Archive for the ‘Sophistication of Ancestors’ Category

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2013


“When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; because of his crashings they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins.” Job 41 NKJV

           

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

by Chris Parker
Copyright 2013 C. Parker & S8int.com
Most Recent Prior Article on this topic; No Your Dinosaurs….

Good afternoon.

Dr. Ernst Mayr was a “leading” evolutionary biologist whose work provided a basis for what is known as the “modern synthesis” which is an amalgamation of Darwinian evolution theory and genetics. His work also provided the basis for Niles Eldredge’s and Stephen Jay Gould’s co theory of “punctuated equilibrium” –proposed because those biologists really did believe that “the extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology.”

Following Mayr’s lead they proposed that speciation could take place rapidly in small, isolated groups—where massive evolutionary leaps took place-making transitional fossils difficult to find because they would not exist. In that way they sought to solve a problem that most evolution believing laity don’t even know exists.

This same kind of ‘thought science” wherein motivated materialists scientists create interesting theories to solve or explain away “problems” with Materialist science is performed by; big bang cosmologists with their invisible dark matter and energy and, of course by other physicists who promote string theory (invisible, infinite universes) to explain the amazingly anthropic (man and life friendly) nature of this universe.

But back to Dr. Ernest Mayr; in a debate with Dr. Duane Gish in 1984, Dr. Mayr then a leading voice among evolutionists said the following:

“…creationists have stated that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries in time…Were this momentous statement true the names of its discoverers would thunder down the corridors of time as individuals who made one of the most outstanding discoveries of the twentieth century.”

No doubt, based on his statement Dr. Mayr, who died in 2005, was extremely certain that there were tens of millions of years standing between man and dinosaurs.

As a leading evolutionist and as one upon whose work much of the modern synthesis and neo Darwinism was built he well understood the havoc that would be wrought on materialist beliefs regarding the descent of species and the evolutionary and geological timelines if it could be proved that man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

Nevertheless our plan here at s8int.com today is to prove that Mayr’s “thundering down the corridors of time” should have begun even if this is now the 21st Century.

Toe-tally

The current evolutionary thinking regarding the manus and pes (hands and feet) of dinosaurs is that the fossils found with five fingers and toes are the most ancient dinosaurs and that through evolutionary change more “modern” dinosaurs evolved to have fewer fingers and toes.

This is the same kind of “logic” and thought used to assist in forming the well known but fact free horse evolutionary sequence. One might well wonder why fewer fingers and toes would be considered an evolutionary advancement? Is it a case of “I cried because I had no one finger gloves until I met a man with five fingers”?

Dr. Niles Eldredge, (mentioned above re: punctuated equilibrium) a curator at the American Museum in New York– where by the way the horse evolution series is still being shown said the following:

“There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.” ……Harper’s Magazine, 1985, p60.

The very masculine named Boyce Rensberger, science writer and evolutionist said the following regarding the famous horse series and its accompanying toe-tally ridiculous evolutionary assumptions:

“The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown” . Boyce Rensberger: Houston Chronicle, 5 Nov. 1980, sec. 4, p. 15.

Today it is only high school biology textbook writers and the evolution accepting laity who do not know that the evolutionary horse sequence, a supposed “proof” of the reality of biological evolution is wrong and is not actually supported by the fossil evidence. The same thing will eventually be found to be true of dinosaurs as well.

The dinosaur that we will look at today would have been one of the older dinosaurs according to evolutionary theory making its appearance in pre Columbian art even more of an upset. The other example which will be provided herein today is from a creature said by evolutionists to have lived even before the dinosaurs.

Let’s begin with the thundering down the corridors of time, already.

“265 Million Year Old” Therapsid Pre-Dinosaurs Carved Upon the Roof of the 1300 Year Old Kailashnath Temple (Ellora Caves)

Photo: Suresh.G.Isave – Roof of Kailas Temple, Ellora Caves,India



“Kailashnath Temple, also Kailash or Kail?sa or Kailasanath Temple, is a famous temple, one of the 34 monasteries and temples known collectively as the Ellora Caves, extending over more than 2 km, that were dug side by side in the wall of a high basalt cliff in the complex located at Ellora, Maharashtra, India.

Of these, the Kailasa (cave 16) is a remarkable example of Dravidian architecture on account of its striking proportion; elaborate workmanship architectural content and sculptural ornamentation of rock-cut architecture. It is designed to recall Mount Kailash, the abode of Lord Shiva. It is a megalith carved out of one single rock. It was built in the 8th century by the Rashtrakuta king Krishna I.” ….Wikipedia


Perhaps it is fitting to first look at an absolute dead, lock three dimensional sculpture of four therapsids atop the roof of the Temple at Kailashnath built around the 8th century A.D. Fitting to look at them first because evolutionists believe that they preceded the dinosaurs. Therapsida are a group of synapsids, which supposedly include mammals and their ancestors in the evolutionary scheme. Therapsid dicynodonts appeared on every continent.

These creatures are said by evolutionists to have appeared prior to the evolution of mammals and dinosaurs. We’ll consider the dinosaur “proof” as a second case study.

For comparison purposes we are showing the Ellora “lions” juxtaposed with Moschops, a specific therapsid (perhaps the most well known) whose fossils have been found primarily in South Africa.

As you can see there is a very close resemblance between the modern depictions of a therapsid and the ancient “lions” on the roof of the temple complex. The skull shape and other morphological characteristics, including the bent elbows, body shape etc. make therapsid a good initial identification.

By the way lions do have five toes/fingers on their front paws but the fifth is technically on the wrist and does not make contact with the ground. They do not really look like lions but they do have manes and there was no other ready identification or so it seems. They certainly were not ever going to be identified as therapsids.

In point of fact we have already looked at these creatures and identified them crypto-zoo-archaeologically as representations of dinocephalians like Moschops. What’s diiferent today is that the hands of these animals–God’s creatures are upon us. That is, we found a photo of them with significant enough resolution for us to be able to look at the morphological characteristics of the ancient artists depictions of their manus and pes (hands and feet).

The graphic/photo leading this section is a comparison of the “Ellora Lions” with a depiction of Moschops (top left).
The photo following right conclusively concurs with the therapsid identification. The hands (front feet) of therapsids such as moschops was quite unusual. They had tree-trunk like legs with five toes dispersed around in a semi-circle–exactly what we can clearly see in the combo photos comparing moschops front feet with that of the Ellora lions. In fact the similarities are uncanny, unmistakable and undeniable! These are not lions-they are therapsids very similar to moschops.


If therapsids were depicted 1300 years ago on the roof of the Ellora Cave complex then we need not give credence to evolutionist’s beliefs regarding when these creatures became extinct, what creatures allegedly evolved from which or even what their geological boundaries presumably were.

If the scientific understanding regarding when these creatures lived is off by 250 million years how can one credit anything else science would have to say concerning therapsids?

If you want to recreate this “proof” for yourself, I suggest the following: 1) “Google” or “Bing” search for, “Moschops” and then look at images. Pull down a few images of Moschops that you find expressive of what the creature may have looked like in the view of modern artists.

2)Pull up those photos in a photo editing program. 3)Google image search :”Ellora Caves, roof” or “Kailashnath Temple roof” until you find several showing the “lions”. 4)Download or copy some of those pictures and compare in your photo editing program with Moschops. You should see some very strong similarities between the two sets because the creatures on the roof are in fact therapsids—supposedly extinct tens and tens of millions of years ago.

Next, as an additional “proof” go back to Google and do an image search of Moschops, “feet”, or Moschops “manus” (hands). With a little persistence you will find a drawing or a photo which shows the tree trunk like front legs with five fingers distributed like rose petals in a semi circle around the legs. The toes of this creature are unusual in their shape and distribution and this pattern will be easy to recognize when seen again.

Go back to Google (or Bing) and find a very high resolution of the lion’s feet from the roof of the Ellora complex. This result will be instantly recognizable and conclusive. These creatures can be seen from virtually every angle in various online photographs. The “lions” of the Ellora Caves have all the morphological features of a therapsid dicynodont.

It wouldn’t be that easy to lose 250 million years overnight I’m sure. Darwinists claim that this creature was a mammal-like reptile but given its mammal like external ears and hair perhaps it was a mammal- a fact which in and of itself would destroy the evolution tree.

Photo: Anteosaurus is a therapsid whose fossil’s have been found in India.


Coelacanth aside Darwinists could not possibly be this wrong– you might reason. If after looking at these photos you are still not convinced that the same creature that is represented online as a therapsid dicynodont is the same creature with the same matching manus and pes (hands and feet)and not a bit of doubt was created then you might want to consider the following:

Your belief in the Darwinian system and all its attendant precepts, corollaries, speculations and just so stories may not be evidenced based. Perhaps your belief in this system is “faith” based after all and there is no “evidence” pro or con which could persuade you that man and dinosaur ever co-existed or that the “extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology”.

You may be a “true believer”?

           

700 Year Old Plumbate Vessel Features A Dinosaur with Hands and Feet Clearly Depicted


“Regarding the timing of this vessel, Garduño said that this is late-characterized by its decorative variant cutaway designs are distinguished by their angular strokes a stiff-pot Iguanas Polychrome type, which is one of the components ceramic diagnostics Ixcuintla cultural phase (1100-1350 AD), Middle Postclassic, which represents the later stage in the long sequence of regional development Aztatlán culture.

This is extremely significant if we consider that the leading specialists in the study of iconic ceramic codex type Mixteca-Puebla style, agree that this appeared in the central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) during the Late Postclassic (1250-1521 AD), and even at a later date to 1300 AD in the Oaxacan Mixteca”.. Source:Puerta Norte Acaponeta http://elblogpuertanorte.blogspot.com/2013/05/recupera-el-centro-inah-nayarit.html

Photo: iguanodon with “Hands”


Plumbate ware was manufactured by the ancient Toltecs and is found all around Central America. It was quite frequently orange in color or glossy with incised art.

I have looked at quite a number of pieces of pre Columbian art. Upon initial inspection (FIG 1)I thought that it was perhaps the head of a dinosaur projecting from the vessel but like a number of those pieces that we’ve examined on s8int.com, I wondered if it would be convincing to the true believers or rather the true Unbelievers.


Then as I examined the incision I noticed that it appeared to have elbows and a hand with a number of fingers–with a particularly prominent thumb or possibly a thumb claw. Noting the teeth I thought it most probably a meat-eater and so set to work researching dinosaur fingers and toes etc.. Of course I also initially looked at the dinosaurs of Central and South America.



Dinosaurs with five fingers (or so it appears to have) with the teeth of a theropod dinosaur are supposed to be some of the oldest dinosaurs. “Basal theropods”-and of course I believe in no such thing.. and other dinosaurs with five or four fingers (the depiction appears to be five fingers with only the knuckle of one of the fingers showing) include certain theropods, famously, iguanosaurus and plateosaurus. FIG 2 shows a comparison between the hand of plateosaurus, left, the “hand” of the artifact, center and iguanosaurus, right. Baryonx, a European dinosaur with South American “cousins” in the spinosaurid family is shown in the photo at the top of this article due to its prominent thumb claw- similar to that depicted on the plumbate artifact. FIG 2A shows the upturned hand of the artifact compared with the upturned hand of iguanosaurus with his well known thumb claw.

“The most primitive dinosaurs in the famous theropod group (that later included Tyrannosaurus rex) had five “fingers.” Later theropods had three…” Live Science


After quite a bit of research I was able to find an additional photograph of this artifact and thus was able to see in some detail the artist’s rendering of both the hands and feet of the animal depicted. These fingers and toes make it a certainty that it is a dinosaur that is being depicted by the artist and even provides clues as to the specific species of dinosaur that the artist was able to interact with.



The complete thoroughness of the artist’s rendition of this dinosaur indicates that he/she was familiar with this creature and that he/she had specific morphological knowledge of how the creature moved and how it looked. The dinosaur being depicted is apparently bi-pedal and the artist’s sculpture of how that creature moved is exactly how modern artists might have depicted a bi-pedal dinosaur.

The new photo shows the creature from the other side. What’s clear is that what we are looking at on the other side is a five, possibly four fingered dinosaur hand. The two sides are not identical and the new photo provides details of the elbow, the hand, and the rear feet (See FIG 6). It appears from this side that the hand is represented as three extended fingers and two knuckles.



I believe that the creature’s reptilian head and aspect along with its meat eating dinosaur teeth if I may– comfortably place it in the dinosaur realm for those with open minds.

Spend a few minutes Googling iguana hands or lizard hands as well as the hands of dinosaurs and the conclusion will be all but inescapable. In the end I’ve moved away from the iguanodon identification because of the teeth of this dinosaur. The teeth are of different sizes with very large teeth at the front. A dinosaur that meets the qualifications of being a meat eater, with five fingers and heterodontal (different sized) (See FIG 7) teeth with relatives found in South America is the heterodontosaurus.

Photo: Plumbate dinosaur depiction compared to skeleton of heterodontosaurus FIG 5.



Heterodontosauridae (“different-toothed lizards”) is a family of early ornithischian dinosaurs that were likely among the most basal (primitive) members of the group. Although their fossils are rare, they lived around the globe beginning in the late Triassic Period, and a few late-surviving species persisted into the Early Cretaceous.

Heterodontosaurids were fox-sized dinosaurs less than 2 meters (6.6 ft) in length, including a long tail. They are known mainly for their characteristic teeth, including enlarged canine-like tusks and cheek teeth adapted for chewing, analogous to those of Cretaceous hadrosaurids. Their diet was herbivorous or possibly omnivorous.

Manidens is a genus of heterodontosaurid dinosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Patagonia. Fossils have been found from the Cañadon Asfalto Formation in Chubut Province, Argentina, dating to the Bajocian…Wikipedia



In the next few slides we compare the ancient, pre Columbian artifact with Ceratosaurus and Herrerasaurus. Ceratosaurus because it is a “basal” theropod with an interesting fingers that also had some interesting “head” features such as a snout horn and other protuberances on its head which might incline one to consider it as the animal being depicted. However, assuming that the artist had an actual creature in mind, the teeth did not appear to match.

On the whole though I believe that the ceratosaurus depiction assists us in seeing how close the ancient depiction is to that of modern dinosaur depictions.

The other depiction is of Herrerasaurus. Herrerasaurus had claws similar to those of the plateosaurus above (FIG 2).

Herrerasaurus was given the name “Herrera lizard” because it was found by an Andean goat farmer named Victorino Herrera…Wikipedia.

Photo: Artifact compared to Heterodontosaurus.



The ancient artifact from central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) was likely manufactured 600 t0 700 years ago during the Late Postclassic period between (1250-1521 AD. The artist clearly represented the hands, fingers, head, dentition and rear feet of a bi-pedal dinosaur which had to be living at the time. It was a dinosaur (animal) that he was very familiar with. We can match the fingers and toes with several species of dinosaur though we will admit that a final identification as to species is inconclusive. A dinosaur identification is however; conclusive.

In his review of Carl Sagan’s last book in his review entitled “Billions and Billions of Demons”, Harvard university evolutionist Richard Lewontin said the following.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ”

One can select more than one response in the Poll below.

Convinced that Man and Dinosaur Lived Together?

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I love that quote because it is so honest. Never mind the scientific process we take these positions because we refuse A priori to believe in God or in anything which would tend to prove that God exists. Unfortunately for Lewontin et. al., they have not succeeded. The “Divine foot” has always been completely through the door.

The evidence demonstrated by these two artifacts shows that never mind the Divine Foot, Lewontin et. al.,- the hand of God’s dinosaur is upon thee as is the whole creation.

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody!
Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody.

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 19 2013


Isaiah 35:7
“And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water; in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.”

           
“No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”. by Chris Parker, s8int.com
           

Before you vote; See the follow up to this article Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Did Ancient Artists See and Memorialize Dinosaurs In Their Art?

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Prologue

In the movie; “The Princess Bride” an important character, Inigo has a conversation with the man in black during a sword fight and that conversation has become a trope in television and movies (convention or device used in creative works). The conversation goes something like this:

Inigo: “I admit it: you are better than I am!”
Man in Black: “Then why are you smiling?”
Inigo: “Because I know something you don’t know.”
Man in Black: “And what is that?”
Inigo: “I AM NOT LEFT HANDED” [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]

I sometimes have the feeling that I am in Inigo’s position when I find myself in a conversation with someone about man and dinosaurs living at the same time.

“You believe that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time within the last 10,000 years they’ll say incredulously”? Or perhaps they’ll say it sneeringly, or contemptuously or in some rare cases even sadly or compassionately.

They are quite certain that they have the upper hand, the science, the good sense, the pure knowledge the unmitigated certainty. They slap their foreheads. They roll their eyes. All that. They believe that they are winning this “fight”-discussion-debate because-come on! They may even be fellow believers.

They’re thinking that I have set science aside for some kind of blind faith belief in what science has said is impossible-for the sake of the Bible. They’re thinking I’m living in some anti-science anti-evidence bubble. However, as a Christian I have choices. I could believe as some Christian’s do that God created through evolution and that man and dinosaur did miss each other by millions of years.

I could believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and thus man and dinosaur barely met. I could believe as some Christians do that God sent unbelievers a strong delusion because of their unbelief (Romans 1) and simply put the bones of animals that never existed in the ground in order to further delude them.

I could simply choose not to speak when this topic is raised thinking that as a Christian it is outside of my pay grade, that the answers are unknowable. I could choose to be cowed by the sheer numbers of people who unblinkingly accept the current paradigm.

Caption: The Real Postosuchus? See Below

But I know something they don’t know. I took a fact based approach. I went where the evidence took me and in this internet age the truth can be found. Many non-Christians don’t know that faith is supposed to be built- not on nothing as they assume—but on evidence. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 1:1

I have spent a lot of time sifting through the evidence in ancient history, the work of ancient “biologists” the articles in old newspapers and recently the evidence in world famous archaeological museums. The evidence is clear. The evidence is persuasive.

The evidence proves that dinosaurs and man lived together all over the world in the last few thousand years. Now, the Bible is a “type” of sword and in this dinosaur and man conversation we’re having they are the ones who don’t have the facts or the truth. There is a reason why I am smiling:– I AM NOT LEFT HANDED!

Peabody Museum Zoomorphic Stone Heads

Historians say that dragons appear in the history and art of virtually every ancient culture (as do stories of a great flood). Here’s an interesting fact along those lines; no matter what culture a piece of ancient art comes from everyone can instantly recognize a dragon. Isn’t that interesting? Here we have a supposedly completely mythological creature, a product of the imagination of man and culture and yet they agree across geography and time in the salient characteristics of their portrayals with the added peculiarity that everyone knows that they are dragons?

No modern artist who works for a science journal or a museum or is otherwise engaged in depicting dinosaurs from a few bones is going to draw a dragon-like creature. So, although dragons are reptilian, frightening sometimes preternaturally large creatures—and so are dinosaurs they don’t often look much alike when you get down to the details. But here’s the rub when it comes to that; no one living actually knows what dinosaurs looked like.

In prior articles on this topic we’ve often quoted Discover Magazine on this point;

There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster. Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. Discover Magazine, What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like? By William Speed Weed, Christopher Griffith|Friday, September 01, 2000

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/sep/featdino

Of course, Discover Magazine isn’t the only source that admits that science is just guessing when it puts forth a drawing or illustration of a dinosaur—particularly when many dinosaurs are only known from a few bones.

A new book entitled “All Yesterdays: Unique and Speculative Views of Dinosaurs and Other Prehistoric Animals” by paleo artists C.M Koseman and John Conway is a review of dinosaur depictions and misconceptions in science art and a speculation about potential alternate depictions. They are basically letting the reader in on their secret that the work they do is simply informed speculation.


In the photo on the right they freely speculate on how a dinosaur paleontologist might have interpreted the bones (absent muscle and soft parts) of the cow and the housecat (bottom).

