Archive for the ‘Dinosaurs in Literature’ Category

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2013


“When he raises himself up, the mighty are afraid; because of his crashings they are beside themselves.
Though the sword reaches him, it cannot avail; nor does spear, dart, or javelin. He regards iron as straw, and bronze as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee; slingstones become like stubble to him. Darts are regarded as straw; He laughs at the threat of javelins.” Job 41 NKJV

           

Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

by Chris Parker
Copyright 2013 C. Parker & S8int.com
Most Recent Prior Article on this topic; No Your Dinosaurs….

Good afternoon.

Dr. Ernst Mayr was a “leading” evolutionary biologist whose work provided a basis for what is known as the “modern synthesis” which is an amalgamation of Darwinian evolution theory and genetics. His work also provided the basis for Niles Eldredge’s and Stephen Jay Gould’s co theory of “punctuated equilibrium” –proposed because those biologists really did believe that “the extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology.”

Following Mayr’s lead they proposed that speciation could take place rapidly in small, isolated groups—where massive evolutionary leaps took place-making transitional fossils difficult to find because they would not exist. In that way they sought to solve a problem that most evolution believing laity don’t even know exists.

This same kind of ‘thought science” wherein motivated materialists scientists create interesting theories to solve or explain away “problems” with Materialist science is performed by; big bang cosmologists with their invisible dark matter and energy and, of course by other physicists who promote string theory (invisible, infinite universes) to explain the amazingly anthropic (man and life friendly) nature of this universe.

But back to Dr. Ernest Mayr; in a debate with Dr. Duane Gish in 1984, Dr. Mayr then a leading voice among evolutionists said the following:

“…creationists have stated that humans and dinosaurs were contemporaries in time…Were this momentous statement true the names of its discoverers would thunder down the corridors of time as individuals who made one of the most outstanding discoveries of the twentieth century.”

No doubt, based on his statement Dr. Mayr, who died in 2005, was extremely certain that there were tens of millions of years standing between man and dinosaurs.

As a leading evolutionist and as one upon whose work much of the modern synthesis and neo Darwinism was built he well understood the havoc that would be wrought on materialist beliefs regarding the descent of species and the evolutionary and geological timelines if it could be proved that man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

Nevertheless our plan here at s8int.com today is to prove that Mayr’s “thundering down the corridors of time” should have begun even if this is now the 21st Century.

Toe-tally

The current evolutionary thinking regarding the manus and pes (hands and feet) of dinosaurs is that the fossils found with five fingers and toes are the most ancient dinosaurs and that through evolutionary change more “modern” dinosaurs evolved to have fewer fingers and toes.

This is the same kind of “logic” and thought used to assist in forming the well known but fact free horse evolutionary sequence. One might well wonder why fewer fingers and toes would be considered an evolutionary advancement? Is it a case of “I cried because I had no one finger gloves until I met a man with five fingers”?

Dr. Niles Eldredge, (mentioned above re: punctuated equilibrium) a curator at the American Museum in New York– where by the way the horse evolution series is still being shown said the following:

“There have been an awful lot of stories, some more imaginative than others, about what the nature of that history [of life] really is. The most famous example, still on exhibit downstairs, is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps fifty years ago. That has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that is lamentable, particularly when the people who propose those kinds of stories may themselves be aware of the speculative nature of some of that stuff.” ……Harper’s Magazine, 1985, p60.

The very masculine named Boyce Rensberger, science writer and evolutionist said the following regarding the famous horse series and its accompanying toe-tally ridiculous evolutionary assumptions:

“The popularly told example of horse evolution, suggesting a gradual sequence of changes from four-toed fox-sized creatures living nearly 50 million years ago to today’s much larger one-toed horse, has long been known to be wrong. Instead of gradual change, fossils of each intermediate species appear fully distinct, persist unchanged, and then become extinct. Transitional forms are unknown” . Boyce Rensberger: Houston Chronicle, 5 Nov. 1980, sec. 4, p. 15.

Today it is only high school biology textbook writers and the evolution accepting laity who do not know that the evolutionary horse sequence, a supposed “proof” of the reality of biological evolution is wrong and is not actually supported by the fossil evidence. The same thing will eventually be found to be true of dinosaurs as well.

The dinosaur that we will look at today would have been one of the older dinosaurs according to evolutionary theory making its appearance in pre Columbian art even more of an upset. The other example which will be provided herein today is from a creature said by evolutionists to have lived even before the dinosaurs.

Let’s begin with the thundering down the corridors of time, already.

“265 Million Year Old” Therapsid Pre-Dinosaurs Carved Upon the Roof of the 1300 Year Old Kailashnath Temple (Ellora Caves)

Photo: Suresh.G.Isave – Roof of Kailas Temple, Ellora Caves,India



“Kailashnath Temple, also Kailash or Kail?sa or Kailasanath Temple, is a famous temple, one of the 34 monasteries and temples known collectively as the Ellora Caves, extending over more than 2 km, that were dug side by side in the wall of a high basalt cliff in the complex located at Ellora, Maharashtra, India.

Of these, the Kailasa (cave 16) is a remarkable example of Dravidian architecture on account of its striking proportion; elaborate workmanship architectural content and sculptural ornamentation of rock-cut architecture. It is designed to recall Mount Kailash, the abode of Lord Shiva. It is a megalith carved out of one single rock. It was built in the 8th century by the Rashtrakuta king Krishna I.” ….Wikipedia


Perhaps it is fitting to first look at an absolute dead, lock three dimensional sculpture of four therapsids atop the roof of the Temple at Kailashnath built around the 8th century A.D. Fitting to look at them first because evolutionists believe that they preceded the dinosaurs. Therapsida are a group of synapsids, which supposedly include mammals and their ancestors in the evolutionary scheme. Therapsid dicynodonts appeared on every continent.

These creatures are said by evolutionists to have appeared prior to the evolution of mammals and dinosaurs. We’ll consider the dinosaur “proof” as a second case study.

For comparison purposes we are showing the Ellora “lions” juxtaposed with Moschops, a specific therapsid (perhaps the most well known) whose fossils have been found primarily in South Africa.

As you can see there is a very close resemblance between the modern depictions of a therapsid and the ancient “lions” on the roof of the temple complex. The skull shape and other morphological characteristics, including the bent elbows, body shape etc. make therapsid a good initial identification.

By the way lions do have five toes/fingers on their front paws but the fifth is technically on the wrist and does not make contact with the ground. They do not really look like lions but they do have manes and there was no other ready identification or so it seems. They certainly were not ever going to be identified as therapsids.

In point of fact we have already looked at these creatures and identified them crypto-zoo-archaeologically as representations of dinocephalians like Moschops. What’s diiferent today is that the hands of these animals–God’s creatures are upon us. That is, we found a photo of them with significant enough resolution for us to be able to look at the morphological characteristics of the ancient artists depictions of their manus and pes (hands and feet).

The graphic/photo leading this section is a comparison of the “Ellora Lions” with a depiction of Moschops (top left).
The photo following right conclusively concurs with the therapsid identification. The hands (front feet) of therapsids such as moschops was quite unusual. They had tree-trunk like legs with five toes dispersed around in a semi-circle–exactly what we can clearly see in the combo photos comparing moschops front feet with that of the Ellora lions. In fact the similarities are uncanny, unmistakable and undeniable! These are not lions-they are therapsids very similar to moschops.


If therapsids were depicted 1300 years ago on the roof of the Ellora Cave complex then we need not give credence to evolutionist’s beliefs regarding when these creatures became extinct, what creatures allegedly evolved from which or even what their geological boundaries presumably were.

If the scientific understanding regarding when these creatures lived is off by 250 million years how can one credit anything else science would have to say concerning therapsids?

If you want to recreate this “proof” for yourself, I suggest the following: 1) “Google” or “Bing” search for, “Moschops” and then look at images. Pull down a few images of Moschops that you find expressive of what the creature may have looked like in the view of modern artists.

2)Pull up those photos in a photo editing program. 3)Google image search :”Ellora Caves, roof” or “Kailashnath Temple roof” until you find several showing the “lions”. 4)Download or copy some of those pictures and compare in your photo editing program with Moschops. You should see some very strong similarities between the two sets because the creatures on the roof are in fact therapsids—supposedly extinct tens and tens of millions of years ago.

Next, as an additional “proof” go back to Google and do an image search of Moschops, “feet”, or Moschops “manus” (hands). With a little persistence you will find a drawing or a photo which shows the tree trunk like front legs with five fingers distributed like rose petals in a semi circle around the legs. The toes of this creature are unusual in their shape and distribution and this pattern will be easy to recognize when seen again.

Go back to Google (or Bing) and find a very high resolution of the lion’s feet from the roof of the Ellora complex. This result will be instantly recognizable and conclusive. These creatures can be seen from virtually every angle in various online photographs. The “lions” of the Ellora Caves have all the morphological features of a therapsid dicynodont.

It wouldn’t be that easy to lose 250 million years overnight I’m sure. Darwinists claim that this creature was a mammal-like reptile but given its mammal like external ears and hair perhaps it was a mammal- a fact which in and of itself would destroy the evolution tree.

Photo: Anteosaurus is a therapsid whose fossil’s have been found in India.


Coelacanth aside Darwinists could not possibly be this wrong– you might reason. If after looking at these photos you are still not convinced that the same creature that is represented online as a therapsid dicynodont is the same creature with the same matching manus and pes (hands and feet)and not a bit of doubt was created then you might want to consider the following:

Your belief in the Darwinian system and all its attendant precepts, corollaries, speculations and just so stories may not be evidenced based. Perhaps your belief in this system is “faith” based after all and there is no “evidence” pro or con which could persuade you that man and dinosaur ever co-existed or that the “extreme rarity of transitional fossils persists as the trade secret of paleontology”.

You may be a “true believer”?

           

700 Year Old Plumbate Vessel Features A Dinosaur with Hands and Feet Clearly Depicted


“Regarding the timing of this vessel, Garduño said that this is late-characterized by its decorative variant cutaway designs are distinguished by their angular strokes a stiff-pot Iguanas Polychrome type, which is one of the components ceramic diagnostics Ixcuintla cultural phase (1100-1350 AD), Middle Postclassic, which represents the later stage in the long sequence of regional development Aztatlán culture.

This is extremely significant if we consider that the leading specialists in the study of iconic ceramic codex type Mixteca-Puebla style, agree that this appeared in the central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) during the Late Postclassic (1250-1521 AD), and even at a later date to 1300 AD in the Oaxacan Mixteca”.. Source:Puerta Norte Acaponeta http://elblogpuertanorte.blogspot.com/2013/05/recupera-el-centro-inah-nayarit.html

Photo: iguanodon with “Hands”


Plumbate ware was manufactured by the ancient Toltecs and is found all around Central America. It was quite frequently orange in color or glossy with incised art.

I have looked at quite a number of pieces of pre Columbian art. Upon initial inspection (FIG 1)I thought that it was perhaps the head of a dinosaur projecting from the vessel but like a number of those pieces that we’ve examined on s8int.com, I wondered if it would be convincing to the true believers or rather the true Unbelievers.


Then as I examined the incision I noticed that it appeared to have elbows and a hand with a number of fingers–with a particularly prominent thumb or possibly a thumb claw. Noting the teeth I thought it most probably a meat-eater and so set to work researching dinosaur fingers and toes etc.. Of course I also initially looked at the dinosaurs of Central and South America.



Dinosaurs with five fingers (or so it appears to have) with the teeth of a theropod dinosaur are supposed to be some of the oldest dinosaurs. “Basal theropods”-and of course I believe in no such thing.. and other dinosaurs with five or four fingers (the depiction appears to be five fingers with only the knuckle of one of the fingers showing) include certain theropods, famously, iguanosaurus and plateosaurus. FIG 2 shows a comparison between the hand of plateosaurus, left, the “hand” of the artifact, center and iguanosaurus, right. Baryonx, a European dinosaur with South American “cousins” in the spinosaurid family is shown in the photo at the top of this article due to its prominent thumb claw- similar to that depicted on the plumbate artifact. FIG 2A shows the upturned hand of the artifact compared with the upturned hand of iguanosaurus with his well known thumb claw.

“The most primitive dinosaurs in the famous theropod group (that later included Tyrannosaurus rex) had five “fingers.” Later theropods had three…” Live Science


After quite a bit of research I was able to find an additional photograph of this artifact and thus was able to see in some detail the artist’s rendering of both the hands and feet of the animal depicted. These fingers and toes make it a certainty that it is a dinosaur that is being depicted by the artist and even provides clues as to the specific species of dinosaur that the artist was able to interact with.



The complete thoroughness of the artist’s rendition of this dinosaur indicates that he/she was familiar with this creature and that he/she had specific morphological knowledge of how the creature moved and how it looked. The dinosaur being depicted is apparently bi-pedal and the artist’s sculpture of how that creature moved is exactly how modern artists might have depicted a bi-pedal dinosaur.

The new photo shows the creature from the other side. What’s clear is that what we are looking at on the other side is a five, possibly four fingered dinosaur hand. The two sides are not identical and the new photo provides details of the elbow, the hand, and the rear feet (See FIG 6). It appears from this side that the hand is represented as three extended fingers and two knuckles.



I believe that the creature’s reptilian head and aspect along with its meat eating dinosaur teeth if I may– comfortably place it in the dinosaur realm for those with open minds.

Spend a few minutes Googling iguana hands or lizard hands as well as the hands of dinosaurs and the conclusion will be all but inescapable. In the end I’ve moved away from the iguanodon identification because of the teeth of this dinosaur. The teeth are of different sizes with very large teeth at the front. A dinosaur that meets the qualifications of being a meat eater, with five fingers and heterodontal (different sized) (See FIG 7) teeth with relatives found in South America is the heterodontosaurus.

Photo: Plumbate dinosaur depiction compared to skeleton of heterodontosaurus FIG 5.



Heterodontosauridae (“different-toothed lizards”) is a family of early ornithischian dinosaurs that were likely among the most basal (primitive) members of the group. Although their fossils are rare, they lived around the globe beginning in the late Triassic Period, and a few late-surviving species persisted into the Early Cretaceous.

Heterodontosaurids were fox-sized dinosaurs less than 2 meters (6.6 ft) in length, including a long tail. They are known mainly for their characteristic teeth, including enlarged canine-like tusks and cheek teeth adapted for chewing, analogous to those of Cretaceous hadrosaurids. Their diet was herbivorous or possibly omnivorous.

Manidens is a genus of heterodontosaurid dinosaur from the Middle Jurassic of Patagonia. Fossils have been found from the Cañadon Asfalto Formation in Chubut Province, Argentina, dating to the Bajocian…Wikipedia



In the next few slides we compare the ancient, pre Columbian artifact with Ceratosaurus and Herrerasaurus. Ceratosaurus because it is a “basal” theropod with an interesting fingers that also had some interesting “head” features such as a snout horn and other protuberances on its head which might incline one to consider it as the animal being depicted. However, assuming that the artist had an actual creature in mind, the teeth did not appear to match.

On the whole though I believe that the ceratosaurus depiction assists us in seeing how close the ancient depiction is to that of modern dinosaur depictions.

The other depiction is of Herrerasaurus. Herrerasaurus had claws similar to those of the plateosaurus above (FIG 2).

Herrerasaurus was given the name “Herrera lizard” because it was found by an Andean goat farmer named Victorino Herrera…Wikipedia.

Photo: Artifact compared to Heterodontosaurus.



The ancient artifact from central highlands of Mexico (Cholula) was likely manufactured 600 t0 700 years ago during the Late Postclassic period between (1250-1521 AD. The artist clearly represented the hands, fingers, head, dentition and rear feet of a bi-pedal dinosaur which had to be living at the time. It was a dinosaur (animal) that he was very familiar with. We can match the fingers and toes with several species of dinosaur though we will admit that a final identification as to species is inconclusive. A dinosaur identification is however; conclusive.

In his review of Carl Sagan’s last book in his review entitled “Billions and Billions of Demons”, Harvard university evolutionist Richard Lewontin said the following.

“Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. ”

One can select more than one response in the Poll below.

Convinced that Man and Dinosaur Lived Together?

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I love that quote because it is so honest. Never mind the scientific process we take these positions because we refuse A priori to believe in God or in anything which would tend to prove that God exists. Unfortunately for Lewontin et. al., they have not succeeded. The “Divine foot” has always been completely through the door.

The evidence demonstrated by these two artifacts shows that never mind the Divine Foot, Lewontin et. al.,- the hand of God’s dinosaur is upon thee as is the whole creation.

No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody!
Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody.

Amusing?, Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 19 2013


Isaiah 35:7
“And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water; in the habitation of dragons, where each lay, shall be grass with reeds and rushes.”

           
“No Your Dinosaurs! Who Knows for Certain What Dinosaurs Actually Looked Like? Nobody! Except Perhaps the Eyewitnesses Responsible for the Ancient Dinosaur Art at the Peabody”. by Chris Parker, s8int.com
           

Before you vote; See the follow up to this article Holding On to the Faith of Darwin Though the Hand of God’s Dinosaurs Be Upon Thee

Did Ancient Artists See and Memorialize Dinosaurs In Their Art?

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Prologue

In the movie; “The Princess Bride” an important character, Inigo has a conversation with the man in black during a sword fight and that conversation has become a trope in television and movies (convention or device used in creative works). The conversation goes something like this:

Inigo: “I admit it: you are better than I am!”
Man in Black: “Then why are you smiling?”
Inigo: “Because I know something you don’t know.”
Man in Black: “And what is that?”
Inigo: “I AM NOT LEFT HANDED” [Switches the sword to his right hand and starts driving him back]

I sometimes have the feeling that I am in Inigo’s position when I find myself in a conversation with someone about man and dinosaurs living at the same time.

