For this reason, they cannot accept that any art showing man interacting with a dinosaur is genuine.

If the piece is believed to be genuine, then it follows that whatever is being represented is not a dinosaur-no matter how apparent the resemblance.

Conversely, creationists, or more specifically, we here at s8int.com do believe that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the recent past and that therefore, ancient art will be found which proves that this interaction took place.

For this reason, we are liable to see a “dinosaur” when in fact the animal is actually something less mysterious. We all have to deal with our biases.

I believe that it is reasonable to assert that this Chimu piece shows a man with a rope or a cloth tied around the neck of a juvenile dinosaur, which is either a pet or which is being prepared for sacrifice. We’ve identified the type of dinosaur as possibly a Maiasaura or an Iquanodon, two related dinosaurs. As usual, everyone is encouraged to make up his/her own mind.

 

Conclusion

The truth is; dinosaurs were created at the same time as all other living creatures. They were called dragons in scripture and were so known in most ancient cultures prior to the time that the huge creatures were given the name dinosauria around 1841 and the name dragon was driven by science into the mythological realm.

The ancient art in museums tell a different story however and that information is no longer available only to academics who may be beholden to the current paradigm or who certainly don’t want to go up against it.

At the current time, perhaps the dragon is still crouching and the dinosaur in modern times, still hidden, however, the truth will come out. As the Bible says;

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”….Luke 8

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 3

See Also:

Denial Is not Just a River in Egypt; Suppressed Human and Dinosaur Interactions in Nilotic Art

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries

When Really Giant Humans Left Their Imprints on the World

Human and Dinosaur Inner Actions-When Witnesses Got Eaten

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”

The Ancient Earth should have Frozen to Death Billions of Years Ago?

Church of Darwin, s8int.com, Science, Uncategorized | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 08 2011

“This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.” Genesis 2:4 (NIV)

“Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.” Proverbs 17:28

Source:Io9.com
by Alasdair Wilkins

The geological evidence suggests that there have been liquid oceans on Earth dating back at least 3.5 billion years, a fact that was crucial to the emergence of the very first lifeforms. The only problem is that that’s utterly impossible.

Here’s the basic problem.

In the first billion years or so of the Earth’s existence, the Sun would have been considerably dimmer than it is today, perhaps only about 70% of its current brightness. In those days, the Sun wouldn’t have given off enough heat to keep liquid water on Earth’s surface without it freezing back up.

But that’s contradicted by ancient rocks that show clear signs of liquid water dating back that far, not to mention the fact that the earliest ancestors of life apparently began to emerge way back then, and they almost certainly would have needed liquid oceans to do that.

There are a few possible explanations for this little mystery. The Earth might have had a lower albedo back then, meaning that it reflected less of its heat back towards the Sun. The most obvious way to lower the planet’s albedo would be to substantially reduce its cloud cover.

Another possibility is that Earth might have suffered from a runaway greenhouse gas effect, a little bit like what we find on Venus today. Either way, the mystery was big enough to warrant this rather impressive title: “The Faint Young Sun Paradox.”

About a year ago, researchers announced a possible solution to the paradox. They argued that the rocks dating back to that time period showed no evidence of methane or carbon dioxide, two of the most common greenhouse gases. That made the lower albedo theory the clear favorite, and the researchers argued that in the absence of lots of biological particles that would nucleate water droplets, fewer clouds would have formed.

Here’s the problem though – all the researchers did was provide evidence against the greenhouse effect theory, not offer evidence for the lower albedo theory. Researchers Colin Goldlatt and Kevin Zahnle at NASA’s Ames Research Center have now approached the question from the other direction, assessing the logistics of the lower albedo theory. And it really doesn’t look good.

They discovered that no matter how you arrange the clouds, there’s no way that it could have lowered the albedo enough to keep the oceans liquid. According to repeated simulations, the most that Goldlatt and Zahnle could get was about half the necessary heating to keep the water unfrozen.

Specifically, since higher clouds trap heat while lower clouds reflect it, they tried a simulation where there were no lower clouds at all, and even so they say that “even with the strongest plausible assumptions, reducing cloud and surface albedos falls short by a factor of two of resolving the paradox.”

The two best theories to explain why the ancient Earth didn’t freeze have now seemingly been disproved. There’s no easy way out of this paradox, and we may need an entirely new theory to account for it, because this is one of those times where the theoretical and practical evidence seem hellbent on disagreement.

arXiv via Technology Review.