This interpretation problem makes it tougher on “crypto-zoo-archaeologists” like me. My hypothesis that man and dinosaur lived during the same age and that the ancient peoples would have left evidence in the form of their art, history and artifacts is complicated by the fact that the work of paleo artists today might not match up with the work of the actual eyewitnesses living in the past.

Thus, for instance a dinosaur in an archaeological museum like Harvard’s Peabody Museum might be perfectly depicted by the ancient artist but not match up with current thinking on how that dinosaur looked and go unrecognized; categorized as zoomorphic, unknown, animal, mythological creature or simply reptile. (Actually my experience is that any depiction recognizable as a dinosaur or one which is deemed too close does not end up in the front room of the museum in any case).

For example, in eyewitness viewings of what I believe are living pterosaurs over the last few years some have described the creature the saw as “almost prehistoric looking”, which could mean that they saw a living creature that did not completely comport with modern illustrations of the creature.

Moche Culture Vase in the Form of…?

In the last few weeks I set out to prove my hypothesis at the Harvard Peabody, online archaeological museum site as well as at other online collection sites. The Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University “is steward to one of the oldest and largest collections of cultural objects in the Western Hemisphere”. Other online collections visited include, the Penn Museum, the Met and several Museums of Central and South America.

Could it be shown that creatures that are recognizable as dinosaurs and Not dragons-in the mythological sense are somehow going unnoticed in their online collections? Can we show how specific types of dinosaurs might have been erroneously depicted? In that case, the depiction would have to be close enough for an identification to be made.

In this article and shall we say “collection” I intend to show once again through the arts of ancient peoples that man and dinosaur lived together within the last 5,000 years—but only to the fair and open minded.

           
The Eyewitness to Recent, Ancient History Dinosaur Collection, Part 1

1)Chasmosaurus at the Museo Larco, Peru


Actually it is not a piece from the Peabody that I wish to start with. It is a piece from the Museo Larco that illustrates the points we have been making about identification and misidentification most clearly. (See complete vessel at top of this article).

The Larco Museum (Spanish: Museo Arqueológico Rafael Larco Herrera) is a privately owned museum of pre-Columbian art, located in the Pueblo Libre District of Lima, Peru. The museum is housed in an 18th-century vice-royal building built over a 7th-century pre-Columbian pyramid.

The Inca civilization spanned the period of 1438 to 1533 in pre-Columbian South America. That would make this piece between 500 to 600 years old.

Inca Pot Water Carrier Lima
Museo Larco, Peru

I believe that the animal atop this Inca water carrier (and atop this article) is a ceratopsian dinosaur of a type similar to Chasmosaurus particularly given the placement of its horn and the shape of its frill. Ceratopsians might have broken down neatly into the categories now suggested by science or they could have been as widely divergent as dogs are today. They may have been sexually dimorphic and animals identified as belonging to another species may have only been sexually dimorphic or juvenile versions of other science-identified species.

“Chasmosaurus (/?kæzm??s?r?s/ KAZ-mo-SAWR-?s) is a genus of ceratopsid dinosaur from the Upper Cretaceous Period of North America. Its name means ‘opening lizard’, referring to the large openings (fenestrae) in its frill (Greek chasma meaning ‘opening’ or ‘hollow’ or ‘gulf’ and sauros meaning ‘lizard’). With a length of 4–5 metres (13–16 ft) and a weight of 2 tonnes (2.2 short tons), Chasmosaurus was a ceratopsian of average size. Like all ceratopsians, it was purely herbivorous. It was initially to be called Protorosaurus, but this name had been previously published for another animal.

All specimens of Chasmosaurus were collected from the Dinosaur Park Formation of the Dinosaur Provincial Park of Alberta, Canada. C. russelli comes from the lower beds of the formation while C. belli comes from middle and upper beds. “…Wikipedia


Let me explain what I believe that you’re looking at. It is a ceratopsian dinosaur similar to the Chasmosaurus. It is 500 years old. The right horn has broken off and is probably what is seen on the animal’s right side from the reader’s perspective.

The heavy ceratopsian tail curls up at the back and the animal fits in terms of body shape and tail for a ceratopsian. The animal has a crest and you should be able to see that the complete head, ending behind the horns includes a solid neck frill ending in a ‘V” shape similar to that of the chasmosaurus. In the photo on the left I have thoughtfully replaced the animals missing horn. The artist took pains to make sure that the ceratopsian toes were outlined for the viewer as well.

I believe what we have here is a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur that differs slightly from what one expects given modern depictions. The beak is slightly less pronounced-but evident. The horns are actually in the exact place on its head as the horns on modern Chasmosaurus depictions. The creature has growths (possibly pre-horn?) growths on the front of its face that are not seen on ceratopsian depictions.

This is clearly a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur by an actual eyewitness some 500 years ago in pre Columbian South America. It should be noted that all the ceratopsia were supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

2)Peabody Museum ”6,000 to 7,000 Year Old” Ceramic Bottle with Bi-Pedal Dinosaur (Iguanodon?) from South America

“Peabody Number: 90-27-30/54866
Display Title: Black ware stirrup spouted vase
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic bottle, stirrup spout, chipped rim, animal effigy, molded body, lying on its side.
Classification:
Stirrup spout
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru
Materials: Ceramic


The earliest ceramics known from the Americas have been found in the lower Amazon Basin. Ceramics from the Caverna de Pedra Pintada, near Santarém, Brazil, have been dated to 7,500 to 5,000 years ago. Ceramics from Taperinha, also near Santarém, have been dated to 7,000 to 6,000 years ago.” Peabody Museum

This appears to me quite clearly to represent some type of bi-pedal theropod dinosaur. Here we show the artifact on its side so that the identification of this dinosaur is more easily made.
The trio below is shown with two versions of the dinosaur iguanodon, a bi-pedal dinosaur which has been found in North America.

Distinctive features of iguanodon include large thumb spikes, which were possibly used for defence against predators, combined with long prehensile fifth fingers able to forage for food…Wikipedia.

Unfortunately that part of the sculpture has been worn away-like noses in Egyptian artifacts. Part of the tail has apparently broken off as well. I believe that this piece represents a bi pedal theropod dinosaur like iguanodon or a relative.

           

3)Postosuchus Sculpted by Pre Columbians From the Period AD 500-1350 at The Walters Art Museum?
The creature displayed at the top of the pre Columbian incense burner could be called a dragon, a crocodilian (the museum I.D.) or a mythical creature–but no one who believes that dinosaurs and their alleged ancestors died out more than 65 million years ago would ever think of this as a recently extinct, living creature.

Taking that point of view it is easy to ignore the reptilian/dinosaur like armor, the teeth which no lizard ever sported and the distinct horns. In looking at the creature carefully with the assumption that a living creature was being depicted a tentative crypto-zoo-archaeological identification is that of an archosaur like postosuchus.


Postosuchus, meaning “crocodile from Post”, is an extinct genus of rauisuchian reptiles…Postosuchus is a member of the clade Pseudosuchia, the lineage of archosaurs that includes modern crocodilians (the other main group of archosaurs is Avemetatarsalia, the lineage that includes non-avian dinosaurs and their descendants, birds). Its name refers to Post Quarry, a place in Texas where many fossils of the type species, P. kirkpatricki, were found…

Although the heavy build of the skeleton suggests that Postosuchus walked on all four limbs, the extreme shortness of the forelimbs relative to the hind limbs is a strong indication that Postosuchus was able to walk on two legs…Postosuchus possessed heterodonty dentition, which means each tooth was different in size and shape from the others.

A feature of the skull of postosuchus is a “crest” over each eye. Modern artists have had to decide how to draw or illustrate that skull feature and most have not significantly featured them. This piece from the Walters Art Museum has “eye crests” like those of postosuchus which are more clearly featured as crests above each eye.

In other pieces we’ve noted the three toes of a depiction which were similar to dinosaur toes. Postosuchus actually had a different manus and pes than did the dinosaurs. In the minds of scientists postosuchus and its relatives actually preceded the dinosaurs. Of course, most creationists believe that they lived at the same time.


The Museum Description: This incense burner is topped with the portrayal of a caiman or other member of the Crocodylidae family, one of the frequent animal spirit forms of Central American shamans. Its particularly aggressive stance may refer to the practitioner’s battle against supernatural forces.

Many such incense burners were found ritually broken on the slopes of a principal volcano on the island of Ometepe in Lake Nicaragua, the incense burner lid with its smoke issuing from the top mimicking an active volcano.


Among peoples from southern Nicaragua to Mesoamerica the earth was likened to the back of a crocodile floating in the primordial sea, its dorsal scutes being the volcanic north-south backbone that defines the continents of the Western Hemisphere. This incense burner, then, constitutes a profound ritual vessel pertaining to the transition from the natural to the supernatural realms and a symbolic model of the ancient Costa Rican world.


Uh, huh. That’s pretty complicated. Maybe it’s just a depiction of some exceptional local fauna of the time; an or perhaps a small dinosaur of unknown type. Certainly if this same depiction appeared on a site featuring artists renditions of dinosaurs this piece would not be out of place.

The photos above show comparisons of the ancient art work with modern depictions of postosuchus (without the strong “crests” and body armor and in comparison to the skull and the full skeleton of postosuchus. The comparisons appear to me to show a similarity of this depiction with that of one of the archosaurs–such as postosuchus. The feet are not those of a dinosaurs (many are three toed) but the feet of the animal depicted do correspond to that of our identification.

           

4)Nayarit Chinesco “Embryonic Dog” May Be Baby Sauropod


Nayarit is a state in western Mexico. The Nayarit culture from which this artifact comes is from the period 300 B.C. to 400 A.D.—or even older. This piece is said to represent an embryonic dog. Another identification would seem to be in order for this piece.

           
For one thing, dogs do not have necks this long. Here I’ve shown it in comparison to an animal that really did have such a long neck; the sauropod dinosaur.

Nayarit Chinesco Pottery Painted Embryonic Dog
Online Collections Auction
Auction date November 2012
Pre-Columbian, West Mexico, Ca. 300 BC to 200 AD.
Buff pottery, unique representation, elastic form.
Surface has traces of original polychrome color.
Provenance: Ex-Dr. R. Boyd Stifler, Vanderwagen NM.
Rare specimen Authenticity Guaranteed
Condition:Some wear to surface and with nice dendrite
deposits.”..Online Collections

Recently a sauropod embryo was found and the sauropod embryo depicted comes from the “Tiniest Giants: Discovering Dinosaur Eggs”.

Sauropods are supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

5)Ancient Pueblo Culture (1200 B.C.-1500 A.D.) Native Americans of What is Now Arizona Craft Dinosaur Named Aetosaur; Most of Whose Fossils Have Been Found in Arizona

           
Aetosaur Skeleton Top and Ancient Pueblo Artifact below.


“The Pueblo people are Native American people in the Southwestern United States comprising several different language groups and two major cultural divisions, one organized by matrilineal kinship systems and the other having a patrilineal system.

These determine the clan membership of children, and lines of inheritance and descent. Their traditional economy is based on agriculture and trade. At the time of Spanish encounter in the 16th century, they were living in villages that the Spanish called pueblos, meaning “towns””…Wikipedia

This piece comes from a 1936 expedition to the Hopi reservation and was determined to be from one of the Pueblo Native American cultures. It is described by the Peabody Museum as “zoomorphic”. Looking at a list of dinosaur fossils found in Arizona one can quickly see that there is a similarity between the archaeological piece and –the aetosaur. (Angle of aetosaur skeleton head adjusted for comparison purposes.)

“Aetosaurs order name Aetosauria from Greek, ????? (aetos, “eagle”) and ?????? (sauros, “lizard”)) are an extinct order of heavily armoured, medium- to large-sized Late Triassic herbivorous archosaurs. They have small heads, upturned snouts, erect limbs, and a body covered by plate-like scutes. All aetosaurs belong to the family Stagonolepididae.

Most fossils have been found from Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas…Wikipedia

.

Here is a sobering fact for those of us who can accept the fact that the ancient Pueblo people of Arizona actually saw and depicted an aetosaur which supposedly lived from 200 million years ago becoming extinct 65 million years or more ago;


“Since their armoured plates are often preserved and are abundant in certain localities, aetosaurs serve as important Late Triassic tetrapod index fossils. Many aetosaurs had wide geographic ranges, but their stratigraphic ranges were relatively short. Therefore, the presence of particular aetosaurs can accurately date a site that they are found in.”

You see the problem? Aetosaurs were roaming around the North American continent during the span of the Pueblo peoples; 1200 B.C. to 1500 A.D. and one of their artists memorialized the aetosaur in ceramic.

Peabody Number: 36-131-10/8060
Display Title: Zooomorphic black on white potsherd–animal form
Inventory Description: Ceramic, zoomorphic figurine, with tail, opened mouth, two feet, black painted design on back and sides
Classification: Figurine
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Pueblo
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arizona/Navajo County/Hopi Reservation/Antelope Mesa/Awatovi
Intrasite: Test 14
Geo-Locale: Antelope Mesa
Materials: Ceramic Pigment
Provenance: Dr. John Otis Brew (1936)
Provenance: Peabody Museum Expedition (1936)

           
6) Crested Hadrosaur Depiction by the Ancient Peoples of Costa Rica at the Peabody Museum. (Modern Artists May Need to Put Some Weight on the Bones of these Depictions)

Crested Dinosaurs are fairly easy to recognize. Most of the crested dinosaurs are from the Lambeosaurinae of the hadrosaur group. The hadrosaurs were also known as the duck billed dinosaurs.


This depiction forms the legs of an ancient pottery piece. The pot is from Costa Rica, Central America. The crests on the various types of lambosaurines differed in size and shape even among the same species and they likely differed due to age and due to sexual dimorphism.

The hadrosaurs depicted have relatively small, round crests. Here we compare them to a number of known lambeosaurines including corythsaurus.


It is interesting that the depictions are clearly of the same animal but that the portraits differ. The ancient depictions are similar to modern ones except for the apparent weight of the creatures and the size of the eyes depicted.

“Archaeologists now know that civilization existed in Costa Rica for thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus, and evidence of human occupation in the region dates back 10,000 years. Among the cultural mysteries left behind by the area’s pre-Columbian inhabitants are thousands of perfectly spherical granite bolas that have been found near the west coast.


The sizes of these inimitable relics range from that of a baseball to that of a Volkswagen bus. Ruins of a large, ancient city complete with aqueducts were recently found east of San Jose, and some marvelously sophisticated gold and jade work was being wrought in the southwest as far back as 1,000 years ago. Some archeological sites in the central highlands and Nicoya peninsula have shown evidence of influence from the Mexican Olmec and Nahuatl civilizations.

By the time Columbus arrived, there were four major indigenous tribes living in Costa Rica. The east coast was the realm of the Caribs, while the Borucas, Chibchas, and Diquis resided in the southwest. “..geographia.com

Peabody Number: 26-44-20/C9956
Display Title: Small pottery vessel
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic complete tripod jar, zoomorphic rattle feet (1 missing)
Classification: Jar
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
Central America/Costa Rica

           

7)A New Look at Dicynodont Therapsids Like Moschop from the Ancient Peoples Living I Peru, South America


The identity of this animal portrait was unknown apparently and thus it was given the general description “animal effigy” by the Harvard Peabody Museum. Was this animal purely a mythological one seen only in the imaginary eye of the artist—or was it seen with the artist’s actual eyes?

As you will see the depiction of the living therapsid is actually close enough to modern depictions of these types of creatures as to be readily identified. In appearance it is close to that of therapsids such as moschops which we know from fossils found in South Africa.

‘Moschops (Greek for “calf face”) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Guadalupian epoch, around 268-260 million years ago. Therapsids are synapsids which were at one time the dominant land animals. It was around 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in) long..

….Moschops was heavily built, and had short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. Moschops mostly ate plants, but sometimes ate meat. The forelegs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind legs were under the body, like those of a mammal.” Wikipedia

Peabody Number: 46-77-30/5868
Display Title: Pottery animal figurine
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy
Classification: Whistle
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru/La Libertad Region///Sausal
Materials: Ceramic


Here we show the ancient, ceramic artifact in comparison to moschop and to another dicynodont therapsid. Moschops and therapsids similar to him supposedly went extinct before the dinosaurs even evolved. Clearly of this ancient Peruvian artifact represents one of these creatures something is extremely wrong with the evolutionary time scale.
           

8) Quapaw’s “Underwater Panther” from the 1500”s Could In Fact Be an Eyewitness Depiction of Dinosaur Such As Tenontosaurus


According to Wikipedia the Mississippian culture was a mound building group of indigenous people who lived in the Midwestern, Eastern, and Southeastern United States from approximately 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. The collectors at Artsmia.org believe it to be a depiction of a mythological creature called an underwater panther. That makes these people seem “mystical” all right.

But what if it is an accurate depiction of an animal living at the time that we would call a dinosaur-rendered somewhat invisible as a depiction because modern versions of the creature differ greatly? Here is the museum description:

“The prominent colored swirls and eye motifs mark this animal as an Underwater Panther, one of the primary beings in the ancient Mississippian belief system and that of their descendants. The swirling pattern on its sides signifies water, while the eye markings allude to the animal’s unusually keen vision.

Red and white were symbolically significant colors that represented fundamental oppositions such as peace and war, light and dark and the on-going struggle between the celestial and subterranean realms. Underwater Panthers belonged to the subterranean and possessed great supernatural power. Their significance led Mississippian and subsequent artists to depict them frequently in many forms and media, including three-dimensional sculptures like this vessel. “

The toes of this creature appear to be triple toed-similar to a dinosaur. Its tail is very thick in the way dinosaur tails are often illustrated by modern paleo artists. I took a look to see what types of dinosaur fossils were prominent with respect to quadruped dinosaurs in those parts of the United States.


Here we show the “underwater panther” in comparison to tenontosaurus a genus of medium to large ornnithopod dinosaurs. It should be noted that there were a number of ornnithopod dinosaurs found to have lived in those parts of north America which would have had similar body shapes.

The genus tenontosaurus is known from the late Aptian to Albian ages of the middle Cretaceous period sediments of western North America, dating between 115 to 108 million years ago. It was formerly thought to be a ‘hypsilophodont’, but since Hypsilophodontia is no longer considered a clade, it is now considered to be a very primitive iguanodont.

The teeth of this portrait do give me pause. The point is however not that we know the specific type of dinosaur that was sculpted, but rather that it is more likely that it is a dinosaur being depicted here rather than an underwater panther (which itself sounds like a cryptid).

Vessel
Artist Unknown (Quapaw)
(United States, North America), c. 1500
Ceramic, pigment
9 1/8 x 10 3/8 x 5 1/4 in. (23.18 x 26.35 x 13.34 cm)
The William Hood Dunwoody Fund 2004.33

           

9)Metropolitan Museum of Asian Art’s Sauropod Dinosaur from Iran 250 B.C. to 225 A.D.


This artifact is from the Metropolitan Museum of Asian art and is labeled “zoomorphic”. I’m somewhat surprised that they didn’t call it a camel. Clearly however it is a sculpted ceramic in the form of a sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago according to science. This piece was estimated to have been made between 250 B.C. and 225 A.ZD. That period obviously covers the time of Christ.

Zoomorphic vessel
250 B.C.E.- 225 C.E.
Parthian period
Ceramic
H: 15.2 W: 28.4 D: 12.1 cm
Northern Iran, Northern Iran S1987.944

           

10) Ulisse Aldrovandi’s Detailed Drawing of A Long Tailed Pterosaur; Before They Were “Discovered” By Science

Ulisse Aldrovandi (also Aldrovandus) was born in 1522 and died in 1605. He is sometimes referred to as the father of natural history studies. By profession he was a professor of philosophy but eventually became one of the first professors of the natural sciences at Bologna (no offense intended).