“You believe that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time within the last 10,000 years they’ll say incredulously”? Or perhaps they’ll say it sneeringly, or contemptuously or in some rare cases even sadly or compassionately.

They are quite certain that they have the upper hand, the science, the good sense, the pure knowledge the unmitigated certainty. They slap their foreheads. They roll their eyes. All that. They believe that they are winning this “fight”-discussion-debate because-come on! They may even be fellow believers.

They’re thinking that I have set science aside for some kind of blind faith belief in what science has said is impossible-for the sake of the Bible. They’re thinking I’m living in some anti-science anti-evidence bubble. However, as a Christian I have choices. I could believe as some Christian’s do that God created through evolution and that man and dinosaur did miss each other by millions of years.

I could believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and thus man and dinosaur barely met. I could believe as some Christians do that God sent unbelievers a strong delusion because of their unbelief (Romans 1) and simply put the bones of animals that never existed in the ground in order to further delude them.

I could simply choose not to speak when this topic is raised thinking that as a Christian it is outside of my pay grade, that the answers are unknowable. I could choose to be cowed by the sheer numbers of people who unblinkingly accept the current paradigm.

Caption: The Real Postosuchus? See Below

But I know something they don’t know. I took a fact based approach. I went where the evidence took me and in this internet age the truth can be found. Many non-Christians don’t know that faith is supposed to be built- not on nothing as they assume—but on evidence. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb 1:1

I have spent a lot of time sifting through the evidence in ancient history, the work of ancient “biologists” the articles in old newspapers and recently the evidence in world famous archaeological museums. The evidence is clear. The evidence is persuasive.

The evidence proves that dinosaurs and man lived together all over the world in the last few thousand years. Now, the Bible is a “type” of sword and in this dinosaur and man conversation we’re having they are the ones who don’t have the facts or the truth. There is a reason why I am smiling:– I AM NOT LEFT HANDED!

Peabody Museum Zoomorphic Stone Heads

Historians say that dragons appear in the history and art of virtually every ancient culture (as do stories of a great flood). Here’s an interesting fact along those lines; no matter what culture a piece of ancient art comes from everyone can instantly recognize a dragon. Isn’t that interesting? Here we have a supposedly completely mythological creature, a product of the imagination of man and culture and yet they agree across geography and time in the salient characteristics of their portrayals with the added peculiarity that everyone knows that they are dragons?

No modern artist who works for a science journal or a museum or is otherwise engaged in depicting dinosaurs from a few bones is going to draw a dragon-like creature. So, although dragons are reptilian, frightening sometimes preternaturally large creatures—and so are dinosaurs they don’t often look much alike when you get down to the details. But here’s the rub when it comes to that; no one living actually knows what dinosaurs looked like.

In prior articles on this topic we’ve often quoted Discover Magazine on this point;

There’s a running joke among professional dinosaur artists that goes like this: Given just an elephant skeleton, they’d probably render a titanic hamster. Does anyone know what dinosaurs really looked like? Sure we do. We see them everywhere, not just in the museums, but in magazines, movies, even in value meals at McDonald’s. But all of these lifelike renderings are mostly artistic interpretations based on very sparse scientific evidence. Discover Magazine, What Did Dinosaurs Really Look Like? By William Speed Weed, Christopher Griffith|Friday, September 01, 2000

http://discovermagazine.com/2000/sep/featdino

Of course, Discover Magazine isn’t the only source that admits that science is just guessing when it puts forth a drawing or illustration of a dinosaur—particularly when many dinosaurs are only known from a few bones.

A new book entitled “All Yesterdays: Unique and Speculative Views of Dinosaurs and Other Prehistoric Animals” by paleo artists C.M Koseman and John Conway is a review of dinosaur depictions and misconceptions in science art and a speculation about potential alternate depictions. They are basically letting the reader in on their secret that the work they do is simply informed speculation.


In the photo on the right they freely speculate on how a dinosaur paleontologist might have interpreted the bones (absent muscle and soft parts) of the cow and the housecat (bottom).

This interpretation problem makes it tougher on “crypto-zoo-archaeologists” like me. My hypothesis that man and dinosaur lived during the same age and that the ancient peoples would have left evidence in the form of their art, history and artifacts is complicated by the fact that the work of paleo artists today might not match up with the work of the actual eyewitnesses living in the past.

Thus, for instance a dinosaur in an archaeological museum like Harvard’s Peabody Museum might be perfectly depicted by the ancient artist but not match up with current thinking on how that dinosaur looked and go unrecognized; categorized as zoomorphic, unknown, animal, mythological creature or simply reptile. (Actually my experience is that any depiction recognizable as a dinosaur or one which is deemed too close does not end up in the front room of the museum in any case).

For example, in eyewitness viewings of what I believe are living pterosaurs over the last few years some have described the creature the saw as “almost prehistoric looking”, which could mean that they saw a living creature that did not completely comport with modern illustrations of the creature.

Moche Culture Vase in the Form of…?

In the last few weeks I set out to prove my hypothesis at the Harvard Peabody, online archaeological museum site as well as at other online collection sites. The Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology at Harvard University “is steward to one of the oldest and largest collections of cultural objects in the Western Hemisphere”. Other online collections visited include, the Penn Museum, the Met and several Museums of Central and South America.

Could it be shown that creatures that are recognizable as dinosaurs and Not dragons-in the mythological sense are somehow going unnoticed in their online collections? Can we show how specific types of dinosaurs might have been erroneously depicted? In that case, the depiction would have to be close enough for an identification to be made.

In this article and shall we say “collection” I intend to show once again through the arts of ancient peoples that man and dinosaur lived together within the last 5,000 years—but only to the fair and open minded.

           
The Eyewitness to Recent, Ancient History Dinosaur Collection, Part 1

1)Chasmosaurus at the Museo Larco, Peru


Actually it is not a piece from the Peabody that I wish to start with. It is a piece from the Museo Larco that illustrates the points we have been making about identification and misidentification most clearly. (See complete vessel at top of this article).

The Larco Museum (Spanish: Museo Arqueológico Rafael Larco Herrera) is a privately owned museum of pre-Columbian art, located in the Pueblo Libre District of Lima, Peru. The museum is housed in an 18th-century vice-royal building built over a 7th-century pre-Columbian pyramid.

The Inca civilization spanned the period of 1438 to 1533 in pre-Columbian South America. That would make this piece between 500 to 600 years old.

Inca Pot Water Carrier Lima
Museo Larco, Peru

I believe that the animal atop this Inca water carrier (and atop this article) is a ceratopsian dinosaur of a type similar to Chasmosaurus particularly given the placement of its horn and the shape of its frill. Ceratopsians might have broken down neatly into the categories now suggested by science or they could have been as widely divergent as dogs are today. They may have been sexually dimorphic and animals identified as belonging to another species may have only been sexually dimorphic or juvenile versions of other science-identified species.

“Chasmosaurus (/?kæzm??s?r?s/ KAZ-mo-SAWR-?s) is a genus of ceratopsid dinosaur from the Upper Cretaceous Period of North America. Its name means ‘opening lizard’, referring to the large openings (fenestrae) in its frill (Greek chasma meaning ‘opening’ or ‘hollow’ or ‘gulf’ and sauros meaning ‘lizard’). With a length of 4–5 metres (13–16 ft) and a weight of 2 tonnes (2.2 short tons), Chasmosaurus was a ceratopsian of average size. Like all ceratopsians, it was purely herbivorous. It was initially to be called Protorosaurus, but this name had been previously published for another animal.

All specimens of Chasmosaurus were collected from the Dinosaur Park Formation of the Dinosaur Provincial Park of Alberta, Canada. C. russelli comes from the lower beds of the formation while C. belli comes from middle and upper beds. “…Wikipedia


Let me explain what I believe that you’re looking at. It is a ceratopsian dinosaur similar to the Chasmosaurus. It is 500 years old. The right horn has broken off and is probably what is seen on the animal’s right side from the reader’s perspective.

The heavy ceratopsian tail curls up at the back and the animal fits in terms of body shape and tail for a ceratopsian. The animal has a crest and you should be able to see that the complete head, ending behind the horns includes a solid neck frill ending in a ‘V” shape similar to that of the chasmosaurus. In the photo on the left I have thoughtfully replaced the animals missing horn. The artist took pains to make sure that the ceratopsian toes were outlined for the viewer as well.

I believe what we have here is a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur that differs slightly from what one expects given modern depictions. The beak is slightly less pronounced-but evident. The horns are actually in the exact place on its head as the horns on modern Chasmosaurus depictions. The creature has growths (possibly pre-horn?) growths on the front of its face that are not seen on ceratopsian depictions.

This is clearly a depiction of a ceratopsian dinosaur by an actual eyewitness some 500 years ago in pre Columbian South America. It should be noted that all the ceratopsia were supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

2)Peabody Museum ”6,000 to 7,000 Year Old” Ceramic Bottle with Bi-Pedal Dinosaur (Iguanodon?) from South America

“Peabody Number: 90-27-30/54866
Display Title: Black ware stirrup spouted vase
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic bottle, stirrup spout, chipped rim, animal effigy, molded body, lying on its side.
Classification:
Stirrup spout
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru
Materials: Ceramic


The earliest ceramics known from the Americas have been found in the lower Amazon Basin. Ceramics from the Caverna de Pedra Pintada, near Santarém, Brazil, have been dated to 7,500 to 5,000 years ago. Ceramics from Taperinha, also near Santarém, have been dated to 7,000 to 6,000 years ago.” Peabody Museum

This appears to me quite clearly to represent some type of bi-pedal theropod dinosaur. Here we show the artifact on its side so that the identification of this dinosaur is more easily made.
The trio below is shown with two versions of the dinosaur iguanodon, a bi-pedal dinosaur which has been found in North America.

Distinctive features of iguanodon include large thumb spikes, which were possibly used for defence against predators, combined with long prehensile fifth fingers able to forage for food…Wikipedia.

Unfortunately that part of the sculpture has been worn away-like noses in Egyptian artifacts. Part of the tail has apparently broken off as well. I believe that this piece represents a bi pedal theropod dinosaur like iguanodon or a relative.

           

3)Postosuchus Sculpted by Pre Columbians From the Period AD 500-1350 at The Walters Art Museum?
The creature displayed at the top of the pre Columbian incense burner could be called a dragon, a crocodilian (the museum I.D.) or a mythical creature–but no one who believes that dinosaurs and their alleged ancestors died out more than 65 million years ago would ever think of this as a recently extinct, living creature.

Taking that point of view it is easy to ignore the reptilian/dinosaur like armor, the teeth which no lizard ever sported and the distinct horns. In looking at the creature carefully with the assumption that a living creature was being depicted a tentative crypto-zoo-archaeological identification is that of an archosaur like postosuchus.


Postosuchus, meaning “crocodile from Post”, is an extinct genus of rauisuchian reptiles…Postosuchus is a member of the clade Pseudosuchia, the lineage of archosaurs that includes modern crocodilians (the other main group of archosaurs is Avemetatarsalia, the lineage that includes non-avian dinosaurs and their descendants, birds). Its name refers to Post Quarry, a place in Texas where many fossils of the type species, P. kirkpatricki, were found…

Although the heavy build of the skeleton suggests that Postosuchus walked on all four limbs, the extreme shortness of the forelimbs relative to the hind limbs is a strong indication that Postosuchus was able to walk on two legs…Postosuchus possessed heterodonty dentition, which means each tooth was different in size and shape from the others.

A feature of the skull of postosuchus is a “crest” over each eye. Modern artists have had to decide how to draw or illustrate that skull feature and most have not significantly featured them. This piece from the Walters Art Museum has “eye crests” like those of postosuchus which are more clearly featured as crests above each eye.

In other pieces we’ve noted the three toes of a depiction which were similar to dinosaur toes. Postosuchus actually had a different manus and pes than did the dinosaurs. In the minds of scientists postosuchus and its relatives actually preceded the dinosaurs. Of course, most creationists believe that they lived at the same time.


The Museum Description: This incense burner is topped with the portrayal of a caiman or other member of the Crocodylidae family, one of the frequent animal spirit forms of Central American shamans. Its particularly aggressive stance may refer to the practitioner’s battle against supernatural forces.

Many such incense burners were found ritually broken on the slopes of a principal volcano on the island of Ometepe in Lake Nicaragua, the incense burner lid with its smoke issuing from the top mimicking an active volcano.


Among peoples from southern Nicaragua to Mesoamerica the earth was likened to the back of a crocodile floating in the primordial sea, its dorsal scutes being the volcanic north-south backbone that defines the continents of the Western Hemisphere. This incense burner, then, constitutes a profound ritual vessel pertaining to the transition from the natural to the supernatural realms and a symbolic model of the ancient Costa Rican world.


Uh, huh. That’s pretty complicated. Maybe it’s just a depiction of some exceptional local fauna of the time; an or perhaps a small dinosaur of unknown type. Certainly if this same depiction appeared on a site featuring artists renditions of dinosaurs this piece would not be out of place.

The photos above show comparisons of the ancient art work with modern depictions of postosuchus (without the strong “crests” and body armor and in comparison to the skull and the full skeleton of postosuchus. The comparisons appear to me to show a similarity of this depiction with that of one of the archosaurs–such as postosuchus. The feet are not those of a dinosaurs (many are three toed) but the feet of the animal depicted do correspond to that of our identification.

           

4)Nayarit Chinesco “Embryonic Dog” May Be Baby Sauropod


Nayarit is a state in western Mexico. The Nayarit culture from which this artifact comes is from the period 300 B.C. to 400 A.D.—or even older. This piece is said to represent an embryonic dog. Another identification would seem to be in order for this piece.

           
For one thing, dogs do not have necks this long. Here I’ve shown it in comparison to an animal that really did have such a long neck; the sauropod dinosaur.

Nayarit Chinesco Pottery Painted Embryonic Dog
Online Collections Auction
Auction date November 2012
Pre-Columbian, West Mexico, Ca. 300 BC to 200 AD.
Buff pottery, unique representation, elastic form.
Surface has traces of original polychrome color.
Provenance: Ex-Dr. R. Boyd Stifler, Vanderwagen NM.
Rare specimen Authenticity Guaranteed
Condition:Some wear to surface and with nice dendrite
deposits.”..Online Collections

Recently a sauropod embryo was found and the sauropod embryo depicted comes from the “Tiniest Giants: Discovering Dinosaur Eggs”.

Sauropods are supposed to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

           

5)Ancient Pueblo Culture (1200 B.C.-1500 A.D.) Native Americans of What is Now Arizona Craft Dinosaur Named Aetosaur; Most of Whose Fossils Have Been Found in Arizona

           
Aetosaur Skeleton Top and Ancient Pueblo Artifact below.


“The Pueblo people are Native American people in the Southwestern United States comprising several different language groups and two major cultural divisions, one organized by matrilineal kinship systems and the other having a patrilineal system.

These determine the clan membership of children, and lines of inheritance and descent. Their traditional economy is based on agriculture and trade. At the time of Spanish encounter in the 16th century, they were living in villages that the Spanish called pueblos, meaning “towns””…Wikipedia

This piece comes from a 1936 expedition to the Hopi reservation and was determined to be from one of the Pueblo Native American cultures. It is described by the Peabody Museum as “zoomorphic”. Looking at a list of dinosaur fossils found in Arizona one can quickly see that there is a similarity between the archaeological piece and –the aetosaur. (Angle of aetosaur skeleton head adjusted for comparison purposes.)

“Aetosaurs order name Aetosauria from Greek, ????? (aetos, “eagle”) and ?????? (sauros, “lizard”)) are an extinct order of heavily armoured, medium- to large-sized Late Triassic herbivorous archosaurs. They have small heads, upturned snouts, erect limbs, and a body covered by plate-like scutes. All aetosaurs belong to the family Stagonolepididae.

Most fossils have been found from Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas…Wikipedia

.

Here is a sobering fact for those of us who can accept the fact that the ancient Pueblo people of Arizona actually saw and depicted an aetosaur which supposedly lived from 200 million years ago becoming extinct 65 million years or more ago;


“Since their armoured plates are often preserved and are abundant in certain localities, aetosaurs serve as important Late Triassic tetrapod index fossils. Many aetosaurs had wide geographic ranges, but their stratigraphic ranges were relatively short. Therefore, the presence of particular aetosaurs can accurately date a site that they are found in.”

You see the problem? Aetosaurs were roaming around the North American continent during the span of the Pueblo peoples; 1200 B.C. to 1500 A.D. and one of their artists memorialized the aetosaur in ceramic.

Peabody Number: 36-131-10/8060
Display Title: Zooomorphic black on white potsherd–animal form
Inventory Description: Ceramic, zoomorphic figurine, with tail, opened mouth, two feet, black painted design on back and sides
Classification: Figurine
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Pueblo
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arizona/Navajo County/Hopi Reservation/Antelope Mesa/Awatovi
Intrasite: Test 14
Geo-Locale: Antelope Mesa
Materials: Ceramic Pigment
Provenance: Dr. John Otis Brew (1936)
Provenance: Peabody Museum Expedition (1936)

           
6) Crested Hadrosaur Depiction by the Ancient Peoples of Costa Rica at the Peabody Museum. (Modern Artists May Need to Put Some Weight on the Bones of these Depictions)

Crested Dinosaurs are fairly easy to recognize. Most of the crested dinosaurs are from the Lambeosaurinae of the hadrosaur group. The hadrosaurs were also known as the duck billed dinosaurs.