Dinosaur and Human Interaction in Our Times (the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago-Sun Times etc. Historical Newspapers)

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 03 2011

Photo: Dr. Requena reports finding artifacts of an unknown, advanced civilization in Venezuela who had sculpted extinct creatures incuding several versions of the diplodocus dinosaur. Modern Mechanix, 1934

by Chris Parker, Copyright 2011
Quoted Headlines and news content in this article are in a blue font

“Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: He calleth them all by names by the greatness of His might, for that He is strong in power; not one faileth” (Isaiah 40:26).

Charles Darwin’s book; “The Origin of the Species; was written back in 1859. The word “dinosaur” had been coined a few years earlier, in 1841 by Sir Richard Owen.

I began a review of the dinosaur and man controversy in the press after that time thinking that perhaps the world of science and news reporting would have still been rather naive and innocent for a time and still willing to report things as they were discovered-without the filter and hold that Darwinism currently holds over both.

Actually, the Darwin free “honeymoon period” proved to be remarkably short, however, scientists did make reports during this period that would ruin the reputation of anyone making such “scientific” claims today.

Some say that you can’t prove a negative; what is true is that when you make a negative proposition, i.e. “blue fairies don’t exist”, the breadth of that statement is universal, while the positive (opposing) side of that argument, i.e. “blue fairies do exist” only has to be shown to be true in one place in the universe to be correct and to simultaneously prove the “negative proposition” incorrect.

Photo: Mesopotamian Cylinder Seal showing sauropods from 300 B.C. The Lovre.

Another example of this type is the proposition that man and dinosaur never interacted. In fact, according to science, they missed each other by 65 million years. This negative proposition must be universal to be true; that is, man and dinosaur never interacted at any time or in any place in this universe.

For the opposing proposition to be true; that man and dinosaur did coexist- it need only be proved that they in fact, did interact at least in one instance at one time and at one place anywhere in the universe.

But we have proof of much more than a single instance in the newspapers and magazines that existed prior to the complete establishment of the Darwin filter.

Advanced Civilization in Venezuela Lived with Dinosaurs
Special Correspondence to the New York Times, Caracas, June 5, 1932 PUBLISHED JUNE, 12 1932
DATES EARLY MAN BACK 8,000 YEARS
Dr. Requena Holds Discoveries Indicate Venezuela Was Civilization’s Cradle
Found Fossilized Skulls—Lake Valencia Relics Show That Makers Were Familiar With Prehistoric Animals

In the early 1930’s Dr. Rafael Requena was an anthropologist affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela.

From the above named article:

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.

Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…”

Photo:Closeup and comparison of one of Requena’s sauropods. From photo at top of page.


The article goes on to mention that the skulls of the people found at the location had been fossilized. Dr. Requena noted that there appeared to be a high degree of civilization that preceded all other South American civilizations. Dr. Requena, assuming that the current scientific thinking re the age of the dinosaurs was correct, and finding numerous examples of sculptured dinosaurs, reasoned that the civilization and the dinosaurs must have been from 250 million years prior.

In his book he endeavored to link the ancient civilization to Atlantis.

The April, 1934 issue of Modern Mechanix, ran an article about Dr. Requena and his archaelogical discoveries in an article entitled; “Scientists Find Traces of Two Lost Continents”. The pictures that accompany this portion of our article on dinosaurs and man in historical press accounts comes from the Modern Mechanix article.

From that article:


“DOWN through the ages, man has hung to the words of Plato. For Plato told of a great continent, Atlantis by name, which slipped under the waters of the sea, carrying with it an entire civilization.
Recent discoveries point to the fact that approximately 250,000,000 years ago, South America, Africa, India, Australia and a great portion of the Antarctic region were a single continent.

Similar discoveries reveal the existence, until about the same period, of a North Atlantis, a sort of super-continent, which ran from the present western shores of North America to the British Isles, and possibly connected, by a few small peninsulas, with Europe.

Mysterious prehistoric rock writing, recently found in Venezuela by Dr. Rafael Requena, is believed to be the work of people who lived on the lost South Atlantis. In addition to the writings, Dr. Requena has found many relics of a by-gone culture.

They include small statues of humans, with males and females easily distinguished and replicas of animals, many of which resemble the strange dinosaurs which have been dug up in other portions of the world.”

Well, that’s it, right?

The one instance in the world of scientifically verified interaction between man and dinosaur that disproves the proposition that man and dinosaur never lived together? After all, there wasn’t just a single piece that perhaps could have been misinterpreted; there were several sculptures of “diplodocuses” in various poses and sculptures of other dinosaurs and extinct creatures; not discovered by some nameless amateur but by a scientist?