Ulisse died 250 years before the first pterosaur was discovered by a scientist and he mistakenly thought it was a sea going creature. It was not until the beginning of the 19th century that science realized that pterosaurs were flying creatures.

“The first pterosaur fossil was described by the Italian naturalist Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini misinterpreted his specimen as a seagoing creature that used its long front limbs as paddles.

A few scientists continued to support the aquatic interpretation even until 1830, when the German zoologist Johann Georg Wagler suggested that Pterodactylus used its wings as flippers. Georges Cuvier first suggested that pterosaurs were flying creatures in 1801, and coined the name “Ptero-dactyle” in 1809 for the specimen recovered in Germany.” …Wikipedia

After his death his book Serpentum, et draconum historiæ Serpentum, et Draconum was published. In it, was a drawing supposedly from life (well it was dead!) of a dragon which comports very well with a long tailed, crested pterosaur especially given that Aldrovandi was a philosopher and naturalist –and not an artist.

The interesting thing about Aldrovandi’s pterosaur is that it has the crest of the pteranodon and the tail of one of the long tailed rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Although we don’t know this exact pterosaur from science it closely matches modern day eyewitness descriptions and drawings of a long tailed pterosaur. (There are long tail crested pterosaurs known to science but none with the classic bone sticking out the back of its head kind).

Note what might look like another set of small wings at the legs of Aldrovandi’s dragon. It is shown here in the more modern drawing between the pteranodon’s legs. That is called the uropatagium; and since it does not appear on birds it is one indication that Aldrovandi actually saw what he drew.

“some pterosaur groups had a membrane that stretched between the legs, possibly connecting to or incorporating the tail, called the uropatagium; the extent of this membrane isn’t certain, as studies on Sordes seem to suggest that it simply connected the legs but did not involve the tail (rendering it a cruropatagium). It is generally agreed though that non-pterodactyloid pterosaurs had a broader uro/cruropatagium, with pterodactyloids only having membranes running along the legs; Pteranodon in particular might have developed/redeveloped an uropatagium, given the structure of the tail”..Wikipedia

The picture on the right (above) shows Aldrovandi’s dragon compared to Eskin Kuhn’s drawing (bottom, right) from his eyewitness sighting in the 1970’s. Kuhn was an artist and a soldier stationed at Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. His “pteranodon” had both the backwards facing “crest” and the long tail with tail vain of the rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Top right is a modern drawing of a pteranodon without the long tail. Aldrovandi has the tail, crest and bat like wings of a pterosaur.
           

11) Peabody Museum Seeks to Make an Ancient Veraguas Culture Dinosaur Evolve Into a Bird Right Before Our Eyes

The “Bird” effigy ceramic whistle (middle) is from the ancient Veraguas Culture of Panama. That culture inhabited Panama from approximately 700 A.D. to 1530 A.D.

“This culture inhabited the central region of what is now province of Veraguás in Panama. The area extends from the Pacific to the Caribbean coast and includes a number of islands. The climate here is mainly humid and tropical, and the landscape includes wooded areas and valleys suitable for agriculture, as well as high mountains, hilly areas, and coastal lowlands.” Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino


The ceramic sculpture with three legs does not have the correct number for either the bird (two) or the crested hadrosaur (four). My take is that given the teeth (which birds do not have) and the thick tail this is not a depiction of a bird but rather of a crested hadrosaur such as corythosaurus.

The single combined front legs represent the two front legs of the creature and this is not uncommon with pre Columbian art. One can certainly decide for his or her self.

Peabody Number: 39-90-20/6461
Display Title: Pottery bird effigy whistle. Light brown, probably faded from red.
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy with tripod legs
Classification: Ceramic
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Veraguas
Geography/Provenience: Central America/Panama/Veraguas

           

12)Plesiosaur or Dinosaur? Mythological or Cryptozoological?


Here are a number of ancient artifacts that do beg the question; sea monster or dinosaur. It may not be clear what animal the artist has in mind but I believe that they so clearly mirror what modern day artists see as dinosaurs and marine reptiles that they simply cannot be imaginary creatures.

The ancient artist in each case intended to represent an actual living creature and they must have expected the beholder to recognize what the creature was as well. In each of these examples only a portion of the animal is sculpted making the crypto detective work more difficult.

In situations like these the museum or the auction house usually leaves this kind of speculation to the viewer but often uses the term “zoomorphic” as the description. Often as well they will name a creature for which if it were truly what the ancient artist intended he/she would have proven to be a terrible artist. That should drive down prices!

Christie’s auction house described this artifact as a horse which may seem reasonable at first but no horse would have that long a neck. Alternative identifications include the plesiosaur or a dinosaur. Plesiosaurs of course supposedly went extinct around 65 million years ago as did it is claimed, the dinosaur.

The artifact is thought to have come from the period of up to 1,000 Years before Christ.

Christie’s
• Overview
• Features
Lot Description
ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TERRACOTTA ZOOMORPHIC RHYTON
CIRCA LATE 1ST MILLENNIUM B.C.

One in the form of a seated camel, black glazed, carrying two jars on either side of its back; another in the form of a horse, a strap handle joining the rim to the back of the vessel, a perforation at the top of the head forming the spout, 16 cm. high max.; an Amlash terracotta steatopygous idol, possibly 2nd Millenium B.C., 20.5 cm. high, mounted (repaired); and a bull rhyton, not ancient, 15 cm. high (4)

This item is described as a “serpent” effigy bowl; perhaps a “sea serpent”?


This pottery piece has been categorized as Neeley’s Ferry which are artifacts of one of the ancient group of State of Arkansas cultures. Ancient peoples are thought to have lived in Arkansas between 600 B.C. and 1600 A.D.

The Peabody specifically dated the artifact between 1350 and 1550.

This piece is further described as an earthen bowl, animal. The animal has a head with teeth giving the appearance of either a sea creature with long winding tail or perhaps a dinosaur.


Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21621
Display Title: Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl head and tail start on body & on short axis
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic, complete vessel, bowl, mended, serpent head and tail
Object Description: Earthen bowl, animal. Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl, head and tail start on body, tail turned on itself, head and tail on short axis.
Classification: Bowl
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Halcomb’s Mounds; Arkansas State Intrasite: Grave, 18 inches deep; 2 feet from river

Above shows our “sea monster” at another angle which provides additional detail concerning the shape of the head and tail. By the way, seals have fins and flippers not “tails”.

This final piece is also from the Neeley’s Ferry mounds and is described as a “ceramic effigy vessel of zoomorphic design”.


This artifact was found in a gravesite buried three feet below ground level and has been dated from the period between 1350-1550.

As you can see it is very reminiscent of modern paleoartist’s depiction of theropod or meat eating dinosaurs. Of course, we only have the head but is it possible that the artist saw and knew about a then living version of such a creature?

Or is it more believable that this is an effigy of a mythological animal which accidently reminds us of modern ideas about how dinosaurs looked?

Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21195
Display Title: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomorphic design
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomophic design
Classification: Effigy
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience:North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Neeley’s Ferry Mounds; Arkansas State # 3CS24
Intrasite: Grave, 3 feet deep Geo-Locale: Saint Francis River, West side of
Materials: Ceramic
Collector: Edwin Curtiss (01/01/1880)

           

Bonus: Nicoya, Pre Columbian Incense Burner Maker Tops Reptilian Artifact with Feet of a Theropod Dinosaur Which is Quite A Feat for Someone Who Missed Dinosaurs by 65M Years



Top left is a pre Columbian Censer (Incensario), from the 10th–12th century. There are many examples of this type of pre Columbian censer topped by a dragon/dinosaur. The excellent example at the top left is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you take the time you can see the full body of a quadruped, dinosaur like creature with an extremely ornate crest or horns. This is typical of these artifacts.

No matter how un crocodile like the animal perched at the top is this type of vessel is known as either alligator or crocodile ware and elaborate stories have been concocted by archaeologists about the sacred nature of crocodiles and alligators in the pre Columbian cultures. Here’s a quote describing the object, top left by the Met.

The flare-footed, spherical bowl of this ceramic censer is enhanced, in silhouette, by the flamboyance of its chimney. Textured, appliqué bands encircle and emphasize the tall smoothness of the chimney. On the perforated cap rests an elaborate crested crocodilian. Smoke from the incense that was burned in the bowl escaped through the holes of the cap and from openings in the animal’s body. The rhythmical texture of the appliqué visually unites it with the surface of the creature’s body where the nubby portions are taken to represent the scutes of the reptile.

Both textured appliqués and scutes are surfaced in white. The spiky crest that surrounds the head is customarily found in incensarios of this period. Crocodilians frequently appear in Costa Rican art, strongly suggesting the supernatural import of these creatures in ancient times…The Met

On the Top right is a photo of one of those pre Columbian artifacts, Nicoya, an incense burner.
what is interesting about the artifact on the top, right is that a close up of the animals feet (bottom left) reveal and striking similarity of its feet as sculpted to that of the theropod dinsoaurs (bottom, right) and unlike those of lizards-or crocodiles.

           

Conclusion: There are hundreds if not thousands of artifacts in museums around the world containing representations of extinct creatures that we now called dinosaurs. The most obvious examples are labeled as fakes and are in provide collections.

Those that are not obvious dinosaurs are labeled dragons, unknown, zoomorphic, mythological, animal etc. Of course many artifacts are just those things. The issue is that when a group (archaeologists) are absolutely convinced that these animals lived millions of years ago all evidence will be viewed to reflect that belief and those that don’t will be reinterpreted, labeled or hidden away.

In any case if you should find that even one of the items in our collection is a dinosaur-or that a dinosaur is the most likely explanation that one should be enough to make you question the current scientific history control. But we understand that bucking the system is difficult to do.

Since I began with a quote from the Princess Bride it might be appropriate to finish with a modified version of another such quote:

Big Science: We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. (not actually a believer)
Believer: You mean, you’ll put down your rock and I’ll put down my sword, and we’ll try to convince each other like civilized people-with facts and evidence?
Big Science; [brandishing rock (public opinion, science mythology, ridicule] I could just wipe you out now.
Believer: Frankly, I think the odds are slightly in your favor at hand fighting.
Big Science: It’s not my fault being the biggest and the strongest. I don’t even exercise.

Elephant Pipes, Incised Bones and the Davenport Tablets; How the Smithsonian Institution (and other “Authorities”) Create the “Scientific Paradigms” You May Be Condescendingly Parroting Tomorrow

Church of Darwin, Crypto, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jun 30 2013


by Chris Parker

Without noting the deep irony of their announcement and without confessing their own obstinacy in having previously debunked all former evidence supporting the proposition, last year the Smithsonian Institution along with the University of Florida announced the discovery (and acceptance as genuine) of an object depicting a mammoth here in North America which they announced to be 13,000 years old.

Here is that announcement in brief:

“Researchers from the Smithsonian Institution and the University of Florida have announced the discovery of a bone fragment, approximately 13,000 years old, in Florida with an incised image of a mammoth or mastodon. This engraving is the oldest and only known example of Ice Age art to depict a proboscidean (the order of animals with trunks) in the Americas. The team’s research is published online in the Journal of Archaeological Science.

The bone was discovered in Vero Beach, Fla., by James Kennedy, an avocational fossil hunter, who collected the bone and later, while cleaning it, discovered the engraving. Recognizing its potential importance, Kennedy contacted scientists at the University of Florida and the Smithsonian’s Museum Conservation Institute and National Museum of Natural History.

“This is an incredibly exciting discovery,” said Dennis Stanford, anthropologist at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of Natural History and co-author of this research. “There are hundreds of depictions of proboscideans on cave walls and carved into bones in Europe, but none from America—until now.”…Newsroom of the Smithsonian Scientists Reveal a First in Ice Age Art June 22, 2011

It may have been an exciting discovery but the “fact” that there were no mammoths in North America living alongside man was a paradigm and a reality which had been set in stone by the Smithsonian itself more than 125 years ago. After the paradigm had been set, no evidence to the contrary could be accepted as genuine and like all such science created realities one literally could find one’s career at stake were one to question such a scientific decree.

The Smithsonian Museum, created in 1846 was a series of Museums and research centers created by rich benefactors for the “increase and diffusion of knowledge”. The Museum is run by the U.S. Government. In its collections it has thought to hold as many as 137 million artifacts. (Some have suggested that the more controversial of those artifacts sent to that institution will never see the light of day again.)

The power of the institution to not only increase knowledge but also to establish “reality” is perhaps unparalleled in the world of science. The Davenport Museum was organized or created on December 14th, 1867 for more or less the same purposes but was a private, membership society originally consisting of non professionals but which later would find professional archaeologists working alongside or involved in their discoveries.

The quote in the paragraph following from Wiki Source helps to set the stage for what took place at that time; a struggle between the Smithsonian and the Davenport Museum that played out over whether or not there were ice age humans living in North America who interacted with ice age animals like mammoths. Were the Mound builders remnants of an ancient, advanced culture or were they “merely” American Indians with ordinary technology and customs just like the American Indian of “today”?

Somehow, the existence of mammoth art or elephant depictions in North America played into the controversy which at the time divided scientists rather evenly. This later became the Clovis/pre Clovis controversy which actually damaged or scientists on the wrong side of the issue up to this decade.

“ If you are not familiar with the Davenport Academy of Natural Sciences, it rivaled, and even excelled, the Smithsonian collection at the turn of the 20th century. It was one of the many amateur Academies set up to study our world and its history.

…..In the forefront were questions of the origins of the Mound Builders and whether primitive man inhabited America before, or during, the last Ice Age. Remember that this was before the discoveries of chipped stone artifacts, undeniably made by humans, in direct context with Ice Age mammals during the first quarter of the twentieth century….” Wikisource.org

Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets

“There are in the possession of the Academy of Natural Sciences of Davenport, Iowa, two carved stone pipes, of which representations are given. * * * They seem to be unmistakable representations of an elephant, or some closely allied quadruped, and their makers must have been acquainted with the animal. The Davenport Academy also have a tablet, found in a mound near their city, containing some thirty rude pictures of animals. Most of them can be recognized, and among them there are two that seem intended for elephants”… “Inglorious Columbus” Mr. Edward P. Vining

In 1885, CHARLES E. PUTNAM , a former Academy president and prominent Davenport attorney, wrote a booklet on behalf of the Davenport Museum for the purpose of defending the museum and some of its discoveries from a broadside which had been directed directly at the museum and its elephant pipes and inscribed tablets; “ELEPHANT PIPES AND INSCRIBED TABLETS IN THE MUSEUM OF THE ACADEMY OF NATURAL SCIENCES DAVENPORT, IOWA.”

The attack had been made at the behest of the new head of the Smithsonian, Major Powell. The man who wrote the article which basically attacked the notion that the artifacts were genuine was not himself an archeologist- he was an ornithologist. Henry W. Henshaw’s article entitled “Animal Carvings from Mounds in the Mississippi Valley, was printed in the Bureau of Ethnology’s Second Annual Report.

Following are excerpts from Putnam’s article laying out the Smithsonian’s attack while giving a spirited defense. Other evidences of elephants in North America have been found in ancient art and potentially other discoveries that we not brought forward
but it should be noted that the academic world which may have been split up until that time officially maintained a no elephant artifacts have even been found in North America stance until just last year—when the Smithsonian found-it is claimed—the first one.

Charles Putnam of Behalf of the Davenport Museum

In the sharp controversy now being waged among archaeologists, as to the origin of the Mound-builders, the Bureau of Ethnology connected with the Smithsonian Institution has taken decided position as the champion of the theory that this mysterious race can be traced with comparative certainty to the ancestors of our American Indians. In the first annual report of the Bureau, Major Powell, its accomplished Director, thus emphatically states its position upon this question:

“With regard to the mounds so widely scattered between the two oceans, it may also be said that mound-building tribes were known in the early history of the discovery of this continent, and that vestiges of art discovered do not excel in any respect the arts of Indian tribes known to history.

There is, therefore, no reason for us to search for an extralimital origin, through lost tribes, for the arts discovered in the mounds of North America. The tracing of the origin of these arts to the ancestors of known tribes, or stocks of tribes, is more legitimate.” *

At a subsequent date, Major Powell, in giving his assent to the theory “that the Mound-builders were no other than the Indian tribes found in the country in post-Columbian times, and their ancestors,” makes use of this strong language:

“There has never been presented one item of evidence that the Mound-builders were a people of culture superior to that of the tribes that inhabited the valley of the Mississippi a hundred years ago. The evidence is complete that these tribes have built mounds within the historic period; and no mounds or earth-works have been discovered superior in structure or contents to those known to have been built in historic times. The theory that the country was inhabited by a people highly organized as nations, and having arts of a higher grade than those belonging to tribal society, is wild and baseless, and the fruit of that theory is nothing but exaggeration and false statement.” +

“Another class of archaeologists as strongly maintain the opposite theory, that the Mound-builders were more advanced in civilization than the American Indian, and hence have endeavored to trace them to a Mexican origin, or to some earlier common ancestry. The leadership on this side must be accorded to Messrs. Squier and Davis, who, in their great work upon “Ancient Monuments of the Mississippi Valley,” thus state their conclusions:

“Without undertaking to point out the affinities, or to indicate the probable origin of the builders of the western monuments, and the cause of their final disappearance, we may venture to suggest that the facts so far collected point to a connection, more or less intimate, between the race of the mounds and the semi civilized nations which formerly had their seats among the sierras of Mexico and Peru, and who erected the imposing structures which, from their number, vastness, and mysterious significance, invest the central portion of the continent with an interest no less absorbing than that which attaches to the Nile.

These nations alone, of all found in possession of the continent by the European discoverers, were essentially stationary and agricultural in their habits — conditions indispensable to large populations, to fixedness of institutions, and to any considerable advance in the ennobling arts”

Still, it must be conceded, if the statements of the great work of Squier and Davis are unreliable, and its deductions without sufficient basis, these defects cannot be too early disclosed to the world of science. Such an exposure would be a benefaction to the cause of truth.

The attempt to reverse the thought of an age is, however, a most notable undertaking. It needs great courage, excellent scholarship, and a commanding name. It will, of course, be taken for granted that the man called to so important a work must have been long engaged in archaeological research, trained in its methods of investigation, and familiar with its literature.

We recall the names of noted archaeologists, and wonder who among them would have the temerity to engage in this gigantic undertaking. In response to our summons none such appear; but, instead, the Director of the Bureau steps promptly to the front and makes due announcement of H.W. Henshaw” as the champion of his theory; and this is the method of his introduction:

“Mr. H. W. Henshaw, skilled as a naturalist, especially as an ornithologist, and familiar by personal experience with a large part of our national territory, was led to examine into the truth of these statements, repeated from author to author without question or criticism, and used as data in all discussions on the mounds. The result is the important paper now published. His conclusions, from the evidence adduced, seem to be incontrovertible.”*

And so the valiant gentleman appointed to displace Squier and Davis is a new-comer in archaeology, but, nevertheless, is “skilled as a naturalist, especially as an ornithologist;” and, moreover, is “familiar with a large part of our national territory!” With this unique statement before us of Mr. Henshaw’s qualifications for his great work, comment would be superfluous. The recommendation is itself a condemnation. The scientific world will scarcely consent to so summary a displacement of its old worthies, at the behest of a newly-fledged archaeologist, even though he may be “skilled as a naturalist!”