This depiction forms the legs of an ancient pottery piece. The pot is from Costa Rica, Central America. The crests on the various types of lambosaurines differed in size and shape even among the same species and they likely differed due to age and due to sexual dimorphism.

The hadrosaurs depicted have relatively small, round crests. Here we compare them to a number of known lambeosaurines including corythsaurus.


It is interesting that the depictions are clearly of the same animal but that the portraits differ. The ancient depictions are similar to modern ones except for the apparent weight of the creatures and the size of the eyes depicted.

“Archaeologists now know that civilization existed in Costa Rica for thousands of years before the arrival of Columbus, and evidence of human occupation in the region dates back 10,000 years. Among the cultural mysteries left behind by the area’s pre-Columbian inhabitants are thousands of perfectly spherical granite bolas that have been found near the west coast.


The sizes of these inimitable relics range from that of a baseball to that of a Volkswagen bus. Ruins of a large, ancient city complete with aqueducts were recently found east of San Jose, and some marvelously sophisticated gold and jade work was being wrought in the southwest as far back as 1,000 years ago. Some archeological sites in the central highlands and Nicoya peninsula have shown evidence of influence from the Mexican Olmec and Nahuatl civilizations.

By the time Columbus arrived, there were four major indigenous tribes living in Costa Rica. The east coast was the realm of the Caribs, while the Borucas, Chibchas, and Diquis resided in the southwest. “..geographia.com

Peabody Number: 26-44-20/C9956
Display Title: Small pottery vessel
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic complete tripod jar, zoomorphic rattle feet (1 missing)
Classification: Jar
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
Central America/Costa Rica

           

7)A New Look at Dicynodont Therapsids Like Moschop from the Ancient Peoples Living I Peru, South America


The identity of this animal portrait was unknown apparently and thus it was given the general description “animal effigy” by the Harvard Peabody Museum. Was this animal purely a mythological one seen only in the imaginary eye of the artist—or was it seen with the artist’s actual eyes?

As you will see the depiction of the living therapsid is actually close enough to modern depictions of these types of creatures as to be readily identified. In appearance it is close to that of therapsids such as moschops which we know from fossils found in South Africa.

‘Moschops (Greek for “calf face”) is an extinct genus of therapsid that lived in the Guadalupian epoch, around 268-260 million years ago. Therapsids are synapsids which were at one time the dominant land animals. It was around 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in) long..

….Moschops was heavily built, and had short, chisel-like teeth for cropping vegetation. Moschops mostly ate plants, but sometimes ate meat. The forelegs sprawled outwards, like those of a modern lizard, but the hind legs were under the body, like those of a mammal.” Wikipedia

Peabody Number: 46-77-30/5868
Display Title: Pottery animal figurine
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy
Classification: Whistle
Department: Archaeological
Geography/Provenience:
South America/Peru/La Libertad Region///Sausal
Materials: Ceramic


Here we show the ancient, ceramic artifact in comparison to moschop and to another dicynodont therapsid. Moschops and therapsids similar to him supposedly went extinct before the dinosaurs even evolved. Clearly of this ancient Peruvian artifact represents one of these creatures something is extremely wrong with the evolutionary time scale.
           

8) Quapaw’s “Underwater Panther” from the 1500”s Could In Fact Be an Eyewitness Depiction of Dinosaur Such As Tenontosaurus


According to Wikipedia the Mississippian culture was a mound building group of indigenous people who lived in the Midwestern, Eastern, and Southeastern United States from approximately 800 A.D. to 1500 A.D. The collectors at Artsmia.org believe it to be a depiction of a mythological creature called an underwater panther. That makes these people seem “mystical” all right.

But what if it is an accurate depiction of an animal living at the time that we would call a dinosaur-rendered somewhat invisible as a depiction because modern versions of the creature differ greatly? Here is the museum description:

“The prominent colored swirls and eye motifs mark this animal as an Underwater Panther, one of the primary beings in the ancient Mississippian belief system and that of their descendants. The swirling pattern on its sides signifies water, while the eye markings allude to the animal’s unusually keen vision.

Red and white were symbolically significant colors that represented fundamental oppositions such as peace and war, light and dark and the on-going struggle between the celestial and subterranean realms. Underwater Panthers belonged to the subterranean and possessed great supernatural power. Their significance led Mississippian and subsequent artists to depict them frequently in many forms and media, including three-dimensional sculptures like this vessel. “

The toes of this creature appear to be triple toed-similar to a dinosaur. Its tail is very thick in the way dinosaur tails are often illustrated by modern paleo artists. I took a look to see what types of dinosaur fossils were prominent with respect to quadruped dinosaurs in those parts of the United States.


Here we show the “underwater panther” in comparison to tenontosaurus a genus of medium to large ornnithopod dinosaurs. It should be noted that there were a number of ornnithopod dinosaurs found to have lived in those parts of north America which would have had similar body shapes.

The genus tenontosaurus is known from the late Aptian to Albian ages of the middle Cretaceous period sediments of western North America, dating between 115 to 108 million years ago. It was formerly thought to be a ‘hypsilophodont’, but since Hypsilophodontia is no longer considered a clade, it is now considered to be a very primitive iguanodont.

The teeth of this portrait do give me pause. The point is however not that we know the specific type of dinosaur that was sculpted, but rather that it is more likely that it is a dinosaur being depicted here rather than an underwater panther (which itself sounds like a cryptid).

Vessel
Artist Unknown (Quapaw)
(United States, North America), c. 1500
Ceramic, pigment
9 1/8 x 10 3/8 x 5 1/4 in. (23.18 x 26.35 x 13.34 cm)
The William Hood Dunwoody Fund 2004.33

           

9)Metropolitan Museum of Asian Art’s Sauropod Dinosaur from Iran 250 B.C. to 225 A.D.


This artifact is from the Metropolitan Museum of Asian art and is labeled “zoomorphic”. I’m somewhat surprised that they didn’t call it a camel. Clearly however it is a sculpted ceramic in the form of a sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs went extinct 65 million years ago according to science. This piece was estimated to have been made between 250 B.C. and 225 A.ZD. That period obviously covers the time of Christ.

Zoomorphic vessel
250 B.C.E.- 225 C.E.
Parthian period
Ceramic
H: 15.2 W: 28.4 D: 12.1 cm
Northern Iran, Northern Iran S1987.944

           

10) Ulisse Aldrovandi’s Detailed Drawing of A Long Tailed Pterosaur; Before They Were “Discovered” By Science

Ulisse Aldrovandi (also Aldrovandus) was born in 1522 and died in 1605. He is sometimes referred to as the father of natural history studies. By profession he was a professor of philosophy but eventually became one of the first professors of the natural sciences at Bologna (no offense intended).


Ulisse died 250 years before the first pterosaur was discovered by a scientist and he mistakenly thought it was a sea going creature. It was not until the beginning of the 19th century that science realized that pterosaurs were flying creatures.

“The first pterosaur fossil was described by the Italian naturalist Cosimo Collini in 1784. Collini misinterpreted his specimen as a seagoing creature that used its long front limbs as paddles.

A few scientists continued to support the aquatic interpretation even until 1830, when the German zoologist Johann Georg Wagler suggested that Pterodactylus used its wings as flippers. Georges Cuvier first suggested that pterosaurs were flying creatures in 1801, and coined the name “Ptero-dactyle” in 1809 for the specimen recovered in Germany.” …Wikipedia

After his death his book Serpentum, et draconum historiæ Serpentum, et Draconum was published. In it, was a drawing supposedly from life (well it was dead!) of a dragon which comports very well with a long tailed, crested pterosaur especially given that Aldrovandi was a philosopher and naturalist –and not an artist.

The interesting thing about Aldrovandi’s pterosaur is that it has the crest of the pteranodon and the tail of one of the long tailed rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Although we don’t know this exact pterosaur from science it closely matches modern day eyewitness descriptions and drawings of a long tailed pterosaur. (There are long tail crested pterosaurs known to science but none with the classic bone sticking out the back of its head kind).

Note what might look like another set of small wings at the legs of Aldrovandi’s dragon. It is shown here in the more modern drawing between the pteranodon’s legs. That is called the uropatagium; and since it does not appear on birds it is one indication that Aldrovandi actually saw what he drew.

“some pterosaur groups had a membrane that stretched between the legs, possibly connecting to or incorporating the tail, called the uropatagium; the extent of this membrane isn’t certain, as studies on Sordes seem to suggest that it simply connected the legs but did not involve the tail (rendering it a cruropatagium). It is generally agreed though that non-pterodactyloid pterosaurs had a broader uro/cruropatagium, with pterodactyloids only having membranes running along the legs; Pteranodon in particular might have developed/redeveloped an uropatagium, given the structure of the tail”..Wikipedia

The picture on the right (above) shows Aldrovandi’s dragon compared to Eskin Kuhn’s drawing (bottom, right) from his eyewitness sighting in the 1970’s. Kuhn was an artist and a soldier stationed at Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. His “pteranodon” had both the backwards facing “crest” and the long tail with tail vain of the rhamphorhynchoid pterosaurs. Top right is a modern drawing of a pteranodon without the long tail. Aldrovandi has the tail, crest and bat like wings of a pterosaur.
           

11) Peabody Museum Seeks to Make an Ancient Veraguas Culture Dinosaur Evolve Into a Bird Right Before Our Eyes

The “Bird” effigy ceramic whistle (middle) is from the ancient Veraguas Culture of Panama. That culture inhabited Panama from approximately 700 A.D. to 1530 A.D.

“This culture inhabited the central region of what is now province of Veraguás in Panama. The area extends from the Pacific to the Caribbean coast and includes a number of islands. The climate here is mainly humid and tropical, and the landscape includes wooded areas and valleys suitable for agriculture, as well as high mountains, hilly areas, and coastal lowlands.” Museo Chileno de Arte Precolombino


The ceramic sculpture with three legs does not have the correct number for either the bird (two) or the crested hadrosaur (four). My take is that given the teeth (which birds do not have) and the thick tail this is not a depiction of a bird but rather of a crested hadrosaur such as corythosaurus.

The single combined front legs represent the two front legs of the creature and this is not uncommon with pre Columbian art. One can certainly decide for his or her self.

Peabody Number: 39-90-20/6461
Display Title: Pottery bird effigy whistle. Light brown, probably faded from red.
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic whistle, animal effigy with tripod legs
Classification: Ceramic
Department: Archaeological
Culture/Period: Veraguas
Geography/Provenience: Central America/Panama/Veraguas

           

12)Plesiosaur or Dinosaur? Mythological or Cryptozoological?


Here are a number of ancient artifacts that do beg the question; sea monster or dinosaur. It may not be clear what animal the artist has in mind but I believe that they so clearly mirror what modern day artists see as dinosaurs and marine reptiles that they simply cannot be imaginary creatures.

The ancient artist in each case intended to represent an actual living creature and they must have expected the beholder to recognize what the creature was as well. In each of these examples only a portion of the animal is sculpted making the crypto detective work more difficult.

In situations like these the museum or the auction house usually leaves this kind of speculation to the viewer but often uses the term “zoomorphic” as the description. Often as well they will name a creature for which if it were truly what the ancient artist intended he/she would have proven to be a terrible artist. That should drive down prices!

Christie’s auction house described this artifact as a horse which may seem reasonable at first but no horse would have that long a neck. Alternative identifications include the plesiosaur or a dinosaur. Plesiosaurs of course supposedly went extinct around 65 million years ago as did it is claimed, the dinosaur.

The artifact is thought to have come from the period of up to 1,000 Years before Christ.

Christie’s
• Overview
• Features
Lot Description
ANCIENT NEAR EASTERN TERRACOTTA ZOOMORPHIC RHYTON
CIRCA LATE 1ST MILLENNIUM B.C.

One in the form of a seated camel, black glazed, carrying two jars on either side of its back; another in the form of a horse, a strap handle joining the rim to the back of the vessel, a perforation at the top of the head forming the spout, 16 cm. high max.; an Amlash terracotta steatopygous idol, possibly 2nd Millenium B.C., 20.5 cm. high, mounted (repaired); and a bull rhyton, not ancient, 15 cm. high (4)

This item is described as a “serpent” effigy bowl; perhaps a “sea serpent”?


This pottery piece has been categorized as Neeley’s Ferry which are artifacts of one of the ancient group of State of Arkansas cultures. Ancient peoples are thought to have lived in Arkansas between 600 B.C. and 1600 A.D.

The Peabody specifically dated the artifact between 1350 and 1550.

This piece is further described as an earthen bowl, animal. The animal has a head with teeth giving the appearance of either a sea creature with long winding tail or perhaps a dinosaur.


Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21621
Display Title: Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl head and tail start on body & on short axis
Descriptions:
Inventory Description: Ceramic, complete vessel, bowl, mended, serpent head and tail
Object Description: Earthen bowl, animal. Neeley’s Ferry serpent effigy bowl, head and tail start on body, tail turned on itself, head and tail on short axis.
Classification: Bowl
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience: North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Halcomb’s Mounds; Arkansas State Intrasite: Grave, 18 inches deep; 2 feet from river

Above shows our “sea monster” at another angle which provides additional detail concerning the shape of the head and tail. By the way, seals have fins and flippers not “tails”.

This final piece is also from the Neeley’s Ferry mounds and is described as a “ceramic effigy vessel of zoomorphic design”.


This artifact was found in a gravesite buried three feet below ground level and has been dated from the period between 1350-1550.

As you can see it is very reminiscent of modern paleoartist’s depiction of theropod or meat eating dinosaurs. Of course, we only have the head but is it possible that the artist saw and knew about a then living version of such a creature?

Or is it more believable that this is an effigy of a mythological animal which accidently reminds us of modern ideas about how dinosaurs looked?

Peabody Number: 80-20-10/21195
Display Title: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomorphic design
Descriptions: Inventory Description: Ceramic effigy vessel, zoomophic design
Classification: Effigy
Department: Archaeological
Date: A.D. 1350 – 1550
Culture/Period: Parkin Phase
Geography/Provenience:North America/United States/Arkansas/Cross County//Neeley’s Ferry Mounds; Arkansas State # 3CS24
Intrasite: Grave, 3 feet deep Geo-Locale: Saint Francis River, West side of
Materials: Ceramic
Collector: Edwin Curtiss (01/01/1880)

           

Bonus: Nicoya, Pre Columbian Incense Burner Maker Tops Reptilian Artifact with Feet of a Theropod Dinosaur Which is Quite A Feat for Someone Who Missed Dinosaurs by 65M Years



Top left is a pre Columbian Censer (Incensario), from the 10th–12th century. There are many examples of this type of pre Columbian censer topped by a dragon/dinosaur. The excellent example at the top left is at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. If you take the time you can see the full body of a quadruped, dinosaur like creature with an extremely ornate crest or horns. This is typical of these artifacts.

No matter how un crocodile like the animal perched at the top is this type of vessel is known as either alligator or crocodile ware and elaborate stories have been concocted by archaeologists about the sacred nature of crocodiles and alligators in the pre Columbian cultures. Here’s a quote describing the object, top left by the Met.

The flare-footed, spherical bowl of this ceramic censer is enhanced, in silhouette, by the flamboyance of its chimney. Textured, appliqué bands encircle and emphasize the tall smoothness of the chimney. On the perforated cap rests an elaborate crested crocodilian. Smoke from the incense that was burned in the bowl escaped through the holes of the cap and from openings in the animal’s body. The rhythmical texture of the appliqué visually unites it with the surface of the creature’s body where the nubby portions are taken to represent the scutes of the reptile.

Both textured appliqués and scutes are surfaced in white. The spiky crest that surrounds the head is customarily found in incensarios of this period. Crocodilians frequently appear in Costa Rican art, strongly suggesting the supernatural import of these creatures in ancient times…The Met

On the Top right is a photo of one of those pre Columbian artifacts, Nicoya, an incense burner.
what is interesting about the artifact on the top, right is that a close up of the animals feet (bottom left) reveal and striking similarity of its feet as sculpted to that of the theropod dinsoaurs (bottom, right) and unlike those of lizards-or crocodiles.

           

Conclusion: There are hundreds if not thousands of artifacts in museums around the world containing representations of extinct creatures that we now called dinosaurs. The most obvious examples are labeled as fakes and are in provide collections.

Those that are not obvious dinosaurs are labeled dragons, unknown, zoomorphic, mythological, animal etc. Of course many artifacts are just those things. The issue is that when a group (archaeologists) are absolutely convinced that these animals lived millions of years ago all evidence will be viewed to reflect that belief and those that don’t will be reinterpreted, labeled or hidden away.

In any case if you should find that even one of the items in our collection is a dinosaur-or that a dinosaur is the most likely explanation that one should be enough to make you question the current scientific history control. But we understand that bucking the system is difficult to do.

Since I began with a quote from the Princess Bride it might be appropriate to finish with a modified version of another such quote:

Big Science: We face each other as God intended. Sportsmanlike. No tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone. (not actually a believer)
Believer: You mean, you’ll put down your rock and I’ll put down my sword, and we’ll try to convince each other like civilized people-with facts and evidence?
Big Science; [brandishing rock (public opinion, science mythology, ridicule] I could just wipe you out now.
Believer: Frankly, I think the odds are slightly in your favor at hand fighting.
Big Science: It’s not my fault being the biggest and the strongest. I don’t even exercise.

Despite Coelacanth Does the Evolutionary Dogma Re Man and Dinosaur Remain Unshaken?
Or, Do Those Dogon Antique Dinosaurs of West Africa Prove Science is Myth-Staken

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Feb 13 2013


Photo:Antique Dogon People’s Sculpture at the Metropolitan Museum of Art;Details and ID comparisons below.