Unfortunately, not as far as “science” is concerned.


On the same continent, over 17,000 and counting “Ica Stones” discovered in 1966 near Ica, Peru; many displaying drawings of dinosaurs and technology such as telescopes etc. and 32,000 Acambaro figurines, many in the shapes of dinosaurs and other extinct or fantastic creatures discovered in 1944 in Acambaro, Mexico have also been ignored by the scientific community.

Dinosaurs and Man in the Gobi Desert

“Roy Chapman Andrews (January 26, 1884 – March 11, 1960) was an American explorer, adventurer and naturalist who became the director of the American Museum of Natural History. He is primarily known for leading a series of expeditions through the fragmented China of the early 20th century into the Gobi Desert and Mongolia. The expeditions made important discoveries and brought the first-known fossil dinosaur eggs to the museum.” Wikipedia


This next series of articles deals with the discoveries of Roy Chapman Andrews in the Gobi desert. Andrews was a well known adventurer scientist of his day whose adventures often made the front pages of the New York Times and newspapers and magazines across the country and the world. It is important to realize that Andrews was not outside of the scientific mainstream but was a part of it. He was always associated with the American Museum of Natural History.

Explorer Finds Remarkable Tools of Stone-Age People
Roy Chapman Andrews, Back from China Describes Prehistoric Life
Miami Herald, August 25, 1925

“Stone implements and weapons of a race of men who lived thousands of years ago among sand dunes on the shore of a lake since swallowed up by the Gobi desert have been found far in the interior of Mongolia by the third Asiatic expedition of the American Museum of Natural History……

…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs laid by the dinosaur, the giant reptile that roamed the Asiatic uplands some 10,000,000 years ago….”

In case you missed it, Chapman believes that man lived with dinosaurs in ages past because they had made ornaments out of dinosaur eggs, something that could only be accomplished with unfossilized dinosaur eggs!

Andrews Expedition
Glasgow Herald, September 9, 1925

“Among the most unique of these discoveries were the various clutches of dinosaur’s eggs, which were unearthed to the number of forty this year and thirty last.…

….Fragmentary dinosaur’s eggs figure also among the human relics, for a number of pieces were found which had been cut in regular shapes, presumably to form ornaments for prehistoric belles.”

Humans Coeval with Dinosaur (Coeval: of the same or equal age, antiquity, or duration)
The Spokesman-Review – Aug 19, 1925

Photo: The Mongolians drilled and cracked dinosaur egg shells as well as ostrich egg shells to make jewelry. Ostrich eggshell jewelry is shown here.

“…These primitive men bored the shells and made ornaments of the eggs left by the dinosaur…..They used for the same purpose the egg shells of a gigantic ostrich, long ago extinct”.

Mr. Andrews went on to date the age of the Mongolian dinosaur civilization back to 25 million years ago as science came to move the age of the dinosaurs back further in time. Clearly the Mongolians were coeval with the dinosaurs whenever it was that they lived. Calling them primitive even though no human remains were found was their way of trying to preserve some kind of evolutionary order.

Additional Articles

Only 50,000 Years Old
The Meriden Daily Journal – Jun 18, 1925

“Moscow—Two human skeletons of the Neanderthal type, believed to be at least 50,000 years old recently found in a cave near Crimea.

The skeletons of dinosaurs, hyenas and bears were also found in the cave.”

Prehistoric Game Found
Monsters With Which Ante-dilluvian Man Contended
The Turners Falls Reporter – Dec 16, 1908

“The remains of the Dryopitheous or fossil man discovered on the Bengawan River, in Java mixed as they were with fossil bones of reptiles of the Cainozoic (SIC) age, and lying in the cretaceous strata, clearly prove that man was contemporary with the later of the giant Saurians.


Moreover, the discovery of the Nampa image, a piece of handiwork found in the cretaceous strata in Ada county, Idaho would imply that he had attained some slight degree of art. Assuming then that man was living in the Cainozoic (SIC) age, the question is, how did he survive his acquaintanceship with the gigantic Saurians….”

Confirms Story of Prehistoric Finds in Kenya Colony—U.S. Anthropologist Says Bones Prove Theory of Man’s First Habitat
In Stone Age Deposit
The Montreal Gazette – Sep 24, 1927

“….the Cutler dinosaur expedition to Tanganyika, who in six weeks found seven skulls at Nakeru in a Stone Age deposit, and also unearthed a complete skeleton of a six foot man buried twelve feet deep with more than 100 stone tools. Dr. Collie gave a pledge to the discoverer not to discuss the details of the Kenya find until after Dr. Leaky (yes that Dr. Leaky) has published them this fall.