From H.W. Henshaw’s “Animal Carvings from Mounds in the Mississippi Valley”:

“In considering the evidence afforded by these pipes of a knowledge of the mastodon on the part of the Mound-builder, it should be borne in mind that their authenticity as specimens of the Mound-builder’s art has been seriously called in question. Possibly the fact that the same person was instrumental in bringing to light both of the pipes has had largely to do with this suspicion, especially when it was remembered that, although explorers had been remarkably active in the same region, it has fallen to the good fortune of no one else to find anything conveying the most distant suggestion of the mastodon. * * *

The remarkable archaeological instinct which has guided the finder of these pipes has led him to some more important discoveries. By the aid of his divining-rod he has succeeded in unearthing some of the most remarkable tablets which have thus far rewarded the diligent search of the mound explorer. ******

“Archeologists must certainly deem it unfortunate that, outside of the Wisconsin mound, the only evidence of the coexistence of the Mound-builder and the mastodon should reach the scientific world through the agency of one individual. So derived, each succeeding carving of the mastodon, be it more or less accurate, instead of being accepted by archaeologists as cumulative evidence tending to establish the genuineness of the sculptured testimony showing that the Mound-builder and mastodon were coeval, will be viewed with ever-increasing suspicion. * * * *

Bearing in mind the many attempts at archaeological fraud that recent years have brought to light, archaeologists have a right to demand that objects which afford a basis for such important deductions as the coeval life of the Mound builder and mastodon should be above the slightest suspicion, not only in respect to their resemblances, but as regards »he circumstances of their discovery. If they are not above suspicion, the science of archaeology can better afford to wait for further and more certain evidence than to commit itself to theories which may prove stumbling-blocks to truth, until that indefinite time when further investigation shall show their illusory nature.” *

Mr. Putnam’s Reply:

”We find here an abundance of hints, innuendoes, imaginings, suspicions, without the statement of a fact to justify them. Had it been more specific, this paper would have had more force. In a grave scientific essay, controverting the authenticity of some very important discoveries, it should have been stated when, where, how, by whom, and for what reasons the genuineness of these relics had been “seriously called in question.” To controvert a statement with a sneer is the peculiar achievement of the ordinary polemic, and cannot be set down among accepted scientific methods.”

In entering upon his work of demolition, it was open to Mr. Henshaw to make some show of thorough investigation and fair treatment. The circumstances called for it. He occupied a conspicuous position and wielded large influence. If his criticism was well founded, it would serve a useful purpose in driving charlatans from the fold of truth. If based only on partial investigations, and without substantial foundation, his censure would tend to destroy confidence in all historical evidence, discourage original research, and poison truth at its very fountain-head.

When, therefore, Mr. Henshaw was forced by the exigencies of his theory to assail these discoveries, archaeologists had a right to expect that he would make thorough examination into the evidence of their genuineness; that he would visit the scenes of these explorations and take careful note of the surroundings; that he would make searching inquiry as to the character and reliability of the discoverers; that he would closely question the members of the Davenport Academy as to the existence of any suspicious circumstances; that he would make critical inspection of the relics themselves to note peculiarities which might escape an eye less thoroughly trained than his own; and that, in this just and judicious manner, he would seek to satisfy all reasonable scruples of the earnest and conscientious seeker after truth.

All this was easy for Mr. Henshaw, for he had at his command unlimited resources. It will be learned with surprise that he did none of these things. This feeling will be increased to astonishment when it is ascertained that, instead of adopting these wise precautions, Mr. Henshaw seized with avidity upon a stray paper, written by a gentleman in no way connected with the Davenport Academy, imperfectly illustrated with some coarse wood-cuts, and published in an Eastern magazine, and that he made this second-hand information the poor excuse for his unscientific screed.

When, in addition to all this, it is found that Mr. Henshaw never consulted the extensive correspondence concerning these relics in the possession of the Smithsonian Institution, and apparently never gave even a passing glance to the photographs of these elephant pipes in its museum, archeologists will regard with just resentment these scientific delinquencies of this eminent gentleman.

In the argument of Mr. Henshaw, based upon the absence of the “tail” in these carvings, he is peculiarly unfortunate. He has been misled, no doubt, by the faulty “illustrations,” which alone he must have consulted, inasmuch as in each of these pipes the “tail” is well developed.

It will also be found clearly represented in the photographs sent to the Smithsonian Institution, in the illustrations of the pipes given in the Proceedings of the Davenport Academy, and in the stamp on the cover of the volume. So, too, in the “Prehistoric America” of Nadaillac, quite recently introduced to the American public by a noted archaeologist (Mr. Dall), we find an illustration of one of these identical elephant pipes, with the missing “tail” in full view!

It is a noticeable circumstance, that, while Barber, Vining, and other writers commented upon the absence of “tusks,” it remained for Mr. Henshaw to make the remarkable discovery that the “tail” was also missing in these carvings.

The conclusion is inevitable, that Mr. Henshaw drew largely upon Mr. Barber’s article for his scientific material, and that he was betrayed into the commission of this mistake by the “imperfection” of the illustrations used by Mr. Barber and copied by Mr. Henshaw without verification.

The following are correct illustrations of the two elephant pipes now in our museum. Figure i (top) represents the pipe plowed up by Peter Mare in a corn-field in Louisa County, Iowa, and Figure II (bottom) that discovered by Rev. A. Blumer in a mound in the same county :*

With these illustrations in view, archaeologists will read with amusement the singular argument of

Mr. Henshaw, based upon the supposed absence of the “tails” in these pipes:

“It is also remarkable that in neither of these pipes is the tail indicated, although a glance at the other sculptures will show that in the full-length figures this member is invariably shown. In respect to these omissions, the pipes from Iowa are strikingly suggestive of the elephant mound of Wisconsin, with the peculiarities of which the sculptor, whether ancient or modern, might almost be supposed to have been acquainted. It certainly must be looked upon as a curious coincidence that carvings found at a point so remote from the elephant mound, and presumably the work of other hands, should so closely copy the imperfections of that mound.” *

Conclusion

This little academic battle caught our attention because it shows the power of institutional science to decide what “reality” is. Whatever the merits of the arguments on either side, the Smithsonian simply took a position and whether that position was correct or incorrect it was made on the whim of the director-not because the issue had actually been decided “scientifically”.

Since the time of this controversy played out in these two articles, most academics have towed the line and the Davenport artifacts are routinely identified in encyclopedias, etc. as hoaxes if they are mentioned at all. Text books and academics state the “facts” unequivocally-that as the Director said any suggestion that Mound builder were “advanced” or that they lived along with mammoths was “wild and baseless” exaggeration and false statement”. Up until today it is as though the issue had never been controversial.

And thus several generations of archaeologists, other scientists and students have simply “known” that no evidence that man, mound builder or otherwise had interacted with mammoths in North America.

That is until last June when the Smithsonian changed the game again and there was a momentary wobble in the fabric of “scientific reality” which in many cases bares only an occasional intersect with reality.

Warning: Darwinism is a paradigm, the age of the universe is a paradigm, global warming is a paradigm ( in the 1970′s it was worldwide global cooling and a coming ice age that spelled our doom), the big bang is a paradigm where invisible dark matter and energy have been recruited to explain up to 96% of observations, the origin of life from inanimate matter is a paradigm. Columbus discovering America is a paradigm as well but the objectivity of science and of scientists is just a straight up falsehood.

Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets in the Museum of Natural Sciences, Davenport, Iowa, by George Putnam

Despite Coelacanth Does the Evolutionary Dogma Re Man and Dinosaur Remain Unshaken?
Or, Do Those Dogon Antique Dinosaurs of West Africa Prove Science is Myth-Staken

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 13 2013


Photo:Antique Dogon People’s Sculpture at the Metropolitan Museum of Art;Details and ID comparisons below.

The coelacanth is a species of fish which had been thought by evolutionists to have evolved 400 million years ago (before the dinosaurs) and to have become extinct 80 million years ago. That was until living specimens began to be found in 1938.

Question; what percentage wrong were evolutionary scientists about Coelacanth? I mean if you believed that they were a magical fish that would take you direct to Atlantis-on their backs if you said the secret word, you would be wrong- but really not that much more wrong than evolutionists had been. They believed up until 1938 that coelacanth walked on the sea bed using its two pairs of double fins, and that it represented a transitional form between land and sea creatures.

Shockingly for some, the living coelacanths discovered then and since look just like their fossils. Thus, evolutionists who discovered that they were off 80 million years in terms of extinction had to face the prospect of also being off 400 million years in terms of evolution. In 1938 it became known that there were no coelacanth experts but in a way one could understand their mistake; the coelocanth is all pre-historicky looking.



Similarly, there are no dinosaur experts either. No one really knows what they looked like. Many if not most ideas about them have already been proved wrong or have experienced “turbulence”. Species and types merge and disappear or are it almost seems randomly moved over to another tree or up and down said evolutionary tree.

Are they warm blooded or cold blooded? Covered with feathers? Last year science suggested that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by 33% to 50%. A number of species of dinosaurs completely disappeared last year when it was decided that some individuals were merely juvenile versions of another type of dinosaur.

Paleontologists are famous for naming essentially the same dinosaur found in various locales and respective continents the ME-o-saurus (“ME” being the name of each discoverer). Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago but I’m afraid that the historical data tells us otherwise. We’ll take a quick peek at a few artifacts from West Africa (some previously seen here) to see if its credible to believe that man and dinosaur never coexisted.

The Dogon Peoples

“The Bandiagara Cliffs The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of the country of Mali, in the West of the Continent of Africa, south of the Niger bend, near the city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. The population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000[1] The Dogon are best known for their religious traditions, their mask dances, wooden sculpture and their architecture…….


The principal Dogon area is bisected by the Bandiagara Escarpment, a sandstone cliff of up to 500m (1,640 ft) high, stretching about 150 km (90 miles). To the southeast of the cliff, the sandy Séno-Gondo Plains are found, and northwest of the cliff are the Bandiagara Highlands. Historically, Dogon villages were established in the Bandiagara area in consequence of the Dogon people’s collective refusal to convert to Islam a thousand years ago.

Dogon insecurity in the face of these historical pressures caused them to locate their villages in defensible positions along the walls of the escarpment. The other factor influencing their choice of settlement location is water. The Niger River is nearby and in the sandstone rock, a rivulet runs at the foot of the cliff at the lowest point of the area during the wet season.


Dogon art is primarily sculpture. Dogon art revolves around religious values, ideals, and freedoms (Laude, 19). Dogon sculptures are not made to be seen publicly, and are commonly hidden from the public eye within the houses of families, sanctuaries, or kept with the Hogon (Laude, 20). The importance of secrecy is due to the symbolic meaning behind the pieces and the process by which they are made.

Themes found throughout Dogon sculpture consist of figures with raised arms, superimposed bearded figures, horsemen, stools with caryatids, women with children, figures covering their faces, women grinding pearl millet, women bearing vessels on their heads, donkeys bearing cups, musicians, dogs, quadruped-shaped troughs or benches, figures bending from the waist, mirror-images, aproned figures, and standing figures (Laude, 46-52). Signs of other contacts and origins are evident in Dogon art. The Dogon people were not the first inhabitants of the cliffs of Bandiagara. Influence from Tellem art is evident in Dogon art because of its rectilinear designs (Laude, 24).”..Wikipedia

Dogon Zoomorphic Head


Time Period’ 1800-early 1900’s. The Dogon Peoples. Mali Dimensions:
H x W: 8 x 1in. (20.3 x 2.5cm) Wood and Iron
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Bryce Holcombe Collection of African Decorative Art, Bequest of Bryce Holcombe, 1984

The item is described as “zoomorphic. It is an animal or animal like, but the museum is not able or ready to make an identification. They may consider it to be a mythological creature. In our view it closely matches the current view of the appearance of the crested, duck billed dinosaurs-the lambeosaurines although few if any hadrosaur fossils have been found in West Africa.

Here we show the sculpture in comparison to one of the crested hadrosaurine dinosaurs, hypacrosaurus.


Hypacrosaurus was a genus of duckbill dinosaur similar in appearance to Corythosaurus. Like Corythosaurus, it had a tall, hollow rounded crest, although not as large and straight. It is known from the remains of two species that spanned 75 to 67 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of Alberta, Canada, and Montana, USA, and is the latest hollow-crested duckbill known from good remains in North America. It was an obscure genus until the description of nests, eggs, and hatchlings belonging to H. stebingeri in the 1990s.

It is not our intent to claim that this traditional Dogon sculpture represents hypacrosaurus, merely that it likely represents one of the closely related lambeosauine, crested, duckbilled dinosaurs. The specific type may have yet to be discovered. There are alternate suggestions for this piece of sculpture including a crested duck but we think that it very closely resembles a dinosaur that was thought by science to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

500 Year Old Dogon Bipedal Statue


The Dogon peoples have become somewhat of the darlings of individuals around the world who believe that ancient technological prowess which is an enigma can best be explained by the belief that in the distant past the earth was visited by advanced aliens who imparted their knowledge to humans in some fashion. There are real archaeological anomalies out there and if one doesn’t have a Genesis/biblical system of belief it easy to see why many would find the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain them insufficient and why they would construct alternate theories do deal with them.

“Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938 and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen’s future publications.

They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or ‘star of the Sigui’, has two companion stars, p tolo (the Digitaria star), and mm ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following

remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.

In 1976 Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery arguing that the Dogon’s system reveals precise knowledge of cosmological facts only known by the development of modern astronomy, since they appear to know, from Griaule and Dieterlen’s account, that Sirius was part of a binary star system, whose second star, Sirius B, a white dwarf, was however completely invisible to the human eye, (just as Digitaria is the smallest grain[clarification needed] known to the Dogon), and that it took 50 years to complete its orbit. The existence of Sirius B had only been inferred to exist through mathematical calculations undertaken by Friedrich Bessel in 1844. Temple then argued that the Dogon’s information, if traced back to ancient Egyptian sources and myth, indicated an extraterrestrial transmission of knowledge of the stars. Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen had ever made such bold claims about a putative esoteric source for the Dogon’s knowledge.”…Wikipedia


I mention the foregoing because this little 500 year old Dogon metal statue has been swept up into this alien story by calling it a Nommo, a kind of fish/amphibian god slash alien.

Its reptilian, its walking in a bipedal fashion and its strange looking. For purposes of the alien scenario it fits in nicely-if you ignore the fact that it looks quite a bit like a terrestrial animal we know well.

From the Genesis creation account perspective, however it clearly fits as a creation of the first six days; a bipedal dinosaur.

Here we compare it with a more or less random, carnivorous, three toed, bipedal dinosaur.

Which is it”, then an alien fish/amphibian god representative –or an indication that the Dogon peoples of West Africa interacted with, carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs within the last 1,000 years?

Mystery of the African (Dogon) Ornithopod Dinosaur

Around the time Sir Richard Owen had coined the term “dinosaur” to describe the giant “terrible lizards” whose bones were then being discovered in the mid-1800′s the Dogon tribe was creating art which appears to represent one of them riding one of those creatures.



Features of the “dinosaur” are accurate enough for a species identification to be made. An Ornithopod dinosaur, in our humble opinion.

The birdlike head with strong jawline, “duck bill”; and the knees appearing to bend in the “wrong” direction (opposite ours) separate this dinosaur from the sauropods.

In actuality the front legs do bend in the opposite direction, but it the high ankles of these creatures which make it appear that the rear legs also bend in the forward direction.

Examples of the Ornithopod dinosaur depicted include; iguanadon and hadrosaurus as shown below. Note also the accuracy of this African depiction compared to early “scientific” depictions.

It’s interesting to note that the gallery showing this piece claims that this is dinosaur, from the mid-1800′s and that they can authenticate its age and origin. If you’ve got a spare $1,200, pick it up and send us a photo of the other side of the piece.

Antique African bronze dinosaur



Dogon Tribe African bronze vessel in the form of dinosaur, with the lid, on the lid a seated human figurine, the body of the vessel with linear scarifications, long tail. Covered in a light earthen patina. Antique African artifact 1800′s AD. This antique African artifact comes with a certificate of authenticity and time period.
All ancient artifacts and antiques, ancient jewelry, ancient statues, etc. are guaranteed to be authentic and from the time period stated.

All artifacts come with a certificate of authenticity and time period. We specialize in antiquities located in our online Treasures of the World gallery at World Wide Store.

View our ancient artifacts list view or aisles for other extraordinary artifacts. Also see other categories, Ancient artifacts Byzantine, Celtic, Cycladic, Egyptian, European, Greek, Holy land, Luristan, Mesopotamian, Persian, Roman, Syrian, African artifacts, Maya, and Prehistoric artifacts.

Many artifacts are rare and date back as far as 3000 BC. All artifacts are guaranteed to be authentic. Artifacts are one of a kind. If the item you want has already sold we may have something similar available.
Antique African bronze dinosaur
1800′s AD
measures: 14″ x 7 1/2″ $1200.00…..Treasures of the World”

Photo:Artifact with Iguanadon middle, and hadrosaurus, bottom.


When we discovered this artifact online, it had already been purchased by our friend Vance Nelson at CreationTruthMinistries.org. He currently has it in his possession and this new photo is Copyright CreationTruthMinistries.

Looking at the piece again we were struck by how detailed it actually is; the “skin” of the “dinosaur” could also provide evidence that the artist actually saw a living version of the creature at a time scientific depictions of dinosaurs were still “primitive”.

Note the diamond shapes that cover the entire creature. Does that feature match up with any modern dinosaur discoveries we wondered; remembering that we thought the artifact represented an Ornithopod dinosaur.

Hadrosaur Skeleton Found

“The hadrosaur skeleton itself which includes parts of the hip, a femur, part of a foot, and a 10-foot section of tail that is missing its tip is already an uncommon discovery because it is the most complete dinosaur skeleton, and the first crested hadrosaur, ever discovered in southern Utah’s Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, says Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist with the monument. Geology and paleontology were part of the reason this monument was established, Titus says.

This specimen is also special because many of the skin impressions were found in direct contact with the bone, so scientists can place with confidence the different scale patterns on particular parts of the dinosaur, Titus adds.

The specimen has two distinct skin patterns, says David Gillette, the dig’s lead scientist and a curator of the Museum of Northern Arizona. A diamond-shaped pattern was found near the tail’s tip, he says, while a more irregular and polygonal pattern was uncovered closer to the hip”….Geotimes, oct 2001

Other West African Dinosaurs and Supposedly Extinct Animals

The West African area seems to have been a hotbed of ancient dinosaur activity. In addition to the Dogon of Mali, items from the nearby Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Niger, the Sudan, Chad and Cameroon, most of which are not included in this article abound.

Not Just Dinosaurs; the Ancient West African’s Clearly “Interacted” with “Extinct” Elephant: Did Platybelodon Become Extinct Between 5 Million and 25 Million Years Ago-Or Did He Live in the Recent Past?


If dogs had become extinct 400 to 500 years ago, evolutionists probably would have created an elaborate family tree and asserted that the various types had evolved over millions of years. Maybe the Pekinese, Chihuahuas and Boxers would have been selected as the older more primitive dogs who would later, in this evolutionary scenario have evolved into the physically larger more gracile forms such as the Collie, the German Shepherd, the Greyhound and the Whippet. No doubt the wolf and other dog breeds would be in the middle branches somewhere.

Evolutionists see the animal tree as essentially a vertical one where millions of years are needed for creatures to evolve from one form to another. Creationists believe that the relationship between animals is horizontal with all forms living at the same time and/or genetic variations of the same type separated by time or distance. The polar bear and the brown bear are still bears, who exhibit their built in genetic variation.

The elephant as we know him is supposed to have evolved from more primitive forms of the order Proboscidea. One such “primitive” alleged elephant was Platybelodon, supposedly extinct before the evolution of modern man. But hey, why is one perched on top of this ancient Sudanese hat? (Fossils of platybelodon have also been found on the continent of Africa.)

“Platybelodon (“flat-tusk”) was a genus of large herbivorous mammal related to the elephant (order Proboscidea).
It lived during the Miocene Epoch, about 15-4 million years ago. Although it thrived during its time, it did not survive past the Miocene and is now extinct.

Some have speculated that it became too specialized and was unable to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Platybelodon was previously believed to have fed in the swampy areas of grassy savannas using its teeth to shovel up aquatic and semi-aquatic vegetation.