The coelacanth is a species of fish which had been thought by evolutionists to have evolved 400 million years ago (before the dinosaurs) and to have become extinct 80 million years ago. That was until living specimens began to be found in 1938.

Question; what percentage wrong were evolutionary scientists about Coelacanth? I mean if you believed that they were a magical fish that would take you direct to Atlantis-on their backs if you said the secret word, you would be wrong- but really not that much more wrong than evolutionists had been. They believed up until 1938 that coelacanth walked on the sea bed using its two pairs of double fins, and that it represented a transitional form between land and sea creatures.

Shockingly for some, the living coelacanths discovered then and since look just like their fossils. Thus, evolutionists who discovered that they were off 80 million years in terms of extinction had to face the prospect of also being off 400 million years in terms of evolution. In 1938 it became known that there were no coelacanth experts but in a way one could understand their mistake; the coelocanth is all pre-historicky looking.



Similarly, there are no dinosaur experts either. No one really knows what they looked like. Many if not most ideas about them have already been proved wrong or have experienced “turbulence”. Species and types merge and disappear or are it almost seems randomly moved over to another tree or up and down said evolutionary tree.

Are they warm blooded or cold blooded? Covered with feathers? Last year science suggested that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by 33% to 50%. A number of species of dinosaurs completely disappeared last year when it was decided that some individuals were merely juvenile versions of another type of dinosaur.

Paleontologists are famous for naming essentially the same dinosaur found in various locales and respective continents the ME-o-saurus (“ME” being the name of each discoverer). Science tells us that dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago but I’m afraid that the historical data tells us otherwise. We’ll take a quick peek at a few artifacts from West Africa (some previously seen here) to see if its credible to believe that man and dinosaur never coexisted.

The Dogon Peoples

“The Bandiagara Cliffs The Dogon are an ethnic group living in the central plateau region of the country of Mali, in the West of the Continent of Africa, south of the Niger bend, near the city of Bandiagara, in the Mopti region. The population numbers between 400,000 and 800,000[1] The Dogon are best known for their religious traditions, their mask dances, wooden sculpture and their architecture…….


The principal Dogon area is bisected by the Bandiagara Escarpment, a sandstone cliff of up to 500m (1,640 ft) high, stretching about 150 km (90 miles). To the southeast of the cliff, the sandy Séno-Gondo Plains are found, and northwest of the cliff are the Bandiagara Highlands. Historically, Dogon villages were established in the Bandiagara area in consequence of the Dogon people’s collective refusal to convert to Islam a thousand years ago.

Dogon insecurity in the face of these historical pressures caused them to locate their villages in defensible positions along the walls of the escarpment. The other factor influencing their choice of settlement location is water. The Niger River is nearby and in the sandstone rock, a rivulet runs at the foot of the cliff at the lowest point of the area during the wet season.


Dogon art is primarily sculpture. Dogon art revolves around religious values, ideals, and freedoms (Laude, 19). Dogon sculptures are not made to be seen publicly, and are commonly hidden from the public eye within the houses of families, sanctuaries, or kept with the Hogon (Laude, 20). The importance of secrecy is due to the symbolic meaning behind the pieces and the process by which they are made.

Themes found throughout Dogon sculpture consist of figures with raised arms, superimposed bearded figures, horsemen, stools with caryatids, women with children, figures covering their faces, women grinding pearl millet, women bearing vessels on their heads, donkeys bearing cups, musicians, dogs, quadruped-shaped troughs or benches, figures bending from the waist, mirror-images, aproned figures, and standing figures (Laude, 46-52). Signs of other contacts and origins are evident in Dogon art. The Dogon people were not the first inhabitants of the cliffs of Bandiagara. Influence from Tellem art is evident in Dogon art because of its rectilinear designs (Laude, 24).”..Wikipedia

Dogon Zoomorphic Head


Time Period’ 1800-early 1900’s. The Dogon Peoples. Mali Dimensions:
H x W: 8 x 1in. (20.3 x 2.5cm) Wood and Iron
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Bryce Holcombe Collection of African Decorative Art, Bequest of Bryce Holcombe, 1984

The item is described as “zoomorphic. It is an animal or animal like, but the museum is not able or ready to make an identification. They may consider it to be a mythological creature. In our view it closely matches the current view of the appearance of the crested, duck billed dinosaurs-the lambeosaurines although few if any hadrosaur fossils have been found in West Africa.

Here we show the sculpture in comparison to one of the crested hadrosaurine dinosaurs, hypacrosaurus.


Hypacrosaurus was a genus of duckbill dinosaur similar in appearance to Corythosaurus. Like Corythosaurus, it had a tall, hollow rounded crest, although not as large and straight. It is known from the remains of two species that spanned 75 to 67 million years ago, in the Late Cretaceous of Alberta, Canada, and Montana, USA, and is the latest hollow-crested duckbill known from good remains in North America. It was an obscure genus until the description of nests, eggs, and hatchlings belonging to H. stebingeri in the 1990s.

It is not our intent to claim that this traditional Dogon sculpture represents hypacrosaurus, merely that it likely represents one of the closely related lambeosauine, crested, duckbilled dinosaurs. The specific type may have yet to be discovered. There are alternate suggestions for this piece of sculpture including a crested duck but we think that it very closely resembles a dinosaur that was thought by science to have gone extinct 65 million years ago.

500 Year Old Dogon Bipedal Statue


The Dogon peoples have become somewhat of the darlings of individuals around the world who believe that ancient technological prowess which is an enigma can best be explained by the belief that in the distant past the earth was visited by advanced aliens who imparted their knowledge to humans in some fashion. There are real archaeological anomalies out there and if one doesn’t have a Genesis/biblical system of belief it easy to see why many would find the ability of the current scientific paradigm to explain them insufficient and why they would construct alternate theories do deal with them.

“Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which have subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956 the French anthropologist Marcel Griaule studied the Dogon. This included field missions ranging from several days to two months in 1931, 1935, 1937 and 1938 and then annually from 1946 until 1956. In late 1946 Griaule spent a consecutive thirty-three days in conversations with the Dogon wiseman Ogotemmêli, the source of much of Griaule and Dieterlen’s future publications.

They reported that the Dogon believe that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius (sigi tolo or ‘star of the Sigui’, has two companion stars, p tolo (the Digitaria star), and mm ya tolo, (the female Sorghum star), respectively the first and second companions of Sirius A. Sirius, in the Dogon system, formed one of the foci for the orbit of a tiny star, the companionate Digitaria star. When Digitaria is closest to Sirius, that star brightens: when it is farthest from Sirius, it gives off a twinkling effect that suggests to the observer several stars. The orbit cycle takes 50 years. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.
Griaule and Dieterlen were puzzled by this Sudanese star system, and prefaced their analysis with the following

remark:-
The problem of knowing how, with no instruments at their disposal, men could know the movements and certain characteristics of virtually invisible stars has not been settled, nor even posed.

In 1976 Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book called The Sirius Mystery arguing that the Dogon’s system reveals precise knowledge of cosmological facts only known by the development of modern astronomy, since they appear to know, from Griaule and Dieterlen’s account, that Sirius was part of a binary star system, whose second star, Sirius B, a white dwarf, was however completely invisible to the human eye, (just as Digitaria is the smallest grain[clarification needed] known to the Dogon), and that it took 50 years to complete its orbit. The existence of Sirius B had only been inferred to exist through mathematical calculations undertaken by Friedrich Bessel in 1844. Temple then argued that the Dogon’s information, if traced back to ancient Egyptian sources and myth, indicated an extraterrestrial transmission of knowledge of the stars. Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen had ever made such bold claims about a putative esoteric source for the Dogon’s knowledge.”…Wikipedia


I mention the foregoing because this little 500 year old Dogon metal statue has been swept up into this alien story by calling it a Nommo, a kind of fish/amphibian god slash alien.

Its reptilian, its walking in a bipedal fashion and its strange looking. For purposes of the alien scenario it fits in nicely-if you ignore the fact that it looks quite a bit like a terrestrial animal we know well.

From the Genesis creation account perspective, however it clearly fits as a creation of the first six days; a bipedal dinosaur.

Here we compare it with a more or less random, carnivorous, three toed, bipedal dinosaur.

Which is it”, then an alien fish/amphibian god representative –or an indication that the Dogon peoples of West Africa interacted with, carnivorous, bipedal dinosaurs within the last 1,000 years?

Mystery of the African (Dogon) Ornithopod Dinosaur

Around the time Sir Richard Owen had coined the term “dinosaur” to describe the giant “terrible lizards” whose bones were then being discovered in the mid-1800′s the Dogon tribe was creating art which appears to represent one of them riding one of those creatures.



Features of the “dinosaur” are accurate enough for a species identification to be made. An Ornithopod dinosaur, in our humble opinion.

The birdlike head with strong jawline, “duck bill”; and the knees appearing to bend in the “wrong” direction (opposite ours) separate this dinosaur from the sauropods.

In actuality the front legs do bend in the opposite direction, but it the high ankles of these creatures which make it appear that the rear legs also bend in the forward direction.

Examples of the Ornithopod dinosaur depicted include; iguanadon and hadrosaurus as shown below. Note also the accuracy of this African depiction compared to early “scientific” depictions.

It’s interesting to note that the gallery showing this piece claims that this is dinosaur, from the mid-1800′s and that they can authenticate its age and origin. If you’ve got a spare $1,200, pick it up and send us a photo of the other side of the piece.

Antique African bronze dinosaur



Dogon Tribe African bronze vessel in the form of dinosaur, with the lid, on the lid a seated human figurine, the body of the vessel with linear scarifications, long tail. Covered in a light earthen patina. Antique African artifact 1800′s AD. This antique African artifact comes with a certificate of authenticity and time period.
All ancient artifacts and antiques, ancient jewelry, ancient statues, etc. are guaranteed to be authentic and from the time period stated.

All artifacts come with a certificate of authenticity and time period. We specialize in antiquities located in our online Treasures of the World gallery at World Wide Store.

View our ancient artifacts list view or aisles for other extraordinary artifacts. Also see other categories, Ancient artifacts Byzantine, Celtic, Cycladic, Egyptian, European, Greek, Holy land, Luristan, Mesopotamian, Persian, Roman, Syrian, African artifacts, Maya, and Prehistoric artifacts.

Many artifacts are rare and date back as far as 3000 BC. All artifacts are guaranteed to be authentic. Artifacts are one of a kind. If the item you want has already sold we may have something similar available.
Antique African bronze dinosaur
1800′s AD
measures: 14″ x 7 1/2″ $1200.00…..Treasures of the World”

Photo:Artifact with Iguanadon middle, and hadrosaurus, bottom.


When we discovered this artifact online, it had already been purchased by our friend Vance Nelson at CreationTruthMinistries.org. He currently has it in his possession and this new photo is Copyright CreationTruthMinistries.

Looking at the piece again we were struck by how detailed it actually is; the “skin” of the “dinosaur” could also provide evidence that the artist actually saw a living version of the creature at a time scientific depictions of dinosaurs were still “primitive”.

Note the diamond shapes that cover the entire creature. Does that feature match up with any modern dinosaur discoveries we wondered; remembering that we thought the artifact represented an Ornithopod dinosaur.

Hadrosaur Skeleton Found

“The hadrosaur skeleton itself which includes parts of the hip, a femur, part of a foot, and a 10-foot section of tail that is missing its tip is already an uncommon discovery because it is the most complete dinosaur skeleton, and the first crested hadrosaur, ever discovered in southern Utah’s Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, says Alan Titus, a BLM paleontologist with the monument. Geology and paleontology were part of the reason this monument was established, Titus says.

This specimen is also special because many of the skin impressions were found in direct contact with the bone, so scientists can place with confidence the different scale patterns on particular parts of the dinosaur, Titus adds.

The specimen has two distinct skin patterns, says David Gillette, the dig’s lead scientist and a curator of the Museum of Northern Arizona. A diamond-shaped pattern was found near the tail’s tip, he says, while a more irregular and polygonal pattern was uncovered closer to the hip”….Geotimes, oct 2001

Other West African Dinosaurs and Supposedly Extinct Animals

The West African area seems to have been a hotbed of ancient dinosaur activity. In addition to the Dogon of Mali, items from the nearby Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Niger, the Sudan, Chad and Cameroon, most of which are not included in this article abound.

Not Just Dinosaurs; the Ancient West African’s Clearly “Interacted” with “Extinct” Elephant: Did Platybelodon Become Extinct Between 5 Million and 25 Million Years Ago-Or Did He Live in the Recent Past?


If dogs had become extinct 400 to 500 years ago, evolutionists probably would have created an elaborate family tree and asserted that the various types had evolved over millions of years. Maybe the Pekinese, Chihuahuas and Boxers would have been selected as the older more primitive dogs who would later, in this evolutionary scenario have evolved into the physically larger more gracile forms such as the Collie, the German Shepherd, the Greyhound and the Whippet. No doubt the wolf and other dog breeds would be in the middle branches somewhere.

Evolutionists see the animal tree as essentially a vertical one where millions of years are needed for creatures to evolve from one form to another. Creationists believe that the relationship between animals is horizontal with all forms living at the same time and/or genetic variations of the same type separated by time or distance. The polar bear and the brown bear are still bears, who exhibit their built in genetic variation.

The elephant as we know him is supposed to have evolved from more primitive forms of the order Proboscidea. One such “primitive” alleged elephant was Platybelodon, supposedly extinct before the evolution of modern man. But hey, why is one perched on top of this ancient Sudanese hat? (Fossils of platybelodon have also been found on the continent of Africa.)

“Platybelodon (“flat-tusk”) was a genus of large herbivorous mammal related to the elephant (order Proboscidea).
It lived during the Miocene Epoch, about 15-4 million years ago. Although it thrived during its time, it did not survive past the Miocene and is now extinct.

Some have speculated that it became too specialized and was unable to adapt to changing environmental conditions. Platybelodon was previously believed to have fed in the swampy areas of grassy savannas using its teeth to shovel up aquatic and semi-aquatic vegetation.

Photo, right: The animal displayed on the top of the Antique Sudanese “Hat” is compared with modern depictions of platybelodon.


However, wear patterns on the teeth suggest that it used its lower tusks to strip bark from trees. Platybelodon was very similar to the Amebelodon, another gomphothere species.

Another possibility is that it used its shovel-tusks to dig for water in dry seasons.
Due to the shape of the two lower teeth, which are worn by many gomphothere species (such as Platybelodon and Amebelodon) they are popularly known as shovel tuskers”….Wikipedia

Habitat
Platybelodon lived in wet parts of prairies and ate soft plants (including water plants).
When Platybelodon Lived
This prehistoric elephant lived during the middle to late Miocene (roughly 25 million years ago).
Classification
Platybelodon was an early mammal. Class Mammalia (mammals), Order Proboscidea, Suborder Elephantoidea (elephants), Family Gomphothere (closely related to Amebelodon), Genus Platybelodon.
Fossils
Fossils of Platybelodon have been found in North America, eastern Europe, Africa, and northwestern China (these animals probably crossed via the Siberian land bridge between the continents of Asia and North America)”….Enchanted Learning.com

  

Baule Ancient Dinosaur from Ivory Coast? BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Price Realized $7,500
Estimate
$3,000 – $4,000
Sale Information
Sale 2661
Arts of Africa, Oceania and the Americas including Property from the Estate of Ernst Beyeler
10 May 2012
New York, Rockefeller Plaza
TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York, The African-American Institute
1978
Lot Description
BAULE ZOOMORPHIC SEAT, ULIMBI BIA, IVORY COAST
Length: 44½ in. (113 cm.)

This item is compared to a mid-sized quadrupedal dinosaur. This piece has four legs so it is not a bird. Morphologically it is quite similar to this dinosaur depiction. It does not appear to be a lizard.


“The Baule belong to the Akan peoples who inhabit Ghana and Côte d’Ivoire. Three hundred years ago the Baule people migrated westward from Ghana when the Asante rose to power. The tale of how they broke away from the Asante has been preserved in their oral traditions.

During the Asante rise to power the Baule queen, Aura Poku, was in direct competition with the current Asante king. When the Asante prevailed, the queen led her people away to the land they now occupy. The male descendant of Aura Poku still lives in the palace she established and is honored by the Baule as their nominal king.” Arts of Africa

  

An Assembly of Various Allegedly “Extinct for Millions of Years Creatures” In Traditional Upper Volta Sculpture


TRADITIONAL SCULPTURE FROM UPPER VOLTA
An Exhibition of objects from New-York museums and private collectors
Exhibition Catalog, October 24, 1978 – March 24, 1979
New York
The African-American Institute
1978
26 x 21 cm

This antique sculpture from the Upper Volta region (now called Burkina Faso) appears to represent several creatures thought to have been extinct for millions of years. The quadrupeds have horned faces as do the ceratopsian dinosaurs and the bipedal, non human, winged creatures appear to represent several types of pterosaurs.

Both pterosaurs and birds have keeled breastbones but it is especially noticeable on this antique sculpture.

Conclusion:

These are just a few examples of art and artifacts from Western Africa which indicate a familiarity with various types of extinct dinosaurs and other creatures. Can some of them be explained away?

Perhaps.

Can all of them be explained away as mythological or fake? I don’t think so. We’ve encountered hundreds of examples of ancient or antique artifacts that we think prove that just as science was wrong with respect to the ceolocanth by 80,000,000 years (with no evolutionary changes in 400,000,000 evolution years) it is certainly possible that they are also wrong about the evolution of and extinction of the dinosaurs.