He stressed the importance of the discovery because of the apparently inexhaustible supply of these remains, and the fact that traces of dinosaurs were found. Mr. Leaky was acting for the Royal Society and the Cambridge School of Anthropology, where he is a lecturer.”

The Sunday Tribune – Mar 15, 1925

Petrified Footprints of Man Assured Museum
Evidence of Human Life on American Continent Millions of Years Ago Offers Basis for Speculation
The Deseret News – Jul 24, 1934


“Here are the footprints of the Huntington Man claimed by scientists to have roamed the wilds of Utah nearly 200 million years ago. You will note that the foot widens out at the toes, indicating that the owner of these footprints must have had to walk on soft or miry ground. The prints are almost a foot long, and more than five inches across the toes. The deep mark at the side of the footprints was probably made by the head of a flint spear, resting on marshy ground.

….If these footprints were made when the sand of this period were soft then man must have been there to make them! So if you can, envision wild and woolly men riding tamed herbiverous dinosaurs racing up and down the country……”

In this gentler, less dogmatic Darwinist time, science appeared to be willing to admit that man and dinosaur interacted. The time difficulty enters in because they still accepted the Darwinist geological time scale. When was sandstone formed they believed; 200 million years ago. Therefore they reasoned, man must have been alive 200 million years ago-along with the dinosaurs.

The truth is that the rock formed and the man left his prints and dinosaurs all lived within the last few thousand years.

Unearthed Image Presents a Puzzle
The Calgary Daily Herald – Aug 6, 1924

“A rock image lately unearthed near grand Lake, high in the Colorado Rockies, presents a puzzle. It is a blue granite stone weighing 66 pounds. But what makes it remarkable is that it is covered with carvings indicating a very early period of human life.


The mammoth animals outlined are contemporaneous with the Cro-Magnon age. Among those pictured are prehistoric dinosaurs and mastodons. The main carving represents an early man with hands that have but three fingers. The flat nose pictured is generally associated with a race preceding the Aztecs according to J.A. Jeancon, curator of the Colorado Historical and Natural History Society.” Article

Oldest Footprints in the World
The Portsmouth Sunday Times – Feb 14, 1931

“A number of clearly defined footprints in solid rock have just been discovered in France which are believed to date back from two to three million years and perhaps record the mysterious first man. The face of the rock in which the prints are embodied is criss-crossed with the steps of dinosaurs and similar prehistoric animals and indicates that a terrific struggle once occurred there.

The imprints were, of course made when the rock was soft and then slowly hardened and were preserved for all time. The amazing discovery was made at Bagnoles-de-l’Onrne in Normandy by Dr. Marcel Morin, a well known French scientist.

…..Archeologists have been much impressed by this discovery. As a result of their investigations it is suggested that man first appeared in the earlier periods of the Tertiary Age of Mammals, which ranges loosely between two and sixty million years ago.”

How Science Responds to Its Own Discoveries

Nature is Interesting
Footprints in the Rock
Toledo Blade – Nov 1, 1950

By William Holt, a retired member of the faculty of Bowling Green State University and was recognized as one of the leading geologists in the nation.

“Occasionally peculiar shaped depressions in the surface of the bedrock have caused some persons with abnormal imagination, and a lack of geological training, to “see things” in the rock. Human footprints, hand impressions, and even tracks of dinosaurs or other prehistoric animals are recognized (?).

A most interesting case of a foot-print in a slab of surface rock was recently called to my attention. The footprint was in sandstone, and was so real (?) that to some at least there was no doubt that it was actually made by man. The main question seemed to be how many millions of years old it was.

Although I did not see the original, a clear photograph of it was quite sufficient in this case; and I attempted to make the answer clear to the questioners by the following statements:

First, that no human or animal could possibly make a deep imprint in solid, hard rock.

Second, that this particular Ohio bedrock was formed many millions of years before even primitive man existed. Hence no human foot ever could have stepped on the loose sediments of which this rock later was formed.”………William Holt

William is a materialist “scientist” and thus has trained himself not to believe his own lying eyes. In later years he got himself into trouble by reasoning that the IRS didn’t exist and therefore he didn’t have to pay taxes.