Photo, right: The animal displayed on the top of the Antique Sudanese “Hat” is compared with modern depictions of platybelodon.


However, wear patterns on the teeth suggest that it used its lower tusks to strip bark from trees. Platybelodon was very similar to the Amebelodon, another gomphothere species.

Another possibility is that it used its shovel-tusks to dig for water in dry seasons.
Due to the shape of the two lower teeth, which are worn by many gomphothere species (such as Platybelodon and Amebelodon) they are popularly known as shovel tuskers”….Wikipedia

Habitat
Platybelodon lived in wet parts of prairies and ate soft plants (including water plants).
When Platybelodon Lived
This prehistoric elephant lived during the middle to late Miocene (roughly 25 million years ago).
Classification
Platybelodon was an early mammal. Class Mammalia (mammals), Order Proboscidea, Suborder Elephantoidea (elephants), Family Gomphothere (closely related to Amebelodon), Genus Platybelodon.
Fossils
Fossils of Platybelodon have been found in North America, eastern Europe, Africa, and northwestern China (these animals probably crossed via the Siberian land bridge between the continents of Asia and North America)”….Enchanted Learning.com

  

Baule Ancient Dinosaur from Ivory Coast? BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Price Realized $7,500
Estimate
$3,000 – $4,000
Sale Information
Sale 2661
Arts of Africa, Oceania and the Americas including Property from the Estate of Ernst Beyeler
10 May 2012
New York, Rockefeller Plaza
TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York, The African-American Institute
1978
Lot Description
BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Length: 44½ in. (113 cm.)

This item is compared to a mid-sized quadrupedal dinosaur. This piece has four legs so it is not a bird. Morphologically it is quite similar to this dinosaur depiction. It does not appear to be a lizard.


“The Baule belong to the Akan peoples who inhabit Ghana and Côte d’Ivoire. Three hundred years ago the Baule people migrated westward from Ghana when the Asante rose to power. The tale of how they broke away from the Asante has been preserved in their oral traditions.

During the Asante rise to power the Baule queen, Aura Poku, was in direct competition with the current Asante king. When the Asante prevailed, the queen led her people away to the land they now occupy. The male descendant of Aura Poku still lives in the palace she established and is honored by the Baule as their nominal king.” Arts of Africa

  

An Assembly of Various Allegedly “Extinct for Millions of Years Creatures” In Traditional Upper Volta Sculpture


TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York
The African-American Institute
1978
26 x 21 cm

This antique sculpture from the Upper Volta region (now called Burkina Faso) appears to represent several creatures thought to have been extinct for millions of years. The quadrupeds have horned faces as do the ceratopsian dinosaurs and the bipedal, non human, winged creatures appear to represent several types of pterosaurs.

Both pterosaurs and birds have keeled breastbones but it is especially noticeable on this antique sculpture.

Conclusion:

These are just a few examples of art and artifacts from Western Africa which indicate a familiarity with various types of extinct dinosaurs and other creatures. Can some of them be explained away?

Perhaps.

Can all of them be explained away as mythological or fake? I don’t think so. We’ve encountered hundreds of examples of ancient or antique artifacts that we think prove that just as science was wrong with respect to the ceolocanth by 80,000,000 years (with no evolutionary changes in 400,000,000 evolution years) it is certainly possible that they are also wrong about the evolution of and extinction of the dinosaurs.

Video: Giant Obelisk Discovered In the Atlantic?

Church of Darwin, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jan 05 2013

Photo: Valley of the Pyramids. East Coast of the U.S. by F.M. Salichs
By Frank Martin Salich   

Note: Video access at end of this post.

We were initially contacted by Frank Martin Salich in early December. He wrote:

Hello. I’ve recently become convinced that God has preserved evidence of many pre-flood cities on the Earth’s ocean floors! I’ve discovered hundreds of miles of structures, and dozens of pyramids. There are cities with miles of straight rows of structures. Here are a few of the vast number of undersea structures which are all over the world’s oceans. My goal is to expose these images as much as possible for the world to see. “Whereby the world which then was, being overflowed with water perished.”
2 Peter 3: 6 GOD bless you. Frank

Along with his note he included 10 or 15 photos purportedly showing underwater objects around the world in the shape of pyramids or other potentially man formed shaped.

Now, we don’t have a problem with the idea of underwater cities and monuments; one of the early stories we covered here at s8int.com concerned underwater pyramids and structures 1/2 mile down off the coast of Cuba. In fact we had a number of stories about that potential site”.

We still had questions about the “photos” he sent us. Were they actually photos? Graphics? What?
These are not photos, correct, Frank?

His response:

“That is correct. They are not photos. They are Googlearth6 images of underwater topography, and what I believe to be pyramids and man-made structures on the ocean’s floors. Googlearth6 provides an ocean application. You can explore the world’s oceans just like you would above ground with Googlearth6.

Photo: 4 Pyramids off of the Coast of Florida by F.M. Salichs
The satellite technology apparently creates accurate imagery of the topography. You can rotate your view and move around from place to place just like the above ground Googlearth. Shallow bodies of water will not always allow underwater imagery. I’ve found several pyramids off the SOUTHEAST coast of Florida, one of them probably being the one that’s been reportedly located with sonar. I’ll send you an image of it. I’ve also found 5 pyramids in the Bahamas.

Believe it or not, I’ve also found hundreds of pyramids off the eastern seaboard, from New Foundland to South Carolina. More recently, I’ve found pyramids in, of all places, the Gulf of Mexico, from Mississippi to Texas. I’ve saved images of pyramids, and what appear to be man-made structures, in the North and South Poles, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.

I’ve invested hundreds of hours in search of these images and I want to share them with the world! I’ll send you a few more. I’ll continue to upload more images on http://www.disclose.tv/. Look up ‘Undersea Pyramid’. Martin

O.K. What we wanted to know as well is whether his work could be duplicated? Could anyone, given the proper coordinates and with the use of Googlearth6 find his same objects? I did verify that with Googlearth6 one can “go under water” and move around on the sea bottom; virtual-ly. I did so, myself and it looks like the photos we have here-absent the objects. I wasn’t able to find any of his objects but I only spent a few minutes verifying that it could be done. It’s difficult to get the hang of moving around on the sea floor.

Another concern I/we have is about the technology for assembling these images using sonar and/or side scan sonar. Does the technology itself create artifacts? Does it create 90 degree angles or corners that aren’t actually a feature of the object being scanned? We still don’t know the answers to those questions.

Photo:6 points ” cathedral” pyramid by F.M. Salichs
Back in 2009, , a grid pattern in the water off the coast of northern Africa raised speculation that it contained the streets of Atlantis, the legendary sunken city, but Google poured cold water on the idea. Google asserted that the unusual grid pattern was caused by sonar boats that collected the radar data.

Will this be a similar case? It is reasonable to suppose that if there was indeed a worldwide flood as I believe, that there might be large man made artifacts left under the world’s oceans.

Mr. Salichs has produced a video showing one of his artifacts; a 640 foot obelisk that he says he found off the coast of New Jersey. The video shows him virtual-ly moving above and around the object. Here’s a concern I have about the monument–what’s the terrestrial analogue? I mean where on dry land is a similar object?

Here’s his video intro. Thanks for giving us a look, Frank.

“While exploring the oceans with GOOGLE EARTH6 I found a 640 ft obelisk style tower. It is located approx. 120 mls off the coast of New Jersey. Sitting on a very large plane, with no other structures nearby for miles, it is taller than the Washington Monument, which stands at 555.5 ft. The base is rectangular with the long sides running from north to south.

Photo: Base of the Obelisk by F.M. Salichs

On the east side of the base you can clearly see squared sections with very long, straight lines and right angles angling away from the base. The lower east portion of the base has a large round opening, showing it to be hollowed out.

The tower is cylindrical and stands straight, like a towering redwood tree, with the top coming to a fine point. 10 miles east of this obelisk is a 3 sided pyramid and 14 miles west of it near the continental shelf are dozens and dozens of pyramids, very clearly visible and defined by GOOGLE EARTH6 satellite imagery. I will be posting more videos and images of these very shortly.”…Frank Martin Salichs, December 25, 2012

Late Survival Theorem, Regarding Chalicotherium
From A Comfy Chair, We I.D. Un-cuddly “Nandi Bear”?
Plus, a Terrace of Lions? Dude You’re not even Tryin’
Enigma’s & Mysteries Due to Skewed View of History

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Fin De Siecle, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2012



Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kinds, and cattle after their kinds, and every thing that creeps upon the earth after its kind:
and God saw that it was good.”

   
Can a Leopard Change Its Paradigm?

As a Christian my interests are not strictly limited to debates about the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation or debates concerning the existence of God. Those are all important to be sure but throughout history science has been driven by human curiosity about and discoveries concerning the world and the universe that God has made.

One of the interests I have is in something I like to call crypto-zoo-archaeology. Clues to the true history of our planet can be discovered by examining the art and artifacts of past civilizations. The truth is; studying and writing about what I and many others have found in these artifacts is another way of addressing; the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation and debates concerning the existence of God.


In this pursuit I have found that those who accept the literal creation account of Genesis have an incredible advantage in this arena. One can look at the artifacts of ancient history through at least two filters; 1)that all living creatures are descended from a single living cell and have evolved through some process (essentially linear and sequential) into the higher order living species that we see today, or 2)the Genesis account of creation which would mean that all living creatures including man have all lived together simultaneously through all history in essentially their current forms.

No matter which filter one uses much of ancient history will still be a puzzle. But using the wrong filter certainly leads to a copious number of; inconsistencies, anomalies, contradictions, unknowns, mysteries and a need to fill in missing information with speculations and assertions which are not data or evidence.

Personally, I have tested the Genesis account and found that what I see and what I expect to find in the historical and archaeological record better fit that filter.

Once one of the two above named paradigms are accepted however it is very difficult to see or even to consider evidence that conflicts with the paradigm. This is true whether you believe in evolution or in Creation ex Nihilo by God. This relative inability to see or except or even to evaluate evidence that might appear to conflict with your adopted paradigm afflicts even those among who are quite certain that we are actually open-minded and objective.

This doesn’t negate the fact that one of the referenced paradigms-is actually true-and that the selection of one or the other filter for your own life doesn’t have consequences.

When news outlets announced that James Cameron and others had allegedly found “the Jesus Tomb” it did not cause any consternation among us Christians who paid zero attention to the story. We waited for secular archaeologists to refute it-which they have. When news conferences, books and television series were coordinated around the announcement of an alleged human ancestor—which was going to change everything- exploded on the scene-“Ida”, I personally did not do a spit-take.

By the end of that year “Ida” was not even on lists for the top ten science stories of that year. “She/it had been debunked. I have never seen “evidence for evolution”. I’ve never seen a transitional fossil.

I accept that evolutionists have not seen evidence for the theory of creation either. However, shouldn’t just a single ancient artifact indicating that humans and dinosaurs lived together falsify the notion that we missed each other by 65 million years? In the 1920’s the World’s foremost archaeologist discovered human and dinosaur bones together in Mongolia and he found that they had fashioned jewelry by boring the shells and making ornaments of dinosaur eggs. (See our article: Dinosaur and Human Interactions in Our Times; the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago Sun Times ect)

Do I need to tell you that you need to use “fresh” un-fossilized dinosaur eggs for this purpose? Archaeologist, Roy Chapman Andrews, went on to become the director of the American Museum of Natural History-so how come so many evolutionists ask where there has ever been such evidence (of co-existence) ever in the world?

Let’s test my paradigm theory. Note the middle, right photograph compilation; the one with the three views of an archaeological object above. Once you read the museum’s description of the object, or perhaps prior thereto your filter goes into action.

“Colima Horned Toad. Protoclassic, ca. 100 B.C. to A.D. 250. Height: 5.3 in. (13.5 cm.); Length: 10.5 in. (26.7 cm.). Price: $2,250

There are four rows of spiked protrusions in high relief along the length of the body, and one row across the head, thirty in all. Coffee bean eyes, recessed nostrils, open mouth, spout as tail, and short legs create a reptile that seems pleased with his surroundings. Provenance: From a Riverside County, California Collection.”

Our article can be found Here.

Now, if you are a creationist, willing to believe that dinosaurs and man co-existed, you may see that the photo comparison with an armored dinosaur is very apt. If however, you are using the evolution filter it will be a toad. There is no way that it could be a dinosaur because you believe that they missed each other by 65 million years.

This is then, for you a toad, a fake or etc.. Paradigm preserved. Forehead unfurrowed. In the same way, of course, I have trouble accepting this as a toad because I see the dinosaur explanation as a better fit-however, I do believe that the toad explanation is a possibility.


These filters exist and work to protect us from having to flip flop our beliefs and our view on the world every five or six minutes.

Just above, left is another very interesting ancient artifact. This artifact is described by the curator as a “lion”. I picked this one out because I want to get into the heart of this post and talk about another group of famous lions. Most people would be perfectly willing to see this depiction as a “lion”.

“Early Islamic glass lion (zoomorphic balsamarium). 7th-9th century AD”.

Certainly no one would object to “mythological”, or “unknown animal” or even; “stylized lion figure”. One must make a decision and call it something. However, if you accept the evolutionary filter it is possible that a whole group of potential candidates can’t even be considered. What if the true depiction here is of some type of crested dinosaur? In the photo we’ve compared it to Olorotitan, a European, crested hadrosaur (top, right of photo) and to Amargasaurus, a crested sauropod. Fossils of the specific species have been found in Argentina.

My point is that creationists can consider the entire creation when examining an artifact but those using the other filter cannot—and maintain their paradigm-al purity. They must describe every artifact in terms of the ruling evolutionary paradigm or face the penalties that the scientific/academic/media culture will mete out. Can you imagine someone from Academia describing this as either a badly composed lion or possibly a sauropod like Amargasaurus?

So now let’s talk about some other depictions labeled “lions” by the archaeological establishment.

The Terrace of Lions at Delos


“The island of Delos, recognized as the birthplace of the god Apollo, has been a sacred area used for various reasons throughout history. Today it is one of the most important archaeological sites in Greece and is covered in excavations, one of which is the famous Terrace of the Lions. This terrace was erected and dedicated to Apollo by the people of Naxos just before 600 BCE.

The terrace consisted of a row of nine to twelve marble carved lions that faced eastward towards the Sacred Lake of Delos along the Sacred Way from Skardana Bay to the temples. The lions, with their mouths open as if roaring or snarling, were both meant to guard the sanctuaries and to inspire a feeling of divine fear among the worshippers. The way in which they were positioned is similar to the way sphinxes were set up along avenues in ancient Egypt.

Today, only five of the original lions remain with remnants of three others and the headless body of another has been transported and put over the main gate of a Venetian arsenal.” Biers, William R. The Archaeology of Greece. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1996. Whitley, James. The Archaeology of Ancient Greece. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2001.

“The island of Delos near Mykonos, near the centre of the Cyclades archipelago, is one of the most important mythological, historical and archaeological sites in Greece. The excavations in the island are among the most extensive in the Mediterranean; ongoing work takes place under the direction of the French School at Athens and many of the artifacts found are on display at the Archaeological Museum of Delos and the National Archaeological Museum of Athens.”

Photo:Naxian Lions held at the Museum at Delos are less damaged.


Question? Are these in fact, lions? If they are lions, they are surely “stylized lions” because their proportions are incorrect. Their front legs are too long. They have three fingers paws. Their bodies are too long. This from a culture that provides us many examples of museum level, realistic depictions of lions and other animals. If these are lions built to “guard” the sanctuaries why aren’t they more self-evidently and accurately sculpted; lions?

Could they depict some other animal? Are they mythological?

Prior to trying to answer that, we switch to a more recent crypto-zoological mystery; the Nandi Bear of Kenya for reasons which I hope to make clear.

The Nandi Bear and Chalicotherium


“The Nandi Bear, also known as Ngoloko, is a cryptid, or unconfirmed animal, reported to live in Africa. It takes its name from the Nandi people who live in western Kenya, near where the Nandi Bear is reported as living.

Frank W. Lane wrote, “What the Abominable Snowman is to Asia, or the great Sea Serpent is to the oceans, the Nandi Bear is to Africa. It is one of the most notorious of those legendary beasts which have, so far, eluded capture and the collector’s rifle.

…Descriptions of the Nandi Bear are of a ferocious, powerfully built carnivore with high front shoulders (over four feet tall) and a sloping back; somewhat similar to a hyena. Some have speculated that Nandi Bears are in fact a misidentified hyena or a surviving Ice Age giant hyena: Karl Shuker states that a surviving short-faced hyena Pachycrocuta brevirostris,extinct ca. 500,000 years before present, would “explain these cases very satisfactorily.”

Other than the Atlas Bear (extinct by the 1800s), no bears are known to be native to Africa, besides those of the prehistoric genera Agriotherium and Indarctos, which died out 4.4 million years ago. Louis Leakey suggested that Nandi Bear descriptions matched that of the extinct Chalicotherium, though chalicotheres were herbivores.

The Nandi people call it Kerit. Local legend holds that it only eats the brain of its victims. Nandi Bears were regularly reported in Kenya throughout the 19th century and early 20th century. Bernard Heuvelmans’s On the Track of Unknown Animals and Karl Shuker’s In Search of Prehistoric Survivors provide the most extensive chronicles of Nandi bear sightings in print.”


A syndicated news article appearing Mansfield News of January 6, 1924 reported that a very large fresh, fragment of unfossilized claw of chalicotherium had been discovered at Bunyoro, Uganda ( Central Africa) and that the thought to be extinct chalicotherium might be very much still alive.

In fact, Zoologists were making a connection between the stories the Nandi peoples had been telling of a fearsome, man killing, brain eating deadly night creature they called “Gereit” might exist and was in fact, chalicotherium. The drawing above right, is from that 1924 article and is a depiction of chalicotherium.

“Chalicotherium, genus of extinct perissodactyls, the order including the horse and rhinoceros. Fossil remains of the genus are common in deposits of Asia, Europe, and Africa from the Miocene Epoch (23 to 5.3 million years ago). The genus persisted into the following Pliocene Epoch, and remains of a related genus, Moropus, are found in North America.


Chalicotherium and its relatives, collectively known as the chalicotheres, ( we’re not locking down on the genus) were very unusual in appearance and structure. In overall appearance the body and slim skull were horse like. The front limbs were longer than the hind limbs, and the back sloped downward. The teeth were distinctive in structure and unhorse like. The feet were quite distinctive.

There were no hooves; instead, each of the three toes on each foot terminated in a strongly developed claw. It is probable that the development of claws was related to the feeding habits of the animal. Chalicotherium may have browsed on branches of trees, pulling them down with the front claws; the claws may also have been employed to dig up roots and tubers.”…Encyclopedia Britannica

The Crux: is the Nandi Bear a Chalicotherium? And What of the Lions of the Terrace at Delos?

Photo: Left, drawing of the Nandi bear from eyewitness accounts and Right, a frontal view of one of the Terrace of Lions, “lions”.

The Chalicotherium is supposed to have gone extinct from 5-7 million years ago. The chalicotherium has been forth as a possible ID for the Nandi bear primarily because the chalicotherium is also known for having much longer front legs than back legs and to have claws as some eyewitness accounts of the Nandi bear have described it.

The Nandi bear is also a cryptid whose description fits no known, living animal so the late survival of some animal thought to have been prehistoric are put forward as potential suspects. Hyenadon is another animal thought to have been prehistoric that has also been put forth as a potential suspect for the same reasons; high front shoulders, long front legs and a sloping back.

The chalicotherium ID is interesting in that this animal also has very unusual feet and claws which set him apart.

Photo:Comparison of admittedly carefully selected chalicotherium depiction inserted into old photo of Naxian (Terrace of Lions) Lion at Delos.