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus? Plus; Remarkarble Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 24 2012

Photo: How to Train Your Dragon? Viking vs Brachiosaurus.

“Look at Behemoth, which I made just as I made you; it eats grass like an ox. Its strength is in its loins, and its power in the muscles of its belly. It makes its tail stiff like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are knit together. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like bars of iron. It is the first of the great acts of God— only its Maker can approach it with the sword.” …Job 40 15-19 New Revised Standard Version

“Megasthenes writeth, that there be serpents among the Indians to that bignesse, that they are able to swallow stags or buls all whole….Attilius Regulaus, generall under the Romanes, during the warres against the Carthaginians, assailed a Serpent neere the river Bagrada, which caried in length 120 foot…” Book 8 Pliny’s Natural History

Ancient Viking Brachiosaurus?
by Chris Parker
Copyright 2012

Photo: From the latter part of this article; fully explained below.


Dragons; sometimes huge, reptilian, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – are reported not as mythological but as real in every ancient culture on every continent. Of course, those creatures that we now call dinosaurs were also sometimes huge, dangerous, sometimes winged, sometimes not creatures – that lived on every continent. (Technically pterosaurs are not considered dinosaurs).

Among those ancient cultures who described living dragons were the Norse and that subset of the Norse culture the Vikings.

The Vikings

Painting: Just to be clear; the “dragon” on the ship’s prow is not our subject today.


“The Vikings (from Old Norse víkingr) were the Norse explorers, warriors, merchants, and pirates who raided, traded, explored and settled in wide areas of Europe, Asia and the North Atlantic islands from the late 8th to the mid-11th century.

These Norsemen used their famed longships to travel as far east as Constantinople and the Volga River in Russia, and as far west as Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland, and as far south as Nekor. This period of Viking expansion – known as the Viking Age – forms a major part of the medieval history of Scandinavia, Great Britain, Ireland and the rest of Medieval Europe.

Popular conceptions of the Vikings often differ from the complex picture that emerges from archaeology and written sources. A romanticised picture of Vikings as Germanic noble savages began to take root in the 18th century, and this developed and became widely propagated during the 19th-century Viking revival.

The received views of the Vikings as violent brutes or intrepid adventurers owe much to the modern Viking myth which had taken shape by the early 20th century. Current popular representations are typically highly clichéd, presenting the Vikings as familiar caricatures.

    The Norse Dragon Tradition

Dragons are common in Norse lore; we associate viking raiders with dragon headed ships. However this is slightly misleading because Norse lore made no distinction between dragons per se and serpents. A serpent was simply a dragon without wings.

In Nordic mythology, the figure of the dragon was often used as symbol of material greed, and harbringers of destruction, that is to say: they acquired a clearly negative symbolism, (unlike some aspects of the dragon in Eastern mythology). Clearly this makes them excellent figureheads for Viking raiders!

One of the most important Norse dragons is Nithhogr. This creature lives at the base of the world tree Yggdrasil and gnaws at the roots, attempting to destroy it. Nithhogr also devours the corpses of the dead. The world serpent Jormungandr would also be classed as a dragon in Norse lore. Jormungandr – the Midgard serpent – lives in the waters curled in a circle round the world and biting his own tail.

Another well-known Norse dragon tale is that of Fafnir, who was turned into a dragon by his greed and who was slain by Siegfried. The hero Scandanavian hero Beowulf also fought dragons. Some have classed grendel and his mother as dragons, however they are more usually considered to be some form of troll”.Dragonrama

An Antique Viking Diplodocus?


This “ANCIENT VIKING BRONZE ZOOMORPHIC PENDANT,RARE” is actually a pendant currently on sale on Ebay. It is a bronze, zoomorphic depiction of a long necked, quadruped with curled tail used as a connection for the wire to be passed through for a wearer. The item actually has “bumpy skin” in the manner of the sauropod dinosaurs we believe it represents.

Not much information is provided about the object other than that which has been provided above. The location of the seller is Latvia, the seller is gint5812 who has a 100% approval rating. I’m not providing a link because the item has been sold and I have no way of knowing how long the link will be active.

The item is a “pendant”, approximately 3 inches from tail to nose. Is the item a real, antique Viking pendant? we can’t prove it is, however the surest way to have an object declared a fake is to present it in the shape of a dinosaur.

We have additional views of the object as well as comparisons with modern depictions of a certain type of sauropod dinosaur.

Sauropod dinosaurs are probably the most easily recognized type of dinosaur. They are large, long necked with a stocky body and a long tail. However, there were differences among the various types of sauropods and we believe that rather than just generally identifying this ancient depiction as a sauropod I believe we can go even further and identify the specific type of sauropod dinosaur that is being represented.

Of course, sauropod dinosaurs supposedly became extinct over 65 million years ago.


Right we compare a side view of the artifact along with a side view of a brachiosaurus skull and a modern version of brachiosaurus.

Brachiosaurus has a distinctive shaped head among the sauropods; it has a “bulb” or a large bulge on the top frontal portion of its skull. Various artists and paleontologists have represented that bulge in a number of ways in modern depictions. The skull of diplodocus is longer and more horse like than is the skull of brachiosaurus. Camarsaurus and Euhelopus have more rounded skulls. We believe that this ancient, Viking artifact specifically represents what science calls the brachiosaurus today. A chart showing these sauropod skulls is provided a bit further down in this post.

A potential issue (among some would say, many) is that brachiosaurus is supposed to be an American dinosaur even though “related” dinosaurs and potential brachiosaurus remains have been found in Africa and Europe.

Does this prove that these Vikings made it to America? I’m not serious. One of the many differences that creationists have with evolutionists is that the need for isolated populations creates a bias for continent only dinosaurs. Creationists are not surprised when the same species appears on many or even all continents.


This grouping (photo) is not from Wikipedia and provides a comparison between the heads of modern depictions of brachiosaurus from fossil remains and a possible ancient eyewitness depiction.

“Brachiosaurus is a genus of sauropod dinosaur from the Jurassic Morrison Formation of North America. It was first described by Elmer S. Riggs in 1903 from fossils found in the Grand River Canyon (now Colorado River) of western Colorado, in the United States. Riggs named the dinosaur Brachiosaurus altithorax, declaring it “the largest known dinosaur”. Brachiosaurus had a proportionally long neck, small skull, and large overall size, all of which are typical for sauropods. However, the proportions of Brachiosaurus are unlike most sauropods.

The forelimbs were longer than the hindlimbs, which result in a steeply inclined trunk, making the overall body shape reminiscent of a modern giraffe. Also, while the tail is a typical long dinosaur tail, it was relatively short for a sauropod.

Brachiosaurus is the namesake genus of the family Brachiosauridae, which includes a handful of other similar sauropods. Much of what is known by laypeople about Brachiosaurus is in fact based on Giraffatitan brancai, a species of brachiosaurid dinosaur from the Tendaguru Formation of Tanzania that was originally described by German paleontologist Werner Janensch as a species of Brachiosaurus. Recent research shows that the differences between the type species of Brachiosaurus and the Tendaguru material are significant enough that the African material should be placed in a separate genus. Several other potential species of Brachiosaurus have been described from Africa and Europe, but none of them are thought to belong to Brachiosaurus at this time.”…Wikipedia

The Upshot


How do we account for the close match of the head of this artifact with the actual skull of brachiosaurus? Is this some quadrupedal, dragon like, reptile like (with “reptile” skin”) and frankly brachiosaurus like object nevertheless a wholly mythological depiction? Is that the simplest explanation or is it more likely that the maker of this artifact was familiar enough with the animal to make even a stylized form of it–which others would also recognize?

There must be an infinite number of mythological animal shapes from which an artist could choose from. Wouldn’t it be too much of a coincidence to believe that a purely mythological animal had nearly exact feature matches with a creature that allegedly became extinct 65 million years ago? “Behold now behemoth”!

Just for Kicks, Two Additional Viking Sauropods?


The same seller has another artifact, also described as an ancient Viking Zoomorphic bronze pendant, (rare). The location of the object is also Latvia.

The bidding has closed at $140.00. This artifact has the “telltale” head bulge on top of its head.

   

SOLID 830 SILVER DRAGON TEA SET 1892 ANTIQUE NORWEGIAN

This piece can be associated with the seven others that we are showing below because they all clearly represent the same long necked creature. We are making what we believe is the proper identfication below.


“A stunning rare Norwegian sterling silver tea set. It is hallmarked with the 830S standard mark and the makers mark of David Andersen, Christiania (the name for Oslo pre 1924), and the date 1892. For those unaware Andersen is regarded as Norway’s most sought after maker. It has been beautifully made being designed around a dragon theme. The teapot has a cast dragon spout and handle and cast dragon feet, the sugar bowl and cream jug have dragon handles and feet. Each piece has been engraved DK or KD as they are entwined.

Photo: Right 1910 Sauropod Drawing


It is in outstanding condition being free from dings splits and repairs. The pot handle wobbles a little due to the shrinkage of the natural insulator rings but this is very easy for a silversmith to put right and there are of course a couple of faint marks but nothing of any significance”.

This piece sold for approximately $2,200. The date of 1892 means that it was created some 15 years after the bones were intially discovered in 1877. The head of the “dragon” matches the other six dragons from across time and around the world that we show below.

We do not need to suppose that David Anderson the maker actually saw a live sauropod-only that at that through that time the depiction of this dinosaur was known and rather consistently drawn and sculpted. The detail and style of depictions of these dinosaurs at tha time were nothing like the current versions of these creatures.
   
Remarkable Correlation Of Ancient Sauropod Depictions with Specific Genera of Sauropoda Across Time and Continents (How to Terrain Your Dragons?)

Here’s that promised sauropod skull chart. Notice that cranial bulge on the skull of brachiosaurus? If there were in fact ancient depictions of this sauropod might we not notice today the long neck, dragon nature, long tail and the telltale head bulge? see story above.


We have been noting for some time that man and sauropod certainly interacted in the recent past.

Although in most respects these creatures are quite similar there are characteristics of the skull that might allow us to show not only that man was an eyewitness to living examples of these creatures but with specific genera of the sauropoda!

The 5,300 Year Old Mesopotamian Diplodocus on an ancient cylinder seal.

This ancient cylinder seal, currently housed at the Louvre Museum portrays sauropod like creatures as well as giant “birds” or pterosaurs. The seal is from Mesopotamia, approximately 3300 B.C. (Moortgart, Anton, The Art of Ancient Mesopotamia, 1969, plate 292., presumably seen by the artist.


I would ask that the interested reader note the points of similarity between a close-up of the “sauropod” depiction created by rolling the cylinder with the skull of Diplodocus Longus. This is the basis for me to call this creature and the consistent comparisons below diplodocus depictions.

    

Tang Dynasty Euhelopus

The Euhelopus skull is shown in the chart above. It is the skull in the top, left of the chart. Its skull is more rounded than that of either brachiosaurus or diplodocus. The artifact shown is more than 2,000 years more recent and on an entirely different continent.

Euhelopus; Source: Thinkquest.org

One of the big plant-eating dinosaurs similar to Camarasaurus, Euhelopus, or “good marsh foot,” had a longer neck and nose. Like Camarasaurus, it had strong teeth that grew around its jaws.


Other dinosaurs of this type had teeth growing only in front. Euhelopus had large nostrils on top of its head. Because of this, some scientists think it had a long trunk. That would have made it look very strange.

Photo: Collection description: Tang Dynasty (618 A.D.-906 A.D.) nephrite jade finial in the shape of a bird’s head (sic). It was probably used as a handle for a knife or other such implement. There is a bit of calcification on the jade, but it is an exquisite piece. It’s in a private collection on sale for $5,500.00

Both Camarasaurus and Euhelopus were camarasaurid (chambered lizard) dinosaurs, with hollow chambers in the backbone.

Euhelopus was a little slimmer than Camarasaurus, but large members of the family may have weighed as much as 24 tons. The biggest could have been up to 50 feet in length – without trunk. From fossil remains, scientists believed they were at home in marshy land at the bank of muddy rivers or in swamps.

They would have been safer there than on dry or wooded land where big flesh eater roamed.

Location: Shandong, People’s Republic of China
Size: Length- 50 feet (15m)
Classification: Family-Camarasauridae
Suborder-Sauropodomorpha
Order-Saurischia
Time: Late Jurassic


It may not be possible to readily identify the specific similarity of the Euhelopus sauropod depiction with that of the Tang Dynasty artifact. On the right we’ve placed the unedited drawing of the Euhelopus skull (except that we tinted it red) on top of the artifact for comparison. What do you think? Bird or sauropod?

    

Diplodocus, Right to Left, Around the World and Across Culture and Eras-Click to enlarge photo. 

We believe that each of these depictions is of diplodocus, which has a flatter skull than does Brachiosaurus or the other rounder headed sauropods, Camarsarus and Euhelopus. There is a remarkable consistency between the depictions, whatever it is that is in the artist’s eye. The depictions span a time period beginning 5,300 years ago through the Acambaro depiction of possibly the last 1,000 years.


From left to Right:(A)This is another version of the Mesopotamian cylinder seal (colorized). 3,300 B.C. Currently housed at Louvre Museum.

(B) Coffee Pot. By: Unidentified artist, Portuguese (Lisbon)
19th century, about 1825-1850 Metal; silver, wooden handle 29.5 x 26.7
Curved steamed body, 4-sided, heavy moulding below long contracted neck. Flattened domed cover. On 4 claw-ball feet. Curved spout flat at back, with animal’s head tip. Angular wooden handle. Cast parrot on ball, finial screwed to cover. Bands of floral repousse at base, above and below mid-moulding, at neck and on cover.
Museum of Fine Arts, Boston

(C)From the Vietnamese Bronze Age: 3rd century A.D. Cast bronze. Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Dongson culture.

(D)Bronze Ladle with “dragon head” handle. Han dynasty(220 B.C. to approx 220 A.D… Chinaweb
(E)Acambaro Mexico. Carbon dated to 1,500 to 4,000 years old. http://www.omniology.com/ManyDinos.jpg

(F)Record ID: HAMP-9A5B16
Object type: BRIDLE FITTING
Broad period: EARLY MEDIEVAL
County: HAMPSHIRE
Workflow stage: Awaiting validation
A slightly corroded fragment from a late early-medieval/Anglo-Scandinavian cast copper-alloy cheekpiece (c. 11th century AD). The fragment is formed of a curved Ringerike style animal head and neck in profile, possibly a dragon or sea monster. The cheekpiece is flat and the neck is long and the head is set at roughly right angles to it. On the outer edge of the curve is a recessed protrusion, broadly semicircular with a small central knop and suggestions of losses behind. At the end of the head is a recurving hook, perhaps representing a horn. Below are three small lobed protrusions …

The piece (F) on the far right is Scandavavian, from the 11th century A.D. The piece on the far left (A) is from 3300 B.C.-and yet from left to right the open minded can see that it is always the same creature that is being depicted; long necked, fleshy nosed and often bearded.

(G) 1892 Norwegian Tea Set. (Described above)

A word about the noses. It seems that the noses portrayed here for diplodocus are “fleshy” when compared with modern depictions. Here is a idea why the ancient depictions could be more accurate.

Study Paints New Picture of Dinosaur’s Nose. John Roach for National Geographic News August 2, 2001

A new study suggests that anyone who sits down to draw a detailed picture of what dinosaurs may have looked like will have to tweak the nose a bit to get it right. Usually the flesh-covered nasal passages of dinosaurs are shown toward the back of the openings in the nose bone. But Lawrence Witmer, a paleontologist at Ohio University in Athens, Ohio, says that’s wrong, and the nostrils were really much closer to the front, just above the mouth, and were larger than thought.

Photo:Science Tries Fleshy Nosed Diplodocus

The finding, which Witmer reported in the August 3 issue of Science, is significant not just because it changes our idea of what dinosaurs looked like. It also has implications for how dinosaurs breathed, smelled, and regulated their body temperature and water loss.

“I don’t know why we got it wrong for so long,” said Witmer. “In general, the fleshy nostril the opening into the nasal cavity has escaped scientific inquiry.” People have relatively small bony nostrils, so there’s little doubt about where the flesh-covered nasal passages can be located to effectively do their job. The bony noses of dinosaurs, however, could have been more than two feet (0.6 meters) long, which leaves the placement of the fleshy nostrils open to interpretation.

Late Survival Theorem, Regarding Chalicotherium
From A Comfy Chair, We I.D. Un-cuddly “Nandi Bear”?
Plus, a Terrace of Lions? Dude You’re not even Tryin’
Enigma’s & Mysteries Due to Skewed View of History

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, Fin De Siecle, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Dec 04 2012



Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kinds, and cattle after their kinds, and every thing that creeps upon the earth after its kind:
and God saw that it was good.”

   
Can a Leopard Change Its Paradigm?

As a Christian my interests are not strictly limited to debates about the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation or debates concerning the existence of God. Those are all important to be sure but throughout history science has been driven by human curiosity about and discoveries concerning the world and the universe that God has made.

One of the interests I have is in something I like to call crypto-zoo-archaeology. Clues to the true history of our planet can be discovered by examining the art and artifacts of past civilizations. The truth is; studying and writing about what I and many others have found in these artifacts is another way of addressing; the meaning of scripture, issues concerning salvation and debates concerning the existence of God.


In this pursuit I have found that those who accept the literal creation account of Genesis have an incredible advantage in this arena. One can look at the artifacts of ancient history through at least two filters; 1)that all living creatures are descended from a single living cell and have evolved through some process (essentially linear and sequential) into the higher order living species that we see today, or 2)the Genesis account of creation which would mean that all living creatures including man have all lived together simultaneously through all history in essentially their current forms.