In Conclusion:

August 8, 1955 The Le Mars-Globe

“A skeleton found in a gravel pit here—a fairly complete skeleton, has been declared by Dr. Reynold Ruppe, state University of Iowa archaeologist, to be the remains of an ice-age man, who lived near the south edge of the glaciers which once covered Plymouth
County.

The Monona County ice-age man, who lived at least 10,000 years ago, ..was not like a modern Indian. He’s something older—and something new.

Bones of a dinosaur were found in the same deposit—about 10 feet deeper.

At first this led to speculation that the dinosaur was the aborigine’s pet, but that didn’t hang together. Dinosaurs disappeared from the earth a million years before the first, man showed up.

So the dinosaur must have left his bones a long, long time before the man died, was drowned or trapped in quicksand at the spot near, Turin where his skeleton was recovered.”

The reader sitting on the edge of his seat when he initially began to read this was quickly calmed by the explanation that this could not be what it might have seemed to be– he was reminded that there was no evidence that dinosaurs and man ever lived together! Science!

Though this scene in various forms, in various venues and with a variety of potential proofs has no doubt been played out thousands of times in thousands of locales, the Atheist continues to ask “where is the evidence” or “why hasn’t evidence of this interaction ever been found” and many Christians wonder also while nevertheless holding on to their beliefs. The relevant information is being suppressed-sometimes “automatically” because it doesn’t fit the paradigm.

See Also
Man and Dinosaur Co-Existence Proof Accepted by Science–Giant Footprints in Stone–Giant Humans in Stone–All Verified by Orthodox Scientist After 30 Years of Ridicule

Life is a Killer Problem for Science –And Hope for Alien Life; Dies Again. Plus, Shhh, Don’t Tell The Creationists

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Uncategorized | Posted by Chris Parker
Mar 21 2011


Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Gen 2:7/

Photo: Shhh, don’t tell the creationists!

As we’ve noted previously in this space, one of the most frequently used phrases in articles about science is; “scientists had previously thought”, or some close variation. Some claim that this is the very thing that is so wonderful about science, that science and its practioners refuse to rest on its/their laurels and that they/it keep searching for the truth and freely admit their mistakes when they’re discovered.

I personally hadn’t noticed that about science, but do note with interest that the internet and the current 24 hour media cycle appear to be speeding up the rate of “previous believism”.

To wit; Back in 1996 NASA’s announcement that alien bacteria had been discovered in a meteorite from Antarctica evoked quite a bit of international fanfare from inside and outside the scientific community. Although there were always skeptics of the “discovery”, it wasn’t until 2007 that the claim was thoroughly disproven when Mary Sue Bell, a University of Houston grad student was able to precisely recreate the alleged “bacterial” imprints with a lab created collision similar to a meteorite impacting a planetary surface.

NASA had to back away from its alien bacteria claims, but it took them 11 years.

On the othert hand, Ida, the alleged human ancestor fossil that was going to change everything, was introduced with much fanfare in April, 2009 and debunked before the end of that year, failing to make most top ten science story lists of 2009. Ida was replaced on some top ten lists with Ardi, another proposed earliest human ancestor, whose discovery had been announced in October of 2009.

However, by May of 2010, the same journal; “Science”, which had mucho ballyhooed Ardi, had this to say:

“Ardi,” the fossil female whose discovery is thought to stretch our human ancestry back more than 4 million years, has been challenged by specialists who discount the evidence of how she lived and maintain she was never a forerunner of the human line.”

Ardi and Ida were both effectively debunked as human ancestors within six to eight months of their worldwide discovery announcements, setting new records “for scientists had previously thought” reversals.

The Whole Alien Life and the Origin of Terrestrial Life Thing

It had taken NASA 11 years to back away from their 1976 alleged alien life discovery. On Friday, March 4th of this year NASA scientist Richard Hoover published a peer reviewed article in the Journal “Cosmology” with the claim that that he had found tiny fossils of alien life in the remnants of a meteorite.

This story was published internationally under headlines like: “NASA Scientist Finds ‘Alien Life’ Fossils”. Naturally, the NASA connection seemingly provided some support to the claim which was met with excitement-and skepticism.

Hold that thought for a minute before; the rest of the story.