I came across the Terrace of Lions of Delos quite by accident while investigationg some other matter and was struck by how un-lion-like the lions were. They are magnificent animals to be sure but not like any lions I’ve ever seen. Could they be depictions of real creatures-who were not lions?

I did a quick Google search for prehistoric animals with long front legs and immediately was taken to articles about chalicotherium. Articles about chalicotherium also eventually led to articles concerning modern day speculation by cryptozoologists that chalicotherium was a potential match for the Nandi bear, a cryptid that I was unaware of.

The photo at the top of this section shows a very common drawing of the Nandi bear (of unknown source) along with a frontal photo of one of the lions of the Terrace of Lions. This is interesting because as far as I know no one has ever speculated that the “lions” of the Terrace of Lions has anything to do with either the Nandi bear or with chalicotherium. So is this visual similarity (if your filters aren’t preventing you from seeing it or mine forcing me to) just a coincidence?

Chalicotheres are usually depicted as thick, slow and sloth-like and not as fast, relatively slim and dangerous as the lions of Delos seem to appear.

Photo:Comparison of the skeleton of chalicotherium with a Naxian “lion” from the Delos Museum. Note that the face of the Naxian lion shown here has been worn down by weathering and age..


We know from articles about dinosaur depictions that scientists and artists are only guessing when they depict dinosaurs how a dinosaur looks just from their fossils alone.

We also remember that last year a scientific journal reported that scientists now believe that due to an error in a formula they have been using that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by as much as 33% to 50%. The size of their bones are known it was the amount of meat the artists were throwing on the bone that is in question. This suggests that certain dinosaurs were depicted as much bulkier animals than they actually were. Could this be true of chalicotherium?

When artists or illustrators depict known animals the variety of the depictions, the form, the poses can be infinite because the real creature can appear in infinite poses and can be seen from infinite angles.

This not the case with unknown creatures. Inevitably, once a depiction of an animal is made (a guess) all other depictions take the shape of the reference depiction (or first few) and there becomes a limited view of the shape of the creature and even the poses that the animal is shown in. This group think about the look of an unknown creature appears to be inevitable. A radical departure from the consensus view of the creature won’t even be recognized as a depiction of said creature. Ironically an ancient depiction by an eyewitness to the living creature might be rejected because it does not look like the modern, consensus depiction.

Chalicotherium has three toes on each foot ending in claws. Still, the front and back feet are completely different from each other which may provide us some ID possibilities. Are there Nandi bear descriptions of three-toed feet? (By the way lions have five toes in front and four on their back feet).

Here is an antique, eyewitness account of an encounter with the Nandi bear:

“…the whole tent rocked; the pole to which Mbwambi was tied flew out and let down the ridge-pole, enveloping me in flapping canvas. At the same moment the most awful howl I have ever heard split the night. The sheer demoniac horror of it froze me still…I heard my pi-dog yelp just once. There was a crashing of branches in the bush, and then thud, thud, thud, of some huge beast making off. But that howl! I have heard half a dozen lions roaring in a stampede-chorus not twenty yards away; I have heard a maddened cow-elephant trumpeting; I have heard a trapped leopard make the silent night miles a rocking agony with screaming, snarling roars. But never have I heard, nor do I wish to hear again, such a howl as that of the chimiset. A trail of red spots on the sand showed where my pi-dog had gone. Beside that trail were huge footprints, four times as big as a man’s, showing the imprint of three huge clawed toes, with trefoil marks like a lion’s pad where the sole of the foot pressed down. But no lion ever boasted such a paw as that of the monster which had made that terrifying spoor.” Karl Shuker’s Blog

The Nandi bear has been described as having five or six toes in various accounts over the last century as well. I believe that Dale Drinnon who has written extensively on the Nandi bear postulates that the six toed account is assumed to have been where the back feet stepped into an existing three-toed front track.

Various descriptions noted that the animal liked to sit back on its haunches, described it as bear-like (hence the name) having large feet and as being brown in color.

Photo: The interesting foot of the Naxian lion from the Delos Museum compared with the interesting rear foot of the chalicotherium.


Regarding the lions of Delos again; it can be clearly seen from the less damaged statues inside the museum that the lions have three toes on the front feet and very long rear feet, also with three long claws. This superficially at least matches the front feet and rear feet of chalicotherium.

We’ve shown here additional photographs comparing the feet of chalicotherium with those on the Delos lions-both front and rear as well as a number of photographs comparing the physiology, including the long front legs and sloping back.

Photo:A comparison of the three clawed front foot of chalicotherium with the front feet of the Delos, Naxian Lion.


I’ve gone back to look at the actual chalicotherium skeleton to see if a depiction of the living creature as long, slim bodied with a sloping back would also have been a realistic way to depict the creature notwithstanding all the thousands of versions of fat chalicos.

I’ve concluded that the skeleton does lend itself to the Delos, Terrace of Lions, chalicotherium which has closely matching front and back feet, the long front legs and the sloping back of the fossil chalicotherium. (See my admittedly unscientific juxtapostion photo above left.) Even the long hair (mane) of the statues fails to accurately depict the mane of a lion and does remind me of the long hair on certain sloths.

It appears that there is reason to connect the chalicotherium; a creature that supposedly became extinct 5-7 million years ago to the Naxian Lions at Delos. There appears to be some evidence that there is a connection between the Nandi bear of Kenya and Central Africa and the chalicotherium. The elongated bodies of the Naxian lions could be a match for the elongated bodies, and unusual feet of the chalicotherium which could aide in an affirmative identification and prove that chalicotherium was a “late survivor” and could even still be alive.

One More Mystery; Are They Telling the Truth About this Great Monument-or are They Still Lion? Filters On?


Sigiriya (Lion’s rock) Sri Lnkan Mega Site

“In 1831 Major Jonathan Forbes of the 78th Highlanders of the British army, while returning on horseback from a trip to Pollonnuruwa, came across the “bush covered summit of Sigiriya”. Sigiriya came to the attention of antiquarians and, later, archaeologists. Archaeological work at Sigiriya began on a small scale in the 1890s. H.C.P. Bell was the first archaeologist to conduct extensive research on Sigiriya. The Cultural Triangle Project, launched by the Government of Sri Lanka, focused its attention on Sigiriya in 1982. Archaeological work began on the entire city for the first time under this project. There was a sculpted lion’s head above the legs and paws flanking the entrance, but the head broke down many years ago”….Wikipedia
Sigiriya consists of an ancient castle built by King Kasiappan during the 5th century. The Sigiriya site has the remains of an upper palace sited on the flat top of the rock, a mid-level terrace that includes the Lion Gate and the mirror wall with its frescoes, the lower palace that clings to the slopes below the rock, and the moats, walls, and gardens that extend for some hundreds of metres out from the base of the rock.

The site is both a palace and a fortress. Despite its age, the splendor of the palace still furnishes a stunning insight into the ingenuity and creativity of its builders. The upper palace on the top of the rock includes cisterns cut into the rock that still retain water. The moats and walls that surround the lower palace are still exquisitely beautiful.

During Kassapa’s reign in the 5th century AD, a massive, 60-foot lion was chiseled out of the rock. The steps which continued up to the royal palace started at the lion’s feet, wrapped around his body and eventually entered his mouth. Today, all that remain are the paws, but they give a good idea of the statue’s scale. It’s hard to appreciate how impressive it must have been 1500 years ago. It would be impressive now.

The final flight of stairs, hugging tightly to the stone wall, is not for those who suffer from vertigo…Great Photos as the site of srilanka for 91days.com

Here is the mystery; the lion’s head has fallen down and that years ago. One of the most famous parts of the entire sight is the gigantic “lion’s Paws that begin the assent to the next level. But the paws rendered in great detail, are of a creature with three claws on each foot. Lions have five total claws on each front foot although one claw is a “thumb” that usually does not show in a foot print.


So, did someone take the time and input the engineering to construct a megalithic structure featuring a lion only to get the detail concerning the number of claws wrong? I’m even more amazed that no one seems to be questioning whether or not these are meant to be lion’s paws. People seem content just to accept the ID and to move on to the other incredible features of the site.

At least cryptozoologists ought to be asking about the three-clawed lion–if not biologists.

Seriously, is it even reasonable to suppose that the people who built this great monument intended it to represent a three toed lion? Even beyond the number of claws, go google lion claws, view the images and you will note that notwithstanding the actual number of claws–they are nothing like the claws of a lion. What creature, perhaps lion-like in demeanor could be confused with a depiction of a lion- and have three sharp claws on its front feet?

Well, certain dinosaurs might fit the bill–and of course there is the Naxian lion come chalicotherium….

–Comments to: s8intcom@comcast.net

Crypto-Zoo-Archaeological Mysteries Challenge Conventional Histories. The Ceratopsian Dinosaur and the Elephant in Ancient South America?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 06 2012


by Chris Parker, Copyright 2012

Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron. It ranks first among the works of God…Job 40

 

 

Ceratopsian Dinosaurs in Ancient South America?

Evidence indicating the historical presence of ceratopsian dinosaurs in South America within the last 1,000 years would be controversial for at least two reasons; one, ceratopsian dinosaurs are thought by modern science to have been extinct for 65 million years and two, science at most only recognizes the presence of one type of ceratopsian dinosaur on that entire continent.

Ceratopsian dinosaurs were, vegetarian, quadruped, frilled and horned dinosaurs whose fossils have been found primarily in North America, Asia and Europe. Incidentally, they also had tails like a cedar; Certainly much thicker than that of the hippo which some believe is described in the book of Job.

Unusual identifying features for this dinosaur include the rostral bone which gives its face a beak like appearance and the jugal bones which scientists most often depict as bones protruding from the side of the animals face. Ceratopsia is derived from the Greek for “horned face”.

Only one species has been identified from fossils in South America, Notoceratops and the scant fossils upon which that tentative identification was based have since been lost.

There is however a narrow strip of land between North and South America called the Isthmus of Panama, known in the past as the Isthmus of Darien, containing the country of Panama and the Panama Canal. According to current scientific belief, that land bridge was formed three million years ago, after the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Artifacts indicating that ceratopsian dinosaurs were living as the same time as man on the continent of South America would: call into question the entire evolutionary/materialistic time frame for evolution and the extinction of dinosaurs; prove that ceratopsians also lived on the Southern continent and calling into question the supposed timing of the formation of the Isthumus of Panama; provide an answer to the question that paleontologists have been debating as to whether or not ceratopsians had “cheeks” which covered their jugal bone formations or whether they were “cheekless” having the bones protrude as horns and/or some type of defense mechanism.

If ceratopsians indeed had cheeks which covered the jutting jugal bone they certainly would have a wide, almost smiling mien which would differ signifcantly from the way modern science now depicts them. If there are multiple South American artifacts indicating the presence of ceratopsians in South America, then why haven’t more fossils of the dinosaurs been found?

A Startling Artifact Depicting a South American, Short Frilled, Vegetable Eating Ceratopsian?


“The ceratopsians are largely subdivided into two groups: the long-frilled and the short-frilled dinosaurs. Largely identical to each other – short but powerful legs, robust bodies, tortoise beak-like jaws and a varied number of horns – they had either a shorter, more plain frill with smaller openings that didn’t extend beyond the dinosaur’s neck and shoulders (the short-frilled dinosaurs) or a longer frill with larger internal openings that extended further beyond the shoulders, occasionally possessing spikes of various length on its end.”…Walking with Dinosaurs Wikia.com

Ecuador is engaged in the process of “repatriating” 5,000 pre Columbian artifacts from Ecuador’s historic past which have been obtained either legally or illegally and which have been scattered around the world to museums and private collections. Recently elements of the Ecuadorian government sued to stop an international auction featuring a number of pre Columbian artifacts that they allege are from Ecuador. In turn, several auction have sued Ecuador claiming that the artifacts were obtained legally.

The artifact shown above right was among the objects for which Ecuador seeks a return. This pre Columbian artifact from ancient Ecuador appears to depict one of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs. It has a short frill and is depicted eating vegetation.


From the angle of the photo, the rostral bone depiction is not strong but still evident as the middle of the mouth is closer to the observer. In terms of cheeks vs no cheeks the artist came down firmly on the cheek school, depicting the cheeks totally subsuming the jugal bones on the side of the face giving the animal a wide, “grinning” mouth.

There is another visible feature in this depiction which although not dispositive of all other theories would tend to support the identification of the creature as a ceretopsian—or else cast some doubt.

That’s right! I’m talking about the creatures toes. See the photo above, right. The artist clearly depicts this animal as having five toes on the front feet (manus). But, what have paleontologists found with respect to the manus and pes (forefeet and hindfeet) of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs?

Among the short frilled ceratopsians were; protoceratops, monoceratops, leptoceratops and centrosaurus. The diagram represents one of centrosaurus’s forefeet.


“McCrea also conceded that some ceratopsians had five toes on the forefoot and four toes on the hindfoot and therefore would also be capable of leaving similar footprints.] The best known ceratopsians were known from strata more recent than that which preserved Tetrapodosaurus, however more recent discoveries have pushed the age range of ceratopsians back into ages comparable to that of Tetrapodosaurus. Nevertheless, McCrea supported the ankylosaur interpretation”…… Wikipedia on the question of who left the Abyssal/Gates tracks


“Protoceratops held its head low for grazing, using its parrotlike beak to snip off low leaves, which were swallowed whole, since the teeth were of no use for chewing. Its front feet had five toes” Quote Source

In short, we have a pre Columbian depiction of a possible short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaur some 65 million years after their extinction according to the current scientific paradigm, eating vegetation (what mythical dragons eat vegetation), with the requisite number of toes/fingers potentially answering a question regarding cheeks that has been argued for some time.

But is this a one off?

Corroborating South American Ceratopsia Depictions?

According to wikipedia, the name Ceratopsia was coined by Othniel Charles Marsh in 1890 to include dinosaurs possessing certain characteristic features, including horns, a rostral bone, teeth with two roots, fused neck vertebrae, and a forward-oriented pubis.

Two years prior to that, in 1888, Popular Science Monthly had an interesting article on whistles entitled, “Whistles, Ancient and Modern” by M. L. Gutode.

In the passage describing the artifact we want to examine he writes: “Seeing that so much can be done with such rude means, it is not strange that the whistle was a well-known instrument in antiquity. The old Peruvians were past masters in the fabrication of whistles.

They made them in great numbers, of earth, and ornamented with various designs and figures of animals. The porcelain-factory at Sèvres (Fig. 1) possesses two specimens of their workmanship, one of which resembles a nightingale; and, when filled with water, it produces a kind of warbling. There is an instrumental museum at the Paris Conservatory of Music, which is open to the public on Thursday afternoons.

It was founded by Clapisson, and in the beginning consisted only of a single collection — of whistles. This was, moreover, a most curious collection, comprising whistles of all ages and all countries, of terra-cotta, copper, ivory, hard stone, etc., some of which were.”


FIG. 1.?—?ANCIENT PERUVIAN EARTHEN WHISTLES. Nos. 1 and 2, figure of an animal, in face and in profile. No. 3. another form (From specimens in the Sèvres Museum.)

remarkable as specimens of invention and workmanship. Unfortunately, this collection was scattered to the winds at an auction-sale twenty years ago, and the conservatory has not preserved any part of it ; but there are still a great many curiosities in the instrumental museum — serpents in the most distressing shapes, horns and trumpets of crystal, flutes of porcelain, fiddles of faience, Alpine horns, a bassoon of such extraordinary adjustment that it is a day’s work to dismount it; and many other most curious contrivances for producing melodies and accompaniments.”… Popular Science Monthly at Wikipedia

Wouldn’t you be curious to see some of those “serpents in the most distressing shapes”?
Mr. Gutode suggests that the depiction on the far left is of a nightingale but keeping in mind that the ceratopsian order had not yet been named its no wonder that he didn’t consider a short frilled ceratopsian dinosaur. However, I think that’s a better identification than the nightingale.


From this view of the whistle we can see the beak caused by the placement of the rostral bone and as well we see the wide mouth caused by the interior jugal bones on each side of the head. We offer some head shots of modern short frilled ceratopsians for comparison sake.

Photo: Leptoceratops top left and bottom left, protceratops, bottom right.It’s worth noting that Ecuador, the source of our first artifact is only about 750 miles from Panama and the land Bridge between North and South America and that Peru, the source of this artifact, shares a border with Ecuador.
 

 

Bird-Headed Figure Whistle, 8th or 9th century Mexico, Veracruz

Finally, on our brief survey of pre Columbian artfacts depicting ceratopsian dinosaurs is this interesting artifact. The Metropolitan Museum of New York has a ceramic piece in its collection which it describes as bird-headed. It’s a ceramic 20.25 inches high, a part of the Michael C. Rockeller Memorial Collection donated to the museum in 1963.

The artifact is pre Columbian dated to the 8th 0r 9th century A.D. from Veracruz, Mexico.



The head features a bird-like beak and indications of the rostral bone characteristic of ceratopsians. It has a short frill, and has cheeks wide enough to accommodate the jugal hornlike facial projections also a characteristic of ceratopsian dinosaurs.

 

 

 

 

Crypto-Zoo-Archaelological Indications of Elephants in Pre Columbian South America

In viewing this artifact and while reading these pieces on elephants in South America it is important to realize that many female elephants do not have tusks and that tusklessness occurs in male elephants as well.

Science seems to be fragmented on the idea of elephants in the Americas in recent times but will allow elephants down to 10,000 years ago in South America. The problem is, there is evidence of their existence here in North America and in South America as well within the last 1,000 years or even later.

A species of ungulate believed to be ancestral to elephants and which supposedly became extinct more than 23 million year s ago is a possible answer to a question raised by a pre Columbian artifact presumably depicting some type of local fauna.

Recent Survival Of The Elephant In The Americas William Corliss, Science Frontiers OnLine
No. 68: Mar-Apr 1990


Photo:Mayan “elephant motif”.

“Elephants were supposed to have disappeared from the America about 10,000 years ago as the Ice Ages waned. This date is another of those “consensus” scientific facts that no one dares challenge if he or she wishes to get published or win research grants. Although this subject remains “closed off” in normal scientific intercourse, there remain tantalizing hints that elephants roamed the Americas until very recently – perhaps even a few hundred years ago!

The following snippets are culled from two articles written by G. Carter, Texas A&M, now emeritus, but always heretical:

1. Numerous folk memories of the elephamt were retained by American Indians.
2. A mastadon was killed, cooked, and eaten by humans in Ecuador circa 1500 BC.
3. Indians told Thomas Jefferson that elephants could still be seen in the region of the Great Lakes.
4. In Florida, a cache of extinct animals, including elephants, was carbon-dated at 2000 BP.
5. Elephant heads are prominent in art and sculpture from Mexico, Central American, and northern South America.

(Carter, George F.; “A Note on the Elephant in America,” and “The Mammoth in American Epigraphy,” Epigraphic Society, Occasional Publications, 18:90 and 18:213, 1989.) ‘

Sitchin’s Elephant


An Elephant Among the Wheels“Jalapa, a gem of a town, is about two hours’ drive from Veracruz (where the Spanish Conquistador Hernan Cortes landed in 1519).

Its museum is undoubtedly second only to the famed one in Mexico City; but unlike Mexico City’s which displays artifacts from all over the country, the Jalapa one exhibits only locally discovered artifacts — predominantly Olmec ones.

Dramatically and effectively displayed in an innovative setting, the Museum boasts several colossal stone heads as well as other stone sculptures. It also displays smaller objects found at Olmec sites; among them, in special display showcases, are what are considered to be Olmec “toys.” They include animals mounted on wheels — a visual and evidentiary negation of the common claim that the people of Mesoamerica (and America in general) were unfamiliar with the wheel.

And included in the same display case were elephants — “toys” made of clay.

Gone – Where and Why? I, and some of my fans who accompanied me, saw them on previous visits to the Museum.
BUT when I (and again some of my fans with me) was there recently — in December 1999 — the elephants were nowhere in sight!