No matter which filter one uses much of ancient history will still be a puzzle. But using the wrong filter certainly leads to a copious number of; inconsistencies, anomalies, contradictions, unknowns, mysteries and a need to fill in missing information with speculations and assertions which are not data or evidence.

Personally, I have tested the Genesis account and found that what I see and what I expect to find in the historical and archaeological record better fit that filter.

Once one of the two above named paradigms are accepted however it is very difficult to see or even to consider evidence that conflicts with the paradigm. This is true whether you believe in evolution or in Creation ex Nihilo by God. This relative inability to see or except or even to evaluate evidence that might appear to conflict with your adopted paradigm afflicts even those among who are quite certain that we are actually open-minded and objective.

This doesn’t negate the fact that one of the referenced paradigms-is actually true-and that the selection of one or the other filter for your own life doesn’t have consequences.

When news outlets announced that James Cameron and others had allegedly found “the Jesus Tomb” it did not cause any consternation among us Christians who paid zero attention to the story. We waited for secular archaeologists to refute it-which they have. When news conferences, books and television series were coordinated around the announcement of an alleged human ancestor—which was going to change everything- exploded on the scene-“Ida”, I personally did not do a spit-take.

By the end of that year “Ida” was not even on lists for the top ten science stories of that year. “She/it had been debunked. I have never seen “evidence for evolution”. I’ve never seen a transitional fossil.

I accept that evolutionists have not seen evidence for the theory of creation either. However, shouldn’t just a single ancient artifact indicating that humans and dinosaurs lived together falsify the notion that we missed each other by 65 million years? In the 1920’s the World’s foremost archaeologist discovered human and dinosaur bones together in Mongolia and he found that they had fashioned jewelry by boring the shells and making ornaments of dinosaur eggs. (See our article: Dinosaur and Human Interactions in Our Times; the New York Times, LA Times, Chicago Sun Times ect)

Do I need to tell you that you need to use “fresh” un-fossilized dinosaur eggs for this purpose? Archaeologist, Roy Chapman Andrews, went on to become the director of the American Museum of Natural History-so how come so many evolutionists ask where there has ever been such evidence (of co-existence) ever in the world?

Let’s test my paradigm theory. Note the middle, right photograph compilation; the one with the three views of an archaeological object above. Once you read the museum’s description of the object, or perhaps prior thereto your filter goes into action.

“Colima Horned Toad. Protoclassic, ca. 100 B.C. to A.D. 250. Height: 5.3 in. (13.5 cm.); Length: 10.5 in. (26.7 cm.). Price: $2,250

There are four rows of spiked protrusions in high relief along the length of the body, and one row across the head, thirty in all. Coffee bean eyes, recessed nostrils, open mouth, spout as tail, and short legs create a reptile that seems pleased with his surroundings. Provenance: From a Riverside County, California Collection.”

Our article can be found Here.

Now, if you are a creationist, willing to believe that dinosaurs and man co-existed, you may see that the photo comparison with an armored dinosaur is very apt. If however, you are using the evolution filter it will be a toad. There is no way that it could be a dinosaur because you believe that they missed each other by 65 million years.

This is then, for you a toad, a fake or etc.. Paradigm preserved. Forehead unfurrowed. In the same way, of course, I have trouble accepting this as a toad because I see the dinosaur explanation as a better fit-however, I do believe that the toad explanation is a possibility.


These filters exist and work to protect us from having to flip flop our beliefs and our view on the world every five or six minutes.

Just above, left is another very interesting ancient artifact. This artifact is described by the curator as a “lion”. I picked this one out because I want to get into the heart of this post and talk about another group of famous lions. Most people would be perfectly willing to see this depiction as a “lion”.

“Early Islamic glass lion (zoomorphic balsamarium). 7th-9th century AD”.

Certainly no one would object to “mythological”, or “unknown animal” or even; “stylized lion figure”. One must make a decision and call it something. However, if you accept the evolutionary filter it is possible that a whole group of potential candidates can’t even be considered. What if the true depiction here is of some type of crested dinosaur? In the photo we’ve compared it to Olorotitan, a European, crested hadrosaur (top, right of photo) and to Amargasaurus, a crested sauropod. Fossils of the specific species have been found in Argentina.

My point is that creationists can consider the entire creation when examining an artifact but those using the other filter cannot—and maintain their paradigm-al purity. They must describe every artifact in terms of the ruling evolutionary paradigm or face the penalties that the scientific/academic/media culture will mete out. Can you imagine someone from Academia describing this as either a badly composed lion or possibly a sauropod like Amargasaurus?

So now let’s talk about some other depictions labeled “lions” by the archaeological establishment.

The Terrace of Lions at Delos


“The island of Delos, recognized as the birthplace of the god Apollo, has been a sacred area used for various reasons throughout history. Today it is one of the most important archaeological sites in Greece and is covered in excavations, one of which is the famous Terrace of the Lions. This terrace was erected and dedicated to Apollo by the people of Naxos just before 600 BCE.

The terrace consisted of a row of nine to twelve marble carved lions that faced eastward towards the Sacred Lake of Delos along the Sacred Way from Skardana Bay to the temples. The lions, with their mouths open as if roaring or snarling, were both meant to guard the sanctuaries and to inspire a feeling of divine fear among the worshippers. The way in which they were positioned is similar to the way sphinxes were set up along avenues in ancient Egypt.

Today, only five of the original lions remain with remnants of three others and the headless body of another has been transported and put over the main gate of a Venetian arsenal.” Biers, William R. The Archaeology of Greece. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1996. Whitley, James. The Archaeology of Ancient Greece. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2001.

“The island of Delos near Mykonos, near the centre of the Cyclades archipelago, is one of the most important mythological, historical and archaeological sites in Greece. The excavations in the island are among the most extensive in the Mediterranean; ongoing work takes place under the direction of the French School at Athens and many of the artifacts found are on display at the Archaeological Museum of Delos and the National Archaeological Museum of Athens.”

Photo:Naxian Lions held at the Museum at Delos are less damaged.


Question? Are these in fact, lions? If they are lions, they are surely “stylized lions” because their proportions are incorrect. Their front legs are too long. They have three fingers paws. Their bodies are too long. This from a culture that provides us many examples of museum level, realistic depictions of lions and other animals. If these are lions built to “guard” the sanctuaries why aren’t they more self-evidently and accurately sculpted; lions?

Could they depict some other animal? Are they mythological?

Prior to trying to answer that, we switch to a more recent crypto-zoological mystery; the Nandi Bear of Kenya for reasons which I hope to make clear.

The Nandi Bear and Chalicotherium


“The Nandi Bear, also known as Ngoloko, is a cryptid, or unconfirmed animal, reported to live in Africa. It takes its name from the Nandi people who live in western Kenya, near where the Nandi Bear is reported as living.

Frank W. Lane wrote, “What the Abominable Snowman is to Asia, or the great Sea Serpent is to the oceans, the Nandi Bear is to Africa. It is one of the most notorious of those legendary beasts which have, so far, eluded capture and the collector’s rifle.

…Descriptions of the Nandi Bear are of a ferocious, powerfully built carnivore with high front shoulders (over four feet tall) and a sloping back; somewhat similar to a hyena. Some have speculated that Nandi Bears are in fact a misidentified hyena or a surviving Ice Age giant hyena: Karl Shuker states that a surviving short-faced hyena Pachycrocuta brevirostris,extinct ca. 500,000 years before present, would “explain these cases very satisfactorily.”

Other than the Atlas Bear (extinct by the 1800s), no bears are known to be native to Africa, besides those of the prehistoric genera Agriotherium and Indarctos, which died out 4.4 million years ago. Louis Leakey suggested that Nandi Bear descriptions matched that of the extinct Chalicotherium, though chalicotheres were herbivores.

The Nandi people call it Kerit. Local legend holds that it only eats the brain of its victims. Nandi Bears were regularly reported in Kenya throughout the 19th century and early 20th century. Bernard Heuvelmans’s On the Track of Unknown Animals and Karl Shuker’s In Search of Prehistoric Survivors provide the most extensive chronicles of Nandi bear sightings in print.”


A syndicated news article appearing Mansfield News of January 6, 1924 reported that a very large fresh, fragment of unfossilized claw of chalicotherium had been discovered at Bunyoro, Uganda ( Central Africa) and that the thought to be extinct chalicotherium might be very much still alive.

In fact, Zoologists were making a connection between the stories the Nandi peoples had been telling of a fearsome, man killing, brain eating deadly night creature they called “Gereit” might exist and was in fact, chalicotherium. The drawing above right, is from that 1924 article and is a depiction of chalicotherium.

“Chalicotherium, genus of extinct perissodactyls, the order including the horse and rhinoceros. Fossil remains of the genus are common in deposits of Asia, Europe, and Africa from the Miocene Epoch (23 to 5.3 million years ago). The genus persisted into the following Pliocene Epoch, and remains of a related genus, Moropus, are found in North America.


Chalicotherium and its relatives, collectively known as the chalicotheres, ( we’re not locking down on the genus) were very unusual in appearance and structure. In overall appearance the body and slim skull were horse like. The front limbs were longer than the hind limbs, and the back sloped downward. The teeth were distinctive in structure and unhorse like. The feet were quite distinctive.

There were no hooves; instead, each of the three toes on each foot terminated in a strongly developed claw. It is probable that the development of claws was related to the feeding habits of the animal. Chalicotherium may have browsed on branches of trees, pulling them down with the front claws; the claws may also have been employed to dig up roots and tubers.”…Encyclopedia Britannica

The Crux: is the Nandi Bear a Chalicotherium? And What of the Lions of the Terrace at Delos?

Photo: Left, drawing of the Nandi bear from eyewitness accounts and Right, a frontal view of one of the Terrace of Lions, “lions”.

The Chalicotherium is supposed to have gone extinct from 5-7 million years ago. The chalicotherium has been forth as a possible ID for the Nandi bear primarily because the chalicotherium is also known for having much longer front legs than back legs and to have claws as some eyewitness accounts of the Nandi bear have described it.

The Nandi bear is also a cryptid whose description fits no known, living animal so the late survival of some animal thought to have been prehistoric are put forward as potential suspects. Hyenadon is another animal thought to have been prehistoric that has also been put forth as a potential suspect for the same reasons; high front shoulders, long front legs and a sloping back.

The chalicotherium ID is interesting in that this animal also has very unusual feet and claws which set him apart.

Photo:Comparison of admittedly carefully selected chalicotherium depiction inserted into old photo of Naxian (Terrace of Lions) Lion at Delos.


I came across the Terrace of Lions of Delos quite by accident while investigationg some other matter and was struck by how un-lion-like the lions were. They are magnificent animals to be sure but not like any lions I’ve ever seen. Could they be depictions of real creatures-who were not lions?

I did a quick Google search for prehistoric animals with long front legs and immediately was taken to articles about chalicotherium. Articles about chalicotherium also eventually led to articles concerning modern day speculation by cryptozoologists that chalicotherium was a potential match for the Nandi bear, a cryptid that I was unaware of.

The photo at the top of this section shows a very common drawing of the Nandi bear (of unknown source) along with a frontal photo of one of the lions of the Terrace of Lions. This is interesting because as far as I know no one has ever speculated that the “lions” of the Terrace of Lions has anything to do with either the Nandi bear or with chalicotherium. So is this visual similarity (if your filters aren’t preventing you from seeing it or mine forcing me to) just a coincidence?

Chalicotheres are usually depicted as thick, slow and sloth-like and not as fast, relatively slim and dangerous as the lions of Delos seem to appear.

Photo:Comparison of the skeleton of chalicotherium with a Naxian “lion” from the Delos Museum. Note that the face of the Naxian lion shown here has been worn down by weathering and age..


We know from articles about dinosaur depictions that scientists and artists are only guessing when they depict dinosaurs how a dinosaur looks just from their fossils alone.

We also remember that last year a scientific journal reported that scientists now believe that due to an error in a formula they have been using that they have overestimated the size of some dinosaurs by as much as 33% to 50%. The size of their bones are known it was the amount of meat the artists were throwing on the bone that is in question. This suggests that certain dinosaurs were depicted as much bulkier animals than they actually were. Could this be true of chalicotherium?

When artists or illustrators depict known animals the variety of the depictions, the form, the poses can be infinite because the real creature can appear in infinite poses and can be seen from infinite angles.

This not the case with unknown creatures. Inevitably, once a depiction of an animal is made (a guess) all other depictions take the shape of the reference depiction (or first few) and there becomes a limited view of the shape of the creature and even the poses that the animal is shown in. This group think about the look of an unknown creature appears to be inevitable. A radical departure from the consensus view of the creature won’t even be recognized as a depiction of said creature. Ironically an ancient depiction by an eyewitness to the living creature might be rejected because it does not look like the modern, consensus depiction.

Chalicotherium has three toes on each foot ending in claws. Still, the front and back feet are completely different from each other which may provide us some ID possibilities. Are there Nandi bear descriptions of three-toed feet? (By the way lions have five toes in front and four on their back feet).

Here is an antique, eyewitness account of an encounter with the Nandi bear:

“…the whole tent rocked; the pole to which Mbwambi was tied flew out and let down the ridge-pole, enveloping me in flapping canvas. At the same moment the most awful howl I have ever heard split the night. The sheer demoniac horror of it froze me still…I heard my pi-dog yelp just once. There was a crashing of branches in the bush, and then thud, thud, thud, of some huge beast making off. But that howl! I have heard half a dozen lions roaring in a stampede-chorus not twenty yards away; I have heard a maddened cow-elephant trumpeting; I have heard a trapped leopard make the silent night miles a rocking agony with screaming, snarling roars. But never have I heard, nor do I wish to hear again, such a howl as that of the chimiset. A trail of red spots on the sand showed where my pi-dog had gone. Beside that trail were huge footprints, four times as big as a man’s, showing the imprint of three huge clawed toes, with trefoil marks like a lion’s pad where the sole of the foot pressed down. But no lion ever boasted such a paw as that of the monster which had made that terrifying spoor.” Karl Shuker’s Blog

The Nandi bear has been described as having five or six toes in various accounts over the last century as well. I believe that Dale Drinnon who has written extensively on the Nandi bear postulates that the six toed account is assumed to have been where the back feet stepped into an existing three-toed front track.

Various descriptions noted that the animal liked to sit back on its haunches, described it as bear-like (hence the name) having large feet and as being brown in color.

Photo: The interesting foot of the Naxian lion from the Delos Museum compared with the interesting rear foot of the chalicotherium.


Regarding the lions of Delos again; it can be clearly seen from the less damaged statues inside the museum that the lions have three toes on the front feet and very long rear feet, also with three long claws. This superficially at least matches the front feet and rear feet of chalicotherium.

We’ve shown here additional photographs comparing the feet of chalicotherium with those on the Delos lions-both front and rear as well as a number of photographs comparing the physiology, including the long front legs and sloping back.

Photo:A comparison of the three clawed front foot of chalicotherium with the front feet of the Delos, Naxian Lion.


I’ve gone back to look at the actual chalicotherium skeleton to see if a depiction of the living creature as long, slim bodied with a sloping back would also have been a realistic way to depict the creature notwithstanding all the thousands of versions of fat chalicos.

I’ve concluded that the skeleton does lend itself to the Delos, Terrace of Lions, chalicotherium which has closely matching front and back feet, the long front legs and the sloping back of the fossil chalicotherium. (See my admittedly unscientific juxtapostion photo above left.) Even the long hair (mane) of the statues fails to accurately depict the mane of a lion and does remind me of the long hair on certain sloths.

It appears that there is reason to connect the chalicotherium; a creature that supposedly became extinct 5-7 million years ago to the Naxian Lions at Delos. There appears to be some evidence that there is a connection between the Nandi bear of Kenya and Central Africa and the chalicotherium. The elongated bodies of the Naxian lions could be a match for the elongated bodies, and unusual feet of the chalicotherium which could aide in an affirmative identification and prove that chalicotherium was a “late survivor” and could even still be alive.

One More Mystery; Are They Telling the Truth About this Great Monument-or are They Still Lion? Filters On?


Sigiriya (Lion’s rock) Sri Lnkan Mega Site

“In 1831 Major Jonathan Forbes of the 78th Highlanders of the British army, while returning on horseback from a trip to Pollonnuruwa, came across the “bush covered summit of Sigiriya”. Sigiriya came to the attention of antiquarians and, later, archaeologists. Archaeological work at Sigiriya began on a small scale in the 1890s. H.C.P. Bell was the first archaeologist to conduct extensive research on Sigiriya. The Cultural Triangle Project, launched by the Government of Sri Lanka, focused its attention on Sigiriya in 1982. Archaeological work began on the entire city for the first time under this project. There was a sculpted lion’s head above the legs and paws flanking the entrance, but the head broke down many years ago”….Wikipedia
Sigiriya consists of an ancient castle built by King Kasiappan during the 5th century. The Sigiriya site has the remains of an upper palace sited on the flat top of the rock, a mid-level terrace that includes the Lion Gate and the mirror wall with its frescoes, the lower palace that clings to the slopes below the rock, and the moats, walls, and gardens that extend for some hundreds of metres out from the base of the rock.

The site is both a palace and a fortress. Despite its age, the splendor of the palace still furnishes a stunning insight into the ingenuity and creativity of its builders. The upper palace on the top of the rock includes cisterns cut into the rock that still retain water. The moats and walls that surround the lower palace are still exquisitely beautiful.