“Twenty years ago the palaeontological community gasped as geoscientists revealed evidence for the oldest bacterial fossils on the planet.”..naturenews

The evidence here was a piece of rock found in Australia known as the Apex Chert and it contained it was said evidence of the earliest life on earth. Scientists declared that the Apex Chert was 3.5 billion years old, whereas Genesis would set its maximum age at 10,000 years or less. Last week there was a development re the Apex Chert as described by this headline:

“Whoops! Scientists left red-faced as oldest ‘evidence of life’ turns out to be iron deposits”

Whoops indeed. And what about all those evolution adherents who had snootily quoted this “fact” to non-evolution believers for twenty years? This ‘scientists had previously thought” item took even longer than the 1976 NASA “discovery” to reverse.

Getting back to NASA scientist Richard Hoover’s “alien life fossils”.

They were announced on a Friday and disavowed by “top scientists in different disciplines”, including NASA by the following Monday, by noon, setting new standards for scientists had previously thought type reversals. No alien fossils and quite probably no bacterial fossils.

So what’s going on? Why the dubious claims of proofs of early life and of the discovery of extra-terrestrial life?

The title of a recent article published in Scientific American* and written by John Horgan might provide a clue; “Pssst! Don’t tell the creationists, but scientists don’t have a clue how life began”. S8int.com blogged about this earlier this year in our article; When It Comes to Explanations for the Origin of Life, Genesis Has the Quality; So, Science Comes At You With Quantity

We think that materialist science understands that if it cannot accept the Genesis account a good counter would be to be able to prove exactly how life “actually” began. They have been and will continue to be unsuccessful. Frustrated perhaps with this paralyzing failure, some scientists have felt the need to come up with some incredible theories to fill the void. Increasingly, the idea that life may have begun elsewhere in the universe and made its way to earth on a comet has become popular even though this only moves the origin of life problem to a new location.

Recently, famous Atheist Dawkins, allowed that while he couldn’t accept God as the Designer/Creator of life on earth, he didn’t have the same reticence in believing some alien was the designer/creator.

Another famous Atheist, or so he claims, named John W. Loftus, the author of several Atheistic books was very excited about NASA scientist, Richard Hoover’s claims about alien life fossils. He posted the following telling post on his Debunking Christianity Blog entitled: NASA Scientist Finds Evidence of Alien Life “

See, the Bible doesn’t mention alien life. Therefore proof that alien life exists or even that it existed in the past would serve as a way of debunking Christianity, God and the Bible.

In the wake of recent events, however that post is no longer available.

*Thanks to CreationEvolutionHeadlines for the heads up on this article.

Ancient Mound Builder Controversy: Did They Interact with and Memorialize Allosaurus, T-Rex or Carnotaurus? Plus, Champ or Ogopogo?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 28 2011

by Chris Parker

Drawing: Mound Builder Artifact from the book: “Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley, 1887

It’s amazing how little we as a supposedly educated culture actually know about the past. Even if we’ve studied the past, much of what is being taught or that is commonly believed is untrue. For instance, Columbus did not “discover” America. He was preceded here certainly by its inhabitants of the time, but also by the Norse, the Chinese, Africans, the Irish and the Vikings to name a few. Nero did not fiddle while Rome burned, Eve did not eat an apple, Egyptians were Africans. Dinosaurs and man Did interact

When in comes to the American continent, Native Americans supposedly came here from Asia 20,000 years ago across the Bering Straight land Bridge. However, a mysterious people, now called the Mound Builders whose works the Native Americans didn’t know were apparently here before them and their artifacts show that they interacted with the mastodon, dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles. Dinosaurs and aquatic reptiles supposedly went extinct more than 65 million years ago.

No one knows for sure who the Mound Builders were and where they came from but one thing is certain; no one believes that they lived with the dinosaurs 65 million years ago. The question is; did some dinosaurs and Mound builders live together here on this continent in “recent” times?

I present here some theories about the actual aimals being depicted here. Of course I could be wrong but I feel that if science believes that the ancient mound depicted on the left represents a Swan rather than a quadruped such as a sauropod that I’m on safe ground.

“The group of cultures collectively called Mound Builders were prehistoric inhabitants of North America who constructed various styles of earthen mounds for burial, residential and ceremonial purposes. These included the Pre-Columbian cultures of the Archaic period; Woodland period (Adena and Hopewell cultures); and Mississippian period; dating from roughly 3000 BCE to the 16th century CE, and living in regions of the Great Lakes, the Ohio River valley, and the Mississippi River valley and its tributaries.