I could find no one in authority to obtain an explanation from. But that the elephants were once there was a fact indeed, here is a photograph of one, shot on a previous visit:

Now, here is the significance of this small artifact: There are no, and never have been, elephants in the Americas. There are and have been elephants in Africa. And a depiction of an elephant could have been made only by someone who has seen an elephant, i.e. someone who has been to Africa!”

 
Aspire Auction Pre Columbian Coati Muni—Or Elephant?


Recently an auction house specializing in ancient artifacts had this pre Columbian artifact for sale at one of its auctions.
Just for information purposes it eventually sold for $161 dollars which is the kind of price you’re going to realize if your ancient artifact looks like a dinosaur or even, God forbid an elephant which is out of time and place.

 


I would tend to believe that an actual depiction of a pre Columbian coati mundi would have fetched more.

The artifact is small; approximately 4 x 5 x 3.5 inches and is described as a “ Pre-Columbian Coati Mundi Head Fragment “., The piece is terracotta and hollow and is further described by the auction house as having “slit eyes” and an “extended nose”..

 



The South American Coati Mundi is a relative of the raccoon and is common in South America. It is also known as the Quati. Their coloration is variable. Unfortunately, coatis don’t have the nose or the ears for this artifact. One is pictured here along with a front view of the artifact.

 

 

 

Pyrotherium, another possibility over coati mundi?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pyrotherium (‘fire beast’) is an extinct genus of South American ungulate, of the order Pyrotheria, that lived in what is now Argentina, during the Early Oligocene.(between 43 annd 23 million years ago) It was named “Fire Beast” because the first specimens were excavated from an ancient volcanic ashfall.

The vaguely elephant-like Pyrotherium was 3 m (10 ft) long and 1.50 m (5 ft) tall at the shoulders, with a weight up to 3500 kg (3.85 tons). Its heavy body was carried by robust legs. Pyrotherium also had a short trunk on its snout, and two pairs of flat, forward-facing tusks in the upper jaw, with a single pair in the lower jaw.


Photo: Left, Restoration of the head by Robert Bruce HorsfallPossible South American descendants of the xenungulates, the complete study of the tarsus of Pyrotherium fails to support this relationship. In one study, derived characters were not seen in any mammal examined except the embrithopod Arsinoitherium from the Tertiary of Africa.[3] Whether this is due to common ancestry, or to the unusual mode of locomotion used by these animals (graviportal and plantigrade) remains to be seen.”

Were there elephants and/or elephants related to elephants in South America within the last 1,000 years? The artifacts say yes but science says no. Will science carry by labeling trunked animal depictions as coati mundi with extended ears and noses or as macaws as some label the Mayan “elephant”.

Perhaps they can maintain their illusions and their evolutionary allusions if they have enough Darwinsitic faith.

See Also:Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part I

Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part II

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part 2- Exit the Dragon; Enter the Dinosaur. Why Dinosaurs are Not Extinct-In Ancient Art Museums Around the World

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Jul 09 2012


Story Below–Photo: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum-

“Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox. Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly. He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the chief of the ways of God….. Job 40

“So God created the Great Dragons” …Genesis 1:21 The Latin Vulgate; 5th Century

 

by Chris Parker Copyright July 2012 by Chris Parker and s8int.com
Part II Prologue

Return to PART I

“One thing on which both creationists and evolutionists agree is that dinosaurs make marvelous teaching tools. Rare is the adult—and even more rare is the child—who does not have a keen interest in dinosaurs.

These magnificent beasts with the polysyllabic names capture our attention as we fixate on their massive size, their lizard-like skin, or the terror they were apparently able to create as they roamed the Earth. From kindergarten through graduate school, dinosaurs often are used as a tool to indoctrinate students regarding the “fact” of organic evolution.

In most public school, college, and university settings, when dinosaurs are discussed, it is in the context of their evolutionary origin, development, and extinction. Students are told that these wondrous animals evolved from some ancient reptile into what we now know as birds. In such a setting, it is commonplace to use the dinosaurs to instruct simultaneously on the ancient nature of the Earth and/or Universe.” ..www.apologeticspress.org/

Christians and other man/dinosaur believers often haven’t organized their pro dinosaur and man beliefs, explanations and/or theories in such a way as to affirmatively deal with the current scientific paradigm’s onslaught. There is an impressive amount of intellectual firepower directed against anyone who would believe in the historical coexistence of man and dragon/dinosaur. So much so that going up against it is a true David vs Goliath struggle.

There is however, ample evidence in the art and history of ancient civilizations that support the truth which most people are ignorant of. It’s helpful to remember that David won his struggle and Goliath lost his head.

Enter the Dinosaur

Last month, (June 2012) a study whose results were published in the journal Nature suggests that despite long held scientific belief to the contrary, dinosaurs were warm blooded. “Researchers in Spain and Norway reported that they had found tree-like growth rings on the bones of mammals, a feature that until now was thought to be limited to cold-blooded creatures”.

They also found that dinosaurs must have had a high metabolic rate in order to grow to their sometimes great size. Dinosaurs are thought to be reptiles and; reptiles by definition are cold-blooded.

In the July 2010 issue of the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology John Scannella and Jack Horner of the Museum of the Rockies published a study that did away with Triceratops, Draconex, Stygimoloch, and nanotyrannus, describing them as simply juvenile versions of Torosaurus, Pachycephalosaurs and tyrannosaurus whose skulls have simply changed as they aged.

As we mentioned in Part 1 of this article, a June 2009 article in LiveScience indicated that scientists had overestimated the weight and size of dinosaurs by as much as 1/2 to 1/3. As an example an Apatosaurus previously thought to weigh 42 tons is now thought to have weighed “only” 20 tons.

A Discover Magazine article in 2000 confirms that much of what we think dinosaurs looked like is pure speculation on the part of illustrators and paleontologists. No one is really sure what they looked like.

Guess what? If you don’t know anything about dinosaurs you’re practically an expert. This lack of real knowledge about dinosaurs is important as we evaluate the evidence for or against dinosaur depictions in the art of ancient peoples.

Exit the Dragon

Photo: Darwin Hunts Dinosaur from the Time of Christ-to the Death? Palestrina Mosaic Dinosaur

As a self described cryptozooarchaeologist, I have to admit that I am not out standing in my field. In fact, the evidence I search for is not out in the fields. Rather it is in old books, museum collections, libraries and in internet museum databases. I’ll continue to provide some evidence here in Part 2 of this article that; dinosaurs and man lived contemporaneously, that this evidence exists in the art and history of most ancient cultures, and that modern science has hidden or ignored this evidence in a number of both overt and covert ways.

Prior to 1841 when Sir Richard Owen coined the term “dinosauria” to describe a class of gigantic, reptile-like animals whose fossils were then being discovered and classified every culture had a name for these animals. The Bible and other historical texts and authors called them dragons (or their own local words). When Darwin published the “Origin of the Species” in 1859 he of course had no idea that the actual or virtual extinction of these animals would be used as one of the major standard bearers of the organic evolution theory.

However, the art and artifacts of ancient people proves that as late as the publication of his book other cultures were still recording evidence of the existence of these animals in their times. The accompanying graphic shows Darwin hunting a dinosaur that must have existed at the time of Christ; a dinosaur lifted from the 1st century Roman Mosaic known as the Palestrina Mosaic.

 

Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs Part II

PART 1 of THIS ARTICLE

If one looks at the art and artifacts particularly from China and from South America, their artifacts and arts are literally permeated with depictions of “dragons” and serpents. This is true of other ancient cultures but it is especially noteworthy in these two geo cultural locations. In Part 1 we dealt mostly with dragons/dinosaurs from Asia. I want to transition from Asia to the Americas in Part II of this article but it is appropriate to begin in Asia. Here are three (out of many) dragon depictions from Asia that in fact possibly depict dinosaurs.

Ancient Chinese Bipedal Dragon from the Shanghai Museum

In October of 2010 the Museo del Oro del Banco de la Republica in Bogata, Columbia held a temporary exhibition of Chinese art from the Shanghai Museum entitled: Emperial Dragons from the Collection of the Shanghai Museum”. The exhibition contained 300 works of art related to dragon imagery representing a period it was said of over 5,000 years.

The painting at the top of this article and reproduced here was a part of that collection. The description of the work is: “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.”

It is a beautiful piece that features a perhaps “typical” Chinese dragon, a landscape and some men described as “holy”. There are however, several very interesting things about this particular dragon. For one thing, it appears to be bipedal. Now how or why would the Chinese depict a mythical dragon as bipedal? There were in fact many bipedal dinosaurs but science tells us that they all became extinct more than 65 million years ago.

At the very least it’s a big coincidence that artists living three to four thousand years ago would conceive of a four legged, bipedal dragon without ever having seen a four legged, bipedal dinosaur.

Another curious thing about this “dragon” is that the artist for some reason has made it quite clear that this dragon has three clawed “hands” as well as three clawed feet. I have a high resolution version of this piece of art and the claws are distinctive. The final thing of note is that this dragon has a head crest.

I made the point in Part 1 that it is curious that virtually every ancient culture depicted dragons; reptilian, dangerous, large creatures which arguably also fits the description of dinosaurs that they supposedly never saw. I wondered if a crested, bipedal, dinosaur fossil had ever been discovered in China, so I Googled it. I went to images. Google Dinosaur Images

Literally, the first dinosaur that appeared on Google with that description was the Guanlong dinosaur.

This is how Wikipedia described that supposedly millions of years gone dinosaur:


“About 3.0 metres (9.8 ft) long,[1] its fossils were found in the Shishugou Formation dating to about 160 million years ago, in the Oxfordian stage of the Late Jurassic period, 92 million years before its well-known relative Tyrannosaurus.

This bipedal saurischian theropod shared many traits with its descendants, and also had some unusual ones, like a large crest on its head. Unlike later tyrannosaurs, Guanlong had three long fingers on its hands. Guanlong was discovered in the Dzungaria area of China by scientists from George Washington University, and named by Xu Xing in 2006. Guanlong comes from the Chinese words for “crown” and “dragon”, referring to the crest.” Wikipedia

In the graphic above are comparisons of Guanlong with our Han Dynasty “dragon depictions”. Turns out that in addition to being bipedal like our dragon, it had a headcrest and as it turns out, three fingers and three toes just like our dragon. Does this prove that the Han Dynasty depiction is of the Guanlong dinosaur? Not necessarily, but for those who believe that man and dinosaurs lived together this is exactly what one would expect.

It would be difficult for naysayers to explain why a dragon was depicted with morphological features exactly like that of an actual dinosaur who lived it that same geographical area-but science isn’t explaining, it is ignoring.

 

Neolithic Culture Cultural Jade

The object description: “These Photo Galleries were developed from our private collection acquired and privately kept in Hong Kong since 1979. They were uncovered from Neolithic ruins and found their way to the Hong Kong open market since the mainland economy began to open its doors to traders.


These Neolithic Cultural Jades differ from the traditionally collected “burial jades” from the traditional archeological burial sites of Hongshan and Liangchu, discovered in the 1920s and 1930s. Source


Here it is shown in comparison to Yangchuanosaurus. “Yangchuanosaurus is an extinct genus of metriacanthosaurid theropod dinosaur that lived in China during the late Oxfordian (and possibly Kimmeridgian) stage of the Late Jurassic, and was similar in size and appearance to its North American contemporary, Allosaurus.

It hails from the Upper Shaximiao Formation and was the largest predator in a landscape which included the sauropods Mamenchisaurus and Omeisaurus as well as the Stegosaurs Chialingosaurus, Tuojiangosaurus and Chungkingosaurus”…Wikipedia

 

A Pair of Western Han Dynasty Beaulieu Screens Copper Bracket

Descripton of the Artifact:

“Western Han Dynasty. Object is 33.5 cm high and 27.3cm long. The screens on both sides of the barrier under the bracket, the original gilt. Squat in the care seat Broom, proudly curved body Onchocerca, four feet on the synthesis by the two snakes structure on a bearing.

Volumes of the two snakes wrapped around a frog. Frog mouth violent head, trying to break free like. Longkou large sheet of mouth, a rim of the forelegs gripped Long, head stretched forward, as if to escape the invasion of the evil snake get the protection of the Dragon, serene state.


Dragon, snake, frog combination of the three together, is a highly plastic arts, the beauty of antiques. The snake, the frog was a totem of the ancient Yue people, the dragon is one of the four gods worshiped by the Central Plains, the snake wrapped around the frog, dragon stood on the snake to protect the frog tells the story of a legendary totem myths. Now in the possession: Guangzhou Xi Hannan Yue Museum.”


Keeping in mind the Prologue in which we mentioned that the size of many dinosaurs had been exaggerated shouldn’t a fair minded observer consider that this dragon is in fact a depiction of a living Chinese dinosaur during the Han Dynasty period? (206 B.C.–220 A.D.)

Here the Han Dynasty object is compared with Plateosaurus, Dinosaurs related to Plateosaurus have been found in South Africa, North America, and China. Note that Plateosaurus is not depicted with ears. Many ancient culture depictions of these creatures do show them with external ears. Modern science has drawn them as reptiles who often do not have external earflaps. However, as we noted in the Prologue, dinosaurs were probably warm-blooded and possibly not reptiles at all.

 

Dinosaur Depictions at the World’s Oldest Cities

If the Christian/creationist view concerning dinosaurs is correct, then dinosaurs were created by God less than 10,000 years ago and were contemporaneous with man from the beginning. If the evolutionary/current science paradigm is correct and dinosaurs became extinct 65,000,000 years ago, then no evidence of interaction between them should exist and the ubiquitous dragon of many ancient cultures is a mythological, unrelated phenomena.

Golbeki. “Now considered by some to be the oldest civilization in the world is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. “Göbekli Tepe is the oldest known man-made religious structure. The site, located on a hilltop, contains 20 round structures which had been buried, four of which have been excavated. Each round structure has a diameter of between 10 and 30 meters (30 and 100 ft) and all are decorated with massive, mostly T-shaped, limestone pillars that are the most striking feature of the site.

The limestone slabs were quarried from bedrock pits located around 100 meters (330 ft) from the hilltop, with neolithic workers using flint points to carve the bedrock. The majority of flint tools found at the site are Byblos and Nemrik points. That neolithic people with such primitive flint tools quarried, carved, transported uphill, and erected these massive pillars has astonished the archaeological world, and must have required a staggering amount of manpower and labor……


Many of the pillars are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract enigmatic pictograms. The pictograms may represent commonly understood sacred symbols, as known from Neolithic cave paintings elsewhere. The reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, donkeys, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures. (At the time the shrine was constructed, the surrounding country was much lusher and capable of sustaining this variety of wildlife, before millennia of settlement and cultivation resulted in the near–Dust Bowl conditions prevailing today.

…..Until excavations began, a complex on this scale was not thought possible for a community so ancient, and with such primitive quarrying tools. The massive sequence of stratification layers suggests several millennia of activity, perhaps reaching back to the Mesolithic”. ….Wikipedia

Wikipedia notes that there were reliefs of “snakes and other reptiles” at Göbekli Tepe. Here are some of the raised reliefs that might indicate that there were “dinosaurs” at one of the oldest archaeological sites ever found.

Tiahuanico. But some say that mysterious Tiahuanico a seaport 2.5 miles above sea level high in the Andes mountains is the world’s oldest city.

“The City of Tiahuanaco is also full of mystery. Lying at a height of some 13,000 feet, it lies on a plateau that looks like the surface of a foreign planet.

The atmospheric pressure is nearly half as low as at sea level and the oxygen content of the air is similarly small. This isolation and altitude makes the very construction of the city all the more remarkable. There is evidence that the city was once a port, having extensive docks positioned right on the earlier shoreline of the now inland waterbed. One of these wharves is big enough to accommodate hundreds of ships.”


According to Incan legends, Tihuanaco was built by a race of giants whose fatherland had been destroyed in a great deluge that had lasted for two months. Many of Tihuanaco’s buildings were constructed of massive finished stones, many tons in weight, that were placed in such a manner that only a people with advanced engineering methods could have designed and transported them.

Again, creationists might expect to discover some evidence that man had some interaction with dragons now called dinosaurs in ancient time and location. Of course, science would expect no such thing.

This ancient animal depiction is from Tihuanaco and is now housed at the National Archaeological Museum of Bolivia. Here is the official description:


A.D. 200-A.D. 1000
Gold Tiwanaku zoomorphic figurines

These dinosaurs appear to be quadruped carnivore’s although today we think of most carnivorous dinosaurs as having been bi-pedal. Some scientists have speculated that certain prosauropods were either carnivores or omnivores. In any case, here apparently is the view of an eyewitness.

 

The Pivot to South America

In 1973 the late Dr. Hendon Harris Jr. Wrote a book entitled ‘The Asiatic Fathers of America” that theorized based on certain ancient Chinese maps that seafaring Chinese reached the Americas repeatedly beginning around 2,200 B.C., and that those ancient Chinese were the ancestors of the “American Indians”.

“His proof centered on a world map he found in an old map book a year earlier in an antique shop in Korea.



Entitled “Everything under Heaven,” the ancient Chinese map not only showed known major land masses such as Asia, Africa, Australia, and Europe, but located China’s fabled Fu Sang—literally “land to the east”—in the region we now know as North and South America”. Epoch Times…

This Colima Culture dragon reminds some of the Naga and other ancient Chinese dragon depictions (Below, right).


Other author’s and Academics have pointed to other evidence of the Ancient Chinese in the Americas including speculation that the ancient, Pre Hispanic and advanced Olmec culture was founded by the Chinese.

One thing is certain, both cultures in the form of their arts certainly showed a strong cultural interest in dragons/slash dinosaurs.


Acambaro Figurines. In 1944 Waldemar Julsrud, a hardware salesman spotted some curious ceramics sticking out of the ground near Acambaro, Mexico on El Toro Mountain.

After examining them, he concluded that they were from an unknown culture. Back in 1923 Julsrud had been the co-discoverer along with Padre Fray Jose Marie Martinez of what came to be known as the Chupicauro culture at an archaeological site only eight miles from El Toro. His discovery of the Chupicauro culture and artifacts which scientists came to believe flourished from 500 B.C. to 500A.D. still stands.

Julsrud paid a local farmer a peso a piece for any whole artifacts that were found at this new location near Acambaro and eventually amassed a collection of over 20,000 unique artifacts which included dinosaurs, Asians, Africans, bearded Caucasians, Polynesians, Egyptian and Sumerian objects and many others. The non-dinosaurian objects in the collection some called the “Museum that seared scientists” were virtually as offensive to the current scientific paradigm as were the dinosaurs. Science has reacted to the collection with a combination of intense indifference or a determination to lable them as fakes- from afar.

Ica Stones In 1966, Peruvian physician Javier Cabrera Darquea was prompted to begin collecting strange stones found near Ica, Peru which his father had also collected back in the 1930’s. These stones of various sizes showed man and dinosaurs interacting but also, telescopes, heart surgery, constellations and many other seemingly out of place and time depictions. Cabrera amassed a collection of over 11,000 of these stones. Like the Acambaro figurines, they also came to be labeled fakes.

Photo:Etching from one of the Ica Stones.

Here we potentially have two of the greatest archeaological discoveries of all time being quickly labeled fakes and then ignored by science in the years since. I personally don’t accept the pronouncement. One thing about faking artifacts; it would only be profitable if they are sold to someone.

Here are three reasons why they are unlikely to be fakes; 1)There are 20,000 unsold Acambaro figurines and over 11,000 Ica Stones. Not a very shrewd way to fake a living is it? 2)There are morphological characteristics on certain of the dinosaurs which were not discovered until many years after the stones were discovered. For instance, at the time of the discovery, Sauropods were not depicted with dermal spines. Stephen Czerkas discovery of dermal spines on sauropods in 1992 gave them a “new look” which had already been depicted on ancient artifacts. 3)The surest way not to sell a faked pre Columbian ancient artifact is to place a dinosaur or an Egyptian on it..