During Kassapa’s reign in the 5th century AD, a massive, 60-foot lion was chiseled out of the rock. The steps which continued up to the royal palace started at the lion’s feet, wrapped around his body and eventually entered his mouth. Today, all that remain are the paws, but they give a good idea of the statue’s scale. It’s hard to appreciate how impressive it must have been 1500 years ago. It would be impressive now.

The final flight of stairs, hugging tightly to the stone wall, is not for those who suffer from vertigo…Great Photos as the site of srilanka for 91days.com

Here is the mystery; the lion’s head has fallen down and that years ago. One of the most famous parts of the entire sight is the gigantic “lion’s Paws that begin the assent to the next level. But the paws rendered in great detail, are of a creature with three claws on each foot. Lions have five total claws on each front foot although one claw is a “thumb” that usually does not show in a foot print.


So, did someone take the time and input the engineering to construct a megalithic structure featuring a lion only to get the detail concerning the number of claws wrong? I’m even more amazed that no one seems to be questioning whether or not these are meant to be lion’s paws. People seem content just to accept the ID and to move on to the other incredible features of the site.

At least cryptozoologists ought to be asking about the three-clawed lion–if not biologists.

Seriously, is it even reasonable to suppose that the people who built this great monument intended it to represent a three toed lion? Even beyond the number of claws, go google lion claws, view the images and you will note that notwithstanding the actual number of claws–they are nothing like the claws of a lion. What creature, perhaps lion-like in demeanor could be confused with a depiction of a lion- and have three sharp claws on its front feet?

Well, certain dinosaurs might fit the bill–and of course there is the Naxian lion come chalicotherium….

–Comments to: s8intcom@comcast.net

When Scientists Find Evidence of Dinosaur Tracks and Human Habitation Together in China, Great Scientific Questions or Controversy Could Arise: Bring in the Folklorists and Begin the Mythologizing!

Church of Darwin, Dinosaurs in Literature, Giants in Those Days, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Nov 26 2012



In all reality is understandable why real scientists might want to bring in a folklorist to explain how humans and dinosaurs never lived together and to make sure that the evidence is cast in a way so as not to even bring that thought into consideration. That’s because most paleontological explanations concerning dinosaurs, man and the history of the planet is just plain folklore.

Adrienne Mayor came alongside science a few years ago by trying to explain away the incredible number of art artifacts that depict “griffins” with the same attributes and features across time and cultures. She thought it was because they all came across the same beaked ceratopsian skulls. (We believe them to be depictions of a certain type of pterosaur. See prior article on griffins.

Ok Mayor is also a “historian of ancient science”, bleeeh, and she connects the three-toed dinosaur tracks which are prolific at the location with the three lobed lotus flower etc. etc. No one is wondering if this site in fact might indicate that man and dinosaurs themselves interacted. They’ve changed the subject completely. They are so convinced that they are millions of years apart that such a conclusion is never even a possibility in their minds. Bring in the folklorist.

Where’s the evidence that man and dinosaur interacted evolutionsits ask, while immediately dismissing any actual or potential evidence that might so indicate as impossible. Au contraire here is one article posted here providing evidence of dinosaur and human interaction from inside the dinosaur.



Finally, here is a Chinese painting which provides pretty good evidence that the ancient Chinese encountered and interacted with real dinosaurs in the last several thousand years-and not just with their footprints. The painting is “Arhats (holy men) Ding Yunpeng. Ming dynasty, 1368 – 1644 B..C. Red and color on paper.” Shanghai Museum- and it is here compared with a bi-pedal “dragon” with the correct number of “fingers” and toes as well as head crest to be a depiction of the Guanlong dinosaur whose fossils have been found in China…s8intcom



The original painting and our article “Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaur Part 2 can be Read Here

World’s only evidence of co-existing humans, dinosaur tracks found in China
10-27-2011 CCTV.com from

BEIJING/CHONGQING, Oct. 16 (Xinhua) — A team of Chinese and American scientists have discovered the world’s only evidence of co-existing human beings and dinosaur tracks in a remote county in southwest China’s Chongqing Municipality, according to a paper published Saturday in the Geological Bulletin of China, a Chinese core academic journal.

Qijiang County’s Lianhua Baozhai, which means “Lotus Mountain Fortress” in Chinese, has a large number of dinosaur tracks as well as a well-preserved fortress and historical epigraph, forming a direct line of evidence that ancient Chinese people built a residence and lived there for a long time, said Xing Lida, one of three researchers with the project as well as a doctoral degree candidate with the Department of Biological Sciences of the University of Alberta in Canada.


Chinese people could have lived here for more than 700 years, and the mud cracks, ripple marks and duck-billed dinosaur tracks were considered by them to be lotus leaf veins, water environment and lotus, respectively, which is why they named it the Lotus Mountain Fortress, Xing Lida told Xinhua.

“Research shows that dinosaur tracks impacted ancient Chinese place names and folklore, so place names and folklore can be major clues for us in tracing dinosaur tracks,” Xing said.

According to the paper, the Lotus Mountain Fortress dinosaur tracks, the largest track group of cretaceous dinosaurs in southwestern China, contains 350 to 400 footprints that had been preserved in many ways, including concave footprints, convex footprints and multilayered footprints.

“We found a lot of interesting relics that had been associated with lotus by local residents. The ripple marks, mud cracks and duck-billed dinosaur tracks had created a picture of a lotus field, and lead to the folklore of ‘booming golden lotus from the earth,’” he said.

Chen Yu, another researcher with the project as well as an archaeologist with the Capital Museum in Beijing, said the region had been a transport hub for China and other Asian countries, where Buddhism thrived.

“The religion has a special worship towards lotus, which symbolizes peace and quiet. This is another reason for the residents to name the place for the flower, seeking blessing from the Buddha,” Chen said.

Qijiang County was located in what, historically, was a frontier area, and had endured wars at that time. The Lotus Mountain Fortress had been a safe hiding place since the Han Dynasty (202 BC- 220 AD), according to the epigraphy of various dynasties, she said.

Adrienne Mayor, the third researcher with the project as well as a historian of ancient science and a classical folklorist with Stanford University in the United States, said the case of the Lotus Mountain Fortress proves that dinosaur tracks had impacted ancient Chinese folklore, which could provide clues for seeking other tracks.

The fortress’ 700 years of history is a rarity in the world, and reflects China’s traditional philosophy of the relationship between humans and nature, she said.

Video Link

Pueblo Peoples Ancient Dinosaur Petroglyph Photographed in New Mexico?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Oct 24 2012


A few days ago I received a note from Jeremy Springfield who was in New Mexico on a kind of archaeological mission when he came across an apparently “ancient” petroglyph of a long necked dinosaur. His note follows but I was curious as to whether or not the fossils of long necked sauropods or similar dinosaurs had been found in New Mexico.

As it turns out New Mexico is one of the geographical areas in the U.S. where the highest number and diversity of dinosaur fossils is found, no doubt due to the desert like climate and lack of anything else to do but to dig. Sauropod fossils including some of the largest ever found have been discovered in New Mexico.

Coincidentally perhaps, one of the first images I came across with respect to New Mexico Dimosaurs was a depiction on the New Museum of Natural History and Science’s website depicting seismosaurus- in a pose that looks quite similar to the petroglyph. That comparison is shown below within Jeremy’s note-but first a bit on sauropods in New Mexico…. s8int.com

From About.com

“Any state with as many dinosaur fossils as New Mexico is sure to yield the remains of at least a few sauropods (giant, long-necked, elephant-legged plant eaters). Diplodocus and Camarasaurus were first identified elsewhere in the U.S., but the first specimen of the 30-ton Alamosaurus was discovered in New Mexico and named after this state’s Ojo Alamo formation.”

From New Mexico Museum of Natural History

New Mexico Super Giants – part of Dinosaur Century only at the New Mexico Museum of Natural History & Science

ALBUQUERQUE, NM – April 12, 2012 -In the small village of San Ysidro, near Cuba, NM, one of the longest dinosaurs that ever walked the Earth was discovered. His name is Camarasaurus, he measures 55 feet long and is April’s featured dinosaur as part of the New Mexico Museum of Natural History & Science Dinosaur Century Exhibit.

THE DISCOVERIES:

1979—Seismosaurus discovered

In 1979, Arthur Loy and Jan Cummings were hiking in the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) area called the Ojito, northwest of Albuquerque. Loy spotted the large bones first and casually called to his friend, “Come see what you make of this.” Cummings recalls the event: “I instantly recognized from thirty feet the obvious vertebrae of a large dinosaur. The articulated vertebral column looked like a huge chicken neck laying half in and half out of sandstone.”

For fear of the precious fossils being vandalized, Cummings and Loy kept their find secret, only sharing it with a small group of friends. In 1985, with increased recreational activity in the Ojito, they reported their awesome find to the BLM and the newly-established New Mexico Museum of Natural History. Excavation by a Museum crew led by then Curator of Paleontology David Gillette uncovered the partial skeleton of a huge new sauropod, later named Seismosaurus (“[earth]-shaking lizard”), one of the longest dinosaurs in the world, with a full body length of 110 feet.’

Possible Pueblo Culture Dinosaur Petroglyph Photographed in New Mexico Copy Right 2012 by Jeremy Springfield



Photo: Jeremy Springfield’s cropped photo compared with drawing of Seismosauras from New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science

On a trip to Hidden Mountain, just outside of Los Lunas, New Mexico, on October 20th, 2012, I took pictures of what is possibly a dinosaur figure petroglyph. This is found on a mesa about 16 miles west of Los Lunas, and requires more than a mile’s hike just to reach the foot of the mesa. The mesa contains scattered Native American art, contemporary defacements from the rare inconsiderate visitors, as well as evidence of ancient Hebrew visitation (definitely non-Mormon, FYI), and ancient scattered ruins / shelters on the summit.

The attached photos were taken on the south-facing ridge of the mesa’s summit, about 20 feet down from the ridge itself. The stone itself is quite protected from defacements and contemporary “tags” due to its difficult to reach location, which is only accessible by a perilous ledge some 14 inches wide that drops to a steep and deadly slope to the foothills some 400+ feet below.

I went for a day’s trip to photograph and film the area due to the ancient Hebrew decalogue stone that is on the mesa, and an apparant “star chart” dating to B.C. that is also found on the northern face of the summit. I was not expecting to see anything saurian in nature by way of petraglyphs.

I do not know if that is indeed the case, but please consider the animal depicted to the left of the saurian-like creature.

It definitely does not look saurian in nature, providing a great contrast. On a stone just to the right of the one with the saurian-like image is found the very deer-like animal — which was the reason for my initial decision to brave the very dangerous ledge to photograph it. I could not see the saurian image from my original vantage point, so I was surprised when I got out to the deer-image and looked to the left.

This is near the Isleta Indian Reservation, home of the Tewa Indians. I have no idea if they have any art or mythology concerning any creatures that could be considered saurian in nature.

Anyhow, I present these to you for consideration. Thanks for your time and may your efforts to promote the truth find favor with God and man. Jeremy Springfield Oct. 23, 2012

Other Native American Dinosaur Petroglyphs

Thanks Jeremy for sending that along to us. Very Interesting! of course we have had quite a number of prior posts indicating that the indigenous people of the Americas were familair with dinosaurs including:

Did Ancient Americans Ride the Parasaurolophus Dinosaur or Did They Just Exaggerate the Size of Their Sheep? featuring a petroglyph from the
Annual report of the Bureau of American Ethnology to the secretary…..1886.

this petroglyph clearly shows the ancient men riding the backs of huge animals and the glyph apparently includes a ladder for the purposes of climbing aboard.

10,000 Individual Centrosaurus Fossils Buried at Dinosaur Park
Were All Ceratopsians Destroyed Except Those on the Ark?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, The Flood of Noah | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 20 2012


by Chris Parker, Copyright 2012

“Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days”….Genesis 7

       

In a 2001 article in Palaios entitled “The Taphonomy of a Centrosaurus (Omithischia:Certopsidae) Bone Bed from the Dinosaur Park Formation (Upper Campanian), Alberta, Canada, with Comments on Cranial Ontogeny”, authors MICHAEL J. RYAN and ANTHONY P. RUSSELL of the University of Calgary and David Eberth and Philip Currie of the Royal Tyrell Museum of Palaeontology attempt to come to grips with a huge fossil graveyard made up almost entirely of the remains of potentially thousands of Centrosaurus apertus, individuals who apparently died simultaneously as the result of some ancient catastrophe. Centrosaurus was considered a “medium sized” dinosaur with an average size of between 18 to 20 feet (6 meters) bearing a single, large horn over its nose.

In the past science has visited this location in Alberta, in terms of scientists and of scientific studies but much of the prior research about the dinosaur fossils there was centered on how finding these fossil herds informed science about the social behaviors of cerotopsian dinosaurs and dinosaurs in general. In this article, the authors focus more on the taphonomy of the formation and the events leading up to fossil deposition at the site.

Taphonomy is the study of decaying organisms over time and how they become fossilized (if they do). The term taphonomy (from the Greek taphos -meaning burial, and nomos – meaning law) was introduced to paleontology in 1940 by Russian scientist Ivan Efremov to describe the study of the transition of remains, parts, or products of organisms, from the biosphere, to the lithosphere, i.e. the creation of fossil assemblages….Wikipedia

What do the authors surmise happened to these dinosaurs? And, what do they suppose is the most likely way that fossils are created-especially a site where thousands of such fossils created at the same time? Do the authors believe that the huge numbers of fossilized individuals found there died as a result of some catastrophe or that that fossils were accumulated by some means over a long period of time?

Those answers in a moment but I want to mention that as extraordinary as the Dinosaur Park Bone Bed is, it is not the first huge dinosaur graveyard to be discovered on this planet that would cause such questions to be raised. For example there are an estimated 800 billion fossils at the Karoo Supergroup in South Africa. There were so many fossils estimated to be there that many initially “creationists” worried that the estimate might be too high to fit the Genesis flood theory. Now everyone more or less agrees that there are upwards of 800 billion veterbrate fossils buried there.

“Massive fossil graveyards of dinosaurs still exist all over the world. The Morrison beds in North America, the dinosaur beds in Montana, in the Rocky Mountains, in Alberta, the Dakotas, China, Colorado, Utah, Africa, etc., etc., contain literally millions of dinosaur fossils piled together in tremendous heaps. Ten thousand Hadrosaurs were found on Egg Mountain, Monatana alone, jumbled together in what appears to have been a mass death.” Darwin Papers, James Foard

That represents a very short list of the dinosaur and fossil bone beds found around the world. For instance, another bone bed, the Sicilian “hippopotamus beds” are so extensive that they are mined as a source of charcoal.

This is what one might expect if one had read and believed the Genesis account of the great flood but it is more problematic for the science of the current paradigm which favors uniformatism over catastrophism in explaining the history of the planet.

There is yet at least one other issue related to dinosaur and mammalian fossils that scientists are loathe to discuss out there in the public where Bible believers might see it. That is the fact that; dinosaurs died agonizing deaths!

An article in LiveScience, June 2007 provides some details.

“Fossilized dinosaurs often have wide-open mouths, heads thrown back and tails that curve toward the head. Paleontologists have long assumed the dinosaurs died in water and the currents drifted the bones into that position, or that rigor mortis or drying muscles, tendons and ligaments contorted the limbs.”

Asphyxiation is the cause claims a veterinarian who studied many of the fossils. Of course, asphyxiation is consistent with drowning.

Conclusions reached in the lead article regarding the taphonomy of the Alberta, Canada Dinosaur Park Formation:

Cause of death: The bone bed is dominated by the disarticulated, mostly fragmentary and slightly abraded remains of Centrosaurus apertus, with minor occurrences of other taxa, notably teeth from the large tyrannosaurid Albertosaurus libratus. Fossils occur in a stacked to amalgamated succession of lag deposits, deposited and reworked at the erosional base of a paleochannel. The most parsomonious scenario suggests that Centrosaurus material represents part of a large aggregation of animals (possibly numbering in the thousands) that died by drowning on the alluvial plain.

Catastrophy or Fossils Deposited Over Time: “This site may represent an upriver accumulation of the same centrosaur material in BB 43. If these two sites are part of the same bone bed then the original number of dead centrosaurs may have numbered in the tens of thousands. The data presented in this study support a catastrophic death for the original Centrosaurus assemblage. The low diversity assemblage with an almost uniform taphonomic signature suggests that a large group of one species was killed in one place at the same time, then disarticulated and transported to their final resting place very quickly, probably in under a few years.”

Most Likely Cause of Fossillization of Entire Herd: “Kurten (1952) points out that while mass deaths do occur, they are fairly rare. Behrensmeyer (1975) suggests that it is the exception (drowning) that usually produces a fossil, while “normal” life habits leave little or no fossil evidence. Given the rarity of fossilization, it would seem like ly that the record of a mass death would best be preserved if it was tied to a specific instance that increased the chances of fossilization, such as in a mass death by drowning.”

The Bible is not a “scientific” book. When Christians endeavor to explain biblical events scientifically, we leave the inerrancy of the Bible and in many ways become subject to the same errors as secular scientists who try to explain the history of this planet scientifically.

What we can say is that given our belief in a worldwide flood exactly as described in Genesis, the fact that huge fossil bone beds have been discovered around the world, and given the unique way fossils are formed (in water) and acknowledging the further fact that many of these animals died of asphyxiation we believe that the Genesis account of a great, worldwide flood is strongly supported by the data.

Amen.