As a comparison, beginning with the construction of Watson Brake about 3500 BC in present-day Louisiana, indigenous peoples started building earthwork mounds in North America nearly 1000 years before the pyramids were constructed in Egypt. Since the 19th century, the prevailing scholarly consensus has been that the mounds were constructed by Indigenous peoples of the Americas, early cultures distinctly separate from the historical Native American tribes extant at the time of European colonization of North America. The historical Native Americans were generally not knowledgeable about the civilizations that produced the mounds. Research and study of these cultures and peoples has been based on archaeology and anthropology.” Wikipedia

Mound Builder Theropod Dinosaur


This artifact (also pictured at the top of the page) is a drawing from the book; Records of Ancient Races in the Mississippi Valley: Written By William McAdams published in 1887 Page 14.

The author and the experts refer to the depiction as a “dragon” and it might seem presumptuous of me to disagree (particularly since we have only the head of the creature) but I see something else entirely. The Mound Builder creatures surrounding this piece are for the most part recognizable and are sculpted in a realistic style. There is no reason to suppose that this is a mythological creature other than because one has an A Priori scientific belief that these creatures did not exist within the lifetime of man.

Here is the author’s discussion of the piece in question and the other pieces found with it in the mound.

Graphic:Left, T-rex, Right Carnotaurus

“In our collection of pottery from the ancient mounds we have several pieces ornamented with dragon-like devices. We give an illustration of two of these; burial vases, with a most pronounced dragon-head standing up from the rim of the vessel. There is the great mouth with the teeth revealed, and protruding tongue, with fierce eyes, and the general aspect, not only of the Piasa, but of those mythological representations of the dragon so frequently found in Asia. We present a sketch of another.

Graphic:Left, Allosaurus, Right Carnotaurus


It is all the more interesting since we found with it a magnificent collection of pottery, of more than a hundred pieces, at the base of the great Cahokia mound, (pictured above, right) in the American Bottom, in Madison County, Ills.

This is the largest artificial mound in the United States, and perhaps in the world, being one-hundred feet in height, and covering with its base sixteen acres of ground. It is the centre of a group of seventy-two others, which surround it, and of which a description will be given farther on in this work. They are situated on a level plain, miles from any natural elevation. For a complete description and survey of them, see “The Antiquities of Cahokia, or Monk’s Mound’

Upon taking these curious old burial vases from the place where they had rested for ages, it was like exhuming a museum of natural history in ceramics ; for these were the shapes of animals, birds, reptiles, fishes, and aflmost all animated nature, together with the shapes of From Cahoki Mound. ithe human form. Among them were several vases adorned with the dragon heads.”

This is a realistically sculpted creature, posed withn a frog, it is certainly not a lizard and its teeth and head indicate that it is a carnivorous reptile. Quite frequently, such a creature is laabeled a dragon, and if not then a crocodile or alligator. This creature is clearly not one of those. It appears to be a lifelike depiction of a theropod dinosaur; a species similar to the allosaurus, t-rex or Carnotaurus. Are those horns on the top of its head or are those prominent eye ridges as depicted in a number of t-rex renditions. Keep this in mind; the piece you see here may have been done by an eyewitness.

We have compared here the Mound Builder creature with several examples of meat eating theropod dinosaurs. In our minds, the Carnotaurus, to date found in South America, most closely matches the Mound Builder artrifact.

Carnotaurus (pronounced /?k?rn??t?r?s/; meaning “meat-eating bull”, referring to its distinct bull-like horns (Latin carne = flesh + Greek tauros = bull) was a large predatory dinosaur, with horns vaguely resembling a bull’s. Only one species, Carnotaurus sastrei has been described so far. Carnotaurus lived in Patagonia, Argentina (La Colonia Formation) during the Campanian to the Maastrichtian stage of the Late Cretaceous, and was discovered by José Bonaparte, who has uncovered many other South American dinosaurs. Wikipedia

Allosaurus and T-rex are North American dinosaurs according to science.

Mound Builder Aquatic Reptile: Champ or Ogopogo

The Tusayan people are named after a ruin located in the Grand canyon National park in Arizona. These ancestral Puebloan people lived in the area until 1,000 years ago archaeologists believe. In American Anthropologist, Volume 5, January 1892, in an article entitled “ A Few Tusayan Pictographs” is a very interesting pictograph showing four long necked creatures.


Aquatic reptiles became extinct more than 65 million years ago as did the long necked sauropods according to science. The pictographs were thought to be a little as a thousand years old, possibly several thousand but certainly not millions of years old. Could science be wrong or are the more benign “nothing to see here, move it along” explanations of the archeologists satisfactory?

Here we compare the Mound Builder pictographs with; an ancient Roman “sea monster” and with several other classic sea or lake monsters.