Dr. Requena’s Dinosaurs


Prior to the 1944 and 1966 discoveries of the Acambaro and Ica artifacts, respectively, an actual scientist, an anthropologist named Dr. Rafael Requena who was then affiliated with Academy of Physical and Mathematical Sciences, National Library, National Congress, Central University of Venezuela, discovered his own dinosaur and man artifacts.

I have a signed copy of his book (not to me) detailing the discovery of out of place artifacts at Lago Valencia in Venenzuela and of a new undiscovered ancient civilization there entitled; “Vestigios of Atlantida” (Remnants of Atlantis), published in 1932. I see that used copies of this book are still available for approximately $350.00.

According to the book and news reports about the discoveries, Requena claimed that Venezuela was the cradle of man’s civilization and that the ancient culture interacted with “prehistoric animals”. Among the prehistoric animals named as having been associated with this ancient culture was the diplodocus.

“Evidence that Venezuela was the cradle of civilization is offered in a volume on his archaeological discoveries which is being published by Dr. Rafael Requena, private secretary to President General Gomez. The publication of this book will lift the veil of secrecy which has shrouded Dr. Requena’s discoveries since they were announced briefly a year ago.


Most startling among the relics unearthed by Dr. Requena from the ancient tombs that dot the shores of Lake Valencia are images of pre-historic animals.

Among these, well sculptured in clay and kiln baked, are models of the diplodocus, a four footed monster with a goose-shaped body, surmounted by a dorsal fin, the neck of a giraffe and the jaws of a crocodile; a gliptodante, a squat four-footed beast with a hideous frog shaped head, bulging eyes and two rows of humps along its back; the prehistoric marine turtle and its equally great land-loving brother and carved from stone, the head of a hadrosaurus.

Alongside these relics were discovered the jaw bone of a dinosaur and pieces of the armor plate of the hadrosaurus…” New York Times June 5, 1932.

Dr. Requena’s discoveries were not declared fakes and his career was not ruined. Both the Ica Stones and the Acambaro figures suffered in the eyes of science because they had not been discovered by scientists-or so the said. The links that Requena made with Atlantis may seem crackpot to some today but were not viewed quite that way back in 1932.


Many of the artifacts of the ancient civilization he discovered can still be found on the internet. However, the dinosaurs have simply disappeared.

We do have his book and an opportunity to decide for ourselves whether or not this ancient civilization did in fact interact with dinosaurs.

I do note that even Requena approached the dinosaur angle of his discoveries with some caution. One would think that a discovery of dinosaur art among the remnants of this ancient civilization would have been the absolute focus of the discovery and that there would have been copious photographs of the “prehistoric animals” from every available angle.


Photo:Requena’s suaropod dinosaur from his 1932 book compared to a modern brachiosaurus model.

This was not the case; we do not have close-ups or multiple angles even though it appears that Requena was absolutely convinced that the depictions of dinosaurs were authentic. In fact, the dinosaurs are what convinced Requena that the ancient Venezuelans had to be a very ancient, advanced culture.

The photo above left shows that Requena’s sauropod compares favorably to a modern dinosaur model depicting a brachiosaurus.

Unfortunately, this is the only photographic angle shown in Requena’s book and in magazine articles announcing his discoveries. Clearly the ancient depiction is stylized to some extent. The artifact labeled number 40 in Requena’s book clearly it seems to me depicts a type of armored dinosaur like ankylosaur.


Ankylosauria are a group of herbivorous dinosaurs of the order Ornithischia. It includes the great majority of dinosaurs with armor in the form of bony osteoderms. Ankylosaurs were bulky quadrupeds, with short, powerful limbs. They are first known to have appeared in the early Jurassic Period of China, and persisted until the end of the Cretaceous Period. They have been found on every continent except Africa. …Wikipedia

These creatures supposedly became extinct at least 65 million years ago. The non-club tailed versions are known as nodosaurs although none of those have been reported to be found in South America.


On page 75 of the book Vestigios de la Atlantida are photographs of two “vases” which depict several animal figures. One of those figures is shown on the right. What quadruped has a neck frill like the one shown to the right? In our view, only a ceratopsian dinosaur would have this profile. Unfortunately, this is the only view and resolution that we have.

The case for a ceratopsian dinosaur is bolstered we believe by the fact that Requena says that prehistoric creatures were part of the experience of the Lago Valencia civilization.

There are certainly many types of ceratopsian dinosaurs and many different frill shapes. Shown here (above right) are several modern ceratopsian depictions from as close to the same angle as possible. Ceratopsian dinosaurs have not been found in South America (except for notoceratops) and they also are thought by science to have become extinct over 65 million years ago.


I’m calling the creature shown to the left the baby ceratops. It has a unique skull shape which doesn’t appear to comport with any known animal and along with its visible appendages make a ceratopsian dinosaur a possibility.

Ceratops does mean “horned face” after all. I’m not going to make a federal case out of this ID given the one angle, low relatively low resolution photo but provide a comparison photo for the reader’s amusement.

Metropolitan Museum of Art Horned Dinosaur with Front and Back Detail


Double-Chambered Whistling Bottle, 4th-7th century Ecuador; Bahia, Ceramic

This time we have a detailed, color photo showing the front and back of these creatures in detail. The curator has fallen back on the canard that these are simply lizards or are mythological creatures.

These creatures are tied by the use of ropes to sticks giving them the man dinosaur/interaction prize amont the dinosaurs we have reviewed for this article. Does one tie a mythological creature to a stick? From the Met’s decription:

“Double-chambered bottles were a common vessel form among the Bahia people of coastal Ecuador. The chambers, which were round and squat or tall and slender, as here, were joined at the bottom by a tube and at the top by a strap handle.


A single, narrow spout tops one of the chambers, while the other vessel serves as a base for modeled figurative sculptures.

On this bottle, two fantastic iguana-like creatures sit side by side at the top, their thick, long tails hanging down the side of the container. The iguanas wear necklaces and head crests; long streamers emerge from their open, fanged mouths; their bodies have dorsal crests and winglike elements projecting on the sides. The dull, bumpy surface of the animals, covered with light green pigment, contrasts with the smooth, burnished finish of the red-slipped chambers.

The hollow iguanas function as whistles, their several holes producing a sound when the liquid in the bottle is poured out. Iguanas or dragonlike creatures and serpents are frequent motifs in Bahia art and seem to have played an important role in local mythology.” …..Met Museum


I believe that these animals are related to ceratopsian dinosaurs as well. They have small neck frills and “nose bumps” similar to that of Leptoceratops or Cerasinops or other ceratopsian dinosaurs.

Note that what appears to be a single, horn projecting from their heads is revealed from the backside to be part of their headcrests or neck frills. Also note the armor over the lower body segment.

Sometimes ceratopsian dinosaurs are portrayed with this body split as has been done with the Lepto and the Cerasinops depictions above.


Leptoceratops is from North America.

A creature like Bradysaurus shown to the right with another version of Leptoceratops is another possibility. Bradysaurus is from South Africa. However, it was a pareiasaur which have been discovered on the continent. These are offered as examples of broad dinosaur types that compare favorably to the creatures depicted by the Ecuadorians.

 

Ancient South American Dinosaur Sacrifices?

Lambayeque Culture Toxodon Sacrafice? According to the Gardiner Museum:

“this is an exquisite example of a double-chambered figural bridge-spout whistling bottle of the Lambayeque Culture. It’s a moulded whistling vessel, the front is a square section and is surmounted by an animal , possibly being marked by two attendants, the back body is moulded in the form of a shell with –as you can see a tall tapering spout and a wide strap handle.

The whole item is painted in black, cream and reddish-brown, with areas of scroll, circular and geometric patterns. It’s from the Middle Horizon period, AD 100-300, of the Lambayeque culture of Peru.”

I think that it is entirely possible that this scene instead depicts “priests” readying a toxodon for sacrifice. Toxodons were among the most prolific types of fossils found in South America and supposedly lived down to 16,500 years ago. Coincidentally, Charles Darwin was among the first to collect fossils of this large animal.

From Wikipedia: “Toxodon is an extinct mammal of the late Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs about 2.6 million to 16,500 years ago. It was indigenous to South America, and was probably the most common large-hoofed mammal in South America at the time of its existence.

Toxodon was about 2.7 metres (8.9 ft) in body length, with an estimated weight up to 1500 kg and about 1.5 metres (4.9 ft) high at the shoulder and resembled a heavy rhinoceros, with a short and vaguely hippopotamus-like head.”

I think that this animal is the right size and has the beaked mouth and other features that make toxodon a possible identification for the creature being depicted here. It seems unlikely that this kind of detail and this kind of ritual would be depicted for only a mythological creature. Whatever this cretaure is it is likely a real creature it seems to me.

Chimu Culture Dinosaur Sacrifice? On the left is a Chimu Culture ceramic artifact from between 1100 A.D. to 1400 A.D. The source is the emuseum.mankato.

From: emuseum.mankato “The Chimu civilization lasted from 1100 AD to the late 1400′s AD. The Chimu state was characterized by conquest and expansion periods of the late thirteenth and early fourteenth centuries. At one time, the Chimu empire encompassed 620 square miles. Minchancamon was the greediest and coincidentally the last leader of the Chimu state.

His quest for dominance, built on by his predecessors, resulted in the conquest of the Sican state to the north. In their quest for expansion, the Chimu encountered the Inca to the south.

The Chimu conflict with the Inca began in 1462, and the Inca eventually prevailed. The Inca conquered the Chimu state in 1475 – 1476.

Paleontologists say that man and dinosaurs missed each other by more than 65 million years. For this reason, they cannot accept that any art showing man interacting with a dinosaur is genuine.

If the piece is believed to be genuine, then it follows that whatever is being represented is not a dinosaur-no matter how apparent the resemblance.

Conversely, creationists, or more specifically, we here at s8int.com do believe that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the recent past and that therefore, ancient art will be found which proves that this interaction took place.

For this reason, we are liable to see a “dinosaur” when in fact the animal is actually something less mysterious. We all have to deal with our biases.

I believe that it is reasonable to assert that this Chimu piece shows a man with a rope or a cloth tied around the neck of a juvenile dinosaur, which is either a pet or which is being prepared for sacrifice. We’ve identified the type of dinosaur as possibly a Maiasaura or an Iquanodon, two related dinosaurs. As usual, everyone is encouraged to make up his/her own mind.

 

Conclusion

The truth is; dinosaurs were created at the same time as all other living creatures. They were called dragons in scripture and were so known in most ancient cultures prior to the time that the huge creatures were given the name dinosauria around 1841 and the name dragon was driven by science into the mythological realm.

The ancient art in museums tell a different story however and that information is no longer available only to academics who may be beholden to the current paradigm or who certainly don’t want to go up against it.

At the current time, perhaps the dragon is still crouching and the dinosaur in modern times, still hidden, however, the truth will come out. As the Bible says;

“For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”….Luke 8

See Also:

Denial Is not Just a River in Egypt; Suppressed Human and Dinosaur Interactions in Nilotic Art

Three Cryptozoological Mysteries

When Really Giant Humans Left Their Imprints on the World

Human and Dinosaur Inner Actions-When Witnesses Got Eaten

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”

More on The Megalithic Rock Wall of Rockwall Texas; Aaron Judkins and Joe Taylor On Site

Church of Darwin, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Apr 16 2012


Aaron Judkins PhD of Man vs Archaeology wrote in a week or so ago to inform that he and Joe Taylor of the Mount Blanco Fossil Museum had made an on site investigation of the mysterious 25 square mile rock wall that gave Rockwall Texas its name. We had done a number of stories on the wall here at s8int.com.

Further, Aaron mentioned that he was going to be on a television program re his work on the subject of humans and dinosaurs; History Channels; Ancient Aliens. This is where we blew it! I din’t notice that it was to be on so soon; April 13th!

Aaron, my apologies. I was trying to figure out how I was going to pay my taxes.

Maybe Aaron will write back to let us know exactly how to catch the episode on History Channel; however the segment may be the one posted on Youtube;The Rock Wall, Man vs Archaeology with Aaron Judkins (XIndianaJones1), Season 1, Episode 7

The rockwall is a mysterious, ancient, largely buried 20 mile long (3.5 miles x 5.6 miles) wall near Rockwall Texas. Archeologists mostly consider the wall to be a natural formation. The information concerning the wall comes to us from old newspaper articles and those stories even contain references to giant human skulls. In the past few years there have been new investigations.

Aaron’s blog post about the site and the visit can be found here: Man vs Archeaeology-The Rock-Wall-Phenomenon

Denial Is Not Just A River In Egypt: Suppressed Evidence of Human, Dinosaur and Other “Extinct” Fauna Interaction in First Century Roman, Nilotic Art

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Mar 24 2012


By Chris Parker (Repost from s8int.com)

PART 1

PART II


Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

I was reminded of that little witticism this weekend. I left the downtown branch of the public library with a plan to stop by Raul’s for a super burrito, a burrito so large that Ive actually had to take a nap right there under one of Raul’s tables after polishing one off.

I was shocked to discover that Raul’s was no longer there. It had been replaced by a new sushi place.

Raul’s place had replaced a deli restaurant, which had in its turn replaced a pizza shop. I recall that some time ago it had been some kind of smoothie/coffee shop.

Only denial could explain why each new owner believed that his restaurant would succeed where all the others had failed-and why a bank would keep making loans at the location.

“Denial is the refusal to acknowledge the existence or severity of unpleasant external realities or internal thoughts and feelings.”(free Dictionary) Denial is the Lingua Franca of the human race and the state of denial is larger than the State of California.

When it comes to the issue of dinosaur and human co-existence, denial is also of course in operation. On the Christian side, some but not all have chosen to deny that dinosaurs even existed for fear that there existence might somehow discredit the Bible.

Materialists, rationalists, and/or Atheists similarly seek to discredit any evidence that proves or might tend to support the fact that dinosaurs and humans coexisted for fear that such proof might discredit evolutionary theory.

Palestrina Mosaic. CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION NILE MOSAIC IMAGE

In this article s8int.com will once again, (as weve tried to do on more than 50 pages of this section), provide visual evidence that dinosaurs and humans did in fact coexist; this time in the art of the 1st century. In this article we will seek to show that not just dinosaurs but that other fauna said by science to have become extinct millions of years ago were still living up to at least the time of the 1st century A.D.

I was in the library this week poring over literally thousands of pages of early Roman art, including the art of 1st century Pompeii. I spent this time in the library after spending weeks trying to find more copies and higher resolution photos of the pieces being presented here online.

If and when I did find them, in the great majority of cases the representations of the art had been cropped so that the offending details had been eliminated. Other companion works were often shown in their entirety and often in higher resolution, but these were not.

Although these art masterpieces should be easy to find, they are not.

As you look at the evidence s8int.com presents here, remember that the keepers of the evolutionary paradigm did everything overtly or subtlety possible to keep us from seeing them. That might tend to lend them additional credibility as evidence supporting interaction since there would be no need to surpress or deny information which does not threaten the paradigm.

The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina and the hunting mosaic from the House of the Physician are incredible works that should be well known to the public in their entirety, but if in fact they were well known, they would be very controversial with respect to the evolutionary timeline.

What we really wonder about is; with respect to the powers that be who conspire to keep this information out of the public eye, do they themselves manage to maintain the belief that dinosaurs and man never coexistedor is it just the great unwashed true believers out there who have the pure religion? Is the power of denial really that strong?

What we do know is that whatever we do stumble upon here at s8int.com or whatever anyone else discovers is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

The Nile is the longest river in the world, stretching northwards for approximately 4,000 miles from East Africa to the Mediterranean. In addition to Egypt, it flows through the African countries of Sudan, Burundi, Rwanda, DR Congo, Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, and Ethiopia,. Nilotic art like the first century Nile Mosaic of Palestrina detailed life along the Nile.

“The vast Nilotic mosaic (21.3 x 17.3 feet) set into the floor of the apsidal hall adjacent to the sanctuary of Fortuna Primigenia at Praeneste (Palestrina) provides important evidence for what Roman triumphal paintings using topographical conventions may have looked like.

On the mosaic, the Nile winds past vignettes representing exotic landscapes and settlements; the more recondite details are carefully labeled in Greek, underscoring the Alexandrian source of the genre. The precise nature of the relationship between the mosaic and cartographic practices is controversial.

Recently the Palestrina mosaic has been interpreted as an actual topographic map of the Nile: the upper part of the mosaic represents Ethiopia, the upper zone of the lower section represents Egypt, and the foreground represents the Delta, top to bottom understood as south to north, the standard convention for ancient maps.

More likely, however, the mosaic provides a large, coherent landscape composition of the Nile during the flood season, nevertheless dependent on topographical conventions”.( Meyboom )

Dinosaur Art From the House of the Physician-Mid First Century A.D.

“Pompeii is a ruined Roman city near modern Naples in the Italian region of Campania, in the territory of the commune of Pompei. It was destroyed during a catastrophic eruption of the volcano Mount Vesuvius on 24 August 79 AD.

The volcano buried the city under many metres of ash and it was lost for 1,600 years before its accidental rediscovery in 1748. Since then, its excavation has provided an extraordinarily detailed insight into the life of a city at the height of the Roman Empire”……Wikipedia

IMAGES: Both of the images on the left are from the “Hunt” mosaic discovered in the House of the physician in Pompeii, Rome.

When the images are discussed, it is within academia, not with the general public.

The apology given for the oversized reptiles is that they are simply nile crocodiles. This is not the case. As we will show, the crocodiles on these Nile works were rendered realistically and accurately as shown in this rendering from the Nile Mosaic on the right.

Note that in the image on the left, and in the complete mural below a man is battling a reptile taller than himself with a shield and a spear. Compare the man, the dinosaur and the building at the center of the image.

The creature on the right has a dermal ridge, unlike a crocodile but exactly like certain dinosaur types which might be safer to sit astride as we will explore below.

Hunt mosaic..

CLICK HERE FOR HIGH RESOLUTION MOSAIC IMAGE

Low stature, armored dinosaur comparison.
.

There are many armored dinosaur types that fit this reptile portrayal at least as well as the crocodile. Most of them had “low slung” bodies with heights of six feet high or less. One can make up his/her own mind but the hunter astride the reptile is between “plates” on its bck. In addition to the examples shown here, other candidates can be seen by following this link.

Another denial tactic is to label the dark skinned peoples in these mosaics as pygmies (to account for reptile towering over native). However, authorities on Roman art note that its not just blacks who are made dimunitve in Roman art but that it was a way of making the Romans seem superior.

African-Roman hercules

African-Roman Hero, Hercules. Fresco, Imperial Roman Pompeii.

Title: Hercules stands beside the enthroned Lydian Queen Omphale

Not only blacks were diminutive in the pieces, white or light skinned persons were dwarfed as well. As a matter of fact, Snowden, in his book “Before Color Prejudice” makes note of the eligaritan nature of the Roman civilization, and apparent lack of color discrimination, using examples from ancient Roman Art; many works showing scenes involving both dark skinned and light skinned citizens.

With respect to the three pieces found at the House of the Physician, all portray light skinned and dark skinned dwarves.

This includes “Judgment of Solomon”, (NOT SHOWN) which depicts the Jews as dwarfed and as both dark skinned and light skinned peoples.

The work below is also first century, from the House of the Physician at Pompeii.

Dinosaur Depiction on Roman Mosaic at Sepphoris?

From the Top of the Page: Detail from floor mosaic discovered at Sepphoris. This is a nilotic scene incorporated into the Dionysos Mosaic.

The mosaic is dated between the first and third centuries. A great earthquake destroyed Sepphoris in 363 A.D.

Note that here warriors/hunters battle the “large reptile” using shields and large rocks.