See Also crypto-zoo-archaeological mysteries challenge conventional histories; the ceratopsian dinosaur and the elephant in ancient South-America

Crypto-Zoo-Archaeological Mysteries Challenge Conventional Histories. The Ceratopsian Dinosaur and the Elephant in Ancient South America?

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Sophistication of Ancestors, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 06 2012


by Chris Parker, Copyright 2012

Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox. What strength it has in its loins, what power in the muscles of its belly! Its tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of its thighs are close-knit. Its bones are tubes of bronze, its limbs like rods of iron. It ranks first among the works of God…Job 40

 

 

Ceratopsian Dinosaurs in Ancient South America?

Evidence indicating the historical presence of ceratopsian dinosaurs in South America within the last 1,000 years would be controversial for at least two reasons; one, ceratopsian dinosaurs are thought by modern science to have been extinct for 65 million years and two, science at most only recognizes the presence of one type of ceratopsian dinosaur on that entire continent.

Ceratopsian dinosaurs were, vegetarian, quadruped, frilled and horned dinosaurs whose fossils have been found primarily in North America, Asia and Europe. Incidentally, they also had tails like a cedar; Certainly much thicker than that of the hippo which some believe is described in the book of Job.

Unusual identifying features for this dinosaur include the rostral bone which gives its face a beak like appearance and the jugal bones which scientists most often depict as bones protruding from the side of the animals face. Ceratopsia is derived from the Greek for “horned face”.

Only one species has been identified from fossils in South America, Notoceratops and the scant fossils upon which that tentative identification was based have since been lost.

There is however a narrow strip of land between North and South America called the Isthmus of Panama, known in the past as the Isthmus of Darien, containing the country of Panama and the Panama Canal. According to current scientific belief, that land bridge was formed three million years ago, after the extinction of the dinosaurs.

Artifacts indicating that ceratopsian dinosaurs were living as the same time as man on the continent of South America would: call into question the entire evolutionary/materialistic time frame for evolution and the extinction of dinosaurs; prove that ceratopsians also lived on the Southern continent and calling into question the supposed timing of the formation of the Isthumus of Panama; provide an answer to the question that paleontologists have been debating as to whether or not ceratopsians had “cheeks” which covered their jugal bone formations or whether they were “cheekless” having the bones protrude as horns and/or some type of defense mechanism.

If ceratopsians indeed had cheeks which covered the jutting jugal bone they certainly would have a wide, almost smiling mien which would differ signifcantly from the way modern science now depicts them. If there are multiple South American artifacts indicating the presence of ceratopsians in South America, then why haven’t more fossils of the dinosaurs been found?

A Startling Artifact Depicting a South American, Short Frilled, Vegetable Eating Ceratopsian?


“The ceratopsians are largely subdivided into two groups: the long-frilled and the short-frilled dinosaurs. Largely identical to each other – short but powerful legs, robust bodies, tortoise beak-like jaws and a varied number of horns – they had either a shorter, more plain frill with smaller openings that didn’t extend beyond the dinosaur’s neck and shoulders (the short-frilled dinosaurs) or a longer frill with larger internal openings that extended further beyond the shoulders, occasionally possessing spikes of various length on its end.”…Walking with Dinosaurs Wikia.com

Ecuador is engaged in the process of “repatriating” 5,000 pre Columbian artifacts from Ecuador’s historic past which have been obtained either legally or illegally and which have been scattered around the world to museums and private collections. Recently elements of the Ecuadorian government sued to stop an international auction featuring a number of pre Columbian artifacts that they allege are from Ecuador. In turn, several auction have sued Ecuador claiming that the artifacts were obtained legally.

The artifact shown above right was among the objects for which Ecuador seeks a return. This pre Columbian artifact from ancient Ecuador appears to depict one of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs. It has a short frill and is depicted eating vegetation.


From the angle of the photo, the rostral bone depiction is not strong but still evident as the middle of the mouth is closer to the observer. In terms of cheeks vs no cheeks the artist came down firmly on the cheek school, depicting the cheeks totally subsuming the jugal bones on the side of the face giving the animal a wide, “grinning” mouth.

There is another visible feature in this depiction which although not dispositive of all other theories would tend to support the identification of the creature as a ceretopsian—or else cast some doubt.

That’s right! I’m talking about the creatures toes. See the photo above, right. The artist clearly depicts this animal as having five toes on the front feet (manus). But, what have paleontologists found with respect to the manus and pes (forefeet and hindfeet) of the short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaurs?

Among the short frilled ceratopsians were; protoceratops, monoceratops, leptoceratops and centrosaurus. The diagram represents one of centrosaurus’s forefeet.


“McCrea also conceded that some ceratopsians had five toes on the forefoot and four toes on the hindfoot and therefore would also be capable of leaving similar footprints.] The best known ceratopsians were known from strata more recent than that which preserved Tetrapodosaurus, however more recent discoveries have pushed the age range of ceratopsians back into ages comparable to that of Tetrapodosaurus. Nevertheless, McCrea supported the ankylosaur interpretation”…… Wikipedia on the question of who left the Abyssal/Gates tracks


“Protoceratops held its head low for grazing, using its parrotlike beak to snip off low leaves, which were swallowed whole, since the teeth were of no use for chewing. Its front feet had five toes” Quote Source

In short, we have a pre Columbian depiction of a possible short frilled, ceratopsian dinosaur some 65 million years after their extinction according to the current scientific paradigm, eating vegetation (what mythical dragons eat vegetation), with the requisite number of toes/fingers potentially answering a question regarding cheeks that has been argued for some time.

But is this a one off?

Corroborating South American Ceratopsia Depictions?

According to wikipedia, the name Ceratopsia was coined by Othniel Charles Marsh in 1890 to include dinosaurs possessing certain characteristic features, including horns, a rostral bone, teeth with two roots, fused neck vertebrae, and a forward-oriented pubis.

Two years prior to that, in 1888, Popular Science Monthly had an interesting article on whistles entitled, “Whistles, Ancient and Modern” by M. L. Gutode.

In the passage describing the artifact we want to examine he writes: “Seeing that so much can be done with such rude means, it is not strange that the whistle was a well-known instrument in antiquity. The old Peruvians were past masters in the fabrication of whistles.

They made them in great numbers, of earth, and ornamented with various designs and figures of animals. The porcelain-factory at Sèvres (Fig. 1) possesses two specimens of their workmanship, one of which resembles a nightingale; and, when filled with water, it produces a kind of warbling. There is an instrumental museum at the Paris Conservatory of Music, which is open to the public on Thursday afternoons.

It was founded by Clapisson, and in the beginning consisted only of a single collection — of whistles. This was, moreover, a most curious collection, comprising whistles of all ages and all countries, of terra-cotta, copper, ivory, hard stone, etc., some of which were.”


FIG. 1.?—?ANCIENT PERUVIAN EARTHEN WHISTLES. Nos. 1 and 2, figure of an animal, in face and in profile. No. 3. another form (From specimens in the Sèvres Museum.)

remarkable as specimens of invention and workmanship. Unfortunately, this collection was scattered to the winds at an auction-sale twenty years ago, and the conservatory has not preserved any part of it ; but there are still a great many curiosities in the instrumental museum — serpents in the most distressing shapes, horns and trumpets of crystal, flutes of porcelain, fiddles of faience, Alpine horns, a bassoon of such extraordinary adjustment that it is a day’s work to dismount it; and many other most curious contrivances for producing melodies and accompaniments.”… Popular Science Monthly at Wikipedia

Wouldn’t you be curious to see some of those “serpents in the most distressing shapes”?
Mr. Gutode suggests that the depiction on the far left is of a nightingale but keeping in mind that the ceratopsian order had not yet been named its no wonder that he didn’t consider a short frilled ceratopsian dinosaur. However, I think that’s a better identification than the nightingale.


From this view of the whistle we can see the beak caused by the placement of the rostral bone and as well we see the wide mouth caused by the interior jugal bones on each side of the head. We offer some head shots of modern short frilled ceratopsians for comparison sake.

Photo: Leptoceratops top left and bottom left, protceratops, bottom right.It’s worth noting that Ecuador, the source of our first artifact is only about 750 miles from Panama and the land Bridge between North and South America and that Peru, the source of this artifact, shares a border with Ecuador.
 

 

Bird-Headed Figure Whistle, 8th or 9th century Mexico, Veracruz

Finally, on our brief survey of pre Columbian artfacts depicting ceratopsian dinosaurs is this interesting artifact. The Metropolitan Museum of New York has a ceramic piece in its collection which it describes as bird-headed. It’s a ceramic 20.25 inches high, a part of the Michael C. Rockeller Memorial Collection donated to the museum in 1963.

The artifact is pre Columbian dated to the 8th 0r 9th century A.D. from Veracruz, Mexico.



The head features a bird-like beak and indications of the rostral bone characteristic of ceratopsians. It has a short frill, and has cheeks wide enough to accommodate the jugal hornlike facial projections also a characteristic of ceratopsian dinosaurs.

 

 

 

 

Crypto-Zoo-Archaelological Indications of Elephants in Pre Columbian South America

In viewing this artifact and while reading these pieces on elephants in South America it is important to realize that many female elephants do not have tusks and that tusklessness occurs in male elephants as well.

Science seems to be fragmented on the idea of elephants in the Americas in recent times but will allow elephants down to 10,000 years ago in South America. The problem is, there is evidence of their existence here in North America and in South America as well within the last 1,000 years or even later.

A species of ungulate believed to be ancestral to elephants and which supposedly became extinct more than 23 million year s ago is a possible answer to a question raised by a pre Columbian artifact presumably depicting some type of local fauna.

Recent Survival Of The Elephant In The Americas William Corliss, Science Frontiers OnLine
No. 68: Mar-Apr 1990


Photo:Mayan “elephant motif”.

“Elephants were supposed to have disappeared from the America about 10,000 years ago as the Ice Ages waned. This date is another of those “consensus” scientific facts that no one dares challenge if he or she wishes to get published or win research grants. Although this subject remains “closed off” in normal scientific intercourse, there remain tantalizing hints that elephants roamed the Americas until very recently – perhaps even a few hundred years ago!

The following snippets are culled from two articles written by G. Carter, Texas A&M, now emeritus, but always heretical:

1. Numerous folk memories of the elephamt were retained by American Indians.
2. A mastadon was killed, cooked, and eaten by humans in Ecuador circa 1500 BC.
3. Indians told Thomas Jefferson that elephants could still be seen in the region of the Great Lakes.
4. In Florida, a cache of extinct animals, including elephants, was carbon-dated at 2000 BP.
5. Elephant heads are prominent in art and sculpture from Mexico, Central American, and northern South America.

(Carter, George F.; “A Note on the Elephant in America,” and “The Mammoth in American Epigraphy,” Epigraphic Society, Occasional Publications, 18:90 and 18:213, 1989.) ‘

Sitchin’s Elephant


An Elephant Among the Wheels“Jalapa, a gem of a town, is about two hours’ drive from Veracruz (where the Spanish Conquistador Hernan Cortes landed in 1519).

Its museum is undoubtedly second only to the famed one in Mexico City; but unlike Mexico City’s which displays artifacts from all over the country, the Jalapa one exhibits only locally discovered artifacts — predominantly Olmec ones.

Dramatically and effectively displayed in an innovative setting, the Museum boasts several colossal stone heads as well as other stone sculptures. It also displays smaller objects found at Olmec sites; among them, in special display showcases, are what are considered to be Olmec “toys.” They include animals mounted on wheels — a visual and evidentiary negation of the common claim that the people of Mesoamerica (and America in general) were unfamiliar with the wheel.

And included in the same display case were elephants — “toys” made of clay.

Gone – Where and Why? I, and some of my fans who accompanied me, saw them on previous visits to the Museum.
BUT when I (and again some of my fans with me) was there recently — in December 1999 — the elephants were nowhere in sight!

I could find no one in authority to obtain an explanation from. But that the elephants were once there was a fact indeed, here is a photograph of one, shot on a previous visit:

Now, here is the significance of this small artifact: There are no, and never have been, elephants in the Americas. There are and have been elephants in Africa. And a depiction of an elephant could have been made only by someone who has seen an elephant, i.e. someone who has been to Africa!”

 
Aspire Auction Pre Columbian Coati Muni—Or Elephant?


Recently an auction house specializing in ancient artifacts had this pre Columbian artifact for sale at one of its auctions.
Just for information purposes it eventually sold for $161 dollars which is the kind of price you’re going to realize if your ancient artifact looks like a dinosaur or even, God forbid an elephant which is out of time and place.

 


I would tend to believe that an actual depiction of a pre Columbian coati mundi would have fetched more.

The artifact is small; approximately 4 x 5 x 3.5 inches and is described as a “ Pre-Columbian Coati Mundi Head Fragment “., The piece is terracotta and hollow and is further described by the auction house as having “slit eyes” and an “extended nose”..

 



The South American Coati Mundi is a relative of the raccoon and is common in South America. It is also known as the Quati. Their coloration is variable. Unfortunately, coatis don’t have the nose or the ears for this artifact. One is pictured here along with a front view of the artifact.

 

 

 

Pyrotherium, another possibility over coati mundi?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pyrotherium (‘fire beast’) is an extinct genus of South American ungulate, of the order Pyrotheria, that lived in what is now Argentina, during the Early Oligocene.(between 43 annd 23 million years ago) It was named “Fire Beast” because the first specimens were excavated from an ancient volcanic ashfall.

The vaguely elephant-like Pyrotherium was 3 m (10 ft) long and 1.50 m (5 ft) tall at the shoulders, with a weight up to 3500 kg (3.85 tons). Its heavy body was carried by robust legs. Pyrotherium also had a short trunk on its snout, and two pairs of flat, forward-facing tusks in the upper jaw, with a single pair in the lower jaw.


Photo: Left, Restoration of the head by Robert Bruce HorsfallPossible South American descendants of the xenungulates, the complete study of the tarsus of Pyrotherium fails to support this relationship. In one study, derived characters were not seen in any mammal examined except the embrithopod Arsinoitherium from the Tertiary of Africa.[3] Whether this is due to common ancestry, or to the unusual mode of locomotion used by these animals (graviportal and plantigrade) remains to be seen.”

Were there elephants and/or elephants related to elephants in South America within the last 1,000 years? The artifacts say yes but science says no. Will science carry by labeling trunked animal depictions as coati mundi with extended ears and noses or as macaws as some label the Mayan “elephant”.

Perhaps they can maintain their illusions and their evolutionary allusions if they have enough Darwinsitic faith.

See Also:Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part I

Crouching Dragon, Hdden Dinosaurs: How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction Part II

Best Nessie Photo Ever? Maybe. But Nahuelito Takes Best Closeup Seamonster Photos Ever

Church of Darwin, Crypto, Dinosaurs in Literature, s8int.com, Science, Unexplained Artifact | Posted by Chris Parker
Aug 03 2012


By Matt Blake
Mail Online

•George Edwards has hunted Nessie for 26 years and holds tours of the Loch

•He even says image was verified by team of US military monster experts
•A Nessie sighting specialist has backed his claims, adding: ‘It proves Nessie is definitely NOT a sturgeon’

He has dedicated more than two decades of his life to the hunt for the elusive Loch Ness monster, spending 60 hours a week on the water.

And now George Edwards believes he has finally fulfilled his ambition of spotting ‘Nessie’; he even photographic evidence to prove it.

Mr Edwards, who has spent 26 years on his quest, managed to capture this image of a dark hump slinking in and out of the lake’s waters from the deck of his boat, Nessie Hunter, before it vanished back into the deep.
He claims the picture is the best-ever taken of the Loch Ness Monster and proves once and for all that the elusive leviathan exists – and is definitely not a sturgeon.

He says he has even had it independently verified by a team of US military monster experts as well as a Nessie sighting specialist.

Mr Edwards spends his life on the loch – around 60 hours a week – taking tourists out on his boat Nessie Hunter IV, and has led numerous Nessie hunts over the years.

‘I was just about to return to Temple Pier (in Drumnadrochit) and I went to the back of the boat which was facing the pier and that’s when I saw it,’ said 60-year-old Mr Edwards, a lifelong believer in the monster.

‘It was slowly moving up the loch towards Urquhart Castle and it was a dark grey colour. It was quite a fair way from the boat, probably about half a mile away but it’s difficult to tell in water.’

After watching the object for five to ten minutes, Mr Edwards said it slowly sank below the surface and never resurfaced.
‘I’m convinced I was seeing Nessie as I believe in these creatures. Far too many people have being seeing them for far too long,’ he said.

A close up of the Photo and the remaining portion of the article can be found Here at the original source

 
Nahuelito, Nessie’s Latin Cousin Takes a Better Photo?

However convincing this photo is, it is not as good or clear as is the photo of Nahuelito that appeared in the Matutinal Rionegrino of Cordillerano, an Argentinian newspaper in January, 2009. Like Nessie, Nahuelito is a lake monster that has been seen for many, many years by hundreds of witnesses although its actual existence as a “monster” is still in doubt.

From the 2009 article, translated from Spanish:

Is this “ The Nahuelito ”?

A man sent this photograph to a newspaper in Bariloche and sowed again some doubt about the real existence of this “mythical” animal. This time, the image was captured on Lake Mascardi.

The images published yesterday in the Matutinal Rionegrino of Cordillerano show an animal similar to a snake that appears on the surface of the water.

“ I was thinking that they were otters, when I saw it rotating below the surface of the water, but when it began to show itself again I taken by surprise. It looked a little like a creature that I had seen earlier, and we were afraid of it when it reappeared, reported the reader who sent the photograph in to the newspaper.

Our Nahuelito article can be found Here.

Prior Nahuelito Articles with Nessie Besting Photos Here