Here’s what the author wrote about the pictograph in question:

“It will be noticed in examining the cut of these four pictographs of the great serpent that one is about horizontal and the other three erect. It will also be noticed that the horizontal specimen has a zigzag outline, as if in motion, which the others do not have. They are undoubtedly, however, figures of the same mythological personage”.

Ogopogo and Champ


“Ogopogo or Naitaka (Salish: n’ha-a-itk, “lake demon”) is the name given to a cryptid lake monster reported to live in Okanagan Lake, in British Columbia, Canada. Ogopogo has been allegedly seen by First Nations people since the 19th century. The most common description of Ogopogo is a forty- to fifty-foot-long (12 to 15 m) sea serpent. It has supposedly been photographed and even been caught on tape.” …Wikipedia


“Champ, or Champy is the name given to a reputed lake monster living in Lake Champlain, a natural freshwater lake in North America, partially situated across the U.S.-Canada border in the Canadian province of Quebec and partially situated across the Vermont-New York border. While there is no scientific evidence for the cryptid’s existence, there have been over 300 reported sightings. The legend of the monster is considered a draw for tourism in the Burlington, Vermont area.”… Wikipedia

The creature appears to be drawn with a beard which is typical of some “sea monsters” and drawn with a type of headcrest or ears.

I’m not suggesting that this creature is either Ogopogo or Champ but that it could represent a tyoe of sea or lake monster that has been seen and described by even the Romans and Greeks and by ancient and recent North and South Americans.

It appears that neither theropod dinosaurs or aquatic reptiles died out millons of years ago and were instead seen and memorialized by ancient peoples.

Evolutionists Brains Struggle to Come Up With Convincing “Brain Evolution” Story; A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth

Church of Darwin, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 24 2010


“I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.” Psalm 139:14

“A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth.” CNET News

“A Single Human Brain More Powerful Than All Computers Ever Made”…Brain and Mind Journal

“The most complex object yet discovered anywhere in the universe is the organ that fills the space between our ears……How this unfathomably complex organization allows us to perceive, behave, think, feel, and control our environment presents us with what may be the most striking puzzle of fit we have yet encountered. The puzzle actually has three aspects. First, we must consider how over millions of years the primitive nervous system of our early ancestors evolved into an organ that has made it possible for the human species to become the most adaptable and powerful organism on the planet–living, thriving, and modifying the environment (both intentionally and unintentionally) from the tropics to the polar regions, and perhaps soon in outer space and on other planets.

Second, we must understand how it is possible for the intricate structure of the brain to develop from a single fertilized egg cell. Finally, we must try to comprehend how the mature brain is able to continue to modify its own structure so that it can acquire new skills and information to continue surviving and reproducing” [sic], ……Without Miracles by Gary Cziko

‘We are missing the fossil record of human cognition,’ Lewontin said at the meeting. ‘So we make up stories’” Richard Lewontin of Harvard University


HUMAN BRAIN HAS MORE SWITCHES THAN ALL THE COMPUTERS AND ROUTERS ON EARTH

The human brain is truly awesome. (Wonderful?)

A typical, healthy one houses some 200 billion nerve cells, which are connected to one another via hundreds of trillions of synapses. Each synapse functions like a microprocessor, and tens of thousands of them can connect a single neuron to other nerve cells. In the cerebral cortex alone, there are roughly 125 trillion synapses, which is about how many stars fill 1,500 Milky Way galaxies.

These synapses are, of course, so tiny (less than a thousandth of a millimeter in diameter) that humans haven’t been able to see with great clarity what exactly they do and how, beyond knowing that their numbers vary over time. That is until now.

Researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine have spent the past few years engineering a new imaging model, which they call array tomography, in conjunction with novel computational software, to stitch together image slices into a three-dimensional image that can be rotated, penetrated and navigated. Their work appears in the journal Neuron this week.

To test their model, the team took tissue samples from a mouse whose brain had been bioengineered to make larger neurons in the cerebral cortex express a fluorescent protein (found in jellyfish), making them glow yellow-green. Because of this glow, the researchers were able to see synapses against the background of neurons.

They found that the brain’s complexity is beyond anything they’d imagined, almost to the point of being beyond belief, says Stephen Smith, a professor of molecular and cellular physiology and senior author of the paper describing the study:

One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor–with both memory-storage and information-processing elements–than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches. A single human brain has more switches than all the computers and routers and Internet connections on Earth.

More, including a video here at CNET NEWS

Thanks: M. Pacheco